The Homeless

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Personally, my heart always goes out when I see a homeless person on the streets, starving for food and shelter, in the richest country in the world, I live in the US. I feel that I wish there was something I could do I mean I sometimes give them a few coins but I always know that this is stuff that is only temporary, it's not a long lasting 'fix' and it's not going to really change anything: he'll be back tomorrow.

But being that homeless are not workers, they are beggars, how do they fit in with revolutionary left theoreis? Would we guarantee everyone food shelter and clothing?? Well that's what I think should happen cause if the resources are there, no one should be starving at night and since we don't know their lives and their stories, we have no right to judge them. :)

[which doctor]

They are considered to be members of the lumpen-proletariat. The lumpen is a rather broad category that includes everyone from petty-thiefs to homeless and other non-productive members of society. There are many disagreements in the left on whether or not the lumpen can be considered truly revolutionary, although I think most members of the radical left would consider the homeless to revolutionary though.

Post-revolution these people would be given housing if they desired and turned into more productive members of society.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Thank you for that thoughtful reply FOB :)

I am glad to hear most revolutionaries believe in the potential of homeless people, though I heard that Marx did not like the homeless, even though he borrowed money from Engles in a manner similar to that of a beggar <_<

[Vargha Poralli]

Thank you for that thoughtful reply FOB smile.gif

I am glad to hear most revolutionaries believe in the potential of homeless people, though I heard that Marx did not like the homeless, even though he borrowed money from Engles in a manner similar to that of a beggar dry.gif

are you really an @&#036;&#036;|-|013 . try at lest reading Marx and Engels b4 you make stupid assumptions.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Would slaves also be considered part of the lumpenprolteriat??

[Vargha Poralli]

Would slaves also be considered part of the lumpenprolteriat??

no they are not. the slavs are a part of oppressed duroing the ancient times and they don&#39;t necessaarily fit in to modern class lines. so do thge serfs


i recommend you reading the communist manifesto b4 asking these questions . Marx and Engels have clearly explained class theory there and evolution of classes there

got to
http&#58;//www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm

and from revleft itself

http&#58;//www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=26804

[Janus]

how do they fit in with revolutionary left theoreis
They live more or less outside the current system and therefore there is uncertainty as to their "role" though some of them will most likely support the bourgeois as they depend on them for survival. Also, one must take into account that most homeless people are more or less neutral at this point but I would think that some would try to at least work for positive change in the event of a revolution.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 07:24 pm
Would slaves also be considered part of the lumpenprolteriat??
No. They were productive to society.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+November 06, 2006 10:04 pm--> (LeftyHenry @ November 06, 2006 10:04 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2006 07:24 pm
Would slaves also be considered part of the lumpenprolteriat??
No. They were productive to society. [/b]
And the existed before modern interpretations of bourgeois/proletariat.

[Cryotank Screams]

The homeless are the most extreme and saddest victims of the system, regardless of why they are homeless, however I usually give them all the money in my pocket at the time (usually 5 or 10 bucks), or on occasion I asked them if they wanted to go to dinner, or lunch, or breakfast with me, and I will drive them up to a cafe and give them a good meal and talk to them, it&#39;s small but I think it makes them feel at least a little bit better, the only thing we as revolutionaries can do, is support shelters and work to abolish the current system, and replace it with a better one.

[Dimentio]

There are homeless here in Sweden as well, and there are three categories of them.

1. People who have taken too many loans and being unable to pay them back. Many of them were earlier self-employed people with small firms who lost everything they owned in the crisis of 1992-1994.

2. Highly educated people who have turned to alchohol and developed mental illnesses where they believe that they are stalked by government authorities or by celebrities.

3. Some illegal immigrants, mostly from Slovakia and Romania [Romani].

[Dr Mindbender]

Of course the homeless are part of the general proletariat. The only reason they are homeless/unemployed is because capitalism fails to utilise all the labour available to it, in much the same way it fails to distribute the produce the labour according to need.

[Dimentio]

The homeless people in category 1 and 2 usually have apartments, but don&#39;t manage to live there because they tear them up or harass the neighbors because they are alone.

[commiecrusader]

Homeless people would definitely be incorporated into a communist society.

Furthermore, slaves do still exist within modern society, horrible as it is:

Woman jailed in naked slave case (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/6121036.stm)

I think it is completely ridiculous that slaves would support the bourgeoisie. I don&#39;t imagine most slaves enjoy being slaves. The slave is merely capitalism taken one step further, where the workers get nothing whatsoever. If I was a slave I wouldn&#39;t love my master that&#39;s for sure.

[Floyce White]

I get the feeling that none of you have ever been homeless, and neither has anyone in your families or friends.

Lower-class people become homeless when they do not have enough money for rent. It&#39;s that simple. The homeless are not to blame for being homeless--the landlords are to blame, as are the police paid to protect landlording by telling the homeless to "keep moving" so they can&#39;t put up shelters and end their homelessness themselves by building homes.

Some comrades here really should stop saying things like "they&#39;re alcoholics" or "they&#39;re schizophrenics" or the like. Plenty of people in families of landlords have alcoholism or schizophrenia but don&#39;t become homeless because their families own housing and can afford medical care.

[Messiah]

Some comrades here really should stop saying things like "they&#39;re alcoholics" or "they&#39;re schizophrenics" or the like. Plenty of people in families of landlords have alcoholism or schizophrenia but don&#39;t become homeless because their families own housing and can afford medical care.

It simply goes to show that even supposed radicals are not immune to spewing the same tired BS retoric as the people we oppose. You nailed it on the head though, QFT.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 06:30 pm
Personally, my heart always goes out when I see a homeless person on the streets, starving for food and shelter, in the richest country in the world, I live in the US. I feel that I wish there was something I could do I mean I sometimes give them a few coins but I always know that this is stuff that is only temporary, it&#39;s not a long lasting &#39;fix&#39; and it&#39;s not going to really change anything: he&#39;ll be back tomorrow.

But being that homeless are not workers, they are beggars, how do they fit in with revolutionary left theoreis? Would we guarantee everyone food shelter and clothing?? Well that&#39;s what I think should happen cause if the resources are there, no one should be starving at night and since we don&#39;t know their lives and their stories, we have no right to judge them. :)
I chill with alot of homeless people , not on pourpose, Ijust think alot of other people happen to be on some bullshit and I cant hold a long enough conversation with them.

I give alot of homeless people credit.
SOme people are on drugs or lost their shit one by one as the bank took it from them, and others dropped out before that was able to happen- and THOSE people I give props to.
Cause if you got a back pack with a shampoo, a tooth brush a tooth paste lotion face wash and all the nice shit and can play it off, and nice shit to keep you warm enough for yourself, then keep it real.
Some people want to be homeless.
They say "fuck it&#33; you cant win with these devils&#33; I jut want to sleep on the grass, its my fucking grass&#33;"
Our society is too easy to say "fuck it&#33; "
We need a new society.

[kjt1981]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2006 06:23 pm
Homeless people would definitely be incorporated into a communist society.

Furthermore, slaves do still exist within modern society, horrible as it is:

Woman jailed in naked slave case (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/6121036.stm)

I think it is completely ridiculous that slaves would support the bourgeoisie. I don&#39;t imagine most slaves enjoy being slaves. The slave is merely capitalism taken one step further, where the workers get nothing whatsoever. If I was a slave I wouldn&#39;t love my master that&#39;s for sure.
this was more a case of abuse rather than slavery in its conventional sense though wasnt it? Its not like a bourgeois oppressor in a mansion in teh stockbrocker belt bought her from Ghana and made her work for a shiny penny a day and all the gravel she could eat. It was a sickening case though - i was looking at it in Psychology class last week, but still i think more of a case of abuse rather than conventional slavery.

I think this is a strange thread - why wouldnt the homeless be incorporated in a communist society? no reason not to give everyone housing. The reason many are homeless now is because (as others have already pointed out) the capitalist system has let them down - as they are useless within a capitalist framework (ie unprofitable) there is no space for them.

[Dr Mindbender]

In america how many homeless people are ex GI&#39;s and the like?
Here in the UK 80% of the homeless population are ex-servicepeople. Thats food for thought.

[midnight marauder]

One in three, I believe.

[kuhkuh]

I do not have any straight answer to the question about what to do about homess.
At the moment we can give them money or food or speak with them or what ever one can do. But they are victims of the society, they exists because of the system.

We are all educated as too individualists, my private house, my private life. You homeless, you sick, you old or whatever- you are not part of it.

The whole way of thinking should be turned around (basic education) so that we would not think anymore about those homeless, but us who allows one to be on the streests. Simply, people should be thought to take responsabilities of each other, their children, parents, uncles and cousins. Neighbours, and even the strangers.

[anarchista feminista]

Alot of homeless people and beggars choose to live like that in Sydney. I don&#39;t like to give them money to go towards drugs because I know that they need a meal more than that. I think the best thing to offer if they need it is food and someone to talk to. It&#39;s quite sad the local soup kitchen recently shut down so I am desperately hoping to get a food not bombs set up in my area. I live in the western suburbs and I guess like anywhere there are alot of people in tough situations. Even those who aren&#39;t homeless and just want a free meal and company.

[La Comédie Noire]

Actually a significant percent of homeless people have jobs, and are not beggars. They just simply dont make enough money to keep up with the cost of living and have to resort to living out of cars and homeless shelters. If you give me a day i can give you the book i got the statistics from, promise.

As for how i view them in regards to the reveloution. I see them as allies in a war against a common enemy which has victimized us both in different, yet equally henious, ways. We may both take our revenge.

[anarchista feminista]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 08, 2006 11:38 am
Actually a significant percent of homeless people have jobs, and are not beggars. They just simply dont make enough money to keep up with the cost of living and have to resort to living out of cars and homeless shelters. If you give me a day i can give you the book i got the statistics from, promise.

As for how i view them in regards to the reveloution. I see them as allies in a war against a common enemy which has victimized us both in different, yet equally henious, ways. We may both take our revenge.
I believe you :) I suppose I am just talking from personal experience and what happens in my area. We have a pretty high unemployment rate around here. Yeah, I&#39;d just really like to do something to help. Even those who aren&#39;t homeless. But as I said, a Food Not Bombs would be great.

[Exovedate]

It seems to me that the homeless would be a great source of revolutionary fighters, and by fighters i don&#39;t necessarily mean in terms of violence. Just think about it; these people have had everything taken from them by the capitalist system, if anyone should be pissed at the system it&#39;s them. As long as they are willing to pull their own weight in the new society, then I think they would be a welcome addition to the revolution.

[Tekun]

Some comrades here really should stop saying things like "they&#39;re alcoholics" or "they&#39;re schizophrenics" or the like. Plenty of people in families of landlords have alcoholism or schizophrenia but don&#39;t become homeless because their families own housing and can afford medical care.
Well its a proven fact, that many homeless here in the states, are or were alcoholics and/or have had psych problems, whatever they may be, which have worsened their capacity to work and support themselves and as a result have stranded them out on the streets
Im not saying that all of them are alcoholics or have psych problems, but many do, and I think that this is what most of the comrades have been referring to

[Epoche]

There is absolutely no excuse for homeless people. If the question is one about "space" and "supplies" then it is certainly not a question of space and supplies but of distribution, and the distribution of space and supplies, because it is normally owned privately unless it is a public facilty, is subject to bias, prejudices, and bureaucracy.

I only wish to point out the irony that most arguments against the support of the homeless at any cost are not arguments that wish to prove we can&#39;t take care of the homeless but that we choose not to. Again, there is no shortage of resources. This planet is, what, seventy-five percent unoccupied?

I am sick of hearing the argument that the homeless don&#39;t help themselves. Nobody ever truely helps themselves in a material economy...they are made more or less. Eight out of ten homeless people were born into disadvantageous conditions. (I just made that statistic up, btw) The argument then becomes one of trying to prove that the homeless willingly refused several opportunities to "better himself," but what the arguee doesn&#39;t consider is that those opportunities are still dreadfully worse than the opportunities provided for others who were not born into disadvantageous conditions.

Look closely at the argument. Unless the person who raises the argument is also subject to the "alternatives of opportunity," that is, the same opportunities to better himself and the actually choices, he cannot state universally that "betterment" is his decision or that he has any business demanding that the homeless should of taken the shit job for five dollars an hour.

On the other hand, similiar people who are subjected to similiar conditions have the right to offer counsel because they share the same sensual conditions with each other. People of different classes are not working from within the same standards when they establish criteria for the measure of "working" and "being lazy". In shorter words, when the homeless man is scrutinized for not accepting the shit job, he might reply "well you wouldn&#39;t take the job either if it were the last job on earth&#33;"

This is like an apple arguing with an orange. Its entirely sophisticated and rhetorical and another irony is that the arguer didn&#39;t plan it this way, which is to say, he is not purposely being clever and distracting you from the fallacy....he is, rather, doing it by accident, because if he knew it wouldn&#39;t work he wouldn&#39;t use it.

[ laughing ]

[RedCeltic]

There are a lot of misconceptions of homelessness in capitalist society. Many seem to have the misconception that people are homeless because they are lazy and do not wish to work. In fact being homeless is a very difficult and dangerous way to live. Every day is a struggle for survival. A struggle to find food and shelter.

The existence of a homeless contingent in any society only is an indication of the wasteful nature of that society. Capitalism is so wasteful in nature that you can have a larger percentage of abandoned buildings and lots than homeless people. In the city where I went to college for example (Albany NY) There are more than 800 abandoned structures.

There are many factors that can lead individuals to become homeless, yet any way you cut it, the major contributing factor is capitalism. On Long Island New York, due to rising property values, many landlords found ways to evict tenants that were on welfare and received section 8 housing subsidies. They found they could charge much higher rent than section 8 would allow for. Masses of whole families began to fill the shelters, to the point that abandoned motels were taken over by the county in order to have shelter for all of them.

There are a large number of homeless people in the United States who are veterans of the Vietnam war and suffer from PTSD. (As well as a growing number from the current occupation of Iraq.) The US Government has been very reluctant to acknowledge the existence of PTSD, Agent Orange related illnesses, gulf war syndrome, etc. They have become dysfunctional and no longer able to cope with society. They have been thrown away by a government that no longer has use for them. They are in need of serious long term care.

Many people also associate drug homelessness with drug addiction. This may be true for some, yet again this is only a symptom of capitalism. The powerful and highly addictive drugs such as cocaine, heroine, crack, etc, have all been manufactured by a for profit capitalist society. It doesn’t matter that it is an illegal business venture. The production and distribution of the drugs are made purely for capital gains at the expense of the consumer, and no regard for their well being or the detrimental effects it has on society at large.

A socialist society will be more equipped to fill the needs of the people. There are naturally other contributing factors such as environmental catastrophes such as Hurricane Katrina, floods, etc… that cause people to become displaced so there will probably always be some need to help people find adequate housing.

[Red Tomato]

there would be no homeless if all governments were leftist&#33;

[Morag]

Just like any other group or class, I don&#39;t think you can say that homeless people will necessarily do one thing or another in a revolutionary situation. I don&#39;t think it&#39;s wrong to suggest that many homeless people have severe mental or pyschologic problems (in British Columbia, when they cut back services and welfare payments to mentally ill people, the homeless population swelled by almost 300%); the role that these people can play in a revolutionary society will be very much determined by the abilities and interests of each individual. I&#39;ve known plenty of people who chose to opt out of &#39;society&#39; and like to keep moving, who have no interest in securing permanent housing. Casually, I&#39;d say they&#39;d be very sympathetic, as they tend to reject the status quo.

About slaves: there are certainly still slaves in the modern world, whether or not it is legal or open.

[MissLeftistRevolutionary]

Me, myself, believes that no one should have to be homeless. There has to be a way to prevent it. There has to be a way to make the lives of all those homeless people better. And to be honest, America and many other countries aren&#39;t doing enough.