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Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
8th November 2006, 11:52
Im having some trouble understanding anarchism, and communism for that.
In an anarchist society, who would make the laws, who would make all the policies etc.? The people would control their work and own the means of production, but they couldnt control the country, could they? If so would it be a direct democracy?
And i think Marx proclaimed that communism would come after socialism, so after a revolution, from capitalism, we must establish socialism then the state would wither away, and thus leave us with communism/anarchism? Please correct and teach me.

Lord Testicles
8th November 2006, 14:14
Originally posted by Jac_Bastian Posted on Today at 12:52 pm+--> (Jac_Bastian Posted on Today at 12:52 pm)In an anarchist society, who would make the laws, who would make all the policies etc.?[/b]
The people would.


Originally posted by Jac_Bastian Posted on Today at 12:52 pm+--> (Jac_Bastian Posted on Today at 12:52 pm)The people would control their work and own the means of production, but they couldnt control the country, could they?[/b]
Could you expand on this a bit?


Jac_Bastian Posted on Today at 12:52 [email protected]
If so would it be a direct democracy?
I think its safe to say that most if not all anarchists here would like to see a form of direct democracy.


Jac_Bastian Posted on Today at 12:52 pm
communism would come after socialism, so after a revolution, from capitalism, we must establish socialism then the state would wither away, and thus leave us with communism/anarchism
Anarchists dont believe we need a transitional socialist state to reach communism.

Check out these links,
www.libcom.org.uk
www.prole.info
www.marxist.com
sorry those are all the links I can think of right now.

Son of a Strummer
8th November 2006, 18:16
im having some trouble understanding anarchism, and communism for that.
In an anarchist society, who would make the laws, who would make all the policies etc.? The people would control their work and own the means of production, but they couldnt control the country, could they? If so would it be a direct democracy?

It’s such a complicated subject that it cannot be addressed in one post. For my part I think the range of differences between authentic socialism and anarchism are fewer and narrower than many people tend to assume.

First, the notion that the political structures of the soviet union and other “etatist” regimes were true to the spirit and ideals of socialism should be rejected. The kind of socialism that Marx basically approved of,even in transitional stages, and saw liberatory potential in, is represented by the Paris Commune. To quote Branko Horvat from his “Political Economy of Socialism”….


The commune as is well known introduced universal suffrage, recallable representatives, rotation of functionaries (who were to receive worker’s wages), and mass political participation.”

All of the above features are comparable to institutions generally promoted by anarchists to ensure that their values of autonomy and self-government are realized. Moreover Horvat notes that,


The state as an instrument of legitimized violence by the ruling class, is surely not necessary in a classless socialism. This conclusion caused great confusion. In bourgeois thinking, it is dismissed as utopian. In etatist thinking, it is endlessly postponed until the “higher stage of development.” The consequences are similar: state power increases. The root of the confusion is to be found in the dual role of the modern state: it is an instrument of repression, but it also provides public services…It is only the repressive function of the state that is supposed to wither away.”(Horvat- Political Economy of Socialism, 287)

Once we acknowledge the extent to which there are commonalities, both in values and in the specific institutions promoted, it becomes more possible to pinpoint the key differences and engage in constructive discussion. What are the key differences? I will try to tackle the question by quoting an a anarchist, Takis Fotsopoulos, specifying the conditions for an authentic democracy, while interspersing a possible socialist response. http://www.inclusivedemocracy.org/fotopoul...usive_entry.htm (http://www.inclusivedemocracy.org/fotopoulos/brincl/inclusive_entry.htm)


Anarchist:

#democracy is grounded on the conscious choice of its citizens for individual and collective autonomy and not on any divine or mystical dogmas and preconceptions, or any closed theoretical systems involving natural or economic ‘laws’, or tendencies determining social change.

Socialist: A socialist would agree with the rejection of supernatural rationales and closed theoretical systems. However she would probably insist that history shows that economic conditions play a forceful role in determining consciousness and constraining the range of options by which society can be organized.



Anarchist:

#that there are no institutionalised political processes of an oligarchic nature. This implies that all political decisions (including those relating to the formation and execution of laws) are taken by the citizen body collectively and without representation;

Socialist: agrees with the rejection of institutionalized oligarchy. Believes that some key decisions such as establishment and ammendments to a constitution are best taken by the citizen’s assembly without representation. However, to insist on direct involvement in all matters of legislation and execution would, particularly due to factors of geographical dispersion and complexity due to population and diversity of preferences in a developed society, invite costly degrees of inefficiency which can be mitigated by selected uses of delegation and representation without unduly sacrificing a vision of a classless self-governing society. To quote Horvat, “In general the rational interest of the citizen consists in just two components: a) that political decisions be made in accordance with their preferences; and b) that administration be efficient. To accomplish this, citizens elect representatives whom they trust and hire professionals for administrative jobs. From time to time they evaluate their representatives and functionaries, and those whose work is found unsatisfactory are fired. In general, self-government means not that each citizen will solve all his problems by himself, but that appropriate agencies of society are at his disposal to do the job.” (The Political Economy of Socialism-323)


Anarchist:

# that there are no institutionalised political structures embodying unequal power relations. This means, for instance, that where authority is delegated to segments of the citizen body for the purpose of carrying out specific duties (e.g., serving in popular courts, or regional and confederal councils, etc.), the delegation is assigned, on principle, by lot and on a rotational basis, and it is always recallable by the citizen body. Furthermore, as regards delegates to regional and confederal bodies, the mandates should be specific.

Socialist: I do not think a socialist should disagree with this. However the real difference is that the socialist would give more direct decision-taking power over certain policy decisions to delegates and representatives whereas for the anarchist the delegate is a functionary who is more severely constrained in his actions by his constituency.


Anarchist:

#that all residents of a particular geographical area (which today can only take the form of a geographical community), beyond a certain age of maturity (to be defined by the citizen body itself) and irrespective of gender, race, ethnic or cultural identity, are members of the citizen body and are directly involved in the decision-taking process.

Socialist: This is the principle of inclusiveness or universal suffrage to which every respectable socialist adheres.

A final point is that while the socialist might see the administration of the government apparatuses as a domain for a professional, largely permanent group, the anarchist tends to see this as a danger to the integrity of the system. According to anarchists, while administrators should meet qualifications it is better for there positions to be rotated and accessible to the citizenry as a whole rather than permanent. Of the six distinction functions of a self-governing society, namely: Legislative, Adjudicative, Executive, Administrative, Oversight and Recruitment, only administrative functions are professional positions.

Finally, as one way of countering the potential for government to be coopted by coalitions of delegates, representatives or administrative professionals socialists like Horvat have proposed the formation of institutions, elected by the general assembly, to perform, on a rotating basis, an overseeing or ombudsman role of bodies of delegated authority and over the recruiting process for administrative professionals.

Those are the differences. I personally do not see a reason to choose one vision over another since they are both conjectural. A revolutionary society can use resources such as these in the course of their experimentation.

Marx Lenin Stalin
10th November 2006, 01:15
It wouldn't


Anarchism has been a massive failure everywhere - everywhere it has been tried to be attempted it failed.

Marx and Stalin already conclusively proved that Anarchism is bunk over 100 years ago.

Cryotank Screams
10th November 2006, 01:27
Originally posted by Marx Lenin [email protected] 09, 2006 09:15 pm
It wouldn't


Anarchism has been a massive failure everywhere - everywhere it has been tried to be attempted it failed.

Marx and Stalin already conclusively proved that Anarchism is bunk over 100 years ago.
No, they didn't; furthermore, Anarchism hasn't theoretically been proven bunk at all, yes a couple of attempts have failed but so has the USSR, and every other attempt at Communism; they have resulted in blood soaked failures, and or have degraded into some crypto-capitalist state.

apathy maybe
10th November 2006, 02:05
Originally posted by Marx Lenin [email protected] 10, 2006 12:15 pm
It wouldn't


Anarchism has been a massive failure everywhere - everywhere it has been tried to be attempted it failed.

Marx and Stalin already conclusively proved that Anarchism is bunk over 100 years ago.
Fuck off troll.

As to the original question, Blackberry posted a very good piece http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=6421 with a number of links. Also see "What makes an anarchist ..." http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=28053

And don't forget An Anarchist FAQ http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secA5.html that is the section on Anarchism in Action. The full FAQ http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html is very large, but has so much information that you should not need anything else. A very good work.

Damn and I almost posted this in reply to this http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1292206003 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=57982&view=findpost&p=1292206003)
Damn trolls.

(Oh, should play the dinosaur game anyone want to?)

RedLenin
10th November 2006, 02:14
In an anarchist society, who would make the laws, who would make all the policies etc.?

First off, "law" is a shaky word. If law is defined as a decree that is made by a governing body which requires enforcement by a body (police), then anarchists reject laws. When it comes to policies, anarchists believe that the masses of the people themselves, through a federated system of directly democratic councils and congresses, will govern themselves. It basically goes from the bottom up, starting with the communal assembly all the way up to the international assembly, through a system of mandated and recallable delegates. This insures that ultimate power rests at the bottom, with the people themselves.


but they couldnt control the country, could they?

Well, countries wouldn't exist, as this would run the risk of nationalism. Rather, i envision regions, which would simply be based on geographic areas. And yes, a bottom up system of directly democratic federated councils of mandated and recallable delegates would work on a region-wide and even world-wide scale.


And i think Marx proclaimed that communism would come after socialism, so after a revolution, from capitalism, we must establish socialism then the state would wither away, and thus leave us with communism/anarchism?

Yes, this is Marx's vision of the "dictatorship of the proletariat", which anarchists reject. However, there are Marxists, generally defined as council communists or left communists, who seem to see Marx's vision of a "state" as being comprised of democratic workers councils. So really, there is not much conflict between anarchist ideas and council communist ideas as far as i can see, except for some tactical differences. I think it mainly comes down to the fact that anarchists and marxists define the state differently. Marxists see the state as the means by which one class oppresses another. Anarchists see the state as a centralized, hierarchical instrument wielded by a minority in order to oppress the majority. Anarchists utterly reject the idea that our definition of a "state" needs to be established as a "transition period".


Marx and Stalin already conclusively proved that Anarchism is bunk over 100 years ago.

First, there is not a damn thing in any of Marx's writings that could even vaugly be considered close to Stalin's totalitarian ideas. Also, how exactly do two people 'conclusively prove' the illegitimacy of a particular socialist theory? The most they could do would be to critique it. In the case of Marx, his debate with Bakunin was mostly a matter of misunderstanding each others ideas, in my opinion. Plus, Marx's only real critique of anarchism was tactical in nature. He concured with the anarchists in desiring a classless, stateless, non-hierarchical society in the future.

Demogorgon
10th November 2006, 02:17
I think the genuine question I would have to anarchists is how you organise complicated project that require the co-operation of very large numbers of people. Do you elect temporary leaders while these are going on?

RedLenin
10th November 2006, 02:50
I think the genuine question I would have to anarchists is how you organise complicated project that require the co-operation of very large numbers of people. Do you elect temporary leaders while these are going on?

It would work the same way as I described above. If it required the cooperation of a large number of affinity groups/communes, each group/commune would directly democratically elect and mandate a delegate. These delegates would meet in a council and fullfill their mandate.

Here's an example. One region (made up of a number of communes) is trying to decide whether to use a particular piece of environment for productive purposes. Each commune that would be affected by this decision holds an assembly on the matter and comes to a decision on the issue. A delegate is elected and is responsible for relaying this decision to the regional council. Whichever option has the most votes is the one that is employed. That's how I think it would work. But it should be kept in mind that the people themselves make anarchism, and so long as it is consistent with anarchist principles, the system of the future may be quite different than the one i outlined above.

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
10th November 2006, 09:53
But what if the people where badly educated on, immigration for example, and did not see its econaomical values etc. and banned it, thus also killing people by sending them back, and creating more ilegal imigrants controlled by organised criminals. I think this happend in a direct democracy in Switzerland. This is the primary aims of the BNP etc. and is wrong, but if the people decide all we could do is educate them on the values of immigration, and try to persuade them not to ban it? would there be a police and a justice system of some sotrs?

Black Dagger
10th November 2006, 10:34
Originally posted by Jac_Bastian+--> (Jac_Bastian)But what if the people where badly educated on, immigration for example, and did not see its econaomical values etc. and banned it [/b]

It's not possible to 'ban' immigration in an anarchist society, there is nation-state, no 'national' border, and no state to 'protect' or patrol the non-existant national border.


Originally posted by Jac_Bastian+--> (Jac_Bastian)
I think this happend in a direct democracy in Switzerland. [/b]

Switzerland has one of (if not the most) strict citizenship systems in the world, its a very racist/parochial country, not an anarchist society, though they use a form of direct democracy in making decisions (such as determing the migrant flow) this is meaningless within a racist and nationalist capitalist and state system.


Originally posted by Jac_Bastian

but if the people decide all we could do is educate them on the values of immigration, and try to persuade them not to ban it?

'The people' are not idiots, 'we' don't need to 'educate' them, as if 'we' are their enlightened teachers, and opposition to national borders is something that is intrinsic to anarchist philosophy and if this philosphy is being seized on by the people this opposition will develop consequently in their consciousness.

If a society has undergone an anarchist revolution and established an anarchist society, given the strong current of anti-racism in anarchist philosphy, and the obvious anti-statism (so nation-states, national borders etc), it's highly unlikely that the scenario you describe could eventuate.


[email protected]

would there be a police and a justice system of some sotrs?

Police, no, justice system of sorts yes.

Here's a better explanation than i can be bothered writing :P

http://geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/secI5.html#seci58

Anarchist FAQ

Therefore, while anarchists reject the ideas of law and a specialised justice system, they are not blind to the fact that anti-social action may not totally disappear in a free society. Therefore, some sort of "court" system would still be necessary to deal with the remaining crimes and to adjudicate disputes between citizens.

These courts would function in one of two ways. One possibility is that the parties involved agree to hand their case to a third party. Then the "court" in question would be the arrangements made by those parties. The second possibility is when the parties cannot not agree (or if the victim was dead). Then the issue could be raised at a communal assembly and a "court" appointed to look into the issue. These "courts" would be independent from the commune, their independence strengthened by popular election instead of executive appointment of judges, by protecting the jury system of selection of random citizens by lot, and by informing jurors of their right to judge the law itself, according to their conscience, as well as the facts of a case. As Malatesta pointed out, "when differences were to arise between men [sic!], would not arbitration voluntarily accepted, or pressure of public opinion, be perhaps more likely to establish where the right lies than through an irresponsible magistrate which has the right to adjudicate on everything and everybody and is inevitably incompetent and therefore unjust?" [Anarchy, p. 43]

In the case of a "police force," this would not exist either as a public or private specialised body or company. If a local community did consider that public safety required a body of people who could be called upon for help, we imagine that a new system would be created. Such a system would "not be entrusted to, as it is today, to a special, official body: all able-bodied inhabitants [of a commune] will be called upon to take turns in the security measures instituted by the commune." [James Guillaume, Bakunin on Anarchism, p. 371] This system would be based around a voluntary militia system, in which all members of the community could serve if they so desired. Those who served would not constitute a professional body; instead the service would be made up of local people who would join for short periods of time and be replaced if they abused their position. Hence the likelihood that a communal militia would become corrupted by power, like the current police force or a private security firm exercising a policing function, would be vastly reduced. Moreover, by accustoming a population to intervene in anti-social as part of the militia, they would be empowered to do so when not an active part of it, so reducing the need for its services even more.

Such a body would not have a monopoly on protecting others, but would simply be on call if others required it. It would no more be a monopoly of defence (i.e. a "police force") than the current fire service is a monopoly. Individuals are not banned from putting out fires today because the fire service exists, similarly individuals will be free to help stop anti-social crime by themselves, or in association with others, in an anarchist society.

Of course there are anti-social acts which occur without witnesses and so the "guilty" party cannot be readily identified. If such acts did occur we can imagine an anarchist community taking two courses of action. The injured party may look into the facts themselves or appoint an agent to do so or, more likely, an ad hoc group would be elected at a community assembly to investigate specific crimes of this sort. Such a group would be given the necessary "authority" to investigate the crime and be subject to recall by the community if they start trying to abuse whatever authority they had. Once the investigating body thought it had enough evidence it would inform the community as well as the affected parties and then organise a court. Of course, a free society will produce different solutions to such problems, solutions no-one has considered yet and so these suggestions are just that, suggestions.

As is often stated, prevention is better than cure. This is as true of crime as of disease. In other words, crime is best fought by rooting out its causes as opposed to punishing those who act in response to these causes. For example, it is hardly surprising that a culture that promotes individual profit and consumerism would produce individuals who do not respect other people (or themselves) and see them as purely means to an end (usually increased consumption). And, like everything else in a capitalist system, such as honour and pride, conscience is also available at the right price -- hardly an environment which encourages consideration for others, or even for oneself.

sav
10th November 2006, 12:12
Originally posted by Jac_Bastian+November 10, 2006 09:53 am--> (Jac_Bastian @ November 10, 2006 09:53 am)But what if the people where badly educated on, immigration for example, and did not see its econaomical values etc. and banned it, thus also killing people by sending them back[/b]
If people had the power to impose their decisions on others, then it would not be anarchy. Malatesta describes the workings of an organisation congress in his 'Anarchism and Organisation'. I believe that any sort of congress or council post revolution would act in a similar manner.


Anarchism and Organisation
Thus for an anarchist organization congress, in spite of all the disadvantages from which they suffer as representative bodies... are free from authoritarianism in any shape or form because they do not legislate and do not impose their deliberations on others. They serve to maintain and increase personal contacts among the most active comrades, to summarize and encourage programmatic studies on the ways and means for action; to acquaint everybody with the situation in the regions and the kind of action most urgently needed; to summarize the various currents of anarchist opinions at the time and to prepare some kind of statistics therefrom. And their decisions are not binding, but simply suggestions, advice and proposals to submit to all concerned, and they do not become binding and executive except for those who accept them and for as long as they accept them. The administrative organs they nominate -- Correspondence Commissions, etc. -- have no directive powers, do not take initiatives except for those who specifically solicit and approve of them, and have no authority to impose their own views, which they can certainly hold and propagate as groups of comrades, but which cannot be presented as the official views of the organization. They publish the resolutions of the congresses and the opinions and proposals communicated to them by groups and individuals; and they act for those who want to make use of them, to facilitate relations between groups, and cooperation between those who are in agreement on various initiatives; each is free to correspond with whoever he/she likes direct, or make use of the other committees nominated by specific groupings.

P.L.U.C.K.
10th November 2006, 19:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2006 02:14 am
Well, countries wouldn't exist, as this would run the risk of nationalism. Rather, i envision regions, which would simply be based on geographic areas. And yes, a bottom up system of directly democratic federated councils of mandated and recallable delegates would work on a region-wide and even world-wide scale.
GOD DAMNIT!!! i thought i had invented that system of government were anarchists form states... i was going to call it tommunism... :(