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Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
10th November 2006, 13:48
Politically, many people I know believe the Democrats have good intentions and can accomplish things. The rest of them think the Democrats are just better than the Republicans and are, at least, moving in the right direction.

Before I was a communist, I would've agreed with them. Now I hear rumors about more troops going into Iraq and Democrats arguing that they "can't just leave now." That's convenient. You get to say you were against the war and still continue it.

Meanwhile, a female speaker and Rumsfeld's resignation are shrouding the farce that is the U.S. political system. Maybe I am being cynical, maybe not. Reformists say the Democrats are better. Revolutionaries often advocate reformism alongside revolutionary politics.

Well, we have the "better" party. Where's the change?

beabuenosaires
10th November 2006, 13:56
Change takes time. I cannot predict how things will change now that the Democrats are in power, but I am confident in saying that between Dems and Republicans, the Democrats are the lesser of the evils. Also, I read this on my friend's site the other day, and maybe this will lift some spirits: The senator that Vermont elected is a registered independent- but a self-proclaimed Socialist. I think that's fabulous. I know it's just a small thing, but I think that's great.

bcbm
10th November 2006, 18:41
Obviously nothing of any substance will change. At best, stem cell research and abortion will be protected from the onslaught of the bible-thumpers a bit longer, but that's about the only meaningful thing. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Listening to the democrats and others (who should know better!) talk as if this means something (I've heard the phrase "a new era") makes me wonder if their historical memory stretches back to the last time the democrats were in power and, uh, things weren't much better. Hmm.



the Democrats are the lesser of the evils

What are you basing that on? They're just as tied to corporate power, just as prone to neo-imperialism via the various "free trade" agreements and organizations, not to mention armed military conflict and, speaking of which, they have probably been responsible for more deaths through military conflict in the name of US imperialism than have the Republicans in the past century. They're also a lot better at masking their pushes towards more power for the state than the Republicans. Both parties are absolutely fucked.

( R )evolution
10th November 2006, 18:59
America is a 1 party state, nothing big will change and the demoracts, just as the republicans, will contuine to help serve & secure the rich and the opperrsion of the poor and the workers will contuine.

Tekun
10th November 2006, 23:15
And we're gonna be waiting for a very long time
Don't expect help from others, let's help ourselves


The senator that Vermont elected is a registered independent- but a self-proclaimed Socialist. I think that's fabulous. I know it's just a small thing, but I think that's great.

He's a democratic socialist, that refuses to threaten capitalism or upper class hegemony
He opposes "unfettered" free trade, what does that mean, he wants capitalism to be a lil more humane, whatever that means :lol:
Sanders is a so-called socialist with leanings towards the Democratic party
The Democrats have publicly endorsed and supported this "socialist" on a number of occasions
He's been in congress since 91, has anything changed or been on the road to change? No
This man is not representative of the working class, plus what the hell would he be able to do in a plutocracy?
No change whatsoever

Guns of Brixton
10th November 2006, 23:27
but I am confident in saying that between Dems and Republicans, the Democrats are the lesser of the evils.


nothing of any substance will change

I think both statements are wrong. (unless you interpret "substance" so narrowly as to mean rule of the capitalist class).

I think that we are on the verge of change. The US empire will not accept defeat in Iraq. The consolidation of their resolve to change policy coincides with the election. The democrats will spearhead a united effort by all factions of the ruling class for a big change FOR THE WORSE.

It is not that the democrats are worse than the republicans, but, the empire is in a multi-facited crisis, the freedom of the ruling class is restricted and the policy represented by the democratic party will largely be implemented.

Listen to what the leading democrats say! That policy is: Do what is necessary to win the war! That means INCREASED troops and expendetures.

Liberal illusions about the lesser of two evils are about to be shattered for many people.

Is a more determined and reality-based prosecution of imperialist war a "lesser evil" than a ill managed and fantasy-based war effort?

drain.you
11th November 2006, 02:02
Hmmm...of course there won't be a dramatic change. At the best, we can have things getting awkard for Bush, legislation not getting passed and such. Might protect you from the harsher of the republican ideas but remember that they are the same shit. upper class shites with capitalist values.

which doctor
11th November 2006, 02:06
I suggest some of you read my latest blog post (http://callmeanxious.wordpress.com/2006/11/05/the-two-party-system-in-the-us/) about the so called "democratic" government in America.

:)

Tekun
11th November 2006, 09:35
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 02:06 am
I suggest some of you read my latest blog post (http://callmeanxious.wordpress.com/2006/11/05/the-two-party-system-in-the-us/) about the so called "democratic" government in America.

:)
Short, concise, and to the point...like it

Nilats
11th November 2006, 15:41
It is clear we need a change - by that I mean a real change. It is apparent that none of the major parties represent working class interests. What is more, it is also apparent that none of the "revolutionary" ones have gained a mass following.

It's time for a new party and a new fresh leadership with new ideas to be formed.

Enragé
11th November 2006, 15:52
a fresh leadership - just like the old one

ni maître, ni dieu!

Guns of Brixton
12th November 2006, 02:03
Is anybody else bored by declarations of understanding that the capitalist parties are, indeed, capitalist parties?

I'd like to hear some deeper analysis. This is a revolutionary forum. I know that there are a few reformists on this board, but can't we get past that and engage in deeper class analysis among revolutionaries?

It is a capitalist election and its significance is in what it tells us about the status of the capitalist class. The election wasn't just something that "happened". It seemed to me, for example, that the slant coming out of CNN was different (more critical of bush and supportive of the democrats) than before the other elections. The entire news/entertainment superstructure, in a whole bunch of subtle ways, seemed to sleant and bend differently. Didn't others see that? Why were the neo-conservatives, this time, unable to manipulate and steal the election (as, from all appearances they did in Ohio and florida in previous elections?

The US ruling class has factions and conflicts. Different factions of capital are in conflict with each other. And they have different policies about how best to represent the interests of the empire and of their own capital group within it. It seems to me that the conflict between the democratic and republican parties in the US is one of the main forms that the struggle between these factions is played out.

The US ruling class is in crisis and, in many ways, that crisis was expressed in the recent election. The victory of the democratic party represents and signals a change of policy and, it seems, a new alliance of key factions on a new policy.

These factions have shown great animosity to each other in the past. Will they be able to maintain their alliance and move forward in relative harmony? Or will their differences come to the fore?

I expect their alliance to hold because, very pragmatically their need is great - the neoconservative leadership and policy has proven itself to be too crude and unsophisticated to lead by itself. The neo-conservatives are having too many failures and leading their policies are doing too much obvious damage to the empire. The classic neo-liberals, with their more nuanced and sophisticated view face renewed credibility in the face of the failures of the neo-conservatives. I expect that both groups will come to the fore at different times for the foreseeable future, but for now, the neo-liberals are on the ascendency.

It seems to me that the ruling class is facing some tough issues that are forcing their hand:

1. The economy is very fragile and weak. It is way too pumped up on debt and easy credit. It is facing a classic imperialist crisis, especially in the financial realm.

2. The US is facing increasing competition from other (much weaker) imperialist and pressure from maneuvering capitalist blocks (even from within its current imperialist realm) looking to capitalize on its weaknesses.

3. the US ruling class is committed to the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan but will have to pay a high price to continue in the face of a growing resistance ready to explode. And, importantly, no faction seems to have a clear and confident plan for how to attain victory.

If their alliance holds, I would expect something like this:

1. A more aggressive prosecution of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But it must spiral out of control in the face of, what I expect is soon to be, a determined and massive liberation movement.
2. A radicalization of a small portion of the "left" wing of the democratic party.
3. A revitalized mass movement against the wars.
4. A new propoganda blitz to justify the increased war effort.
5. Possibly, a new event of some type (like 911), especially if the pro-war propoganda is not effective.
6. All of this could spiral fairly quickly into a social upheaval, at least, on the order of 1968.
7. If all this were to occur, there will be a big growth in the revolutionary left and (of course) increased repression.

This seems like important stuff to me. If it all comes to pass anything like this, we face interesting times. And, we need to, as much as possible, have our eyes open as soon and as widely as possible.

Entrails Konfetti
12th November 2006, 03:15
I really hope the liberals see how they are being used.
Democrat politicians rode on the ant-war movement-- the larger, mainstream, and more acceptable aspects of it, which called for the troops to be sent home immediately. Now they who were voted in by the anti-war activists are saying we will only leave Iraq in victory-- which means they support the war.

How will there ever be victory in Iraq? There will have to be some constant millitary presence there (even if it's their own forces) to prevent incidents of sectarian violence on a daily basis, just one mistake on their part could fuck it all up and everyone's fighting everyone all over again.

I know that some liberals are of the oppressed, and I wonder why the put-up with this shit. They are clearly used and misinformed.

Severian
12th November 2006, 06:48
Originally posted by Guns of [email protected] 11, 2006 08:03 pm
It is a capitalist election and its significance is in what it tells us about the status of the capitalist class. The election wasn't just something that "happened". It seemed to me, for example, that the slant coming out of CNN was different (more critical of bush and supportive of the democrats) than before the other elections. The entire news/entertainment superstructure, in a whole bunch of subtle ways, seemed to sleant and bend differently.
Oh, absolutely. There were a whole series of revelations and news items which tended to aid the Democrats. The Mark Foley scandal for one.

Elections tend to be won by whoever the ruling class has more confidence in - and media coverage is one indication of who that is.

The defeat of the incumbent party probably does reflect, partly, dissatisfaction with the war among the middle-classes and working people. If nothing else, the Republicans' "sitting wartime president" advantage has been negated.


Didn't others see that? Why were the neo-conservatives, this time, unable to manipulate and steal the election (as, from all appearances they did in Ohio and florida in previous elections?

This question has a mistaken premise - that something significantly different happened in the vote-counting in 2000 and 2004, compared to this year or other elections.

There were extremely narrow electoral margins in both Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004. Not an exceptional amount of election cheating, and as always both sides were trying to cheat. It's just that it was so close that a little bit of cheating went a long way.

None of the major races was that close this time, that's the only difference. The closest was the Virginia Senate race - where a Democrat narrowly won. The Republican candidate decided not to go for a recount. Remember all the leftists denouncing Kerry as "spineless" for not having a prolonged recount fight in Ohio?

Didn't hear any of 'em saying that about the Republican Senate candidate in Virginia, whatever his name was. Gee, wonder why that was?


The US ruling class has factions and conflicts. Different factions of capital are in conflict with each other. And they have different policies about how best to represent the interests of the empire and of their own capital group within it. It seems to me that the conflict between the democratic and republican parties in the US is one of the main forms that the struggle between these factions is played out.

To a degree. But the venom of this conflict is all out of proportion to the real policy disagreements. Consider the Kerry-Bush debates and how much trouble Kerry had explaining how he woulda conducted the Iraq war differently.

Kerry: I woulda got our allies on board! Bush: Don't you think I tried? Kerry: I woulda tried harder! As if he could erase the underlying causes of increasing rivalry among the advanced capitalist states. To the degree there's a real disagreement there, it's not over Iraq - it's over relations with France, Germany, etc.

The conflicts are largely ideological - not so much over what policy to follow at the moment - as how to sell and justify the policy. And some implications about how to decide future policies.

Partly things are debated so vaguely, I think, this is because none of the possible policies are so great for them. But it's hard for ruling-class ideologists to fully face up to that hard reality.

And partly it involves "special interests" of particular companies, industries, and sections of the military brass and government bureaucracy. Rumsfeld was especially a lightning rod for clashes with parts of the brass - and many military contractors injured by his policies. His 'transformation" towards a leaner, faster military involved cancellling some heavy weapons systems. So the conflicts around him certainly involved contending bureaucratic and corporate interests - more than policy disagreements exactly.


The victory of the democratic party represents and signals a change of policy and, it seems, a new alliance of key factions on a new policy.

Yeah, they'll have to reach some bipartisan compromises, or try to. It's interesting that the new Defense Secretary is part of the bipartisan commisssion called the "Iraq Survey Group", which will be coming out with some kind of tactical recommendations. He was also recently co-chair of a bipartisan commision that recommended direct negotiations with Iran. There's been a lot of speculation by pundits about reach a compromise with Iran and Syria on stablilizing Iraq - Iran especially has a lot of influence on the Baghdad government; and some prominent Iraqi Ba'athists went into exile in Syria.


These factions have shown great animosity to each other in the past. Will they be able to maintain their alliance and move forward in relative harmony?

I seriously doubt it. We probably won't see an actual impeachment, but in some ways the next couple years will be a mirror-image of the late Clinton administration and his troubles with the constant demagogy of the Republican Congress.


I expect their alliance to hold because, very pragmatically their need is great - the neoconservative leadership and policy has proven itself to be too crude and unsophisticated to lead by itself. The neo-conservatives are having too many failures and leading their policies are doing too much obvious damage to the empire. The classic neo-liberals, with their more nuanced and sophisticated view face renewed credibility in the face of the failures of the neo-conservatives.

The difficulty with this is - that the neo-liberals have no basically different policy proposals (as you also say later in your post.) They can blame the empire's difficulties on their partisan rivals - but they can't show their policies woulda avoided those difficulties. At least lashing out helps maintain the empire's reputation as something to be feared.


1. The economy is very fragile and weak. It is way too pumped up on debt and easy credit. It is facing a classic imperialist crisis, especially in the financial realm.

2. The US is facing increasing competition from other (much weaker) imperialist and pressure from maneuvering capitalist blocks (even from within its current imperialist realm) looking to capitalize on its weaknesses.

3. the US ruling class is committed to the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan but will have to pay a high price to continue in the face of a growing resistance ready to explode. And, importantly, no faction seems to have a clear and confident plan for how to attain victory.

Absolutely. But I don't think their problems are going to promote greater unity. On the contrary, the pressure tends to produce cracks. That's why there's been so much partisan venom over the past decade or so.


1. A more aggressive prosecution of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But it must spiral out of control in the face of, what I expect is soon to be, a determined and massive liberation movement.

You're wrong about Iraqi and Afghani politics - and if there was "a determined and massive liberation movement" things would spiral into that movement's control as in Vietnam - not down the drain of increasing, pointless sectarian and ethnic conflict.

The U.S. ruling class will try to become more "effective" by trying different tactics in their occupations - I'm not sure if they'll be able to escalate much, though. They have problems with available numbers of troops, and the steady trickle of casualties is producing growing antiwar sentiment.

They could just as easily pull back to fortified bases and let Iraqis kill each other all around....come out and impose a settlement when everyone's tired of it. It worked in Yugoslavia. It's a huge PR problem, and the death of any "beacon of democracy" hopes - but not the massive "credibility" loss of a lost war or withdrawal.


2. A radicalization of a small portion of the "left" wing of the democratic party.
3. A revitalized mass movement against the wars.


Nah. They'll become less radical.

The radical-liberals will tend to go along with the Democrats in office. During the Clinton administration, you saw less antiwar activity from the radical-liberals. Far right types were often more vocal against the bombing of Yugoslavia.

Also, with the prospect of electoral success, they won't need to console themselves with Michael Moore-style complaining about election cheating and Bush "coups".


4. A new propoganda blitz to justify the increased war effort.

Featuring both parties, and media supporting both parties. Which is one reason we won't see 2 or 3. The infighting between them has created a lot of unfavorable publicity for the war - "when thieves fall out" we've gained in that respect.


5. Possibly, a new event of some type (like 911), especially if the pro-war propoganda is not effective.

An inevitable product of their system and their wars, but they don't control the timing and we can't predict it. Also, evidence indicates al-Qaeda's global structure isn't operating, much anyway, and they don't have home-grown cells among Amerian Muslims. There was an interesting article in Foreign Affairs recently about how fear of this is overblown.

The question would be whether new cells that spring up in Europe or elsewhere could operate into the U.S.


6. All of this could spiral fairly quickly into a social upheaval, at least, on the order of 1968.

Not based on 2 and 3 anyway. And 5 would push back working-class struggle for a time.

I'm not going to predict when the next major social upheaval will come - mass struggles like the immigrants' rights protests seem to have caught almost everyone by surprise. But I will say it'll look nothing like '68 - a middle-class radicalization occurring in a period of economic prosperity. The middle classes now are more concerned with protecting their privileges from the unwashed masses in the context of growing inequality.

'68 is overrated anyway - far from the height of the antiwar movement. Chicago '68 especially is overrated - a small action by frustrated liberals hoping to aid the "peace candidate" McCarthy. Of course, their actions had the opposite effect anyway.....

Which is kinda like the left opponents of the "Bush regime" now. They want to help the Democrats, even if they don't admit it to themselves. But the protests by the RCP and others don't help the Democrats electorally, obviously.

Guns of Brixton
12th November 2006, 08:35
Severian: Thanks for your response. I agree with much of what you say. I'll try to focus only on disagreements or on things that deepen the discussion.



There were extremely narrow electoral margins in both Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004. Not an exceptional amount of election cheating, and as always both sides were trying to cheat. It's just that it was so close that a little bit of cheating went a long way.


I agree with this. That is what made it possible for the small amount of manipulation to make the difference.



The closest was the Virginia Senate race - where a Democrat narrowly won. The Republican candidate decided not to go for a recount.


But this is the point. A small amount of cheating by the republicans could have put this race on that side and kept control of the senate in the hands of the republicans. The fact that it didn't happen and that the republican even conceded without a recount underscores my point that there have been important changes in the alignment of forces within the bourgeoisie.



The conflicts are largely ideological - not so much over what policy to follow at the moment - as how to sell and justify the policy. And some implications about how to decide future policies.


Good point. I overstated the issue of "policy". This is partially the fault of my inarticulateness and partially the fault of my incomplete understanding of these issues. I am trying here to sound out my partially formed ideas and gain a better understanding.

But, while the differences are not just over policy, they are also not very clearly ideological, it seems to me. For example, it is over questions of strategy for maintaining the empire (the neocon militarist oriented Grand Chessboard concept verses the neoliberal economic imperialism and economic neo-colonialism.

I agree with your other comments in this section.



I seriously doubt it. We probably won't see an actual impeachment, but in some ways the next couple years will be a mirror-image of the late Clinton administration and his troubles with the constant demagogy of the Republican Congress.


I feel like I am just guessing in this realm and it remains to be seen. I certainly expect there to be much posturing and the maintenance of a climate of conflict between the republicans and democrats. But, I don't expect it to have much substance and expect that it will largely for show and drama as a way to manipulate and distract the public.

I stand by my expectation that the conflict is likely to be superficial and that they will not be blocked from taking assertive action by thier disagreements.



Absolutely. But I don't think their problems are going to promote greater unity. On the contrary, the pressure tends to produce cracks. That's why there's been so much partisan venom over the past decade or so.


I understand this. I don't think that their problems are what tends to promote greater unity. It is that the neocons have been exposed as not being reality based and have failed. Their leadership has been a disaster for the empire. I am suggesting that the election results signifies the realization of this by key sections of the ruling class. The neocons won't go away, but they are weakened at the moment and the bourgeoisie will allow the neoliberals to take the lead. When I follow this through, it seems that it can only mean they will pursue what they have largely said - now that the war has commenced, it is unacceptable to lose and it should be prosecuted aggressively.



You're wrong about Iraqi and Afghani politics - and if there was "a determined and massive liberation movement" things would spiral into that movement's control as in Vietnam - not down the drain of increasing, pointless sectarian and ethnic conflict.


It is difficult from here in the US to know what is really going on in Iraq. I hear all the news about "pointless sectarian and ethnic conflict". And it may be true. But, my bullshit indicator tells me that this sounds much like what the US wants us to believe. Of course the US wants to divide and conquer. And, i do not doubt that they are actively provoking that (there has been considerable evidence that some of the ethnic conflict has been formented by us troops in disguise). But, I hope and believe that a large part of the people in Iraq (whether Shiite, Sunni or Kurd) will see through this and see that their common enemy is the US.



The U.S. ruling class will try to become more "effective" by trying different tactics in their occupations - I'm not sure if they'll be able to escalate much, though. They have problems with available numbers of troops, and the steady trickle of casualties is producing growing antiwar sentiment.


For sure, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The question will be whether their need to escalate to avoid failure will be greater than their need to quell domestic resistance. We will see. I am suggesting that they may come down to the choice of losing the war or escalating the war and that they may choose to escalate. If that is the choice, our struggle in the US could materially help the iraquis by building a strong anti-war movement and reducing their options.



They could just as easily pull back to fortified bases and let Iraqis kill each other all around


Doesn't that about describe what they are doing now? I suppose that that is a possiblilty. They maintain their strategic aim of a geo-politically base there. But the cost domestically would be so high. It would be like an imperial tooth ache that would fester with a growing infection as time goes on. And, they must know that they do not have that kind of time. Also, that scenario is based on the presumption that the conflict there is and will remain primarily sectarian and ethnic rather than national liberation.



Nah. They'll become less radical.


I agree that the vast majority of the "left-democrats" will stay liberal. But, a good number will be radicalized. They will break with the democrats and will move toward some kind of social democratic formation like the green party. And an even smaller number than that will be further radicalized and become active revolutionaries. And that is important. That small number could be tens of thousands. That number of new activists will have a huge impact on the revolutionary left.

Severian
12th November 2006, 10:54
Originally posted by Guns of [email protected] 12, 2006 02:35 am
But this is the point. A small amount of cheating by the republicans could have put this race on that side and kept control of the senate in the hands of the republicans.
It wasn't as close as Florida 2000, I don't think. Maybe they did cheat and it just wasn't enough; maybe they did cheat and the Democrats managed to cheat a little more.

'Course there is more scrutiny of all this since 2000, so that does make it harder....


But, while the differences are not just over policy, they are also not very clearly ideological, it seems to me. For example, it is over questions of strategy for maintaining the empire (the neocon militarist oriented Grand Chessboard concept verses the neoliberal economic imperialism and economic neo-colonialism.

And "stability" vs "spreading democracy" and....a lot of things. With very muddled lines.


I certainly expect there to be much posturing and the maintenance of a climate of conflict between the republicans and democrats. But, I don't expect it to have much substance and expect that it will largely for show and drama as a way to manipulate and distract the public.

Well, yeah. But also scandals and so forth are part of the way bourgeois factions go after each other and try to get an edge. For an example in another country, shortly after Israel's botched war in Lebanon all kinds of financial and sexual scandals rapidly went public. Including the chief of the general staff selling a bunch of stock just before the war was announced, and accusations of sexual harassment against the president.

The effect of all this tends to be to drive all of bourgeois politics to the right - certainly with the Clinton scandals - and also to feed radical ultrarightists' demagoguery about the corruption and moral degeneracy of the elite.


Their leadership has been a disaster for the empire. I am suggesting that the election results signifies the realization of this by key sections of the ruling class. The neocons won't go away, but they are weakened at the moment and the bourgeoisie will allow the neoliberals to take the lead. When I follow this through, it seems that it can only mean they will pursue what they have largely said - now that the war has commenced, it is unacceptable to lose and it should be prosecuted aggressively.

True, but the more conservative elements won't go away - they'll keep hammering at the liberals and using their lack of alternative perspective, and the failures which will continue to come in. OK, failures now will still mostly be blamed on Bush, but if the Democrats retake the White House....


It is difficult from here in the US to know what is really going on in Iraq.

Not especially. Not in broad outline.


I hear all the news about "pointless sectarian and ethnic conflict". And it may be true. But, my bullshit indicator tells me that this sounds much like what the US wants us to believe.

You can't figure out what's going on just by turning things upside down and assuming that every article in Pravda is false. (People in the USSR ended up with some pretty strange conclusions that way.) And you can't figure out what to do about it just by supporting everything they oppose.


Of course the US wants to divide and conquer. And, i do not doubt that they are actively provoking that (there has been considerable evidence that some of the ethnic conflict has been formented by us troops in disguise).

No, there isn't considerable evidence. That's a conspiracy theory. Social analysis, in contrast, points out how the occupation's nature and policies tend to deepen all the sectarian divisions which already existed in Iraqi society. One good article on this (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=53830)

This is partly conscious divide-and-conquer, certainly. But they've got no need to carry out these attacks themselves. 'Cause the US ruling class are far from the only scum in the world - just the most powerful. They really don't have the capability to do lots of suicide bombings, let alone house-to-house ethnic cleansing death threats, either.


But, I hope and believe that a large part of the people in Iraq (whether Shiite, Sunni or Kurd) will see through this and see that their common enemy is the US.

Sure, I hoped for that too. But the trend has been in the opposite direction. I mean, it may be that the majority do see that, but working people are not so mobilized in their own interests; instead there are contending bourgeois forces.

Opposing imperialism is just not these forces' highest priority. Many of them posture as anti-imperialist primarily as a means of winning people to their theocratic or sectarian politics. So different forces tend to compete for Washington's favor. In many cases, even Sunni Arabs have cheered Washington's attacks on Shi'a militia (and of course the reverse is true.) As in Yugoslavia, each side complains that Washington is biased towards the other - which requires accepting Washington as arbiter, and lower-priority enemy.




They could just as easily pull back to fortified bases and let Iraqis kill each other all around
Doesn't that about describe what they are doing now?

As you say, they're heading this way in practice. It's a matter of degree. The less they go off base to patrol or run checkpoints, - the fewer casualties they'll take. They can still, without taking too many casualties, provide air support, supplies, training and reaction forces/backup to whichever Iraqis they choose to aid.

This may not be the proposal of their best strategists - but they are pressured in this direction by the desire to reduce strain on the military and to reduce the political cost of casualties at home.

But yeah, it's a guess, escalation's also possible. All kinds of lurches and experimentation are likely, even.


They will break with the democrats and will move toward some kind of social democratic formation like the green party.

OK, the Nader phenom or something like that might come back to pre-2000 levels. But that doesn't involve breaking with the Democrats - as proved by the speed with which Nader's supporters abandoned him again. When he was blamed for Bush's victory.

I just don't think this layer of radical-liberals is the best place to look for potential communists.

Entrails Konfetti
13th November 2006, 08:14
So basically Severain believes that nothing will happen, and will all go back to the Clinton days.

I find it hard to believe that none of the anti-war liberals won't wake up, and atleast stop tailing the democrats.