Are we naturaly born like this? or are we made?

[R_P_A_S]

I’ve probably brought this issue up before. But this time It’s more personal. Because I find my self-encountering people with this mentality more and more as I share with them my views on the system and the exploitation caused by capitalism. I point out that all financial problems from Bills, Health Care, Rent, and exploitation has to do with the very own model of life we are taught to embrace and accept, Capitalism. I try to make my close friends and relatives look at the BIG PICTURE! Beyond there personal financial issues (that being the start) But look at the entire world picture and how we are all effected by it.

I always seem to get one of this. “I don’t care about any one else!, I’m trying to pay my bills!” or “Fuck politics and the governors I hate that shit” and a very popular one is “I got too much shit going on and problems to worry about others being exploited, I’m only ONE person I can’t change ANYTHING!!”

So I think to my self. Are we as left wingers, Marxist, anarquist, socialist, communist naturally more caring for others? Before I was introduce to marx and communism I was caring and I did care about the world problems and exploitation. Now more than ever because I see where the problem comes from.

But I find people like me who are working class feeling that they don’t need to care or that they shouldn’t lift a finger for anyone else because they are themselves struggling! So how can they help others if they are barely making ends meet?

What’s with this negative attitude? I find hard to believe that they simply “don’t care about others” It really bothers me when they say things like that.

Are we , the left wing just a more compassionate and caring bunch? That we can look outside the bubble and really want to change things for our fellow people? As opposed to just thinking you are the only person drowning in the system?

Is this a natural characteristic? Or does it come with reading and understanding marx and other left wing literature?

[Module]

I think it's something that grows. I began my intrest in revolutionary politics early year 9... when I saw somebody on a website that described themselves as 'communist'.. which I had previously heard, but didn't know what it was.. so I looked it up, and became interested in it...
However... my switch to anarchism came somewhat naturally.. when I was in the UK for christmas, visiting family.. and then we went on a sight seeing trip to stone henge.. the ropes meant we had to see it from about 10 meters away.. nobody was up there supervising, but there were about 3 people each working in the souvenier store and coffee bar. I starting getting really emotional about how this land didn't belong to anybody and I'm restricted by rules I had no part in making and no choice to abide by...etc. etc... and it was that day I turned towards anarchism. It sounds really stupid when I explain it.. but that's what did it. :ph34r:
Overall, however I think that it's just a case of discovering it. Most people who take the time to learn about the revolutionary ideologies are usually immediately converted, from what I have seen. The flaws in this society are very clear, atleast when the light is shown. I think everybody's a leftist at heart, actually hehe

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 06:21 am
I think it's something that grows. I began my intrest in revolutionary politics early year 9... when I saw somebody on a website that described themselves as 'communist'.. which I had previously heard, but didn't know what it was.. so I looked it up, and became interested in it...
However... my switch to anarchism came somewhat naturally.. when I was in the UK for christmas, visiting family.. and then we went on a sight seeing trip to stone henge.. the ropes meant we had to see it from about 10 meters away.. nobody was up there supervising, but there were about 3 people each working in the souvenier store and coffee bar. I starting getting really emotional about how this land didn't belong to anybody and I'm restricted by rules I had no part in making and no choice to abide by...etc. etc... and it was that day I turned towards anarchism. It sounds really stupid when I explain it.. but that's what did it. :ph34r:
Overall, however I think that it's just a case of discovering it. Most people who take the time to learn about the revolutionary ideologies are usually immediately converted, from what I have seen. The flaws in this society are very clear, atleast when the light is shown. I think everybody's a leftist at heart, actually hehe
it makes perfect sense bro! and I feel the same way when I went to the pyramids in Mexico and they rope on some of the grassland area. But yeah I also believe that is one thing to "feel bad" for the exploited and is an other to read about revolutionary idelogies and just be drawn into it and feel close to their struggle.

communism has taught me more than church ever did. about REAL brotherhood.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

It's predominantly nurture rather than nature in this case, I would say.
Perhaps genetics can have an influence one's combativeness, aggressiveness, or willingness to question the establishment. But even these basic traits, i think, are largely due to a person's upbringing, culture, etc.

[Angry Young Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 05:41 am
I’ve probably brought this issue up before. But this time It’s more personal. Because I find my self-encountering people with this mentality more and more as I share with them my views on the system and the exploitation caused by capitalism. I point out that all financial problems from Bills, Health Care, Rent, and exploitation has to do with the very own model of life we are taught to embrace and accept, Capitalism. I try to make my close friends and relatives look at the BIG PICTURE! Beyond there personal financial issues (that being the start) But look at the entire world picture and how we are all effected by it.

I always seem to get one of this. “I don’t care about any one else!, I’m trying to pay my bills!” or “Fuck politics and the governors I hate that shit” and a very popular one is “I got too much shit going on and problems to worry about others being exploited, I’m only ONE person I can’t change ANYTHING!!”

So I think to my self. Are we as left wingers, Marxist, anarquist, socialist, communist naturally more caring for others? Before I was introduce to marx and communism I was caring and I did care about the world problems and exploitation. Now more than ever because I see where the problem comes from.

But I find people like me who are working class feeling that they don’t need to care or that they shouldn’t lift a finger for anyone else because they are themselves struggling! So how can they help others if they are barely making ends meet?

What’s with this negative attitude? I find hard to believe that they simply “don’t care about others” It really bothers me when they say things like that.

Are we , the left wing just a more compassionate and caring bunch? That we can look outside the bubble and really want to change things for our fellow people? As opposed to just thinking you are the only person drowning in the system?

Is this a natural characteristic? Or does it come with reading and understanding marx and other left wing literature?
The idea of selfishness is a culturally conditioned thing. The education system is set up to make people selfish and impotent, as it suits the ruling class' economic circumstance.
Anyho, being compassionate doesn't make you leftist. My mum was a greatly compassionate person and (though we lived in a 2-up-2-down in East Yorks), she voted Tory.
Becoming a leftist does relate to compassion, but it is an interpretation of compassion; what with the idea being abstract and subjective (in my view, obv).
On the flipside, would you call Stalin a compassionate man?

[sav]

I don't think it's a case of leftists being naturally more caring, as we all have the capacity to care for our fellow humans. In my opinion it's just that we, unlike those deluded by capitalism, are not afraid to show and embrace comradery. When you're not too busy trying to keep up with the neighbours, you have the time to care.

You do raise a good point, some people are too busy in their lives to stop and think. If you're working your ass off with two minumum wage jobs, trying to raise a kid as a single parent, it's going to be hard to find the time to commit yourself to helping others around you. Hard, but not impossible, which is an idea we have got to spread.

[Political_Chucky]

Yea I agree with all of your theories. Basically I think it just depends on upbringing, beliefs, and whether or not you believe man is naturally good. I know plenty of capitalists and such who feel compassion and sympathy for others. Yet, I do think we leftists( The more cultivated ones who do not just believe a violent revoltuion is the only way, even though it still may be neccessary) have empathy for others because obviously we are part of those who struggle in some way or another.

I don't know, I think it has a great deal to do with upbringing and some kind of trait us humans possess. Ever since I could remember, I wasn't much for violence, or killing. I think humans for the most part have a good sense of them which is brought out when conditions are at its worst. But at the same time, if that person is not neccessarily being affected and doesn't really know about the consequences (such as how many Americans wanted to go to war with iraq, or at least it was perceived like that by the media) I think it can also bring out the worst. This is really a complicated theory. But for the most part, in my opinion, I see more good then bad in people. True Leftists I think contain the traits of sympathy much more.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

We aren't necessarily born socialist, we are born and then we look around and become socialist. I, for one, have changed by views drastically. First I was a Democratic Socialist, than I read some Marx and came here and became a trotskyist, then I became an anarchist, than I went back to a trot, and now I'm a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. But I think there was a period of time when I was younger when I thought capitalism was fine and bought into the rhetoric, so wouldn't that be impossible if I/we were born socialists?

[worldtradeisadeathmachine]

it's definately something that grows


once i moved out of my Dads house, my mother gave me a few books to read at around 8, found out who che was etc
You can't be born in any way because in my opinion the human condition at birth is so innocent and easily influenced. As the child grows, it gets affected and influenced by the beliefs of others around the child. Parents tell it stuff, the kid begins to watch television, maybe the family goes to church.
It totally depends on how you were brought up, it's the same for people who are really religious or nazi's.
Like; Were Nazi's born Nazi's?
of course not.

[Sadena Meti]

To quote Jeremy Hardy:


You can inherit male pattern baldness from your mother’s father, but not a propensity to fight in the First World War.


It’s experience, choice, environment, and chance. You could have easily ended up a coke-sniffing capitalist.

[Concept]

i myself believe in reincarnation kinda...so i think sometimes we r naturally born like this...not leftist per say but with compassion for the human race
it all depends on how much we take in this trait and define it

[RedAnarchist]

I would say that our politics are shaped by our experiences, our lessons in life and the people whom we choose to associate with. Maybe there is a natural aspect to it, but I doubt it makes too much of a difference.

Personally, I was conservative and Anglican up until a few years ago, then started progressing towards the Left. This was not a consequence of some gene waking up in my teens, but rather my own growing awareness of the world.

[Dimentio]

Most political activists are activists because they care for a part of the programme, not because they want to change the world. They want to have a better social treatise and do not exactly imagine something else. That is evolutionary sentient, since the purpose of all organisms is to reproduce themselves, and create so good opportunities at that as possible.

Then we have those who care a bit about injustices and engages in campaigns against it, even if they do not earn anything personally from an eventual change.

And then we have those like myself, who are not interested in actually having a life, eating, sleeping, or reproduce, and only care about "the issue".

[RebelDog]

Humans are born with the genetic capability to be really nasty horrible bastards and social, altruistic, caring, nice people. What will manifest itself depends on our our environment and what we need to do to survive. Capitalism is good example of humans existing in such conditions where behaviour such as selfishness sometimes and altruism on other occasions are essential to survive. Its easy to look around and see people exhibiting different behaviour depending on the situation they find themselves in. Communism is a good example of how the collective interest, co-operative thinking, solidarity and altruism are also manifests of the hard-wired human behavior. An end to scarcity and conflict will virtually negate the side of humans we regard as negative as humans would no longer need them for individual survival. In other words humans are very adaptable and a libertarian communist society is achievable. There is no biological reason not to think this. Then we can throw off the muck of ages as Marx put it.

[Red Tomato]

I think people become a certain way through experience, knowledge, etc.. for example, I have become the way I am through my knowledge and experience with different types of government. living in america my whole life has made me not want to be american. people rebel against what they don't believe in. people also become stronger when having to defend themselves against capitalists 24/7. i seem to have rejected all theories people brought me up to believe , though. most theories i believe in i read about on my own and studied and then came to believe in.

[Knight of Cydonia]

in my opinion,maybe most of us are not naturally born or made to be a communist,anarchist,maoist etc. i think we are the group of people who just sick of all the "evil government" and we want some changes.

but it's possible that some of us are born or made to be, i'e maybe our buddies that came from Russia, that he might known about communism from the day he/she was born.

[The Bitter Hippy]

i agree that people are leftist by experience, but i just wanted to raise an issue here.

Am i the only leftist motivated by selfishness?

Loads of people here have told about how they saw injustice, want to fight for others, or feel that the system is unfair to others.

I'm here because communism is in my personal interest. To be perfectly honest i don't care too much about "everyone else", except my associates and comrades. My pro-proletarian-ness only comes from knowing that what benefits my class benefits me.

This links to the first post, which references people rejecting politics and leftism out of a feeling of 'selfishness'.

These people are no more selfish than i, but i am just about as left as they come whereas they are apolitical. Can we truly say that those who are non-leftist are this way because they are selfish?

[OkaCrisis]

All I know is that I was a 'leftist' as soon as I was old enough to realize that the world is a human product- the highways we drive on, houses we live in, shows we watch on TV. I didn't know then that I was a communist anarchist; the only thing I knew was that the world that has been created thus far is an unjust and inequitable place. And I recognized that with oppression comes privelege (although I wouldn't have been able to articulate that at the time!)- that some people's lives were better or worse than others, for no good reason.

I don't think that I am 'naturally' more or less selfish/sympathetic than anyone else. Maybe it's just that I (and perhaps people who describe themselves as 'leftists') see the world for what it is: controlled by people, and because of this fact, the world can be changed. But others see the world as a place where they have no power, especially not to change it.

Anyway, my 2 cents: 'leftists' are people who believe that the world could be a better place, and they think that they have an idea about to how to achieve that.

A funny thing to consider is that even people who fully endorse capitalism and denounce communism still recognize that there is a lot wrong with the world. Some of them are willing to listen to alternatives, regardless of whether they think something like 'that' could ever happen in real life. Anyway, I find most working class 'capitalists' to be, at the very least, 'communist sympathizers'.

[More Fire for the People]

It is our social relations that determine our consciousness. Workers, because of their class position, are anti-capital.

[Everyday Anarchy]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 07, 2007 12:26 pm
It is our social relations that determine our consciousness. Workers, because of their class position, are anti-capital.
That could be true for some but it is by far not a universal truth. There are thousands of pro-capitalism workers. Being a worker does not mean anti-capital.
It's just as possible for a worker to be pro-capitalism as it is for a bourgeois man to be pro-communism.

[Rage Against Right]

I believe the human race is a product of their immediate environment, especially at an early age when the young are easily influenced, but people have there own beliefs that are born from birth and that is what makes us individual, for example you may come from a capitist family background but believe that the system isnt right, but if u are surrounded by left literature and an equal case you can make an informed decision that supports what you feel in your heart, whether it be compassion or selfishness,

I think charateristics like compassion are born from birth, but depending on the environment can be cganged or reinforced

[An archist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 05:41 am
I’m only ONE person I can’t change ANYTHING!!


Whenever you get this, tell them about the 20 anti-fa that shut down an extreme right, nationalist meeting. (without even using violence)
You can change things in very small numbers.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by Everyday Anarchy+January 07, 2007 01:00 pm--> (Everyday Anarchy @ January 07, 2007 01:00 pm)
Hopscotch [email protected] 07, 2007 12:26 pm
It is our social relations that determine our consciousness. Workers, because of their class position, are anti-capital.
That could be true for some but it is by far not a universal truth. There are thousands of pro-capitalism workers. Being a worker does not mean anti-capital.
It's just as possible for a worker to be pro-capitalism as it is for a bourgeois man to be pro-communism. [/b]
I said anti-capital not anti-capitalist.

[OkaCrisis]

Originally posted by Hopscotch Anthill+January 08, 2007 04:29 pm--> (Hopscotch Anthill @ January 08, 2007 04:29 pm)
Originally posted by Everyday [email protected] 07, 2007 01:00 pm

Hopscotch [email protected] 07, 2007 12:26 pm
It is our social relations that determine our consciousness. Workers, because of their class position, are anti-capital.
That could be true for some but it is by far not a universal truth. There are thousands of pro-capitalism workers. Being a worker does not mean anti-capital.
It's just as possible for a worker to be pro-capitalism as it is for a bourgeois man to be pro-communism.
I said anti-capital not anti-capitalist.[/b]
The problem is that for the most part, workers want to own and control capital, not overthrow it. They may be anti-capital due to their class position, but many (if not most) still believe that the way to their own emancipation is by becoming bourgeoisie. They would never consider that eliminating capital and capitalists is another option all together.

They teach you in school to become businessmen and economists, not revolutionaries. Most people can barely wrap their head around the concept of state control as it is, let alone what emancipation from the state would look like. All I'm saying is that the average worker might never be exposed anti-capital-ish ideas, so they are not pro-capital per se, but they do believe that capital is something to covet and accumulate for oneself in order to secure their own livelihoods. If it's all they've ever been taught, who can blame them, really?

All people like us can do is try to convince others to educate themselves, that way they can see beyond the MTV and CNN, and come to their own conclusions about the world. Just like we all did.

[MissLeftistRevolutionary]

Nobody is born the same. Nobody is born with the same capabilities/abilities. everyone is born different. everyone is born with different needs/wants/desires. everyone is shaped into who they are through experience, experience makes a person who they are. everyone comes to their own conclusions about the world through knowledge and experience.

[SecurityManKillJoy]

People make use of what they are aware of (whether this be physical environment, their own immediately-accessible memories and body, etc.) and of course 'use' is a general term, which can mean action-creation, moving to new environmental conditions, making new memories, etc. There is no mysterious 'in-born nature'; people simply make use of what they have, which can also mean rejecting entirely what they know and taking on something entirely different.

I only put it like that so we don't have to use some kind of free-will metaphysics, but neither do we have to use mechanical materialism, such as 'people are nothing but objectively-knowable chemicals'. I think putting it in the way previously mentioned doesn't have to make use of determinism or accidentalism at all as well or words such as 'influences' or 'nature'.