The Political Spectrum

[AlwaysAnarchy]

I have included here a Political Spectrum chart from the left to the right. Is it accurate?

FAR RIGHT - FASCIST (Nazis)
RIGHT - CONSERVATIVE (Republicans)
CENTER - MODERATE (Democrats)
LEFT - LIBERAL (Greens/Social Democrats)
FAR LEFT - SOCIALIST (Communists/Anarchists)

[Pirate Utopian]

in it's most basic view yes, but you can get more specific with it

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 05:43 pm
I have included here a Political Spectrum chart from the left to the right. Is it accurate?

FAR RIGHT - FASCIST (Nazis)
RIGHT - CONSERVATIVE (Republicans)
CENTER - MODERATE (Democrats)
LEFT - LIBERAL (Greens/Social Democrats)
FAR LEFT - SOCIALIST (Communists/Anarchists)
No, things aren't as simple as left and right.

[Red Menace]

It's a bit more complicated then that. Like for say, correct me if im wrong, but aren't anarchists like in their own little corner, they are right if anything. They are progressive but they are right.

[Demogorgon]

I prefer a to axis sytem as used by politicalcompass.com and I have seen some suggestions for a three axis system. Of course you would need many more than that to be truly accurate. But practicality limits us.

[RedAnarchist]

How the hell are anarchists right-wing?

[The Grey Blur]

Counter-revolutionary? :P

You can simply divide groups into pro-ruling class or pro-proleteriat if you want, it speeds up the neccessarily evil process of becoming disillusioned with the beurgeois political process since you'll realise that every promise your local Democrat made is gonna go in the bin once he gets his fat salary and bungs from local businessmen.

[Clarksist]

FAR RIGHT - FASCIST (Nazis)
RIGHT - CONSERVATIVE (Republicans)
CENTER - MODERATE (Democrats)
LEFT - LIBERAL (Greens/Social Democrats)
FAR LEFT - SOCIALIST (Communists/Anarchists)

Fascist aren't completely far right. Liberals aren't left of center, they are on the right, as is the democratic party.

Left and right isn't as much about politics as it is economic indicators. Right is more laissez faire and left is more Marxist. That help?

[Aurora]

I dont think any political spectrum works.Dump it.

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 05:59 pm
How the hell are anarchists right-wing?
well, they are, and they aren't. they aren't even really in the spectrum. They are just kinda out there. But they are more right-wing if anything. Because they prefer no government at all, compared to conservatives who wish to have as little government interfearence as possible.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by PeacefulAnarchist+--> (PeacefulAnarchist) I have included here a Political Spectrum chart from the left to the right. Is it accurate?

FAR RIGHT - FASCIST (Nazis)
RIGHT - CONSERVATIVE (Republicans)
CENTER - MODERATE (Democrats)
LEFT - LIBERAL (Greens/Social Democrats)
FAR LEFT - SOCIALIST (Communists/Anarchists)
[/b]Even if such a political spectrum was actually useful (which it is not, see also FoB's answer), This is incorrect. Republicans and Democrats are not monolithic parties that all members (or even all politicians) share the same views in each party. Some are more liberal, some are more left, some are just crazy. Also, classically Liberalism is an ideology of the right. Another thing, conservatism doesn't actually mean anything, who were the conservatives in the USSR in 1990-1992? And another thing, this sort of thing is not useful, 'cause unfortunately you have to place fascists, socially restrictive and small government capitalists (classic liberals) all on the same side.


Originally posted by Defy+--> (Defy)It's a bit more complicated then that. Like for say, correct me if im wrong, but aren't anarchists like in their own little corner, they are right if anything. They are progressive but they are right.[/b]No. Anarchists are socialists, and socialists are always on the left. Yes they desire not government, but this does not make them on the right of the political spectrum.


Originally posted by Demogorgon
I prefer a to axis sytem as used by politicalcompass.com and I have seen some suggestions for a three axis system. Of course you would need many more than that to be truly accurate. But practicality limits us.A two axis system is much more useful, it shows that anarchists are not on the right, but distinguishes them from other socialists. It really depends on what you want to compare. If you want to compare attitudes to the state, then both anarchists and classical liberals are on the same side. But if you want to compare attitudes to capitalism, they are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Another axis could be on environmentalism and/or animal rights.


[email protected]
Left and right isn't as much about politics as it is economic indicators. Right is more laissez faire and left is more Marxist. That help?Unless they are the current Republican administration, who seem to want lots of deals for mates. Want to increase government to crack down on those evils abortionists and condom users. Etc.


Defy
well, they are, and they aren't. they aren't even really in the spectrum. They are just kinda out there. But they are more right-wing if anything. Because they prefer no government at all, compared to conservatives who wish to have as little government interfearence as possible.But, the current lot of conservatives in power seem to want government interference. Anarchists are not like that at all.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 05, 2006 12:36 am
Counter-revolutionary? :P

You can simply divide groups into pro-ruling class or pro-proleteriat if you want, it speeds up the neccessarily evil process of becoming disillusioned with the beurgeois political process since you'll realise that every promise your local Democrat made is gonna go in the bin once he gets his fat salary and bungs from local businessmen.
That won't work. Because ultra-reactionaries, particularly those wishing for a return to previous states of government such as feudalism, will by necessity be against the current ruling class. That isn't going to make them pro-proleteriat

[Wanted Man]

Anarion is quite right. Neither the left/right scale nor the political compass grid are of much interest. Class is what it comes down to in the end.

[Matty_UK]

Political spectrums are a load of crap, who is to say what defines left and right and is they have always had the same ideals over time?

Far more useful to marxists is a "progressive" and "reactionary" spectrum but even that would be impossible to work in any useful way.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 04:03 pm
Political spectrums are a load of crap, who is to say what defines left and right and is they have always had the same ideals over time?

Far more useful to marxists is a "progressive" and "reactionary" spectrum but even that would be impossible to work in any useful way.
Progressive and reactionary are often just pseudonisms for left and right anyway, so that would be rather pointless.

Though I do think people's views are based more on a tendency to wards progress or reaction than on individual cases.

[RedKnight]

No. Anarchists are socialists, and socialists are always on the left. Yes they desire not government, but this does not make them on the right of the political spectrum Except for "anarcho-capitalists".

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 04:36 pm

No. Anarchists are socialists, and socialists are always on the left. Yes they desire not government, but this does not make them on the right of the political spectrum Except for "anarcho-capitalists".
They aren't really anarchists though. Just loonies. :)

[Rodack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 11:47 pm
It's a bit more complicated then that. Like for say, correct me if im wrong, but aren't anarchists like in their own little corner, they are right if anything. They are progressive but they are right.
You are correct, if you have studied Anarchism, you will find that it is Right Wing. Anarchism is more self Governance and Left Wing Political Theory is about the common good

[Comrade Kurtz]

Fascists aren't "ultra-conservatives" like many make them out to be. The fascist attempts to create a society in which a new state, one that is all-powerful and god-like rules over the people. It doesn't wish to preserve the old.

Really, fascists and anarchists don't belong anywhere.

And as someone pointed out, the left-right spectrum is too over-simplified. Political Compass' spectrum is about as good as it gets.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Originally posted by Rodack+November 05, 2006 04:51 pm--> (Rodack @ November 05, 2006 04:51 pm)
[email protected] 04, 2006 11:47 pm
It's a bit more complicated then that. Like for say, correct me if im wrong, but aren't anarchists like in their own little corner, they are right if anything. They are progressive but they are right.
You are correct, if you have studied Anarchism, you will find that it is Right Wing. Anarchism is more self Governance and Left Wing Political Theory is about the common good [/b]
I strongly disagree that anarchism is right wing.. Actually I think of anarchism the same way the wobblies think about it: being the left of the left of the left! :P

[Enragé]

how can anyone claim anarchism is rightwing because it doesnt want a state when every single revolutionary leftist ideology from anarchism all the way to maoism has as its endgoal a stateless, classles society?

we just differ on the way to get there.

In fact, anarchists/libcoms are more left since they advocate the immediate turnover of power to the working class, without a state, whereas leninism etc advocates a transitional period.

[RebelDog]

I think the best way to think of a working spectrum is to think of it in terms of control. Facsism is control of the people and is on the far right and anarchism is on the far left and doesn't exercise control. Some will argue that authoritarian communism is control of the people but I would argue that 'authoritarian communism' is an oxymoron and isn't communism. I think the spectrum works when we think of control and freedom.

[Comrade Kurtz]

Nah. Authoritarian communism exists. What about Stalin?

[Enragé]

Authoritarian communism exists. What about Stalin?

"Democracy which lacks any principle of democracy exists. What about the German Democratic Republic? What about the Democratic People's Republic of Korea?"

[Comrade Kurtz]

Yeah, I agree.

[anti-authoritarian]

Stalin wasn't a communist. He was an asshole.

Sorry just had to say it. But anyway, political spectrum (spectra?) are often best done using the two axis approach. The best example is the economic indicator (left-right) and the social indicator (no state - complete state control).

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 06:31 pm
Stalin wasn't a communist. He was an asshole.


HELL YEA!!! woo hoo!! I'm sooo happy that was included in a thread of mine!

Stalin - fuck em. :D

[anti-authoritarian]

Lol! Glad I made someone happy today!

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by PeacefulAnarchist+November 05, 2006 12:01 pm--> (PeacefulAnarchist @ November 05, 2006 12:01 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 04:51 pm

[email protected] 04, 2006 11:47 pm
It's a bit more complicated then that. Like for say, correct me if im wrong, but aren't anarchists like in their own little corner, they are right if anything. They are progressive but they are right.
You are correct, if you have studied Anarchism, you will find that it is Right Wing. Anarchism is more self Governance and Left Wing Political Theory is about the common good
I strongly disagree that anarchism is right wing.. Actually I think of anarchism the same way the wobblies think about it: being the left of the left of the left! :P [/b]
I kind of agree with you. I believe that they are so far left, that they are right.

They are not like the Right that we see today. The right today, is in fact increasing the size of the government. While traditional right-wingers seek to lessen the size of government. And like Rodack pointed out, right wingers are about the individual and about self-governance, and left wingers care for the common good.

I have spoken to many anarchists on this issue, and they are often offended by my assumption that they are left-wingers.

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 05, 2006 06:20 pm
Nah. Authoritarian communism exists. What about Stalin?
But modern authoritarian regimes (like Stalin) have a state to protect and exercise that authority and control. Communism is a stateless, classless society and so I say what exists today in NK and existed under Stalin was not communism.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Woohoo, yet another thread about "the political spectrum", with all the usual clichés.

Get over it people, there's not such thing as a "political spectrum", and the closest thing to a real one you can come up with is flawed and can be considered "biased" by anyone who doesn't have the same ideas you have.

Fascism is a different phenomenon from conservatism, even if they were "related" in many historical circumstances, while for example "libertarians" (that is, what they call "libertarian" in the US) have completely different stances from fascists and even if you can find things they have in common with conservatives and what yankees call "liberals", they also disagree in others and they make any "one left-right axis" spectrum useless. Putting them in two axis would leave fascist economies as the "authoritarian" version of "libertarian" ones, which is not 100% accurate, and would make fascists "right-wing stalinists" which is very questionable.

[Guns of Brixton]

There are many things wrong with the left-right political spectrum concept.

Nobody in this thread has yet mentioned this flaw: The concept implies that it is a quantitative issue (democrats are less right than republicans or Jesse Jackson is more left than Clinton), when it is more fundamentally a class issue. Really, democrat liberalism is not more left than republican conservatism, it is just a different strategy for maintaining capitalist rule.

Mostly, though, I don't think we all mean the same thing by these terms.

"The Dissenter" said:



I think the best way to think of a working spectrum is to think of it in terms of control. Facsism is control of the people and is on the far right and anarchism is on the far left and doesn't exercise control. Some will argue that authoritarian communism is control of the people but I would argue that 'authoritarian communism' is an oxymoron and isn't communism. I think the spectrum works when we think of control and freedom.


Which pretty well, I think, represents the anarchist viewpoint.

Marxists, on the other hand, conceive of left and right in terms of class. The left is on the side of the exploited classes and the right is on the side of the exploiter classes.

The dual axis system is interesting (politicalcompass.org puts me in the extreme libertarian left corner), but it is ultimately misleading because it obscures the critical choice: when push comes to shove, which side are you on?

Marxists (especially those calling themselves Marxist-Leninists, Maoists or Trotskists), believe that the interests of the proletariat (revolutionary expropriation of the means of production) cannot be achieved without a vanguard party and a proletarian state.

So that, in the actual course of revolution, people holding non-materialists "principles" (like pacifism or anti-authoritarianism) end up on the wrong side of the revolution.

It is in this light that marxists will consider some anarchists to be on the right. They are unwilling to use key tools that are necessary to actually make a revolution and they oppose the proletarian state that is necessary to maintain it.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 05, 2006 06:20 pm
Nah. Authoritarian communism exists. What about Stalin?
stalin was a state capitalist, not a communist.

I prefer to refer to stalinism as 'post bolshevism'.

[Rodack]

Originally posted by PeacefulAnarchist+November 05, 2006 06:01 pm--> (PeacefulAnarchist @ November 05, 2006 06:01 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 04:51 pm

[email protected] 04, 2006 11:47 pm
It's a bit more complicated then that. Like for say, correct me if im wrong, but aren't anarchists like in their own little corner, they are right if anything. They are progressive but they are right.
You are correct, if you have studied Anarchism, you will find that it is Right Wing. Anarchism is more self Governance and Left Wing Political Theory is about the common good
I strongly disagree that anarchism is right wing.. Actually I think of anarchism the same way the wobblies think about it: being the left of the left of the left! :P [/b]
You are welcome to disagree but it is how I described it, Comrade

[Rodack]

Originally posted by Defy+November 05, 2006 07:04 pm--> (Defy @ November 05, 2006 07:04 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 12:01 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 04:51 pm

[email protected] 04, 2006 11:47 pm
It's a bit more complicated then that. Like for say, correct me if im wrong, but aren't anarchists like in their own little corner, they are right if anything. They are progressive but they are right.
You are correct, if you have studied Anarchism, you will find that it is Right Wing. Anarchism is more self Governance and Left Wing Political Theory is about the common good
I strongly disagree that anarchism is right wing.. Actually I think of anarchism the same way the wobblies think about it: being the left of the left of the left! :P
I kind of agree with you. I believe that they are so far left, that they are right.

They are not like the Right that we see today. The right today, is in fact increasing the size of the government. While traditional right-wingers seek to lessen the size of government. And like Rodack pointed out, right wingers are about the individual and about self-governance, and left wingers care for the common good.

I have spoken to many anarchists on this issue, and they are often offended by my assumption that they are left-wingers. [/b]
The Political spectrum does not travel in a circle, that is one of the biggest mistakes Leftists make. The political spectrum runs in a straight line, on one end you have the rock of the Capitalistic system and at the left you have the tree of Communism. I use the term Communism, 'although it has never been achieved to describe the other end of the spectrum. Liberals, for example believe that if they move more to the left, they will win support from the right but that has proven to be false by the elections in the United States over the last 12 years, now we see Liberal candidates moving to the right by embracing God, Pro-life, Anti- Gay Marriage, lower taxes, etc. in order to get elected. I believe it is to little too late for the Democrat Party come Tuesday. The American People just does not trust the Liberal Left anymore. The best we can hope for is a return to the Glory days of 1933, Comrades

[Dr Mindbender]

i agree with the 'who cares' school of thought regarding the spectrum. Its non-productive and time wasting. Besides, its almost impossible to pin down as some conservatives have anarchist opinions and some liberals have conservative opinions. All we need are the following equations:

Fascists = scum

Communist/socialist/Libertarian anarchist =revolutionary

Reformist/conservative/liberal/social democrats/state capitalists = reactionary

[Lord Testicles]

The Linear model I was taught at school goes:
<- - - - Left Right - - - - >
Anarchism - Communism - Socialism - Liberalism - Conservatism - Facism

[Red Menace]

Here are 2 political spectrums I found on wikipedia. I find them both intresting, but like my other comrades have pointed out, obsolete.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/Pournelle_chart_color.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Worlds-Smallest-Political-Quiz.PNG

[apathy maybe]

Dat first one is funny&#33; Classical anarchists "irrational", but Ayn Rand "rational"? And Max Stiner?

"State worship" communists?

Who ever did that one up is just crazy and/or doesn’t know anything about the things that they put up there.


The second one is also silly. Liberalism anywhere but in the USA, means small government and capitalist. Conservative does not mean anything anywhere (who were the conservatives in the USSR 1990-1992?).

And the creator of the thing things that being opposed to capitalism means accepting big government (anarchism is not truly represented in this "spectrum"). I actually email the creator this point, but ve hadn&#39;t got back to me.

Skinz: That is actually one of the better Left/Right ones I have seen. It doesn&#39;t actually mean anything of course, but you get that.

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2006 10:12 pm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Worlds-Smallest-Political-Quiz.PNG
Apathy_Maybe put it wisely, the Nolan chart is a horrible political spectrum. It works ok for the mainstream, United States political arena. Other than that, it&#39;s useless. Where would an anarchist fit there? Socialist/Communist?

And we also have to remember that the Nolan chart was created with an agenda. Marshal Fritz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Fritz) is a free-market libertarian and has obviously created a bias. The Libertarian Party in the United States uses the Nolan chart for its recruiting efforts.

And the first one is just silly.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

I see the interesting points being made by everyone. Here is another thread that I personally have thought up, feel free to tear it apart&#33; :)

The left wing revolutionary political chart:

EXTREME AUTHORITARIAN -------- Stalinists
AUTHORITARIAN --------- Leninists/Trotskyists
LIBERTARIAN------------ Left Communists
EXTREME LIBERTARIAN--------Anarchists

[apathy maybe]

Again, this might be fine if you only care about ideologies on the "left", but where do "anarcho"-capitalists fit in? You might claim that they are libertarian, but what is likely to happen would be a rather authoritarian system.

Actually, I would say that Stalin is not even "left". Leninists and Trotskyists are different, but both, like "Left Communists", want ultimately a communist society. I.e. another variety of anarchism.

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2006 09:07 pm
I see the interesting points being made by everyone. Here is another thread that I personally have thought up, feel free to tear it apart&#33; :)

The left wing revolutionary political chart:

EXTREME AUTHORITARIAN -------- Stalinists
AUTHORITARIAN --------- Leninists/Trotskyists
LIBERTARIAN------------ Left Communists
EXTREME LIBERTARIAN--------Anarchists
hmmmmmmmmm
I don&#39;t know about the libertarian parts but, other then that, its good I guess ;)

[anti-authoritarian]

The Nolan chart is fine until you start getting to the extremes. I got the left edge which it calls &#39;liberal&#39;.


Fascists = scum

Communist/socialist/Libertarian anarchist =revolutionary

Reformist/conservative/liberal/social democrats/state capitalists = reactionary

Love it&#33; The best one yet&#33; :P