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Severian
8th November 2006, 22:34
So - what happened to the fascist or fascist-like Bush regime that some posters liked to go on about?

Who ever heard of a fascist regime losing an election? Who ever heard of a two-party fascist regime, with the two parties contesting power through elections and public debate? No, sorry, those things are characteristics of bourgeois democracy.

I'm pretty sure that Mussolini left office hanging upside down - not when his constitutional term was up.

And I'm just as sure that's how Bush is leaving - and now it looks very possible his successor might even be from the other party.

How is Chairman Bob of the "Revolutionary Communist Party", for one example, going to explain this away?

One thing's for sure: nobody on "the left" is going to claim the Democrats are running a fascist regime.....

There have been other times in history that some leftists have claimed Republican presidents were "fascist" - Nixon for example - in order to justify veiled support to the Democrats. The reverse has never happened.

So far, Chairman Bob's people in "Revolution" newspaper (http://www.rwor.org/a/068/dems-en.html) are putting up a lot of obfuscation on this.

"Add it up, and whats clear is that a Democratic Congress would be a changebut not the kind millions are looking for: it wont derail the Bush juggernaut"

Of course it will. Now what it won't do: derail the U.S. ruling-class imperialist bipartisan "juggernaut".

Then they go on to claim: "As the New York Times (10/27) summed up, even if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress, they will not have the authority to change the course of the war significantly."

What the Times and "Revolution" are both obscuring: The Democrats, if they control Congress, control the funds necessary to wage war. They would have the authority to end Iraq occupation completely.

But of course they don't want to, since there is no fundamental disagreement between the Democrats and Bush over this. In part, the "Revolution" article even explains this. "the Democrats agree with Bushs agenda in broad strokes", "Their biggest problem with Bush is that he isnt succeeding in carrying out his aggression and conquering Iraq. ", they just have "differences between ruling class parties over how to carry out objectives a, b, and c, abovein short, over how to maintain their empire and rule".

So why do you call it the "Bush agenda" and not the bipartisan agenda, then? Why did you claim he headed a fascist regime, not a two-party bourgeois-democratic regime? Why did you call for "Drive out the Bush regime" instead of opposing both parties equally?

That's what the RCP - and others who've claimed the Bush regime is "fascist" - don't and can't explain.....

Tekun
8th November 2006, 22:37
:lol:
Ppl are either gonna flame or totally avoid this thread

Lenin's Law
8th November 2006, 22:52
A good post. I've never had much respect for the RCP, they sound very opportunistic in their politics and cultish with regards to the "Great Leader" Bob Avakian.

I agree the focus needs to be on the two parties, not on just the Republicans and especially not on one "evil, fascist" individual. The focus needs to be on ruling class, bourgeois politics that make all this possible. They (Democrats, Republicans) are just representatives, mouthpieces of the ruling class.

The RCP is being very opportunistic and trying to ride the back of the liberal, reformist "anyone but Bush" movement. In doing so, they've become another liberal, reformist, "anyone but Bush" organization.

YSR
8th November 2006, 22:54
Solid stuff, Severian. Definitely worth repeating and reprinting.

Karl Marx's Camel
8th November 2006, 22:59
Yes, solid post there, Severian.

I wonder what comments you will receive in this thread, if any.

Severian
8th November 2006, 23:21
Thanks. Lemme emphasize this is not just the RCP - they're just a convenient example of a problem that's very widespread on "the left" in different forms.

Demogorgon
8th November 2006, 23:24
Well Pinochet did leave at the Ballot box.

Red October
8th November 2006, 23:57
great post. i was getting tired of some people rambling and screaming about how the republican party is setting up a fascist one-party regime.

Severian
9th November 2006, 00:09
Demogorgon - about Pinochet,
You mean the 1988 referendum? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#End_of_the_Pinochet_regime)

Interesting example - but in any case, nobody would mistake that process for the ordinary process of contested bourgeois-democratic elections. It was sort of the negotiated end of a repressive regime - a bit like what happened in South Africa. When multi-candidate elections did occur in '89, Pinochet wasn't a candidate.

(And just by the way, Pinochet's regime was more of a "normal" military dictatorship than specifically fascist. It came to power in a military coup, not as a result of a middle-class radical populist mass movement like Mussolini's and Hitler's.)

Guerrilla22
9th November 2006, 00:33
I never really thought the country was heading towards fascism, however the country has steadily become more autocratic since Bush too office. He's used over 700 signing statements, which had previously only been done 178 times in US history, as well as issued more executive orders than any President in US history.

Lenin's Law
9th November 2006, 00:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 12:33 am
I never really thought the country was heading towards fascism, however the country has steadily become more autocratic since Bush too office. He's used over 700 signing statements, which had previously only been done 178 times in US history, as well as issued more executive orders than any President in US history.
Actually, according to The National Archives, Bush hasn't issued the most executive orders and it doesn't look like he will:

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/e...ders/wbush.html (http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/wbush.html)

Administration of George W. Bush (2001-Present)
215 Total Executive orders Issued

that's less than:

Administration of William J. Clinton (1993-2001)
364 Total Executive Orders Issued

Administration of Ronald Reagan (1981-1989)
381 Total Executive Orders Issued

Administration of Richard Nixon (1969-1974)
346 Total Executive Orders Issued

Administration of Lyndon B. Johnson (1963-1969)
324 Total Executive Orders Issued

Guerrilla22
9th November 2006, 00:55
Originally posted by Lenin's Law+November 09, 2006 12:51 am--> (Lenin's Law @ November 09, 2006 12:51 am)
[email protected] 09, 2006 12:33 am
I never really thought the country was heading towards fascism, however the country has steadily become more autocratic since Bush too office. He's used over 700 signing statements, which had previously only been done 178 times in US history, as well as issued more executive orders than any President in US history.
Actually, according to The National Archives, Bush hasn't issued the most executive orders and it doesn't look like he will:

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/e...ders/wbush.html (http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/wbush.html)

Administration of George W. Bush (2001-Present)
215 Total Executive orders Issued

that's less than:

Administration of William J. Clinton (1993-2001)
364 Total Executive Orders Issued

Administration of Ronald Reagan (1981-1989)
381 Total Executive Orders Issued

Administration of Richard Nixon (1969-1974)
346 Total Executive Orders Issued

Administration of Lyndon B. Johnson (1963-1969)
324 Total Executive Orders Issued [/b]
He'll soon break the record. I can't imagine what its going to be like with a democratic house and possibly a democratic senate as well.

Lenin's Law
9th November 2006, 00:58
So he's going to make 166 executive orders in little over 2 years after *only* making 215 the first 6?? Doesn't make sense.

And I can imagine what a House and Senate with a bunch of right wing Democrats would look like: about the same as it did before.

Guerrilla22
9th November 2006, 01:01
Originally posted by Lenin's [email protected] 09, 2006 12:58 am
So he's going to make 166 executive orders in little over 2 years after *only* making 215 the first 6?? Doesn't make sense.

And I can imagine what a House and Senate with a bunch of right wing Democrats would look like: about the same as it did before.
Just when you think Bush can't possibly be any worse, he finds ways to surprise you. ;)

red team
9th November 2006, 01:29
Sorry to break it to you, but so-called democracy doesn't exist in the U.S. even with "popular" elections. Just think about how many people bother even to show up to vote. If you discount 20% of eligible voters that didn't vote because they were "too busy", that still leaves you with 80% of the eligible electorate. What was the current voter turnout for the present election out of a possible 80% if the population was really that enthusiastic about democracy? 40%. That is half the people purposely didn't see any point in going through the charade. Anybody who was elected was chosen by less than half of the population which means the population never actually consented to any leader being in office.

And more that that Democracy is more than just about picking leaders which is pretty much irrelevant in today's complex society. How can you as a "leader" be knowledgeable enough in every critical sector of society to be able to make an informed decision on anything? The complexity of modern society has grown beyond any single leader to make a final arbitrary decision because any single person is simply not knowledgeable enough to do it. This isn't the 19th century. Any present leader of any country is just a figurehead for people who are really knowledgeable enough to make informed decisions. They would be the rich investors and think tank members, not the people in office. Furthermore, if due process and habeus corpus and the legal justification for everybody to be a subjected to laws not just the "commoners" is taken away then does the "power" to participate in elections make any difference to Democracy?

metalero
9th November 2006, 01:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 07:09 pm
Demogorgon - about Pinochet,
You mean the 1988 referendum? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#End_of_the_Pinochet_regime)

Interesting example - but in any case, nobody would mistake that process for the ordinary process of contested bourgeois-democratic elections. It was sort of the negotiated end of a repressive regime - a bit like what happened in South Africa. When multi-candidate elections did occur in '89, Pinochet wasn't a candidate.

(And just by the way, Pinochet's regime was more of a "normal" military dictatorship than specifically fascist. It came to power in a military coup, not as a result of a middle-class radical populist mass movement like Mussolini's and Hitler's.)
no violent revolution was needed to get Pinochet to step down, since most of his economical policies remained intact even to these days, so the colonial buorguoise and their imperialists masters realized that the job of reverting the social conquests made by the working class was finished, and neoliberalism was fully implemented in Chile. The generals were no more needed than a buorguoise "democracy" that keeps the atrocities in impunity, a very well designed electoral system to prevent working class parties to ever reach power again, and a savage neoliberal economy.

Severian
9th November 2006, 08:21
Originally posted by Guerrilla22+November 08, 2006 06:33 pm--> (Guerrilla22 @ November 08, 2006 06:33 pm)I never really thought the country was heading towards fascism, however the country has steadily become more autocratic since Bush too office. He's used over 700 signing statements, which had previously only been done 178 times in US history, as well as issued more executive orders than any President in US history.[/b]
And he vetoed just one bill in six years - the fewest of any president ever. This argument isn't so convincing.

There are dangerous moves against democratic rights - including the latest "anti-terrorism" bill. But these moves are bipartisan and Congressionally approved.

In fact, many of Bush's worst moves have built on Clinton's. They've accelerated, yes - more since 9/11 than since Bush's inauguration, really.


red [email protected] 08, 2006 07:29 pm
SAnybody who was elected was chosen by less than half of the population which means the population never actually consented to any leader being in office.
That's what bourgeois democracy is all about. Yes, it's all fake on the deepest level.

Still, there are differences between the various forms of rule by the rich. If it didn't matter - nobody'd bother trying to say Bush was fascist.

RebelDog
9th November 2006, 09:01
Sorry to break it to you, but so-called democracy doesn't exist in the U.S. even with "popular" elections. Just think about how many people bother even to show up to vote. If you discount 20% of eligible voters that didn't vote because they were "too busy", that still leaves you with 80% of the eligible electorate. What was the current voter turnout for the present election out of a possible 80% if the population was really that enthusiastic about democracy? 40%. That is half the people purposely didn't see any point in going through the charade. Anybody who was elected was chosen by less than half of the population which means the population never actually consented to any leader being in office.

I think it might actually be worse than that.

The votes should be counted with non-voters should always be included in the calculation. For example commentators described the Labour Party in the UK as winning with 35% of the vote in the last election in 2005. 35% is pathetic in itself but if we take it in terms of those eligable to vote it becomes a paltry 22%. Of those who could vote only 22% voted for the current government of the UK and they call that a legitimate mandate to rule. The seldom talk about the 78% of people who got something they didn't want when stating the UK is a 'democracy'.

Martin Blank
9th November 2006, 22:32
Well, now that all the ass-kissing and ego-stroking above seems to be over, I'll make some comments in reply.

Let me begin, though, by making clear that the League generally uses the term "corporatist" to refer to the Bush regime, precisely because the term "fascist" is rather loaded and, among leftists like Severian, invoking of only the most narrow and wooden of theoretical postulates.


Originally posted by Severian+November 08, 2006 05:34 pm--> (Severian @ November 08, 2006 05:34 pm)Who ever heard of a fascist regime losing an election? Who ever heard of a two-party fascist regime, with the two parties contesting power through elections and public debate? No, sorry, those things are characteristics of bourgeois democracy.[/b]

Uh, I have. But then, my understanding of fascism extends beyond Germany. Both Italy and Poland had multiparty fascist regimes throughout the 1920s (and, in the case of Poland, 1930s). And what is worth noting is that, in the case of Poland, more than one party was drawn into the Pilsudski regime. In fact, the Sanacja, which ran the Polish government under Pilsudski was a coalition of several parties, including the PPS, the National Democrats and Camp of National Unity.

But there is a deeper theoretical issue here, and it has to do with the relationship between "democracy" and fascism. Antonio Gramsci had a point when he talked about the relationship between the two. From Gramsci's perspective, "democracy" and fascism operate as "two aspects of a single reality, two different forms of a single activity: the activity which the bourgeois class carries out to halt the proletarian class on its path".

For Gramsci, the resorting to fascist rule by the bourgeoisie did carry out fundamental changes, and it was done without changing the forms of capitalist rule or the "rights" which the Italian Constitution guaranteed on paper. It was the fundamental destruction of the organizations of the working class as expressions of organic class unity -- its reduction "to a disconnected, fragmented, scattered mass".

And where are we after five years of the Bush regime?

The anti-globalization movement ... FORGOTTEN

The antiwar movement ... CO-OPTED

The organized labor movement ... INEFFECTIVE

Independent working-class economic organization ... ATOMIZED

Independent working-class political organization ... MARGINALIZED

Working people's social and cultural organizations ... VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT

Actually, looking at the above, I realize that each of the adjectives can be used to describe any of them.

So, having succeeded in putting down the working class, the bourgeoisie realizes it can now afford a little more "democracy" for itself and the petty bourgeoisie. (Forgive the long quote, but I figure it's better than trying to "re-invent the wheel", so to speak.)

(Antonio Gramsci @ "Democracy and Fascism", 1924)When the working class is reduced to such conditions, the political situation is "democratic". In such conditions, in fact, so-called liberal bourgeois groups can, without fear of fatal repercussions on the internal cohesion of State and society: 1. separate their responsibilities from those of the fascism which they armed, encouraged and incited to struggle against the workers; 2, restore "the rule of law", i.e. a state of affairs in which the possibility for a workers' organization to exist is not denied. They can do the first of these two things because the workers, dispersed and disorganized, are not in any position to insert their strength into the bourgeois contradiction deeply enough to transform it into a general crisis of society, prelude to revolution. The second thing is possible for them because fascism has created the conditions for it, by destroying the results of thirty years' organizational work. The freedom to organize is only conceded to the workers by the bourgeois when they are certain that the workers have been reduced to a point where they can no longer make use of it, except to resume elementary organizing work - work which they hope will not have political consequences other than in the very long term.

In short, "democracy" organized fascism when it felt it could no longer resist the pressure of the working class in conditions even of only formal freedom. Fascism, by shattering the working class, has restored to "democracy" the possibility of existing. In the intentions of the bourgeoisie, the division of labour should operate perfectly: the alternation of fascism and democracy should serve to exclude for ever any possibility of working-class resurgence. But not only the bourgeois see things in this way. The same point of view is shared by the reformists, by the maximalists, by all those who say that present conditions for the workers of Italy are analogous to those of thirty years ago, those of 1890 and before, when the working-class movement was taking its first steps among us -- by all those who believe that the resurgence should take place with the same slogans and in the same forms as at that time -- by all those, therefore, who view the conflict between "democratic" bourgeoisie and fascism in the same way that they then viewed the conflicts between radical and conservative bourgeois -- by all those who speak of "constitutional freedoms" or of "freedom of work" in the same way that one could speak of these at the outset of the workers' movement.[/b][/quote]

I would argue an analogous position today. The rise of the Bush regime was necessary to suppress a growing working-class opposition to "globalization" and corporatism. Now that this process has passed a point of quality, and the working class is once again "disconnected, fragmented, scattered" as a political or economic force, the bourgeoisie can afford to restore "the rule of law" for itself and its petty-bourgeois adjutants.

But this is done in order to more effectively manage the same corporatist regime that came into power in 2000. What we saw on Tuesday is, as one comrade and friend of mine put it two years ago, a "vapor of democracy", not bourgeois democracy itself.

Now, I know that you adhere to a Trotskyist conception of fascism. While I see what Trotsky wrote on fascism to be a valuable contribution to communist theory, it is only valuable as far as it went. And I would argue that the advantage Gramsci had was the ability to analyze the internal dynamics of a fascist regime in power, the contradictions it contained and the motions of it as it developed.

Nevertheless, Trotsky did implicitly see the importance of what Gramsci emphasized in his pre-prison writings. For example, Trotsky did understand that a fascist regime had different dynamics than a fascist movement. Moreover, near the end of his life, Trotsky also began to flirt with the theory of the organic tendency of bourgeois rule to develop "in the direction of fascism" -- i.e., into fascism.


Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 05:34 pm
I'm pretty sure that Mussolini left office hanging upside down - not when his constitutional term was up.

And I'm just as sure that's how Bush is leaving - and now it looks very possible his successor might even be from the other party.

It is true that Mussolini "left office" hanging upside-down, but that is not the same as saying that this is the only course by which a fascist leader "leaves office".


Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 05:34 pm
One thing's for sure: nobody on "the left" is going to claim the Democrats are running a fascist regime.....

There have been other times in history that some leftists have claimed Republican presidents were "fascist" - Nixon for example - in order to justify veiled support to the Democrats. The reverse has never happened.

Uh, I will -- sort of. I would argue that the electoral victory of the Democrats last Tuesday has led to a corporatist regime that has the support of both capitalist parties. Running? No. Full partners in the corporatist order? Absolutely.

We've already begun to see this, with the extension of a "second honeymoon" to Bush by the Democratic Party officials. The "Big 'I's" -- impeachment (of Bush and Cheney), investigation (at least, anything meaningful), intervention and Iraq (as in, "ending the occupation of") -- are "off the table". This is because the corporatists in and around the Democratic Party are calling the shots in Congress -- the "National Security Democrats": Rahm Emanuel, Joe Lieberman (though he is technically an independent), Evan Bayh, Joe Biden, etc.

It is a capital mistake to see the Democratic Party as a singular unit. Will Rogers' axiom about the Democratic Party is still true. Over the last 15 to 20 years, we've seen the reorganization and growth of what used to be called the "Dixiecrats" -- though to call them such today would be a mistake, since they are no longer confined to "Dixie". Yes, there are social democrats in the Democratic Party, but there are also corporatists, Bonapartists/neoliberals and liberals.

So, to have both sides of the Janusian face of American capitalism saying the same thing should not be surprising, and should certainly not be out of the question.


[email protected] 08, 2006 05:34 pm
So why do you call it the "Bush agenda" and not the bipartisan agenda, then? Why did you claim he headed a fascist regime, not a two-party bourgeois-democratic regime? Why did you call for "Drive out the Bush regime" instead of opposing both parties equally?

I cannot speak for the RCP, and will not venture to on this question. This is one of many areas where we and the RCP part company. If they want to be soft on the Democrats, which is what it increasingly sounds like, then they are free to walk that road. We will not follow.

We continue to call it the Bush regime because Bush is still the head of state. Moreover, the "anti-terrorist" laws adopted over the last five years (due to the work of both parties in Congress) have given the executive almost unlimited, unchallenged power.

We continue to characterize the regime as corporatist. The difference now is that the Democrats are no longer junior partners, but full partners. Let me make this clear: the appearance of "democracy" is not the same as the reality of democracy.

The PATRIOT Acts and Military Commissions Act still exist are will not be repealed; the occupation of Iraq and phony "war on terror" will continue, but will be jointly managed; the corporate welfare state will continue, but the benefits will be better "targeted" to benefit the bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie.

Now, it may be the case that one or two crumbs will be tossed to the population by the corporatists. It does appear that nationalized health care is on the agenda, but this is only because it would relieve the bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie of the burden of keeping up with increasing costs. That, and perhaps an incremental raise in the minimum wage, will may be what the corporatists throw to "the masses" in order to keep them from organizing.

But the need to drive out the Bush regime -- which means Bush and his partners -- remains, and, as we have always argued, this can only be done by the working class.

Miles

Marx Lenin Stalin
10th November 2006, 00:03
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 10:34 pm
How is Chairman Bob of the "Revolutionary Communist Party", for one example, going to explain this away?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

"Chairman "what about Bob?" Avakian is a complete joke! You know, some people told me that I should re-think about being the Leader of my party because of the existence of the lame RCP. But I believe I have proven them WRONG

What about Bob? is a useless, tired, washed up, living in France crypto-Trotskyist masquerading as a Maoist. His time is long gone, his usefulness is slowly vanishing and withering away. He was proven wrong here and he is sliding closer and closer to reformism, as most Trotskyists do.

It is time for change and a NEW Leader to emerge as true manifestation of the working class, and as a true manifestation of working class politics and of Marxism Leninism.

The Party of American Bolsheviks wishes to inform the serious revolutionaries here that we have found such a Leader.

- Chairman MLS

Severian
10th November 2006, 00:49
So now we've heard from the RCP's unofficial PR rep....does the RCP want to speak for itself? Or any of the other left tendencies who have run their mouths about the "Bush regime" his 2000 "coup", etc.?


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 04:32 pm
Let me begin, though, by making clear that the League generally uses the term "corporatist" to refer to the Bush regime, precisely because the term "fascist" is rather loaded and, among leftists like Severian, invoking of only the most narrow and wooden of theoretical postulates.
Yes, "corporatist" has the great advantage of vagueness. You've never explained what you mean by it.

But you do make all kinds of Mussolini comparisons and whatnot, so most people are going to take your line as saying Bush is something like fascism. Anyway, not bourgeois democracy.

Similar to the RCP's line. And in fact at one point you did endorse their "Drive Out the Bush Regime" protests. Before concluding they'd been coopted by Democrats - gee, imagine that.


It was the fundamental destruction of the organizations of the working class as expressions of organic class unity -- its reduction "to a disconnected, fragmented, scattered mass".

By means of Blackshirt violence. Where are Bush's Blackshirts or Stormtroopers? The RCP hawks its papers openly - holds its rallies under the slogan "Drive Out the Bush Regime" - with no violent attack. Your groups chooses to be "clandestine", but that's a choice.

More importantly, workers strike - hold rallies of hundreds of thousands of immigrant workers - without having 'em broken up.

That's why the difference between fascism and bourgeois democracy matters. This is bourgeois democracy.


And where are we after five years of the Bush regime?

The anti-globalization movement ... FORGOTTEN
.....
So, having succeeded in putting down the working class, the bourgeoisie realizes it can now afford a little more "democracy" for itself and the petty bourgeoisie.

Well, that's a mighty pessimistic, even defeatist outlook. I might point out May 1 saw the biggest one-day political strike every in this country - by many, many immigrant workers - huge coordinated days of protest, with huge demonstrations in major cities and little ones in an amazing number of small towns - but you say the working class has been successfully put down.

(Because middle-class protests like the "anti-globalization movement" and the "anti-war movement" have been coopted and forgotten! Little or no loss there.)

Anyway, how was this supposedly done? Obviously not by private fascist gangs, or even cops and soldiers, smashing up rallies or organizations.

The ability to co-opt dissent is - more characteristic of bourgeois democracy than any other political system. That's one reason it's relatively stable and long-lasting.


The rise of the Bush regime was necessary to suppress a growing working-class opposition to "globalization" and corporatism. Now that this process has passed a point of quality, and the working class is once again "disconnected, fragmented, scattered" as a political or economic force, the bourgeoisie can afford to restore "the rule of law" for itself and its petty-bourgeois adjutants.

But there's no serious reason why they needed fascism in 2000, and don't now. If anything, the upsurge in actions by immigrant workers points in the opposite direction. Popular sentiment around Iraq and the Katrina aftermath also creates the potential for opposition to the ruling class greater than anything going on in 1999 or 2000. The unions haven't become suddenly weaker or smaller under Bush; that's a longer-term process.

Most of your "CO-OPTED"s and "FORGOTTEN"s could have been said with about as much truth before the "Bush regime" came along.

Just a lot of sophistry. Apparently you're trying to explain away why your line has proven dead wrong, without honestly admitting that it has. Try it sometime - it might not kill you - say "We were wrong. Bush is not a fascist. Hugo Chavez is not leading a socialist revolution. Everyone makes mistakes - we will correct ours honestly."

As an example of how it's done, consider the last half of this Militant editorial for example. (http://www.themilitant.com/2004/6838/683820.html)

Supposedly there was fascism before, but it's painlessly and without upheaval melting away now. The RCP discounted any such possibility before - said there's no way to drive out the Bush "regime" without a mass upheaval. People who organize coups aren't going to just let themselves be voted out of office. Logical enough, if you grant that Bush is der Fuehrer. I bet if I dug through your stuff I could find something similar.

But never mind that! Fascism is melting away peacefully now! Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia!

Does save you from the need to declare a Democratic administration fascist, just as I predicted! Very convenient.

SocialistGenius
10th November 2006, 01:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 10:32 pm
Well, now that all the ass-kissing and ego-stroking above seems to be over, I'll make some comments in reply.

Let me begin, though, by making clear that the League generally uses the term "corporatist" to refer to the Bush regime, precisely because the term "fascist" is rather loaded and, among leftists like Severian, invoking of only the most narrow and wooden of theoretical postulates.

Don't forget that "Fascism" is "Corporatism", defined so by it's creator (Mussolini), as the merging of corporations and the state. I get what you are saying about fascism being overloaded as a term, but if you stick to the truest definition of the word, then fascist and corporatist are synonymous. The fascism that was implemented in Italy also removed many civil liberties and turned the country into a police state ruled by one all-powerful leader.. and this has become the definition of fascism in some peoples minds, many of whom don't know about the defining corporatism behind it all.

ZACKist
10th November 2006, 01:32
Quick question, comrade(s)...

"Great Leader" was put in quotes. Where exactly has the RCP ever used such a term to describe their Chair?

Don't bother, cause you won't find such a statement.

I also don't believe there was ever anything stated about the US being fascist so much as on a road to fascism --and there is a difference. There is a great threat to what Bush and his administration is setting out to do, and what Revolution and the RCP (and also the WCW) express about the dangers of staying in "status-quo" politics as usual is very true.

The idea that I have seen expressed before, that the RCP is in some way supportive of the Dem party is just ridiculous and sloppy. It only leads to deviations of fact/reality and what the party actually is trying to do --re-polarize US society to create revolutionary sentiment.

Why exactly polarizing the politics in a country to create class-consciousness is a bad thing, or something to criticize a party for, is beyond me.

Tatarin
10th November 2006, 02:36
If you think about it, Bush practically finished what Nixon only thought about. While Nixon didn't trust either the FBI or the CIA, Bush corrected that "mistake" and used all of the agencies to the capitalist agenda. Of course, this wouldn't work as smoothly as it did with 9/11, but still. So what if Bush is shot tomorrow? So what if Washington DC gets nuked? You really think that is going to stop US imperialism, let alone capitalism?

And while the US still has some kind of elections, we better start looking towards China - they have none at all. And it looks like they will be the new imperialists within the next 50 years.

Red Heretic
10th November 2006, 03:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 10:34 pm


Ah, more dishonest posting from Sevarian! The problem here is that he has distorted what the RCP means by the phrases "Christian Fascist" and "Bush regime." He is acting as if Democrats aren't a part of those two words, and as if those words are synonomous with the word "republican." They aren't.


So - what happened to the fascist or fascist-like Bush regime that some posters liked to go on about?

They're still in power.


Who ever heard of a fascist regime losing an election?

Were you under that the Christian Fascists lost the election??? They didn't! The democrats who won the election have the same fascist programmes as the republicans (and some of their programmes are even worse than the republicans!). They are a part of the Bush Regime! For example, Hilary Clinton has an even worse line on Iran than fucking Bush!

These democrats support the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which legalized torture, which not even the Nazis did. These democrats who are in power oppose women's rights to abortion (or at least don't defend it), just like the republicans. They want to invade Iran, just like the republicans (and some of them want to NUKE Iran!). The democrats want to ESCALATE the war in Iraq by adding more troops to "get the job done." These democrats are a part of the fascist Bush regime!

How the fuck has this stopped the move into fascism put forward by the Bush regime?


and now it looks very possible his successor might even be from the other party.

Will Bush's successor be a representative of bourgeois democracy, or will they uphold the fascist programmes that both the republicans and the democrats are a part of?


How is Chairman Bob of the "Revolutionary Communist Party", for one example, going to explain this away?

How about with dialectical materialism and a scientific understanding of the truth?


So why do you call it the "Bush agenda" and not the bipartisan agenda, then? Why did you claim he headed a fascist regime, not a two-party bourgeois-democratic regime? Why did you call for "Drive out the Bush regime" instead of opposing both parties equally?

People need to understand that the term "Bush regime" encompasses both republicans and democrats who follow the theocratic fascist line of Bush. Time after time, you keep distorting the meaning of the call to drive out the Bush regime.

Drive out the Bush regime means drive out the entire fascist regime, not just the republicans.


That's what the RCP - and others who've claimed the Bush regime is "fascist" - don't and can't explain.....

Liar.

Leo
10th November 2006, 05:30
Wow, this thread is getting intense!

Severian
10th November 2006, 09:05
Originally posted by Red [email protected] 09, 2006 09:06 pm
Ah, more dishonest posting from Sevarian! The problem here is that he has distorted what the RCP means by the phrases "Christian Fascist" and "Bush regime." He is acting as if Democrats aren't a part of those two words, and as if those words are synonomous with the word "republican." They aren't.
Really? Why don't you explain what those terms do mean to you, then? I'm not holding my breath on a definition, of course.

In any case, most people understand your slogans to mean: Drive Out the Bush "regime"/administration and the Republicans. That's why some Democrats have joined your protests.

Heck, liberals right here on this board understand "Drive Out the Bush Regime" to mean "vote for the lesser evil"! (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=58134) And that liberal, like you, keeps up the same insistence that he's doesn't want people to vote for the Democrats - he just wants people to vote against Bush.

So even if you mean something different in the privacy of your own skull, or the fine print you write somewhere I haven't seen and most people won't see - that has little or no practical effect.


Were you under that the Christian Fascists lost the election??? They didn't! The democrats who won the election have the same fascist programmes as the republicans (and some of their programmes are even worse than the republicans!). They are a part of the Bush Regime!

Oh. "These democrats"? Does that mean some other Democrats aren't? You're not supporting Democrats against Republicans - instead you're supporting some Democrats against other Democrats plus the Republicans? Not a qualitative improvement, if so. All their disagreements are tactical ones about how best to beat up on working people.

Or do you mean: now everyone in bourgeois politics is a "Christian Fascist" and part of the "Bush regime." This hasn't been stated in past RCP rhetoric, or in your past posts. It's even more ridiculous than saying Bush is fascist, of course.

And obviously, you're just saying this now - 'cause the RCP's painted itself into a corner with this whole claim that the Bush regime can't be removed peacefully.

(Why is it wrong? Because if you erase the distinction between bourgeois democracy and fascism, you can't mobilize people against the danger of fascism. You can't convincingly tell people it's worse. As the German CP found out in the 30s - they called everyone under the sun "fascist" and failed to effectively resist Hitler. You're going from Popular Front reformism to that opposite error - but I don't expect the RCP as a whole will.)


For example, Hilary Clinton has an even worse line on Iran than fucking Bush!

These democrats support the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which legalized torture, which not even the Nazis did. These democrats who are in power oppose women's rights to abortion (or at least don't defend it), just like the republicans. They want to invade Iran, just like the republicans (and some of them want to NUKE Iran!). The democrats want to ESCALATE the war in Iraq by adding more troops to "get the job done." These democrats are a part of the fascist Bush regime!

No, they're part of the bipartisan bourgeois-democratic system. Everything you've described is a typical part of bourgeois-democratic politics in a period of capitalist decay.

To pretend othewise, you have to whitewash bourgeois-democratic politics and pretend it's better than it really is. You have to pretend imperialist war and attacks on working people's democratic rights are somehow not typical of bourgeois-democratic politicians.


People need to understand that the term "Bush regime" encompasses both republicans and democrats who follow the theocratic fascist line of Bush.

But of course most people will not understand it, 'cause that's totally counter-intuitive. The idea that Hillary Clinton is "theocratic" is not going to occur to most people, 'cause it's fucking crazy. She's plutocratic - like Bush - and the "Christian Right" hates her passionately.

If the RCP wanted people to understand it, it wouldn't have chosen terms like "Christian Fascist" and "Bush agenda". It woulda said something like: the twin parties of big business, of racism, repression and war.

Unless Chairman Bob is just stupid, he wanted those slogans understood in exactly the way that everyone who hears 'em does understand 'em.

I'm still quite sure that if a Democrat gets into the White House, we won't see the RCP or anyone on the left calling him/her fascist. Wouldn't surprise me if we see that rhetoric scale back now that the Democrats hold both houses of Congress, even.

***

I should more explicitly correct something from earlier. It's too categorical to say no fascist regime can ever leave power peacefully. Well, this gets into which regimes are fascist - but anyway, bourgeois democracy sometimes replaces repressive regimes without an armed overthrow.

But there's some process of struggle and of noticing the handwriting on the wall, usually. Nobody mistakes it for just another bourgeois-democratic election.

RebelDog
10th November 2006, 09:12
The Bush government isn't fascist, its possibly futher right than usual republican governments, its not fascist however. I don't really think that an objective definition of 'fascism' will be available to us but there are comparisons with past labeled fascist governments that can be drawn with fascism concerning the Bush administration and lots that can't.


But there is a deeper theoretical issue here, and it has to do with the relationship between "democracy" and fascism. Antonio Gramsci had a point when he talked about the relationship between the two. From Gramsci's perspective, "democracy" and fascism operate as "two aspects of a single reality, two different forms of a single activity: the activity which the bourgeois class carries out to halt the proletarian class on its path".

This I believe is true. We must remember the fundamental reason why fascist regimes come to power is to protect the ruling class from proletarian rule. Fascism is in a sense the bourgeoise trump card that they play when their stranglehold on power is under threat, when the farce of bourgeois democracy no longer works for them. Bourgeois democracy is working as well as it ever has for the ruling class in the US. The ruling class in the US is among the safest across the world. They don't need fascism. The status quo is their preffered situation.

I think if the Bush administration was a fascist regime we wouldn't be debating it on this board. It would be pretty clear to everyone and it would at least be opposed by some kind of proletarian armed resistance. Fascism is a raising of the stakes in the class war. The bourgeoise in the US have no real reason to raise the stakes at the moment, their perfectly safe with 'their' democracy.

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
10th November 2006, 09:20
America is not technically fascist. However, it is not democratic either. The Democrats are not much different from the Repulicans. I believe they are a branch of the same party. Economically, of course.

Martin Blank
10th November 2006, 20:28
Originally posted by Severian+November 09, 2006 07:49 pm--> (Severian @ November 09, 2006 07:49 pm)So now we've heard from the RCP's unofficial PR rep....does the RCP want to speak for itself? Or any of the other left tendencies who have run their mouths about the "Bush regime" his 2000 "coup", etc.?[/b]

Y'know, one might expect better from you on an issue like this. But then, I think your ego writes rhetorical checks that your intellectually lazy ass can't cash. That's the only reason I can see as to how you can make some of the stupid comments you make, like the above.

"The RCP's unofficial PR rep"? Please! Can't you come up with anything better? I mean, calling us that is less creative than calling the American SWP "Bush's Bolsheviks" -- which at least has some reality behind it, given that they pimped for Bush during the 2000 recount fight in Florida (e.g., accusing the Democrats of trying to steal the election -- that was a good one!).

I always wondered why the SWP made that decision. And then it hit me the other day: The vote count you guys got as a result of the "butterfly ballot" and all the other irregularities and fraud was probably the largest vote total an SWP candidate has gotten -- in Florida or anywhere else! -- in decades. I mean, the amount in Florida exceeded what you got from the rest of the country. You weren't going to let that go for anything in the world (kinda like how the SWP threatens to sue leftwing publishers over copyright issues).

Anyway, I digress....


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
Yes, "corporatist" has the great advantage of vagueness. You've never explained what you mean by it.

Well, maybe not here, although I think I might have before. In any event, we have elaborated on the question in Workers' Republic.


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
But you do make all kinds of Mussolini comparisons and whatnot, so most people are going to take your line as saying Bush is something like fascism. Anyway, not bourgeois democracy.

Exactly. It has not been a bourgeois democracy since 2000. It may still have some of the forms, but the content has changed.


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
By means of Blackshirt violence. Where are Bush's Blackshirts or Stormtroopers? The RCP hawks its papers openly - holds its rallies under the slogan "Drive Out the Bush Regime" - with no violent attack. Your groups chooses to be "clandestine", but that's a choice.

First of all, there is no wooden requirement that this has to be all done by extralegal means -- i.e., Blackshirts and Stormtroopers. Once in power, this work can be carried out by the armed bodies of the state, which has happened when (from their perspective) it needed to happen.


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
More importantly, workers strike - hold rallies of hundreds of thousands of immigrant workers - without having 'em broken up.

No, they just waited until the May 1 rallies were done and then rounded up the participants by the thousands. As for strikes, I can think of several over the last period that seem to tell a great deal:

The west coast ILWU strike -- Bush declared the strike a "threat to National Security", imposed Taft-Hartley and mobilized the military to take over the ports if the union did not end the strike. The union capitulated.

The Northwest Airlines mechanics' strike -- Broken by the scabs of the AFL-CIO and CTW federations.

The Northwest Airlines flight attendants' strike -- The government declared it "illegal" and the strike (the "CHAOS" plan) never happened.

Detroit teachers' strike -- The union capitulated and accepted a concession contract on the eve of the state imposing the provisions of P.A. No. 2, which bans strikes by public employees and imposes massive fines.

So, yeah, the workers might strike, but I wouldn't say that they can do so "without having 'em broken up" -- by the state or by the corporatist union officials. (Incidentally, workers conducted short strikes in Germany, Italy and Poland, and were often able to avoid "having 'em broken up".)


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
That's why the difference between fascism and bourgeois democracy matters. This is bourgeois democracy.

Wishful thinking.


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
Well, that's a mighty pessimistic, even defeatist outlook. I might point out May 1 saw the biggest one-day political strike every in this country - by many, many immigrant workers - huge coordinated days of protest, with huge demonstrations in major cities and little ones in an amazing number of small towns - but you say the working class has been successfully put down.

Do you have any idea about what happened in the days following (and, to a certain extent, in the day preceding)? The ICE raids? The mass arrests, detentions and deportations? The firing of workers -- documented and undocumented? Yes, the May 1 protests were significant and powerful, but the organizers and participants paid a heavy price for them.


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
(Because middle-class protests like the "anti-globalization movement" and the "anti-war movement" have been coopted and forgotten! Little or no loss there.)

The anti-globalization movement was drawing in sections of the working class and compelling them into independent political activity. The "middle-class" character of the movement was beginning to change, due to its size and the force of events. But this process was cut off at the knees after 2000. The antiwar movement, while continuing to draw in working people opposed to the war and occupation of Iraq, has been channeled back into the Democratic Party.


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
Anyway, how was this supposedly done? Obviously not by private fascist gangs, or even cops and soldiers, smashing up rallies or organizations.

See above.


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
But there's no serious reason why they needed fascism in 2000, and don't now. If anything, the upsurge in actions by immigrant workers points in the opposite direction. Popular sentiment around Iraq and the Katrina aftermath also creates the potential for opposition to the ruling class greater than anything going on in 1999 or 2000. The unions haven't become suddenly weaker or smaller under Bush; that's a longer-term process.

It's not so much "popular sentiment" or "popular opposition" that is the issue. "Popular opposition" that is nonetheless atomized and scattered can be controlled. It is organization that is the issue here. In the 1990s, you saw moves by the working class toward greater levels of organization and coordination, both economic and political. That is what they had to stop. They had to stem the tide of working people's organizing and reverse the flow.


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
Most of your "CO-OPTED"s and "FORGOTTEN"s could have been said with about as much truth before the "Bush regime" came along.

Talk about pessimism and defeatism!

I know that your comrades in the American SWP saw the anti-globalization movement as reactionary and see the current antiwar movement as worthless, and I note that these are the only two you seem to deal with throughout this debate.

However, you do have a point about this being a process that began before Bush. I would argue that what we've seen over the last 25-30 years has been a slide in this direction -- a transition from a broken bourgeois democracy to corporatism. Beginning with Ronald Reagan in 1980, and continuing the ascension of Bush to the chief executive position, we saw a succession of Bonapartist presidents, each one doing their part to lay the foundations for what we have today. And, yes, this very much includes Bill Clinton and Al Gore.


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
Just a lot of sophistry. Apparently you're trying to explain away why your line has proven dead wrong, without honestly admitting that it has. Try it sometime - it might not kill you - say "We were wrong. Bush is not a fascist. Hugo Chavez is not leading a socialist revolution. Everyone makes mistakes - we will correct ours honestly."

"Proven dead wrong"?! Give me a break! If anything, it's come down to hating being so damn right. Severian, your problem is that you and your trend of self-described communists have yet to get out of the 20th century. Your program and viewpoint are stuck in the past, and all you can do is substitute wishful thinking, verbal abuse and egotism for your theoretical failures.

You have proven this by your marked inability to even begin to engage the theoretical issues that are raised in opposition to your fragile schema. And this is not a one-time or one-issue deal; every time you are confronted by a theoretical development that does not fit into your narrow and outdated conceptions, you "default" into this abusive and juvenile mode. Whether we are talking about class, the development of the political situation in the U.S., dynamics of oppression or historical issues, you always devolve into an abusive, egotistical and delusional ass.

It almost makes me wonder why I bother to deal with what you raise at all.


Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 07:49 pm
Supposedly there was fascism before, but it's painlessly and without upheaval melting away now. The RCP discounted any such possibility before - said there's no way to drive out the Bush "regime" without a mass upheaval. People who organize coups aren't going to just let themselves be voted out of office. Logical enough, if you grant that Bush is der Fuehrer. I bet if I dug through your stuff I could find something similar.

But never mind that! Fascism is melting away peacefully now! Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia!

Does save you from the need to declare a Democratic administration fascist, just as I predicted! Very convenient.

More of the same delusional wishful thinking. Apparently, Severian missed this comment from the last post I made (but I'll add some emphasis so that maybe Severian will notice):


[email protected] 09, 2006 05:32 pm
We continue to characterize the regime as corporatist. The difference now is that the Democrats are no longer junior partners, but full partners. Let me make this clear: the appearance of "democracy" is not the same as the reality of democracy.

The PATRIOT Acts and Military Commissions Act still exist are will not be repealed; the occupation of Iraq and phony "war on terror" will continue, but will be jointly managed; the corporate welfare state will continue, but the benefits will be better "targeted" to benefit the bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie.

Now, it may be the case that one or two crumbs will be tossed to the population by the corporatists. It does appear that nationalized health care is on the agenda, but this is only because it would relieve the bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie of the burden of keeping up with increasing costs. That, and perhaps an incremental raise in the minimum wage, will may be what the corporatists throw to "the masses" in order to keep them from organizing.

But the need to drive out the Bush regime -- which means Bush and his partners -- remains, and, as we have always argued, this can only be done by the working class.

To be honest, I'm not surprised Severian ignored all of this. As I've said about his method numerous times, he will never let a small fact get in the way of his Big Lies.

Miles

Severian
12th November 2006, 04:57
Originally posted by CommunistLeague+November 10, 2006 02:28 pm--> (CommunistLeague @ November 10, 2006 02:28 pm) I always wondered why the SWP made that decision. And then it hit me the other day: The vote count you guys got as a result of the "butterfly ballot" and all the other irregularities and fraud was probably the largest vote total an SWP candidate has gotten -- in Florida or anywhere else! -- in decades. I mean, the amount in Florida exceeded what you got from the rest of the country. [/b]

Your most ridiculous anti-SWP accusation ever, which is saying something. The opposite is true:
Election results announced November 8 reported that Socialist Workers candidate James Harris received 10,477 votes in the state of Florida, one of 13 states and the District of Columbia where the ticket of Harris and running mate Margaret Trowe were on the ballot. Several hours later the reported vote total had dropped to 589. According to press accounts, Harris had been credited with 9,888 votes in Volusia County, but county election officials later told media sources the initial report was in error.

"Our campaign has asked Florida officials for an explanation of these events," Harris said. "The initial large vote total from Volusia County, if press accounts are correct, was clearly not credible.

"Vote fraud is not an unusual occurrence in capitalist politics in the United States and elsewhere," he noted. source (http://www.themilitant.com/2000/6444/644450.html)

Harris was also quoted in at least one Florida daily paper objecting to the improbably high number of votes for him initially reported in Volusia County and demanding an investigation of whether vote fraud was behind that. The reporter commented it was unusal for a candidate to object to being credited with too many votes.


Originally posted by Communist [email protected]

Severian[/quote
Yes, "corporatist" has the great advantage of vagueness. You've never explained what you mean by it.
Well, maybe not here, although I think I might have before. In any event, we have elaborated on the question in Workers' Republic.

And predictably, you pass up yet another chance to define your terms. Gotta preserve that wiggle room.


As for strikes, I can think of several over the last period that seem to tell a great deal:

The west coast ILWU strike -- Bush declared the strike a "threat to National Security", imposed Taft-Hartley and mobilized the military to take over the ports if the union did not end the strike. The union capitulated.

Both Republican and Democratic administrations have done this to transportation strikes, routinely. At time, Congress has almost unanimous voted to outlaw railroad strikes. In fact, Clinton holds the record for the flimsiest excuse ever for denying the right to strike: an airline strike (TWA?) might inconvenience some travellers.

So again: by pretending this is uniquely or characteristically fascist you are whitewashing bourgeois democracy.


Do you have any idea about what happened in the days following (and, to a certain extent, in the day preceding)? The ICE raids? The mass arrests, detentions and deportations? The firing of workers -- documented and undocumented?

Workplace raids and deportations are actually way down under Bush compared to Clinton. There was a certain flurry of workplace raids around the tiime of the May 1 actions - probably aimed at intimidating immigrant workers. But it wasn't anywhere sufficient in scale to do that - instead, the movement has ebbed because it accomplished its most immediate goal.

The Sensenbrenner Bill is dead. Before millions of workers went into action, it had passed the House. It attempted to make most undocumented workers felons. That threat was a major spur pushing workers into action.


Yes, the May 1 protests were significant and powerful,

Thanks for admitting that. So your contention that workers have been "put down" now compared to 2000 falls apart.

And with it, falls apart your whole Gramsci-quoting business about fascism responding to an alleged threat to bourgeis power in 2000, then melting into democracy since it's no longer needed.

Occurs to me that theory is wrong in general, too: fascist movements don't arise and take power in response to the threat of a rising workers' movement. On the contrary, a rising workers movement attracts towards itself many of the radicalizing, dissatisfied middle-class elements which otherwise might join a fascist movement. It's when the workers' movement goes into decline again - having missed an opportunity for revolution - that fascism becomes the biggest danger. That was the case in Italy, among other examples.


However, you do have a point about this being a process that began before Bush. I would argue that what we've seen over the last 25-30 years has been a slide in this direction -- a transition from a broken bourgeois democracy to corporatism. Beginning with Ronald Reagan in 1980, and continuing the ascension of Bush to the chief executive position, we saw a succession of Bonapartist presidents, each one doing their part to lay the foundations for what we have today. And, yes, this very much includes Bill Clinton and Al Gore.

And yet it's only when Bush allegedly stole an election from the Democrats that you and much of the left suddenly discovered a "coup", "fascism" and a "regime" and so forth.


We continue to characterize the regime as corporatist. The difference now is that the Democrats are no longer junior partners, but full partners.
.....
But the need to drive out the Bush regime -- which means Bush and his partners -- remains, and, as we have always argued, this can only be done by the working class.
.....
To be honest, I'm not surprised Severian ignored all of this

Don't be surprised if everyone else ignores your fine print too, and fails to consider the "Bush regime" as counter-intutitively including the Democrats. Aren't they supposed to ignore it?

See response to Red Heretic above, about the RCP's similar fine print.


It almost makes me wonder why I bother to deal with what you raise at all.

Nobody made ya post in this thread, whiner.

Martin Blank
14th November 2006, 03:20
I don't have either the time or the patience to deal with you at length tonight. Maybe I will later. In any event, a couple of short comments to pass the time.


Originally posted by Severian+November 11, 2006 11:57 pm--> (Severian @ November 11, 2006 11:57 pm)Your most ridiculous anti-SWP accusation ever, which is saying something. The opposite is true:[/b]

Your response (snipped for irrelevance) proves nothing other than you know how to use the quote function.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:57 pm
And predictably, you pass up yet another chance to define your terms. Gotta preserve that wiggle room.

Why don't you just surf your lazy ass over to our website and attempt to read the articles -- that is, if you can adjust your vision so that you actually are able to read every word, and not every third or fourth word.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:57 pm
Both Republican and Democratic administrations have done this to transportation strikes, routinely. At time, Congress has almost unanimous voted to outlaw railroad strikes. In fact, Clinton holds the record for the flimsiest excuse ever for denying the right to strike: an airline strike (TWA?) might inconvenience some travellers.

So again: by pretending this is uniquely or characteristically fascist you are whitewashing bourgeois democracy.

OK, so I talk in my response above about a succession of Bonapartist regimes from Reagan to Clinton, and he still spits his bullshit about "bourgeois democracy" at me? Hello! Do you leave your brain in neutral, Severian?


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:57 pm
Workplace raids and deportations are actually way down under Bush compared to Clinton.

So you backhandedly admit there was a measure of terror prior to 2000. That's a good start, I guess.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:57 pm
The Sensenbrenner Bill is dead. Before millions of workers went into action, it had passed the House. It attempted to make most undocumented workers felons. That threat was a major spur pushing workers into action.

And the alternative will be Bush's slave-labor "guest worker" bill. And it will pass. Hooray!


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:57 pm
Thanks for admitting that. So your contention that workers have been "put down" now compared to 2000 falls apart.

Given what you just said above about the whole basis of the demonstrations, where was the real need to put it down?


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:57 pm
And with it, falls apart your whole Gramsci-quoting business about fascism responding to an alleged threat to bourgeis power in 2000, then melting into democracy since it's no longer needed.

Grow up, Severian. Even if you had made a point, it would only mean that the old axiom is true: even a blind squirrel can find a nut.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:57 pm
Occurs to me that theory is wrong in general, too: fascist movements don't arise and take power in response to the threat of a rising workers' movement. On the contrary, a rising workers movement attracts towards itself many of the radicalizing, dissatisfied middle-class elements which otherwise might join a fascist movement. It's when the workers' movement goes into decline again - having missed an opportunity for revolution - that fascism becomes the biggest danger. That was the case in Italy, among other examples.

And Joe McCarthy? Wasn't he a "pre-emptive fascist", according to Cannon and Hansen?


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:57 pm
And yet it's only when Bush allegedly stole an election from the Democrats that you and much of the left suddenly discovered a "coup", "fascism" and a "regime" and so forth.

Take that argument to the RCP. We've only been around for two years. We don't have a pre-2000 "line" to defend.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:57 pm
Don't be surprised if everyone else ignores your fine print too, and fails to consider the "Bush regime" as counter-intutitively including the Democrats. Aren't they supposed to ignore it?

Um, yeah. I guess that's why the next issue of Working People's Advocate has the banner headline "Partners in Crime" -- because we want people to ignore what we're saying about the Democrats.

You really need some Windex for your crystal balls, Severian.


[email protected] 11, 2006 11:57 pm
Nobody made ya post in this thread, whiner.

I'll remember that, scumbag, when you go whine about my fouw wangwage.

Miles

OneBrickOneVoice
18th November 2006, 07:46
The WCW and RCP are not the same thing at all.

Futants
19th November 2006, 07:21
both the Democrats and Republicans are in it together, and will continue to work with one another to complete their plan. Isn't this common knowledge at this point?

Futants
19th November 2006, 07:25
"bipartisan bourgeois-democratic system"

how would that work exactly?


wouldn't it just be easier to be a libertarian?

AlwaysAnarchy
19th November 2006, 20:56
You should check out the world cant wait organization, it is a good place for finding way to protest against the Bush regime (both Dems and Reps) if you want to fight AGAINST fascism

www.worldcantwait.org

Severian
20th November 2006, 11:01
Originally posted by Futants+November 19, 2006 01:25 am--> (Futants @ November 19, 2006 01:25 am) "bipartisan bourgeois-democratic system"

how would that work exactly? [/b]
I think you just answered your own question:

both the Democrats and Republicans are in it together, and will continue to work with one another to complete their plan. Isn't this common knowledge at this point?

That's what bourgeois democracy is. It's the rule of the super-rich, through an elected parliamentary setup. Sometimes called liberal democracy or Western democracy.



wouldn't it just be easier to be a libertarian?

Sure, it's easy to be a libertarian. Doesn't require you to think at all. It's also utopian and pro-business.


Originally posted by Peaceful [email protected]
You should check out the world cant wait organization, it is a good place for finding way to protest against the Bush regime (both Dems and Reps)

Well, this is a great Exhibit A for me. Here's this clueless individual, who's advocated voting for the "lesser evil" - see earlier thread link - popping up to endorse WCW and the wacky claim that by the Bush regime, y'all mean both Democrats and Republicans.

From his earlier post:
The November elections in the US are a critical time for revolutionaries and those on the progressive Left. They will be held next Tuesday on November 7th. What needs to happen here is a vote against the Bush regime, against the Republican Party and against the most reactionary, the most right-wing and the most anti-revolutionary segment of the political parties in this country.

We must Drive OUT the Bush regime!! And vote strategically for anti-war candidates and the lesser of the two evils.

Why?

Because if a pseudo fascist like Bush remains in power all is lost. All will be much more difficult in terms of making revolutionary change in society. New wars will be launched, possibly a draft, the poor people and dudes in the third world and beyond might get attacked and the prospect for revolution will be nill.

Let us work together, strategically and pragmatically to DRIVE OUT THE BUSH REGIME and usher in a new politics where revolutionary change where progressive change is much more possible!

This is not a vote for the Democrats but a vote to put us in a relatively better situation for America and for the entire world that is where revoltionary change is more possible!!

But oh no, it's not a vote for the Democrats. Christ, the hypocrisy. thread link (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=58134)


LeftyHenry
The WCW and RCP are not the same thing at all.

Oh come on. Everyone knows the RCP organizationally controls the WCW. They wouldn't be promoting it in high gear if they didn't - they never do that for anything they don't control.

They don't even pretend to support any broader concept of united action; "the idea of the left coalition is bankrupt" as Flyby once put it.

AlwaysAnarchy
28th November 2006, 20:13
<_< <_< Severian, I tire of repeating myself...so I wil say this line to you and repeat it again and again so hopefully you get it once and for way cause I&#39;m not repeating myself again.



Originally posted by Me+--> (Me)This is not a call to vote for the Democrats [/b]


Originally posted by [email protected]
This is not a call to vote for the Democrats


Me
This is not a call to vote for the Democrats

There now. Better. Are we understood?

Jeez... Marxists :rolleyes:

Enragé
28th November 2006, 20:55
so what else did you want people to do?

Severian
29th November 2006, 00:57
Right - if not the Democrats, who were you suggesting people vote for? Who else does "the lesser evil" refer to?

Obvious BS, and repeating it doesn&#39;t make it truer. But I think everyone realizes it&#39;s BS, and you are in fact supporting the Democrats.

My point here is that the RCP and "Communist League" are just doing a slightly less obvious version of the same BS....

( R )evolution
29th November 2006, 06:38
Severian, I agree with you 100%. Fuck both parties. As long as the workers vote with the mentality of "lesser evils" they will contuine to be oppersed. Fuck political parties lets start some indepeant movement and crush some shit. That is the way we are gonna get shit done.

kurt
29th November 2006, 09:28
People need to understand that the term "Bush regime" encompasses both republicans and democrats who follow the theocratic fascist line of Bush. Time after time, you keep distorting the meaning of the call to drive out the Bush regime.

Drive out the Bush regime means drive out the entire fascist regime, not just the republicans.

So if Bush leaves office, but the "theocrats" (Republican and Democrat) stay in power you&#39;ll still be calling it the Bush Regime, right?

Martin Blank
1st December 2006, 01:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2006 07:57 pm
Right - if not the Democrats, who were you suggesting people vote for? Who else does "the lesser evil" refer to?

Obvious BS, and repeating it doesn&#39;t make it truer. But I think everyone realizes it&#39;s BS, and you are in fact supporting the Democrats.

My point here is that the RCP and "Communist League" are just doing a slightly less obvious version of the same BS....
Except that the League doesn&#39;t suggest people vote for anyone, and we&#39;ve already made clear our position (http://www.communistleague.org/page.php?110/#01) on the Democrats.

But as I&#39;ve said many times about your "politics", you never let a little fact stand in the way of your Big Lie.

Miles

tecumseh
1st December 2006, 02:02
Interesting .. You would still rather Bush have been elected in 2000 over Gore?