Ortega

[Noah]

What do you guys think of him?

I think he's the best person for election but he looks more like a social democrat and he's quite a strict christian :wacko: I'm not discriminating but when I heard Ortega and 'Marxist revolutionary' I thought he'd be athiest type of guy but the BBC said he's a Christian who wants to concentrate on the welfare state...and I saw him eating some of that circular bread they give out in church (for free!!!!!).

Who are the sandinistas?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

The Sandinistas were a revolutionary group, but since the fall they've strayed farther and farther away from their socialist roots. They split during this into the Sandinistas and Sandinista Revisionists or something like that which is democratic socialist. In anycase, Ortega's presidency will at best look like Chavez's Venezula but more likely Lula's Brazil.

[The Grey Blur]

Ortega's election is another part of the leftward trend in Latin America. It may not be revolutionary as yet but it does illustrate that workers are gaining more and more consciousness, an excellent sign in such an exploited region as Latin America.

Have their been any factory/land seizures in Nicaragua a la Venezuala?

[encephalon]

Since his ouster, Ortega has largely replaced his marxist tendencies with liberation theology, and has long since stopped calling himself a communist or marxist.

I don't really put much hope into his election, but I do find it a rather hilarious slap in the face to the US. It'll be funny, at least, until the US crushes nicaragua's economy and topples the government.. again.

[Janus]

Yes, like the others have said, Ortega has changed profoundly since his Sandinista days.


Who are the sandinistas?
Last thread on the Sandinistas.

Sandinistas (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=55675)

[Joby]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2006 09:38 pm
The Sandinistas were a revolutionary group, but since the fall they've strayed farther and farther away from their socialist roots. They split during this into the Sandinistas and Sandinista Revisionists or something like that which is democratic socialist. In anycase, Ortega's presidency will at best look like Chavez's Venezula but more likely Lula's Brazil.

How can you blame them for changing their stance--it'd be the destruction of the country if they didn't.

Give it a while to see if they'll join the Bolivarian revolutionary axis. Only when the revolution has gained enough stregnth can it become one in the truest sense, else it be destroyed.

The beast is big and strong, it would be foolish to take it head on just yet, especially without a superpower USSR to back you up. Then again, it's not like the USSR did much for Nicaragua when it was a superpower...

[Joby]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2006 09:59 pm
Since his ouster, Ortega has largely replaced his marxist tendencies with liberation theology, and has long since stopped calling himself a communist or marxist.

I don't really put much hope into his election, but I do find it a rather hilarious slap in the face to the US. It'll be funny, at least, until the US crushes nicaragua's economy and topples the government.. again.
Maybe, just maybe Ortega would have the allies to slap back?

[BreadBros]

Ortega seems to be fairly reactionary in a lot of his views. In case you all missed it, I started a thread here a while ago on how Nicaragua just outlawed ALL abortions, Ortega and the official Sandinista party supported it (although some dissident factions opposed it apparently). Like others, I wouldnt expect any particularly progressive actions from him, I'd be shocked (in a good way) if there were nationalizations or land redistribution. However, the good thing about it is that if elected (which it appears he will be, according to recent tallies), he will be a part of the Chavez anti-imperialist bloc forming in Latin America w/ Castro, Morales, Kirchner to a degree. In that regard his election means that US influence on Latin America is weakening and with more people like him elected it frees up the leaders to hopefully eventually break away from imperialist domination. Hopefully he doesnt turn out like another Lula (in Brazil) though, and move to just be a moderate.

[chebol]

http://www.counterpunch.org/kozloff11072006.html

[RedAnarchist]

Nicaragua's former leader, Daniel Ortega, has won the country's presidential election.
The one-time revolutionary has 38%, nine points ahead of his conservative rival Eduardo Montealegre, with more than 91% of votes counted.

Washington has warned that Nicaragua could lose American aid if Mr Ortega - a US foe in the 1980s - is elected.

Mr Ortega needed to win 40% of votes, or 35% and a five-point margin, to win outright and avoid a second round.

Mr Ortega led Nicaragua from 1979 to 1990.

Mr Ortega says he has changed from the leader who seized property from the wealthy during the 1979 Sandinista revolution.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6117704.stm


I know he isn't what he used to be, but I hope somewhere Thatcher is about to find out about this :lol:

[Tekun]

Who knows what he's gonna do...one day they call him a communist, the other u see him shaking hands and agreeing with the priest

Ortega was once a idealistic, and dedicated to uplifting Nicaragua using Cuba as a model
However, after years of American aggression, pressure, and downright socio-economic oppression, he was forced out due to the problems brought on by the Americans (civil war, economic collapse, regional instability,...)

Now, who knows what he's gonna do...though I feel that he'll end up like Bachelet or Lula
Some of his positions as of right now have seemed more like Lula's than like Chavez or even Morales
Only time will tell, but don't get your hopes up mates

Fuck bourgeois elections, massive workers uprising is the only precursor to revolution

[Leo]

I think he was telling the press how much he respected private property lately <_<

[RebelDog]

How can you blame them for changing their stance--it&#39;d be the destruction of the country if they didn&#39;t.

So what does Ortega do now? Neo-liberal reforms? Is he the newest south-american &#39;if you can&#39;t beat them join them&#39;. That will do the Nicaraguan poor the world of good. Nicaragua is still suffering from the US-sponsored destruction and violence in the eighties. South America is a real problem for the US at the moment. Don&#39;t fight on their terms, increase the pressure, concern oneself with the welfare of Nicaraguan people not the US elite.


Washington has warned that Nicaragua could lose American aid if Mr Ortega - a US foe in the 1980s - is elected.

How very democratic.


Mr Ortega says he has changed from the leader who seized property from the wealthy during the 1979 Sandinista revolution.

Is he trying to say sorry? I&#39;ve been a bad boy and I shouldn&#39;t have upset the rich people and also gone against US wishes. A telling sign of what bourgeois democracy ultimately does for working-class movements.

[Chavez]

Can´t really understand the reactions on this board after Ortegas win.

Instead of being glad, that it wasn´t one of the right-wing parties that took power once again you only critizise the potential changes of his mind or politics.
Personally I am not really aware of Ortegas new strategies, but to know his past and the complete support he receives from Castro and Chavez should be enough to give him a chance.

I truly don´t know what to think about those people in this board, that keep dooming elections and everyone who nears himself to social-democracy or reforms.
It makes me believe that the left will never succeed because it destroys itself in the inside instead of sticking together.
And stop talking about "the revolution that is about to come". It will never happen as long as you just sit on your arses. doing nothing but writing in the internet and smoking weed.


I know a bunch of posts will follow after this, saying I am just a bourgeois or s.th, but I am really sick of hypocrites that demand the revolution but aren´t willing to do anything for it.




ps: excuse my poor english

[Noah]

I know a bunch of posts will follow after this, saying I am just a bourgeois or s.th, but I am really sick of hypocrites that demand the revolution but aren´t willing to do anything for it.

This claim assumes that you know every other member on this board, which is abusrd..

Of course Ortega is better than the right but not anything spectacular, he has become subservient to the middle and higher classes. Basically the Nicaguargian people are still still eating the same shit but from a different spoon because BOURGEOIS democracy is crap.

[bolshevik butcher]

To a large extent i sympathise with what chavez(hugo himself? :P ) has said, certianly unfortunatley Ortega is not the revolutionary he once was. However he did stand on a platform of eliminating &#39;savage capitalism&#39; as he put it. Cleraly his victory was one for the left in Nicaragua.

[coda]

He does have the full support of Castro and Chavez. But, how far to the left will he be able/want to go with his policies ---- his vice president is a former Contra&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 05:58 pm
Can´t really understand the reactions on this board after Ortegas win.

Instead of being glad, that it wasn´t one of the right-wing parties that took power once again you only critizise the potential changes of his mind or politics.
Personally I am not really aware of Ortegas new strategies, but to know his past and the complete support he receives from Castro and Chavez should be enough to give him a chance.

I truly don´t know what to think about those people in this board, that keep dooming elections and everyone who nears himself to social-democracy or reforms.
It makes me believe that the left will never succeed because it destroys itself in the inside instead of sticking together.
And stop talking about "the revolution that is about to come". It will never happen as long as you just sit on your arses. doing nothing but writing in the internet and smoking weed.


I know a bunch of posts will follow after this, saying I am just a bourgeois or s.th, but I am really sick of hypocrites that demand the revolution but aren´t willing to do anything for it.




ps: excuse my poor english
But how much better will it get for the working class and poor in Nicaragua?

BBC

Mr Montealegre conceded to his rival, but said he would hold him to account for his promises to promote business and free trade.

We all know where neo-liberal policies like this leads. I bet my hat that within a decade Ortega is voted out with the the Nicaraguan poor living in the same old shit. Ortega has effectively bent to the demands of the Nicaraguan/US ruling class to win power and sold his principles. Whats so worth celebrating? What is Ortega going to do that is so new?

BBC

But he says his revolutionary days are behind him - and his main priority is to secure foreign investment to help to ease widespread poverty.

He wants to open the doors to "foreign investment" which will ease the suffering of the Nicaraguan poor. Has it not struck a former marxist revolutionary that they want to plunder Nicaragua not ease poverty. What was the previous administration&#39;s policy with regards to this?

I&#39;m not going to call you a member of the bourgeoise, I don&#39;t know you. What I am simply saying is I have seen and heard it all before. What really will eliminate poverty in Nicaragua? Do we give the same old model another chance see if it works this time?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6117704.stm

[grove street]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 05:58 pm
Can´t really understand the reactions on this board after Ortegas win.

Instead of being glad, that it wasn´t one of the right-wing parties that took power once again you only critizise the potential changes of his mind or politics.
Personally I am not really aware of Ortegas new strategies, but to know his past and the complete support he receives from Castro and Chavez should be enough to give him a chance.

I truly don´t know what to think about those people in this board, that keep dooming elections and everyone who nears himself to social-democracy or reforms.
It makes me believe that the left will never succeed because it destroys itself in the inside instead of sticking together.
And stop talking about "the revolution that is about to come". It will never happen as long as you just sit on your arses. doing nothing but writing in the internet and smoking weed.


I know a bunch of posts will follow after this, saying I am just a bourgeois or s.th, but I am really sick of hypocrites that demand the revolution but aren´t willing to do anything for it.




ps: excuse my poor english
Very true. Progress is progress my friend no matter how small.

Did Karl Marx ***** and whine about how the Paris Commune wasn&#39;t left-wing enough?

No he didn&#39;t, he praised them for their efforts and pointed out their mistakes and what they should have done.

The little power that is given to the workers in Venezula, Boliva and Nicargua through the left-wing reforms will only make the working class hungry for more, leading to more reforms and eventually revolution.

[RebelDog]

Very true. Progress is progress my friend no matter how small.

Its progress for a marxist revolutionary to join the neo-liberal if-you-can&#39;t-beat-em-join-em-club? That seems like going backwards to me. Ortega has submitted to the forces that are complicit in the problems of Nicaragua and the world, not the solution. He gets his throne the workers get more of the same.

[phoenixoftime]

When I read of his "foreign investment & business pledges" my head screamed &#39;traitor&#33;&#39; - sounds like another case of what we had here in NZ in the 1980s - a left-wing government with neo-liberal economic policy. What happened in our first world country? Economic collapse, skyrocketing poverty, painful economic transition. And the government voted out. A third world country reaching Damascus this way? Hehe, I&#39;m doubtful - especially with the US throwing its toys out of the cot.

But I agree with Chavez, Ortega&#39;s victory might not be tremendous progress, but it isn&#39;t going as far backwards as a right-wing win. Hopefully this swing to the left in South America will continue to build.

[Tekun]

Did Karl Marx ***** and whine about how the Paris Commune wasn&#39;t left-wing enough?


Is that an exact quote? :rolleyes:
The Paris Commune is considered to be the only true socialist government to have ever taken power in a major city/state
It encompasses most Marxist principles, and in fact Marx influenced and played a role in it
I think you&#39;re getting it mixed up with his criticism of the Commune&#39;s lack of defence, which he did disagree with but only because that lack of defence brought about its downfall


Either way, I agree and like how Ortega is anti-US and all, but that will not defeat poverty and exploitation in Nicaragua, furthermore it only lulls ppl to sleep and does not spark that drive for revolution or popular uprisings which are the true precursors of socialism