Rebel against the BNP

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Is fighting fire with fire a good idea as far as the BNP and combat 18 are concerned?

[Lord Testicles]

If by fighting fire with fire, you mean fighting them physically, I personally think it is.

[sav]

To fight fire with fire, they must be violent first. It's much better not to let that happen in the first place. :banner:

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 03:48 pm
To fight fire with fire, they must be violent first. It's much better not to let that happen in the first place. :banner:
good point.

[commiecrusader]

I think it depends largely on who fights them back. I'm sorry to say this but if black people fight back it will just add fuel to the BNPs racism. If white people fight the BNP then it's a whole different story.

[Zero]

How about white and black people. It only makes sense.

[Dr Mindbender]

the bnp love it when leftists turn violent because it gives them ammunition to use in their dirty propaganda war. So for that reason alone, the answers no.
Best thing to do is provoke them into being violent and make sure you have a comrade nearby with a camera! :D

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

[if black people fight back it will just add fuel to the BNPs racism. If white people fight the BNP then it's a whole different story.][QUOTE commiecrusader]

What you are saying is what the BNP want, use to remain divided. "If the kids are united, they will never be divided". The whole community must fight the BNP,not just a single ethnic or racial fraction of it, in fact there is no ethnic or racial fraction of a community, if we are to live as equals we must accept each other and see no racial or class barriers.

[The Bitter Hippy]

perhaps commiecrusader could be better phrased as "if white people do not help the fight back (assuming minorites do fight back), it will help the bnp"

We must not be divided, as has been said above. The worst thing is race riots like those in oldham a few years back: this encourages support for the BNP.

Now don't get me wrong, i'm all for breaking some [bone]heads, but it must not be solely the minority community: so white people have to join the fight. By standing aside and not getting involved, when these occasions flare up, the white community divides the community as a whole and allows the BNP to profit by generating race-hate on both sides that would be avoided by white people fighting against them.

The fight must not be conducted by white people, the fight must not be abandoned by white people under the excuse that it is not their problem.

[Folk The System]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 08, 2006 03:51 pm
the bnp love it when leftists turn violent because it gives them ammunition to use in their dirty propaganda war. So for that reason alone, the answers no.
Best thing to do is provoke them into being violent and make sure you have a comrade nearby with a camera! :D
i don't think this is justification for not fighting them. if most of their heads are smashed in i think that will kind of hamper the amount of energy they can put into their propoganda war.

[sav]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 08, 2006 03:51 pm
the bnp love it when leftists turn violent because it gives them ammunition to use in their dirty propaganda war. So for that reason alone, the answers no.
Best thing to do is provoke them into being violent and make sure you have a comrade nearby with a camera! :D
The BNP will be like this regardless if they are attacked or not. Say a BNP activist gets a bit cocky in a pub, and someone stands up to him. That person is immediatly either an immigrant, ethnic minority or filthy red.

They don't need fuel for their fire, it burns on regardless. It realy wouldn't suprise me if they started staged fights themselves for a bit of publicity.

[Red October]

i dont know much about the bnp as i am an american, but i dont think you should just go out and attack them without provocation. if they attack you, then beat the shit out of them and ge it on film, but if you attack first it just makes you look like a bunch of thugs. you cant go out and practice random acts of violence justb ecause someone belongs to a particular party. to quote malcolm x, "Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

[sav]

Originally posted by Red October [email protected] 08, 2006 10:07 pm
i dont know much about the bnp as i am an american, but i dont think you should just go out and attack them without provocation. if they attack you, then beat the shit out of them and ge it on film, but if you attack first it just makes you look like a bunch of thugs. you cant go out and practice random acts of violence justb ecause someone belongs to a particular party. to quote malcolm x, "Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."
You're obviously not familiar with the Antifa.

[Red October]

true. i dont have alot of experience with confrontational action against nazis because there isnt much of that going on in Raleigh, North Carolina. my personal experience with fascists is limited mostly to one of my best friends, who happens to be a semi-fascist, though less so nowadays. and hes not a racist fascist either. and hes bi too. quite a messed up dude, but cool very nonetheless.

[The Bitter Hippy]

Red October: does the fact that you would be on opposite sides of guns in the revolution not bother you and your fascist friend? are you prepared to kill him if he stands in the way of the revolution? (sorry for digression)

[Red October]

it does bother me sometimes, and i've told him about it but we're cool. lately he's been moving away from fascism, especially since he came out. and no, i wouldnt kill him because i know he would'nt take part in an armed anti-revolutionary action.

[Janus]

Attacking the violent tendencies of the BNP wouldn't be a bad idea but one needs to be careful in that they are a legitimate political party and any unprovoked and severe attacks on them may only increase their popularity.

[An archist]

Whatever you do, don't go 'just ignore them and they'll go away'
They wont, it's been tried, you need to keep fighting them while they're still small, militant anti fascist action!

[commiecrusader]

Yeah I think Jac Bastien and Bitter Hippy are correct. Black people alone cannot fight the BNP as it will fuel the flames but if all ethnicities unite to fight them then victory is inevitable.

[commiecrusader]

Plus on Bitter Hippy's point about fascist friends or whatever, I have one extremely capitalist best friend and one who thinks no matter how much I explain that Nazism is the same as socialism but it doesn't bother me much. Sometimes it does, but as RedOctober said, I know they wouldn't violently oppose a revolution.

[Reaperman]

Where I live in Dagenham some twats who thought they were hard Anti fascists, put a large brick through a window which had a BNP poster in it.

It was the only poster in the street. What these idiots did not consider was the the window belonged to a 78 year old woman. Two days later there were 6 posters up in that street.

All the hard work we had done leafletting and doorstep knocking to stop the BNP was wasted by a moronic act and the BNP gained support. As they were saying, outside left wing thugs, were attacking anyone who did not agree with their views, Who were the Nazis now. it worked and their councillor was elected.

Please dont do this kind of recklass act, it makes us look worse than them. If you are going to get physical with them make sure you can fight, because reports of BNP thugs beating Left wing activists (all to common) are almost as bad they make us look like muppets.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Folk The System+November 08, 2006 07:02 pm--> (Folk The System @ November 08, 2006 07:02 pm)
Ulster [email protected] 08, 2006 03:51 pm
the bnp love it when leftists turn violent because it gives them ammunition to use in their dirty propaganda war. So for that reason alone, the answers no.
Best thing to do is provoke them into being violent and make sure you have a comrade nearby with a camera! :D
i don't think this is justification for not fighting them. if most of their heads are smashed in i think that will kind of hamper the amount of energy they can put into their propoganda war. [/b]
feel free, but dont be surprised when your face turns up on 'redwatch' a week later.

[sav]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 10, 2006 03:56 pm
feel free, but dont be surprised when your face turns up on 'redwatch' a week later.
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=55525

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by sav+November 10, 2006 04:02 pm--> (sav @ November 10, 2006 04:02 pm)
Ulster [email protected] 10, 2006 03:56 pm
feel free, but dont be surprised when your face turns up on 'redwatch' a week later.
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=55525 [/b]
Masks are all well and good, but they can be torn in the heat of the moment and physical violence per se still doesnt improve the image of the left wing. The reason the BNP are starting to do well is because theyve started to get 'suited and booted' and theyve left their hardman image by the wayside.

[anti-authoritarian]

Didn't the SSP have a punch up with some of their members in Glasgow last year?

[Zero]

SSP?

[sav]

Scottish Socialist Party

[Faceless]

Thank you Reaperman! One of the only voices of reason in this thread! The point is not to kick the shit out of single BNP members. If the logic that fascism could have been prevented in germany if just enough SA thugs were beaten up was true, then we wouldn't need to look to the working class to carry the revolution to success. We only have to beat up enough right-wingers!

The shocking thing is that on a board called "revolutionary left", no one has taken a class perspective. Take Barking/Dagenham where Reaperman lives. If I'm not very much mistaken (and I probably am) Dagenham, a working class area, has the greatest number of council houses in one area - about 35,000 or thereabouts, built to house the Ford workers. In the past few years Ford has been closing down, people have lost their jobs, Barking and Dagenham has some of the highest poverty rates in Britain and the Labour council does shit for the working people living there. This tells us two things:

1) The vote for the BNP is a protest against Labour, coming from working-class, traditionally Labour-voting people. In poor areas of Sandwell, nearer where I live, Labour lost two councillors I believe to the BNP.

2) This vote for the BNP does NOT represent resurgent fascism, as these thugs are not being used by big-business to smash a militant working class (unlike the Nazi's SA, Mussolini's Fascist squads), and do not have a mass base within the petty-bourgeoisie and lumpenproletariat. Although there is racism in these areas, the people who voted BNP did so out of protest to Labour; their traditional party.

The conclusion is that the only way to fight Fascism is to build, in the communities, in the trade unions and in the Labour party, a militant fighting tendency which can act as a real alternative, and which can truly represent the interests of the workers and the poor.

This isn't even a question of violence or non-violence

[The Bitter Hippy]

well its true that lots of BNP success is due to people being duped into believing that they aren't racist filth, but to be honest not many of us care. The activists are the ones that need their heads broken, the local organizers.

And Reaperman: being a 78-year-old woman does NOT excuse you for being a BNP supporter. I also doubt that those who put up BNP posters were planning to vote labour to start with: they just declared their intentions. People should have put bricks in THEIR windows as well, if you ask me.


what needs to be done is create a viable, socialist, working class alternative to labour. The lib dems are seen (quite rightly) as a middle class liberal movement for people in trendy areas of the south east, and the socialist parties are invisible.

(of course, that's just to stop people voting BNP. Don't get confused that i'm advocating ballot-revolution please!.)

[bolshevik butcher]

So bitter hippy you want to launch yet another botched up socialist attempt at a mass workers party? Good luck to you! What will this one be called? The biritsh bolshevik leninist workers proletarian vangauard party marxist-leninist?

Faceless' analysis is correct, no the fact aht she was 78 doesn't excuse it. However this is not what is being disputed. What is being argued is that this did not help anti-fascism at all and turned people to the BNP, who are seen as an alternative.

[Reaperman]

Exactly butcher, thank you.

Bitter Hippy, :blink: You have totally missed the point. I did not state that because she was 78 gave her a right to put up a BNP poster, but when relativelty normal and largley undecided people, are shown violence against someone who is 78 doing what is, after all her political right, this will alienate the left and fuel the right wings position. To simply say they were showing their true colours is rubbish. The British people have always resented being forced to do things that they dont want to do and they love the underdog. What better underdog than a 78 year old woman having her house bricked. That is not tough street action, its cowardly and bloody political suicide. :wacko:

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2006 11:39 pm
Exactly butcher, thank you.

Bitter Hippy, :blink: You have totally missed the point. I did not state that because she was 78 gave her a right to put up a BNP poster, but when relativelty normal and largley undecided people, are shown violence against someone who is 78 doing what is, after all her political right, this will alienate the left and fuel the right wings position. To simply say they were showing their true colours is rubbish. The British people have always resented being forced to do things that they dont want to do and they love the underdog. What better underdog than a 78 year old woman having her house bricked. That is not tough street action, its cowardly and bloody political suicide. :wacko:
Yes, they love the underdog as long as its tied up in a red white and blue ribbon. <_<

Theres no bigger underdog than the british far left yet we&#39;re no closer to a revolution. While i dont support beating up nazis, i think we need a more pro-active attitude.

[Okocim]

I think physical confrontation is a good idea with the bnp, BUT we have to remember that we have to defeat them at the ballot boxes as well. It&#39;s all well and good kicking the shit out of some nazi twat, but if that&#39;s just a single footsoldier then it&#39;ll make no difference of whether a bnp councillor gets in or not in that area. We have to combine physical confrontation with other anti-fascist action such as leafletting areas where the bnp are running and ripping down/postering over their posters.

[fashbash]

Okocim, great point, we can&#39;t beat the BNP through violence alone (although as my name suggests, I&#39;m not against kicking these scum seven shades shitty). We also need to
defeat them at the ballot boxes as well. This can only be a chieved through raising the profile of the left in the UK.

It&#39;s time for the socialists to raise their heads above the parapet: leafletting, nationwide campaigns, reasoned debate. As far as fighting fire with fire goes, it&#39;s important to do so whenever it can be done. These thugs understand pain, so lets make them intimate with it. They don&#39;t understand reasoned argument, so lets confuse them with it&#33;

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Ye with the money the BCP have had we may see some sort of a campaing, as iv never seen a leftist poster in Swansea, but lots of BNP stickers. We should rip all their posteters down.

[The Bitter Hippy]

butcher: uh, no... No marxism-leninism here. Just hating nazis and willingness to see them all bricked.

Reaperman: sure, people are going to be against bricking the windows of 78-year-olds, but they aren&#39;t going to change their vote because of it. And no, the act didn&#39;t help anti-fascism because the people who did it didn&#39;t follow it up by bricking all the newly-postered windows as well. People must understands that it hurts to be a nazi, and one window doesn&#39;t cut the mustard.

Jac: the reason we haven&#39;t seen big campaigns like the BNP have is that there simply aren&#39;t enough commies committed enough. Money isn&#39;t too much of an issue until you get to the national level. The BNP&#39;s success in propaganda is because they have a dedicated support base.

And as i think i&#39;ve said before, bashing individual nazi&#39;s, while fun and useful, isn&#39;t the way to do it. The way to do it is to seriously hospitalize or permenantly eliminate the local organizers and party leaders. Pity political assasination is so damned difficult in the UK.

[Dr Mindbender]

And as i think i&#39;ve said before, bashing individual nazi&#39;s, while fun and useful, isn&#39;t the way to do it. The way to do it is to seriously hospitalize or permenantly eliminate the local organizers and party leaders. Pity political assasination is so damned difficult in the UK.
No, no and no. This will only-
-Martyr the BNP and give them public support

-Give propaganda to the leftist-hating tabloids.

-Probably provoke the same &#39;hospitalisation&#39; and &#39;assasination&#39; of leftist organisers and leaders. (on which point we&#39;ll have no come-back if it was our lot that struck first)

[Invader Zim]

Apparently Nick Griffins daughter Jen is at my university in one of the Halls of residence on campus - I also live on campus.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Invader [email protected] 19, 2006 04:03 am
Apparently Nick Griffins daughter Jen is at my university in one of the Halls of residence on campus - I also live on campus.
Can you say hazing?

[fashbash]

I hope you&#39;re not suggesting anything Invader Zim...

[Reaperman]

Violence was always the weakness of the Right in this country, people dont like bullies in the UK anyway. Now the BNP have dropped the flight jacket and boots brigade they can claim to be respectable. Lets not fall into this trap of becoming the &#39;New Nazis&#39; by doing what largley they have abandoned.
And if you do, wear a mask.... :ph34r:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Zero+November 19, 2006 07:42 am--> (Zero @ November 19, 2006 07:42 am)
Invader [email protected] 19, 2006 04:03 am
Apparently Nick Griffins daughter Jen is at my university in one of the Halls of residence on campus - I also live on campus.
Can you say hazing? [/b]
Nah, Frat bullshit is just that; bullshit. And we don&#39;t have Fraternities anyway.

I&#39;m not going to do anything. Though my friend was saying it would really piss Nick off if he, a staunch socialist, could woo his daughter.

[Reaperman]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 18, 2006 12:46 pm

And as i think i&#39;ve said before, bashing individual nazi&#39;s, while fun and useful, isn&#39;t the way to do it. The way to do it is to seriously hospitalize or permenantly eliminate the local organizers and party leaders. Pity political assasination is so damned difficult in the UK.
No, no and no. This will only-
-Martyr the BNP and give them public support

-Give propaganda to the leftist-hating tabloids.

-Probably provoke the same &#39;hospitalisation&#39; and &#39;assasination&#39; of leftist organisers and leaders. (on which point we&#39;ll have no come-back if it was our lot that struck first)
Spot on, we will make them seem like the victims.

[Anton]

well I believe a combination of both physical and educational action is needed. I have never lived in the UK, so maybe I don&#39;t have a very relevant point of view on it.
Planning to move to Britain after about 2 years though.

[Zero]

Originally posted by "Invader_Zim"
woo his daughter.
Yes&#33; Or even better, convert her&#33; XD

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2006 07:49 pm
I hope you&#39;re not suggesting anything Invader Zim...
He wouldn&#39;t be hurting a human being: He would be hurting a Nazi.

[luxemburg89]

i enjoy reading the BNP&#39;s website, its REALLY funny. search it in google and go on the "your say" bit. It&#39;s hilarious. They always contradict themselves one idiot said "i became disillusioned with britain because of the influx of foreigners and immigrants, so my family and i have moved to new zealand."
No need to rebel against the BNP - it seems they will destroy themselves through contradiction.

However this is not really a laughing matter. The BNP and their friends the Conservative Party, have an abundance of support in my city Winchester, supposedly a Liberal Democrat constituency, due to the increased racism and anti-muslim reports in the media. It is disgusting. The scariest thing is that many of them are students. one said to me "im conservative because i believe in working for my money" my reply was "you&#39;ll be working for someone elses money"

The people of winchester can die their skin yellow all they want - but they always bleed blue.

[Joby]

That&#39;s one of the nice things about living in America.

You can have a &#39;Vote Socialist&#39; sign out, and if anybody comes over to take it down you can then display your 12 gauge. If anyone really wanted to fuck with you, all it takes for them to do is make a threat and take a step onto your property before you show them you mean business.

That may be one of the reasons you can demonstrate for any cause in the US and not have to worry about getting the shit beat out of you. Now, when it comes to the government arresting you for some bullshit reason, that&#39;s a different story. And I wouldn&#39;t try this if I was a minority (w/o money/lawyer) either...

[Whitten]

Its a shame there isnt a real Social Democratic Party in the UK. It could pick up the disillusioned ex-labour voters before the BNP get them and, lets face it, a reformist left wing party in Parliament is better than any other party in parliament. (I&#39;m not suggesting it as an alternative to revolution, mind you).

[luxemburg89]

what&#39;s combat 18? sorry if thats me being ignorant but i havent heard of them before. I&#39;m guessing they&#39;re a militant fascist group?

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2006 04:51 pm
what&#39;s combat 18? sorry if thats me being ignorant but i havent heard of them before. I&#39;m guessing they&#39;re a militant fascist group?
Yup. Most directly linked to Hitler. 1 being A...for Adolf. And 8 being H...for Hitler.
So combat 18 means combat adolf hitler. So basicly they are neo-Nazi thugs. I think they supply security for BNP rallies

[luxemburg89]

thanks mate. in which case theyr a bunch of 23-1-14-11-5-18-19

23 being w

[An archist]

:lol:
68&#33;