False Leftists

[Comrade Kurtz]

I have found that 90% of those I have encountered on this board are not true leftists. Let me tell you why:

People are asking questions about how to counter arguments made by their friends in debates. They ask questions such as "How do I respond to this?" or "What can I tell this person to make them a communist?" If you can't answer these key questions yourself, you obviously don't understand the theory you advocate.

If you don't understand the theory you advocate, you are doing it to stir up controversy, build up your self-image, or a combination of the two.

You should not devote yourself to any political line of thinking unless you know its ins-and-outs and can counter every point someone else brings up. When you debate, research, and listen, knowledge should shape your politics. Politics should not shape your knowlegde.

Knowledge and experience --> Poltical Beliefs

For many of you, you declare yourself to be communists and anarchists without having any real experience shaping that. In that sense, you are fake. It's begun to piss me off because I gett he feeling that most of you on here really aren't dedicated to anything.

[Enragé]

yah
and you&#39;re the greatest <3

listen
you dont have to fully understand revolutionary theory to want a new, better, truly democratic and free world.

The reason people ask those questions is because they feel the need to spread this idea, to explain to people that it indeed is possible, to expand their "database" of arguments, to bring closer a revolution.

I can tell you, that at this point in time i do not fully understand revolutionary theory, and that a few years ago this was even less so, i however was then, and am now, a communist, a revolutionary at heart, willing to fight and if need be die for the cause.
And i sure as hell dont do this to "stir up controversy"
as a matter of fact i&#39;d rather have it not be controversial, cuz then i wouldnt have to explain time and time again what communism is, that it is possible, that it isnt like Korea or the USSR, and then at the end of it all hear them say "yea it sounds great, but human nature simply makes it impossible", and when you then explain that it doesnt matter if people are selfish they just repeat that sentence

moreover
who the fuck do you think you are?

[BreadBros]

Well you have to realize a lot of the people who come here are young, and while something in their personal life might lead them to leftist beliefs they may not be particularly adept at debating, especially when it comes to theoretical disputes. They just want more help and more knowledge. Are there fake ones? Definitely. But some of them seem "real" too, just because they aren&#39;t versed in theory you shouldnt automatically dismiss them.

[loveme4whoiam]

Don&#39;t be a fucking idiot, of course those who are not completely versed in Marxist/whatever theory can be "true leftists" you damn moron&#33; If it was the case that only those who did have that kind of knowledge were leftists, then there would be a hell of a lot less of us and nothing would ever happen.

More to the point, what about the proletariat. When they engage in class struggle, I sincerely doubt that every single person will have read and understood Das Kapital, the Manifesto, and the myriad other documents necessary for a complete leftist understanding. Yet by their very actions they will be supporting the leftist cause, therefore they are leftists themselves.

Damn, grow a brain for fuck&#39;s sake. More to the point, isn&#39;t it a bit bloody hypocritical that a self-professed Democratic Socialist (your sig) is telling people here that they aren&#39;t true leftists? Idiot.

[Comrade Kurtz]

Look, my point is not that you must know everything about what you believe, as learning shapes a lot of what a person believes. What I mean is that if you cannot devise a response to questions and you ened other people to tell yuo what to say you probably don&#39;t truly believe what you advocate.

[Enragé]

so
according to you
you should have read all of http://www.marxists.org
to be a marxist?

well..
have you read it all?

I can with all honesty say i&#39;ve never read more than 2 articles there.


see how ridiculous your point is?

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 05, 2006 02:04 pm
It&#39;s begun to piss me off
You have begun to piss me off with your "holier than thou," attitude, and I highly doubt you fully know all the "ends and outs," of leftist theory, so don&#39;t prance about like you do, and I seriously doubt anyone here does, we are all learning, and just because you are learning doesn&#39;t make you less of a devoted Leftist.

[Comrade Kurtz]

Of course not. That&#39;s not practical, especially since we are a working class movement. My point is that you ought to know what your talking about before you peldge loyalty to something you may not understand.

NKoS, I will conceed that if you know what you believe in, even if you can&#39;t debate very well, you may very well be a true leftist. However, I would expect you would agree that some of these people who come on here and declare themselves communists but ask us to formulate arguments for them against their friends are playing game more than genuinely believing. If you don&#39;t understand something or cannot develop a response, research it, and if need be change your beliefs. I see no such effort by many on here.

[Comrade Kurtz]

Originally posted by Scarlet Hammer+November 05, 2006 06:26 pm--> (Scarlet Hammer @ November 05, 2006 06:26 pm)
Comrade [email protected] 05, 2006 02:04 pm
It&#39;s begun to piss me off
You have begun to piss me off with your "holier than thou," attitude, and I highly doubt you fully know all the "ends and outs," of leftist theory, so don&#39;t prance about like you do, and I seriously doubt anyone here does, we are all learning, and just because you are learning doesn&#39;t make you less of a devoted Leftist. [/b]
You&#39;ve misudnerstood my post, but that&#39;s my fault for taking such an offensive stance. Read my last post.

[Enragé]

However, I would expect you would agree that some of these people who come on here and declare themselves communists but ask us to formulate arguments for them against their friends are playing game more than genuinely believing. If you don&#39;t understand something or cannot develop a response, research it, and if need be change your beliefs. I see no such effort by many on here.

most attracted to communism in the west, in this unrevolutionary time for us, are attracted primarily by its rebelliousness at first, its defiance, perhaps even some teenage "i&#39;ll be different from my parents"-bullshit comes into the equation (sp?), and they will most definitely not be versed in marxism or anything, which makes sense.
All they would have is some vague feeling that
1. the world how it is now sucks
2. something has to be done

it is our task as those who have transcended this phase, to help others voice this feeling, bring it into coherent thought and out of the realm of mere idealism
not, as you do, ***** at them for not having read the full works of mr Engels, Kropotkin, Marx or whoever


I started out as a 14 yr old boy fascinated by demonstrations in Genova

[loveme4whoiam]

Look, my point is not that you must know everything about what you believe, as learning shapes a lot of what a person believes
Bullshit:

Originally posted by You
You should not devote yourself to any political line of thinking unless you know its ins-and-outs and can counter every point someone else brings up.

So basically what you are saying is that you must be a good debatist/debater (:huh: :lol:) to be a leftist, which is a patent absurdity. I often profess ignorance in a debate - for example, I have practically zero knowledge of post-revolution economics. By your logic I am not a true leftist; to that I reply, fuck you.


If you don&#39;t understand something or cannot develop a response, research it, and if need be change your beliefs. I see no such effort by many on here.
Have you actually read the posts on this forum. Thats what proper debates on this board are - people talking about an issue or thought and being changed by the discussion. Admittedly, some people are set in their ways, and generally those people who have learnt a fair bit about leftism anyway (I do say generally) and have chosen a particular path.

And I&#39;ll echo Scarlet Hammer, this "holier than thou" attitude does piss me off - no-one is holier-than-others, regardless of political knowledge.

[piet11111]

also if you ask qestions here you might find very interesting reponses that grant you a better understanding of different branches of leftist ideology.

poeple that dont ask qestions are the foolish ones.

[rouchambeau]

Some of the best "leftists" are those who have never read a word of Marx, Bakunin, Goldman, etc.

[R_P_A_S]

i think im making great progress since i came here in May. =)

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 05, 2006 12:04 pm
I have found that 90% of those I have encountered on this board are not true leftists. Let me tell you why:

People are asking questions about how to counter arguments made by their friends in debates. They ask questions such as "How do I respond to this?" or "What can I tell this person to make them a communist?" If you can&#39;t answer these key questions yourself, you obviously don&#39;t understand the theory you advocate.

If you don&#39;t understand the theory you advocate, you are doing it to stir up controversy, build up your self-image, or a combination of the two.

You should not devote yourself to any political line of thinking unless you know its ins-and-outs and can counter every point someone else brings up. When you debate, research, and listen, knowledge should shape your politics. Politics should not shape your knowlegde.

Knowledge and experience --&#62; Poltical Beliefs

For many of you, you declare yourself to be communists and anarchists without having any real experience shaping that. In that sense, you are fake. It&#39;s begun to piss me off because I gett he feeling that most of you on here really aren&#39;t dedicated to anything.
Let me tell you something comrade.
Not all of us come here fully understanding communist theory. I know I didn&#39;t. I have been here for a year, and I am still learning about communist theory. sometimes looking things up on a website or in a book, isn&#39;t enough. Like you said, it takes experience. We must ask these questions to gain knowledge of these things. To further develop our theories. I know that when I came here, People probably did not think I was a real communist, and I wasn&#39;t. I joined to learn more about communist theory, not to actually become a communist. and one year later I would know consider myself to be a communist because of the things I have learned here at Revleft. Sure there may be a few fakes here, but you can not denounce us all for asking questions, on how to argue with other people who hold other idealogies. We do not all come here knowing how to do so all. That is all that I will say on the matter

[Demogorgon]

:lol: What is it with certain people here and the need to alienateany potential ally?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 07:50 pm
Some of the best "leftists" are those who have never read a word of Marx, Bakunin, Goldman, etc.
Care to name them? Or are you just posting, yet another one line assertion before buggering off to some other part of the forum. The fact that you&#39;re clearly anti-left scum makes me wonder as to the real purpose of your visits to our forums.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+November 05, 2006 10:55 pm--> (Jazzratt @ November 05, 2006 10:55 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2006 07:50 pm
Some of the best "leftists" are those who have never read a word of Marx, Bakunin, Goldman, etc.
Care to name them? Or are you just posting, yet another one line assertion before buggering off to some other part of the forum. The fact that you&#39;re clearly anti-left scum makes me wonder as to the real purpose of your visits to our forums. [/b]
i actually agree about what he said

people who havent ever read that tend to look at the world differently, instead of the bogged down generally excepted leftist way, which you are coaxed into if you first read books by them, and then analyse the world around you.
To put it simply, it assures that leftism isnt bogged down in 140 year old writings and remains "fresh", new, relevant.

[lithium]

I don&#39;t align myself to any particular leftist belief as of yet, simply because I just don&#39;t understand them all.

However, I do believe that profiteering at the expense of others is wrong; corporate influence/control on governments is wrong; hierarchy (bosses vs workers, for example) is wrong; racism is wrong; sexism is wrong; unfair trade is wrong; government corruption is wrong. Because of reasons like this I feel that the &#39;control&#39; of a society should be left to the people who make up the society: the workers.

This is basically why I am leaning to the left. The sooner the workers are truly represented, the better.

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 07:02 pm
I don&#39;t align myself to any particular leftist belief as of yet, simply because I just don&#39;t understand them all.

However, I do believe that profiteering at the expense of others is wrong; corporate influence/control on governments is wrong; hierarchy (bosses vs workers, for example) is wrong; racism is wrong; sexism is wrong; unfair trade is wrong; government corruption is wrong. Because of reasons like this I feel that the &#39;control&#39; of a society should be left to the people who make up the society: the workers.

This is basically why I am leaning to the left. The sooner the workers are truly represented, the better.
dido, but even then there is more to communism then than this. That is why I am not afraid to ask questions here to my fellow leftists, because I know no other leftists, so I rely on my comrades here at Revleft to develop my theories.

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 12:50 pm
Some of the best "leftists" are those who have never read a word of Marx, Bakunin, Goldman, etc.
Wow thats a bold yet true statement right there.

[cenv]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 05, 2006 06:04 pm
I have found that 90% of those I have encountered on this board are not true leftists. Let me tell you why:

People are asking questions about how to counter arguments made by their friends in debates. They ask questions such as "How do I respond to this?" or "What can I tell this person to make them a communist?" If you can&#39;t answer these key questions yourself, you obviously don&#39;t understand the theory you advocate.

If you don&#39;t understand the theory you advocate, you are doing it to stir up controversy, build up your self-image, or a combination of the two.

You should not devote yourself to any political line of thinking unless you know its ins-and-outs and can counter every point someone else brings up. When you debate, research, and listen, knowledge should shape your politics. Politics should not shape your knowlegde.

Knowledge and experience --&#62; Poltical Beliefs

For many of you, you declare yourself to be communists and anarchists without having any real experience shaping that. In that sense, you are fake. It&#39;s begun to piss me off because I gett he feeling that most of you on here really aren&#39;t dedicated to anything.
I see where you&#39;re coming from. Some people are communists just because it&#39;s a "cool" label and don&#39;t even have a general understanding of the theory. Those people are indeed "false leftists", but they constitute a small minority of RevLefters in my opinion. I don&#39;t think you need to be able to describe historical materialism or surplus value down to the last detail to call yourself a Marxist. If you understand the general points of the ideology you advocate well and are truly interested in becoming somewhat politically active, you&#39;re a not a "false leftist" in my opinion, even if you are not yet well-versed in the specific details of whatever ideology you identify with. That&#39;s my take on it.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 05, 2006 01:04 pm
I have found that 90% of those I have encountered on this board are not true leftists. Let me tell you why:

People are asking questions about how to counter arguments made by their friends in debates. They ask questions such as "How do I respond to this?" or "What can I tell this person to make them a communist?" If you can&#39;t answer these key questions yourself, you obviously don&#39;t understand the theory you advocate.

If you don&#39;t understand the theory you advocate, you are doing it to stir up controversy, build up your self-image, or a combination of the two.

You should not devote yourself to any political line of thinking unless you know its ins-and-outs and can counter every point someone else brings up. When you debate, research, and listen, knowledge should shape your politics. Politics should not shape your knowlegde.

Knowledge and experience --&#62; Poltical Beliefs

For many of you, you declare yourself to be communists and anarchists without having any real experience shaping that. In that sense, you are fake. It&#39;s begun to piss me off because I gett he feeling that most of you on here really aren&#39;t dedicated to anything.
Although I do not think those who ask questions are "false leftists", you make a good point. Some people ask questions or make posts with titles like "how do i convert ___ to communism" or "my conversion" or some other shit, which just makes us sound like a religion, which we aren&#39;t. Before you embrace leftism, see if you can tear it down from every capitalist or fascist perspective in existence, because that&#39;s the only way you can prove the worth of something. "I believe" means fuck all when your "beliefs" are a house of straw. Debate with cappies, see what they may be right about, what points you can beat them on, and combine those two ideas for your own personal political label. Don&#39;t just subscribe to an ideology and shun all those who disagree. TEST IDEAS by TEARING THEM DOWN and seeing what&#39;s left after you&#39;ve unloaded your best arsenal of opposing arguments.

[Lenin's Law]

I concur with the vast majority of responses made here.

No one can know everything when it comes to so we should not expect it. More to the point, someone working 9-5, or even longer, with a family to feed and take care of cannot possibly spend every non-working second of their lives reading books in a library. If you have the privilege of being able to spend hours reading, then recognize that it is a privilege and use it to educate others in a respectful, meaningful way; not in a patriotizing or elitist one.

While there are undoubtedly fake leftists here we must also remember that there are a lot of young people here as well; who may not be knowledgable about debating or how to debate. That doesn&#39;t mean they are not leftists, just learning, like all of us are. Perhaps they ask questions in the wrong way (ie using the whole "converting" language bit) but if so, we should patiently eduacate and tell them why they are using the wrong kind of language.

Bookworming for answers may be useful, but I don&#39;t see what&#39;s wrong with actually asking live flesh-and-blood people for advice and recommendations.

Also I think there is something progressive about [i]not relying on the intellectual author for all your answers to life&#39;s questions, and instead, asking your fellow man (or woman),

[Redmau5]

Proletarian Revolutionary 1: Let&#39;s storm the barricades and overthrow the ruling classes&#33;&#33;&#33;

Proletarian Revolutionary 2:Are you completely versed in all volumes of &#39;Das Kapital&#39; as well as all of Karl Marx&#39;s other works?

Proletarian Revolutionary 1: Eh, no.

Proletarian Revolutionary 2: Then you may not storm the barricades. Only I and the other three people in the world who have read every piece of leftist literature known to man may storm the barricades.

Proletarian Revolutionary 1: What? Fuck you.

Proletarian Revolutionary 1 then proceeds to kill Proletarian Revolutionary 2 along with his pompous, arrogant ideas.

[Rodack]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 05, 2006 06:04 pm
I have found that 90% of those I have encountered on this board are not true leftists. Let me tell you why:

People are asking questions about how to counter arguments made by their friends in debates. They ask questions such as "How do I respond to this?" or "What can I tell this person to make them a communist?" If you can&#39;t answer these key questions yourself, you obviously don&#39;t understand the theory you advocate.

If you don&#39;t understand the theory you advocate, you are doing it to stir up controversy, build up your self-image, or a combination of the two.

You should not devote yourself to any political line of thinking unless you know its ins-and-outs and can counter every point someone else brings up. When you debate, research, and listen, knowledge should shape your politics. Politics should not shape your knowlegde.

Knowledge and experience --&#62; Poltical Beliefs

For many of you, you declare yourself to be communists and anarchists without having any real experience shaping that. In that sense, you are fake. It&#39;s begun to piss me off because I gett he feeling that most of you on here really aren&#39;t dedicated to anything.
Parinoia was a contributing factor to the colapse of the Soviet Union, Comrade. Afterall, this is the learning board :)

[P.L.U.C.K.]

comrade kurtz, i am new to the whole leftist viewpoint and im also 14 years old. i do not properly understand it yet, but im a fast learner and should soon. yuo say that people how to make the right descisions by asking you what do do. no offence, but to not call them leftist is pretty damn anal.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

ye in 14 to.i joined here to expand my knowledge of the left, after a breif explination from a family member. Half the point of a database is for people to learn, so dont slag of thoes eager to learn

[Concept]

i&#39;ve been left-leaning even before i knew any of the ideology
i&#39;ve always felt that ppl should have more control of their lives

any argument spoken in the name of the left is a good one...hopefully the person ur talking to is open-minded and sees the benefits the left has to offer
maybe they will convert over to the right side....the left lol

there is so much info to take in, it can be a bit overwhelming to newbs like myself
but any knowledge is good and everybody learns at their own pace
over time u will naturally lean to a particular form and take in all u can on that particular one...but its best to take ur time and make sure of ur choice

i don&#39;t have a clue which one i truely believe in but i can say that i&#39;m a revlefter&#33; :)

[Chocobo]

Well we shouldn&#39;t call them false leftists; if one cares about the world and making a change on the leftist spectrum then well, their leftists. As for them preaching before they know a well amount, well, yah, that sucks, but people do it&#33; People love what they know&#33; What they can teach&#33; But when countered and them being immature with their actual understanding, then yes, they give the left a rather demented look, but so what&#33; We have our entire life to learn&#33; And if someone isn&#39;t too egotistical and willing to accept they made a mistake or something of the sort, then they can always go back to who they were talking with and set things right&#33; We got our entire lives to learn, let the unfermented speak&#33;

[Matty_UK]

Jesus Christ, how many people read Das Kapital and then become communists, compared to how many people decide capitalist is morally repulsive and then decide to learn about the alternatives?

People always become communists before they know everything about marxism, and this place is great to make them more well versed. We aren&#39;t fucking academic robots we&#39;re human beings and as far as I&#39;m concerned if you want to overthrow the bourgeois and create proletarian rule then you&#39;re a comrade of mine, no matter how little economic theory you know.

[Bright Banana Beard]

I also came here to learn more about Communism and Society, I agreed almost a lot of them where I learn but I still have a long way to go.

[Ligeia]

I&#39;ve got a question about left "violence"?After World War II till today since I had a discussion where someone said something like this:
"In post-war Germany more people surely died throug left violence than right one.Nevertheless, if anyone thinks that violence is right does not know how to use reason.

It doesn&#39;t matter if they are left or right since they are only following doctrines from other dumb people who made those doctrines and if they think that violence will be accepted by the people they are wrong.

capitalism is bad,the USA are bad, catholicsen are bad, etc.etc.
The world can be so easy if you have a steady enemy but the world isnt just black or white,it&#39;s grey."

Now,what would you reply to this..and left violence is carried out by right leftist,or not?Is it authorised?
My english is bad,I know.