East Germany and Berlin wall - was it good there?

[CopperGoat]

Hey everyone, i just read this today in theory @ che-lives. I read that east germany had a good life standard and that life conditions were good. I knew it was a dictatorship, but i don't know in terms of food and shelter. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanx.

[thursday night]

Here is a pamphlet distributed in the early sixties by the socialist government of the German Democratc Republic (East Germany) educating and defending the Berlin Wall. I think you shall enjoy reading through this.

Newspapers, radio and television report daily about Berlin and West Berlin in many languages throughout the world. They often speak or write of a state frontier, or of a wall.

It may be very difficult for you to form a valid picture from all these reports which frequently contradict each other. We want to help you to do so.

We tried to imagine what would be the considerations of a citizen of a foreign state if he wanted to gain clarity about the problems in West Berlin. And we would like to reply to these considerations.

1st CONSIDERATION. Where, exactly, is Berlin situated?
A glance at the map suffices: Berlin lies in the middle of the German Democratic Republic, exactly 180 kilometres (112.5 miles) to the east of its western frontier. A quite normal locality for the capital of a state. Only one thing is not normal at all: that a hostile, undermining policy and disruptive acts have for years been carried on from the western part of this city against the surrounding state territory. West Berlin Mayor Willi Brandt called West Berlin a "thorn in the side of the GDR". Would you like to have a thorn in your side? We don't either! But Brandt even proclaims quite frankly: "We want to be the disturber of the peace."

2nd CONSIDERATION. Did the wall fall out of the sky?
No. It was the result of developments of many years standing in West Germany and West Berlin. Let us recall preceding events: In 1948 a separate currency reform was introduced in West Germany and West Berlin - the West German reactionaries thereby split Germany and even west Berlin in to two currency areas.

The West German separatist state was founded in 1949 - Bonn thereby turned the zonal border into a state frontier.

In 1954 West Germany was included in NATO - Bonn thereby converted the state frontier into the front-line between two pact systems.

The decision on the atomic armament of the West German Bundeswehr was made in 1958 - thus, Bonn continues to aggravate the situation in Germany and Berlin. Repeatedly the annexation of the GDR is proclaimed as the official aim of Bonn policy, most recently in a statement of the Adenauer Christian Democratic Union (CDU), on 11 July 1961.

Thus did the anti-national, aggressive NATO policy create the wall which today separates the two German states and also goes through the middle of Berlin. The Bonn government and the West Berlin Senate have systematically converted West Berlin into a centre of provocation from where 90 espionage organizations, the RIAS American broadcasting station in West Berlin (Radio in American Sector) and revanchist associations organize acts of sabotage against the GDR and the other socialist countries. Through our protective measures of 13 August 1961 we have only safeguarded and strengthened that frontier which was already drawn years ago and made into a dangerous front-line by the people in Bonn and West Berlin. How high and how strongly fortified a frontier must be, depends, as is common knowledge, on the kind of relations existing between the states of each side of the frontier.

3rd CONSIDERATION. Did the wall have to come?
Yes and no. We have submitted more than one hundred proposals for understanding, on the renunciation of atomic armament, and on the withdrawal of the two German states from NATO or the Warsaw Treaty. If things had gone according to our proposals the situation in Germany would not have been aggravated and, consequently, there would have been no wall. Especially since 1958 the GDR and the Soviet Union have repeatedly told the West Berlin Senate, the Bonn government, and the western powers: Be reasonable! Let us eliminate the abnormal situation in West Berlin together. Let us start negotiations. Why did Bonn and West Berlin reject these proposals? Why did they, instead, step up agitation to an unprecedented degree before 13 August? - The wall had to come because they were bringing about the danger of a conflict. Those who do not want to hear, must feel.

4th CONSIDERATION. What did the wall prevent?
We no longer wanted to stand by passively and see how doctors, engineers, and skilled workers were induced by refined methods unworthy of the dignity of man to give up their secure existence in the GDR and work in West Germany or West Berlin. These and other manipulations cost the GDR annual losses amounting to 3.5 thousand million marks.

But we prevented something much more important with the wall - West Berlin's becoming the starting point for a military conflict. The measures we introduced in 13 August in conjunction with the Warsaw Treaty states have cooled off a number of hotheads in Bonn and West Berlin. For the first time in German history the match which was to set fire to another war was extinguished before it had fulfilled its purpose.

5th CONSIDERATION. Was peace really threatened?
Indian journalists R. K. Karanjia shall give you the answer to the question. He published a sensational report from Berlin in the biggest Indian weekly, Blitz in which the world public is warned against the West Berlin powder-keg. K. R. Karanjia wrote:

"It (the protective wall of the GDR) served the cause of world peace since it halted the advance of the German neo-Hitlerites toward the East, forced the world to recognize the reality of the division of Germany and thus supports negotiation." (retranslated from German)
If further evidence of the aggressive intentions of the West German government is needed it is provided by the authoritative West German employers' newspaper, the Industriekurier, which regretfully wrote, exactly 19 days after 13 August 1961: "A reunification with the Bundeswehr marching victoriously through the Brandenburg Gate to the beating of drums - such a reunification will not take place in the foreseeable future."

Bonn heads were really haunted by ideas of such a victorious entry. That would have meant war.

6th CONSIDERATION. Who is walled in?
According to the exceedingly intelligent explanations of the West Berlin Senate we have walled ourselves in and are living in a concentration camp. But in that case why are the gentlemen so excited? Obviously, because in reality their espionage centres, their revanchist radio stations, their fascist solders' associations, their youth poisoners, and their currency racketeers have been walled in. They are excited because we have erected the wall as an antifascist, protective wall against them.
Does something not occur to you? West Berlin Mayor Brandt wails that half of the GDR, including the workers in the enterprise militia groups, is armed. What do you think of a concentration camp whose inmates have weapons in their hands?

7th CONSIDERATION. Who breaks off human contacts?
Of course, it is bitter for many Berliners not to be able to visit each other at present. But it would be much bitterer if a new war were to separate them for ever. Moreover, when the GDR was forced to introduce compulsory entry permits for West Berlin citizens on 23 August in the interests of its security we at the same time offered to open up entry permit offices in municipal railway stations in West Berlin. In fact we opened them and issued the first permits. Who closed them by force? The same Senate of that Mr. Brandt who is today shedding crocodile tears about "contacts being broken"! The GDR has maintained its offer. If we had our way Berliners could visit each other despite the wall.

8th CONSIDERATION. Does the wall threaten anyone?
Bonn propaganda describes the wall as a "monstrous evidence of the aggressiveness of world communism". Have you ever considered it to be a sign of aggressiveness when someone builds a fence around his property?

9th CONSIDERATION. Who is aggravating the situation?
The wall? It stands there quite calmly. Former French Premier Reynaud said already on 19 August 1961, according to UPI: "The sealing-off measures of the East Berlin government did not increase, but lessened, the danger of a third world war." In reality, the situation is being aggravated by persons who play at being the strong man on our state frontier, who are turning West Berlin into a NATO base and daily inciting West Berliners against the GDR. Municipal railway cars are being destroyed, frontier guards attacked and brutally shot, tunnels dug for agents and bomb attacks made on the GDR's frontier security installations. Does that serve relaxation? One must really ask why attacks on the GDR state frontier in West Berlin are not subject to court prosecution as in other states. The Brandt Senate even presents "its respects" to the provocateurs.

10th CONSIDERATION. Is the wall a gymnastic apparatus?
The wall is the state frontier of the German Democratic Republic. The state frontier of a sovereign state must be respected. That is so the world over. He who does not treat it with respect can not complain if he comes to harm. West German and West Berlin politicians demand that "the wall be removed". We are not particularly fond of walls, either. But please consider where the actual wall runs in Germany, the wall which must be pulled down in your and our interest. It is the wall which was erected because of the fateful Bonn NATO policy. On the stones of this wall stand atomic armament, entry into NATO, revanchist demands, anti-communist incitement, non recognition of the GDR, rejection of negotiations, the front-line city of West Berlin.

So, make your contribution to the pulling down of this wall by advocating a reasonable policy of military neutrality, peaceful co-existence, normal relations between the two German states, the conclusion of a peace treaty with Germany, a demilitarized Free City of West Berlin. That is the only way to improve the situation in Berlin, to safeguard peace, a way which can, one day also lead to the reunification of Germany. The wall says to the war-mongers:

He who lives on an island should not make an enemy of the ocean.

[At this spot the brochure includes a map of the German Democratic Republic]

Decide in favour of the recognition of realities. Don't join in the row over the wall. Perhaps YOU don't want socialism. That is your affair.

But should we not come to an agreement jointly to refrain from doing anything that leads to war and do everything that serves peace?

[chamo]

Thats some very informative information thursday night, thank you.

[KRAZYKILLA]

pretty good. gave me more insight into germany.

[CopperGoat]

Thanx. That was so much information.

[Kez]

intresting info, shame its all stalinist fabrication.

The only reason people left GDR was because it was such a shithole. It was not democratic not in communist or liberal bourgeois sense, at least west was liberal bullshit democracy.
East was not a communist area, but a stalinist manifestation where beurocrats rose and the hopes of the people fell, Had there not been that fuckin wall which split so many families the revolution could have spread (if there was socialism in GDR in the first place)

[thursday night]

Well thanks for your illuminating views. I see you too have given into capitalist and Trotskyite lies. No, the GDR was hardly a showcase example of working Marxism-Leninism but as socialists we must do our best to see both sides of the story and realize that the Soviet Union and the Socialist Bloc. was not all bad.

[Just Joe]

i am an anti-Stalinist, but in the 1980's, East Germanys per capita GDP was up there with some western economies. i could be wrong but at one point i think it even rivalled Japans.

to say people left because it was a 'shit-hole', isn't all true. that they left because of the lack of democracy, is undeniable.

[Pete]

Imagine an island. Its GDP per capita is 100 thousand dollars per year. Sound good right? Now imagine that it is populated by 10 individuals. One makes 1million dollars a year, the others are his slaves...

[Just Joe]

what in the hell are you talking about now?

[Cassius Clay]

Taveeshkamo may I ask what 'Stalinist fabrication' has to do with the GDR and the Berlin Wall.

Anyway I don't support the building of the wall and people are right to say that there was a lack of democracy in the GDR. However I won't believe that the GDR was a complete hell-hole, nor would I say the people despised it.

Did the people want to see their families? Ofcourse they did. Did they wan't the fall of the Socialism that did exist in East Germany? Well consider that the old Communists are voted in and that according to the BBC 60% say life was alot better that should answer that question.

I belief Honecker to of been a good man and a genuine Socialist (although with alot of flaws), he was surrounded by revisionists and beuracrates who created precisly that, a massive beuracracy. Ofcourse that the GDR was exploited by Soviet Social Imperialism wouldn't of helped.

Oh yes and back to the 'Stalinist fabrication', this is typhical of revisionists and their ilk (not you Kamo although I doubt we agree on much) for example blaming Stalin for all the abuses of power by the Stasi fourty years after he died.

[RedCeltic]

Cassius Clay:

May I ask you why every one of your posts since being let out of oi is about Stalin? There other topics to talk about you know.

[Edelweiss]

CC, how naive are you? Did I get you right, you think the people fleed from the GDR because they want to see their families? LOL Even the GDR and soviet propaganists (the ones who you are constantly repeating) dared to account that for the death of the duzends of people who lost their lives at the wall.
Don't get me wrong: I don't think the GDR was all bad, but again your distorted view of history is speaking for itself.
I see, it's already a mistake to un-restrict you, obviesly you can't do a post withouth the word "revisionist" in it.

[Cassius Clay]

RedCeltic.

I think I've made two or three posts since I've been allowed back and they all happen to somehow related to Stalin. Although this one is about the Berlin Wall, which I gave my opinion on.

Now as you say I've only just been let back and naturally I would wan't to take part in discussion about Stalin, since I like to think or hope that I know alot about the man. There is no crime here is there? I sure did not start any of these threads, why does it seem you are almost mocking me for defending my view?

Listen RedCeltic I can see your perspective I can assure you I won't flood the place, I just wan't to take part in healthy discussion as I did before I was restricted.

Some people here do or certainly used to only take part in debates on Leon Trotsky, you didn't follow them around did you?

Perhaps Red Celtic you would wan't to PM me to continue this discussion and I'll follow whatever guidlines you wan't as long as they are reasonable and you feel as a moderator I somehow harm the board.


Oh and Malte did you not read my post. I'm totally against the Berlin Wall. But quite frankly I'm not prepared to discuss it with a person who insulted me time and time again without any pretext and even after I offered a olive branch each time you continued with the petty insults.

[Edelweiss]

However, CC, sorry if I get you wrong, but you did say that the people fleed from the GDR, beacuse they wanted to see their families, didn't you? If you did, you are much more stupid than I thought before.
And CC, if you are just using your new posting rights to reapeat your Stalinust arguments again again, you will be re-restricted right away. I mean, didn't you get the intention of the gesture of un-restricting you? Please use your, without question, excellent rhetoric abilities, for other topics, than just on your obsession about your semi-god.

[Cassius Clay]

Quote: from Malte on 6:30 pm on Mar. 23, 2003
However, CC, sorry if I get you wrong, but you did say that the people fleed from the GDR, beacuse they wanted to see their families, didn't you? If you did, you are much more stupid than I thought before.
And CC, if you are just using your new posting rights to reapeat your Stalinust arguments again again, you will be re-restricted right away. I mean, didn't you get the intention of the gesture of un-restricting you? Please use your, without question, excellent rhetoric abilities, for other topics, than just on your obsession about your semi-god.


Oh why Malte do you continue to insult me? Even here you call me 'Stupid' and say I have a 'Obsession'. I do take part in other discussion Malte, I tried to with you but did I get any response? Ofcourse not only insults.

A 'gesture' well I allready said 'Thankyou', and when somebody else suggested I be allowed in the 'Commie-Club' I didn't complicate things by demanding or even supporting that claim because I did not wan't to cause trouble. But I doubt considerably that this 'gesture' was on your part, I won't insult you and go down to your level but to describe you as a bully would I feel be correct. The only reason you did what was right was because pressure was put upon you.


Now about the GDR, your a German you probably know more about it than me. By no means did I mean to give the impression that I thought the only reason the people wen't west was because they wanted to see their families, but that would of been a reason no?

[Edelweiss]

It wasn't me who un-restricted you, it was RC.
I'm fine with it, but I probaply wouldn't have done it by myself, I simply don't want ANY Stalinists on Che-lives at all, I think I have made clear why very well before.

And CC, again, who naive are you? The people fleed from the GDR, because of the oppression they suffered in the Stalinist GDR, which was a state of respression, intimidation and total surveillance, as every Stalinist state was. West-Germans were allowed to visit the GDR to se their families, so why should anybody risk their live and flee from the GDR, just to see his family??? Your argument proves blatant lack of knowledge about the reality in the soviet bloc.

[Cassius Clay]

I actually agree with your assesment of the GDR so I guess your 'naive' aswell. As usual I don't think you've paid one bit of attention to what I actually wrote but just continue with your pre-conceived ideas.

[Pete]

Please! Don't degrade the board into flaming contests, take it elsewhere! Some of us are trying to learn here.

[thursday night]

Back to the original issue of the GDR, I had an interesting discussion with my German language instructor (I take a German language course) about the GDR and the political state of the Federal Republic of Germany today (she is, by the way, a twenty-something who used to live in southwestern Germany but now lives here in Vancouver Canada). She said that the former ruling party of the GDR has renamed itself the Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS) and after the reunification of the two Germanys this party was quite unpopular, but in recent years it has become very popular in the former GDR (it struggles to receive any votes in the west) as the problems of capitalism such as unemployment and so forth arise. Similar situations have taken place in the former socialist state of Bulgaria for instance, where the Bulgarian Socialist Party (former ruling Communist Party) took power by majority in an open election.

Anyways, I just thought I’d share this information with you all.

[Just Joe]

i think the 'former' Communists in the east are simply opportunists. Poland has its former Communist party ruling but they are in on the Iraqi war. i think the situation is the same in Bulgaria and Romania.

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from thursday night on 8:08 pm on Mar. 26, 2003
Back to the original issue of the GDR, I had an interesting discussion with my German language instructor (I take a German language course) about the GDR and the political state of the Federal Republic of Germany today (she is, by the way, a twenty-something who used to live in southwestern Germany but now lives here in Vancouver Canada). She said that the former ruling party of the GDR has renamed itself the Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS) and after the reunification of the two Germanys this party was quite unpopular, but in recent years it has become very popular in the former GDR (it struggles to receive any votes in the west) as the problems of capitalism such as unemployment and so forth arise. Similar situations have taken place in the former socialist state of Bulgaria for instance, where the Bulgarian Socialist Party (former ruling Communist Party) took power by majority in an open election.

Anyways, I just thought I’d share this information with you all.


I voted PDS, and they are by far the least bad political party in Germany. Unfortunetly they didn't made it to the Bundestag at the last national elections, with the result that there is now no leftist opposition in the German parliament.
The PDS has a potential of about 1% in West-Germany and 20-50% of the votes in East-Germany, they are currently ruling in 3 German states in coalition with the Social Democrats. As usual when socialist parties gain some power in capialist states, they are tending to be opportunist, and hypocritical. The PDS is more and more tending to tradional Social Democracy, maybe this developement would be even worser if they wouldn't have been kicked out of the parliament. But they still have communist groups organized within the party such as th "Kommunistische Plattform", and the "Marxistisches Forum", which have only minor imprtance for the national party.
Of course the success of the PDS in East-Germany is a result of the dissatisfaction, and disissulution with the new capitalist system, the East has unemployment rates of nearly 25%, in some areas even 50%.

[thursday night]

Malte: Do you believe the GDR provided (in general) a better life for the average working person? I tend to believe that the Soviet Union and most of the Socialist Bloc. countries did, given the fact that these nations jumping into the wild waters of capitalism has only caused extreme social decay by the way of the quick decline of health care, education, employment rates, crime rates and so forth.

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from thursday night on 2:14 am on Mar. 27, 2003
Malte: Do you believe the GDR provided (in general) a better life for the average working person? I tend to believe that the Soviet Union and most of the Socialist Bloc. countries did, given the fact that these nations jumping into the wild waters of capitalism has only caused extreme social decay by the way of the quick decline of health care, education, employment rates, crime rates and so forth.

Well, that question can't be answered with a simple yes ot no. Germany still provides a large amount of social welfare to it's citizens, there isn't (yet) a predator capialism like there is in the US, we have free heathcare and education, and a strong social net. Still most East-Germans wasn't prepared to the dog-eat-dog menatlity of capialism, which is of course also existising here, and couldn't deal with it. In the GDR, nobody really had to worry about his future, everyone had a job, and the amount of social security was much better than it is now.
Many East-germans had a distorted view of the West, and were blinded by the unlimited amount of available consumer goods, you could say the "Ossies" broke down the Berlin wall to finally eat a banana :).
Live probaply is better for the average working person now, and most East-Germans probaply doesn't miss the Stasi, the problem is that only 75% actually have work, which results in ugly social conflicts (e.g. many young Neo-Nazis). The economy is totally fucked up in the East, and it doesn't look that it's getting any better, the situation is really hopeless and frustrating for the East-Germans.

[Anarcho]

I would be curious to see what the East German viewpoint was of the Berlin Blockade and subsequent airflift campaign.

Malte, care to give a resource on that? Several years ago quite a bit was on the various history channels in the US about it.... pro-western, of course, but I'm hard pressed to see how the blockade could have been a positive thing.