Moroccan wins Iran's Holocaust cartoon contest

[Guerrilla22]

By Parisa Hafezi
2 hours, 51 minutes ago



TEHRAN (Reuters) - A Moroccan won first prize on Wednesday in Iran's International Holocaust Cartoons Contest, which had sparked outrage in Israel, the West and among Jewish groups.

Iran's best-selling newspaper, Hamshahri, launched a competition in February to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust, in which 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis.

The contest was a retaliation for last year's publication of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad in Danish and other European newspapers that angered Muslims worldwide.

Presenting a prize to a representative of Moroccan cartoonist Abdellah Derkaoui, Culture and Islamic Guidance Minister Mohammad Hossein Saffar-Harandi praised Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who has described the Holocaust as a "myth."

"Our president was the brave and freedom-seeking person who started this debate without being concerned about its consequences," Saffar-Harandi said.

Derkaoui's cartoon shows a crane with a Star of David sign, putting up blocks making a wall separating the Muslim shrine, the Dome of the Rock, from Jerusalem. The wall has a gate, shown in the distance, that looks like one at the Auschwitz concentration camp, where Jews were incarcerated and killed.

"The taboo is broken now. People should not think that by questioning the Holocaust, they are committing a crime," the minister said. The Moroccan cartoonist won $12,000.

Masoud Shojai-Tabatabai, head of the Cartoon House which helped organize the exhibition of entries, said the government was not financing the prizes but he did not say who was.

In September, while in Tehran, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan condemned the cartoon exhibition and said the Holocaust was an undeniable historical fact.

"We should be careful not to say anything that is used as an excuse for incitement to hatred or violence," he said.

The second prize, worth $8,000, went jointly to French and Brazilian cartoonists. The third-placed competitor was an Iranian cartoonist.

Shojai-Tabatabai did not reveal the French cartoonist's name. "You can call the French cartoonist 'Mr. X'. If I reveal his name, he may face imprisonment in France."

Organizers said some 1,193 drawings had been received from 62 countries including some European states where it is a crime to deny the Holocaust. Some 204 were on display.

The messages of the cartoons displayed were not always clear although several seemed to poke fun at the United States, Iran's arch-enemy.

The competition drew condemnation from the Israeli government, Jewish groups and the mayor of Paris. The United States called the idea "outrageous."

Israeli government spokesman Gideon Meir called on the international community to express disgust for "such an anti-Semitic and inhuman event."

[Bolshevist]

I can't believe it, how incredibly idiotic :wacko:

So what did they achieve? Insult some jews who had been in concentration camps? 6 million murder victims?

Some people :rolleyes:

[dso79]

Most of the cartoonists aren’t really attacking Jews or concentration camp victims; rather, they are attacking Israel’s policies towards the Palestinians, their use of the holocaust for political purposes etc.

[Phalanx]

Depicting Mohammed in a cartoon is nothing compared to making fun of the Holocaust. Some bullshit prophet is not as important as the deaths of 11 million people.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 03, 2006 11:07 am
Depicting Mohammed in a cartoon is nothing compared to making fun of the Holocaust. Some bullshit prophet is not as important as the deaths of 11 million people.
Word. Fuck this anti-semitic bullshit and the pigs who spew it.


Most of the cartoonists aren’t really attacking Jews or concentration camp victims; rather, they are attacking Israel’s policies towards the Palestinians, their use of the holocaust for political purposes etc.

What a bunch of apologetic crap. Read the statements made surrounding this, it is pretty clear what the intent is and it is disgusting.

[LoneRed]

Instead of solely believing everything you hear, you should look into things before saying such things.

[Wanted Man]

Lonered is quite right. I wonder if blackbanner and Tatanka have even seen the cartoon in question. Luckily, the article has a description:


Derkaoui's cartoon shows a crane with a Star of David sign, putting up blocks making a wall separating the Muslim shrine, the Dome of the Rock, from Jerusalem. The wall has a gate, shown in the distance, that looks like one at the Auschwitz concentration camp, where Jews were incarcerated and killed.

So, basically, the artist is drawing a comparison between the Holocaust, and what Israel is doing now. Any objections from the angry zionists that this thread has attracted? :huh: It would seem so. "Oy vey, the Israeli Apartheid state is very kosher for us communists! Don't be such a schmuck!" :rolleyes:

[YSR]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 03:42 am
"Oy vey, the Israeli Apartheid state is very kosher for us communists! Don't be such a schmuck!" :rolleyes:
Nice to see you managed to slip in some ridiculous and anti-Semitic caricatures in your response. I'd hate for the "anti-imperialists" of the world to forget what they think about Jews.

[Wanted Man]

You've got to be shitting me. What you quoted was not even aimed at Jews, but at "communists" who seem to feel the need to attack as "anti-semitic" a cartoon that only attacks Zionist hypocrisy. You might want to sit down and think for a minute before you try to call me anti-semitic, when I consider the 1941 February Strike, which was started by the communists in response to Nazi anti-semitism, one of the most examplary achievements of the communist movement. But then again, you've probably never eve heard of that.

Indeed, in my country, as in many others, the communist(i.e. "Stalinist") resistance was among the most important. I wonder where the anarchist movement was when the Nazis started killing Jews. Then again, it probably didn't even exist at that time. I take pride in heroes like Hannie Schaft, who had no qualms mercilessly shooting the real anti-semites, even in the face of the darkest anti-semitic reaction.

[LoneRed]

I agree with Mathjis

The Zionists hypocrisy is outstanding.

little fact Zionist leadership worked with Hitler to make the state Of Israel, so Jews would get out of Germany, and The Zionists could fulfill the prophecy.
The intent of the cartoon is dead wrong, but the double standards by zionists is even worse

[bcbm]

Instead of solely believing everything you hear, you should look into things before saying such things.

"Iran's best-selling newspaper, Hamshahri, launched a competition in February to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust"

"'People should not think that by questioning the Holocaust, they are committing a crime,' the minister said."

This seems pretty fucking clear-cut to me. Why are you apologizing for a bunch of holocaust denying, anti-semitic shitbags, and trying to justify their nonsense through "anti-Zionism." And some wonder why many find the left soft on anti-semitism?


I wonder if blackbanner and Tatanka have even seen the cartoon in question.

I was commenting on the entire article, and the purpose of the competition, which seems to be to ridicule the holocaust as a hoax, judging from the comments from the Iranian state. Sorry, but this issue isn't debatable: the holocaust happened


Any objections from the angry zionists that this thread has attracted?

I sincerely hope you're not accusing me of being a zionist, because such an accusation is pretty serious and I'd hope you wouldn't throw it so lightly. I'm certainly no fucking zionist, but I am capable of criticizing Israel without diving headlong into apologism for anti-semitism and holocaust denial.


You might want to sit down and think for a minute before you try to call me anti-semitic, when I consider the 1941 February Strike, which was started by the communists in response to Nazi anti-semitism, one of the most examplary achievements of the communist movement.

Unless you were personally involved, which you weren't, then this has absolutely no fucking bearing on criticism directed against you.


I wonder where the anarchist movement was when the Nazis started killing Jews. Then again, it probably didn't even exist at that time.

What a cheap attempt to turn this into another "Communist v. Anarchist" thread; pathetic really. If you'd really like to know more, I wrote an extensive piece on historical resistance to antifascism, both from anarchists and communists. Its on the Che-Lives e-zine. In short: both anarchists and communists were on the frontlines of the resistance and your attempts to malign those involved is disgusting. Indeed, it was the anarchists who kept fighting the Nazis in the streets while the "Communists" were busy doing absolutely-fucking-nothing after Stalin signed a pact with Hitler and the Soviet-sponsored parties no longer took a hard-line against fascism. OOPS.

[LoneRed]

The Left Soft on Anti-semitism, on the contrary the left is extremely critical of anti-semitism, which is usually taken to anti-semitism=anti-zionism. Many people here equate the two as well. It is true, what they did is Bullshit, but what Israel is doing to palestinians and arabs in general is beyond disgusting.
Zionism is mystical, and by consequence is homicidal. It deserves no respect or tolerance. Yes Anti-semitism is a bad thing, But one of the most anti-semitic governments is the Israeli Government. Anti-semitism applies to arabs and Middle Eastern Jews. It isnt about religion its about ethnicity. In fact a prominant Zionist in the 20th century coined anti-semitism as we know it, to only mean discrimination against Jewish people. which is incorrect. I hate anti-semitism as much as the next person. but when Israel is put upon a pedastool which is above criticism a disservice is being done.

Yes the holocaust happened and it was terrible, but what is terrible as well is that how easily anti-semitism is thrown around. Jews werent the only people killed in Germany, In fact Hitler targeted Communists,Socialists,unionists first, later he used the countries anti-semitism to equate Jewish with communist. It was his hate of communists that turned into his hate of Jewish people. It was 6million people TOTAL that died, not 6 million Jewish people. If we are going to speak out against the holocaust, you have to speak out for ALL the people that were killed, not just jewish people

[bcbm]

The fact that an act which was clearly motivated by vulgar anti-semitism is being justified due to Zionist abuses is pretty fucking telling. There is no need to lecture me on how sickening Zionism is: I've been a committed activist in the Palestinian cause for several years, both on my own and as a member of Al-Awda. However, I can distinguish anti-semitism from anti-Zionism and this seems a pretty clear cut case of the former. I still fail to see what there is to argue about. This is a cartoon contest designed to make it ACCEPTABLE to question the holocaust. Fuck that.


I hate anti-semitism as much as the next person. but when Israel is put upon a pedastool which is above criticism a disservice is being done.

Nobody is doing that, or suggesting such a thing.


Jews werent the only people killed in Germany, In fact Hitler targeted Communists,Socialists,unionists first, later he used the countries anti-semitism to equate Jewish with communist. It was his hate of communists that turned into his hate of Jewish people.

Um, actually it was pretty much both and there certainly was an element of purely ethnic (not ideological) cleansing, as shown through the murder of Roma, Slavs and others who had nothing to do with "communists."


It was 6million people TOTAL that died, not 6 million Jewish people.

Um, no, it was about 12 million TOTAL that died, not 6 million. The 6 million Jews figure is correct.


If we are going to speak out against the holocaust, you have to speak out for ALL the people that were killed, not just jewish people

I agree, but it is pretty clear that this action is motivated by anti-semitism and attempting to deny the suffering of the Jewish people in particular.

[YSR]

Originally posted by LoneRed+--> (LoneRed)Yes the holocaust happened and it was terrible[/b]

That's a big fuckin' understatement, pal. Something which the people you are supporting here don't even acknowledge existing.


BBBG
This is a cartoon contest designed to make it ACCEPTABLE to question the holocaust.

Damn straight.

What, do you guys think that everything that comes out of a Muslim country is holy? Just because they're the "anti-imperialist" poster child of the day doesn't mean they are somehow above criticism.

Need I remind anyone that this contest was sponsored by a bourgeois newspaper? These cats are the bad guys, remember? All of them. Isreali, Arab, whatever.

[Red October]

exactly. why does everyone love arabs these days just because they stand up to the US. ahmedinijd is terrible too. iran is a bourgeois theocracy run by anti-semites and fascists.

[LSD]

The Left Soft on Anti-semitism, on the contrary the left is extremely critical of anti-semitism

If only that were true. Unfortunately the reality is that antisemitism is far more tolerated on the left than virtually any other form of racism or discrimination. Largely because of Israel, but also because of a subconscious association of Judaism with capitalism, subtle antisemitism is often accepted.

Obviously no one save the outright racist will support someone advocating genocide or condeming Jews as "the devil"; but less overt antisemitic assertions, including far-rightest stand-by's like the "Jews control the media" or "Israel controls US foreign policy" are all too often repeated among leftist circles.

Even on this board, we've had to restrict otherwise leftist members for espousing antisemitic nonsense. People like Free Palestine and workers unity, who never would have made the kind of comments they did about any other race, but when it came to Jews somehow saw it as acceptable.

Antisemitism has a long and tragic history in the left. Bakunin was an antisemite, so was Stalin. In the words of SPD founder August Bebel, for much of the left, antisemitism became the "socialism of fools". A tragic attempt to attack bourgeois society by attacking its percieved "orchestator", the Jew.


Anti-semitism applies to arabs and Middle Eastern Jews. It isnt about religion its about ethnicity.

Actually it's about race and, no, it does refer solely to Jews.

The word "semitic" does indeed not refer solely to jews, but the the word "antisemitic" means hatred of jews. It seems counterintuitive, but that's how language is sometimes.

"Antisemitism", as invented by Willhelm Marr (although I suppose you could trace it back to von Treitschke), explicitly means "jew-hatred". It was coined with that specific meaning and it has carried that meaning for over a century and a half.

The fact is that antisemtism is a specific kind of hatred, very much tied in with 19th century "scientific" racism and liberal protestantism. Diluting the word to mean hatred of all "semitic" peoples, a relatively rarer phenonemenon and of much less historical importance, only serves to dilute the concept and minimize the cultural and historic role of European antisemitism.

Insofar as the word itself, the simple truth is that sometimes historical etymology just does not correlate with dissective lexigraphy; just look at "homophobia".


In fact a prominant Zionist in the 20th century coined anti-semitism as we know it, to only mean discrimination against Jewish people. which is incorrect.


And which "prominant Zionist" would that be? Antisemitism was coined in the 19th century by German antisemites who used the term exclusively to mean Judenhass or "Jew hatred".


Yes the holocaust happened and it was terrible, but what is terrible as well is that how easily anti-semitism is thrown around.

Are you seriously equating the Holocause with slander? The murder of 11 million people was "terrible", but so's calling people names???


It was 6million people TOTAL that died, not 6 million Jewish people.

um...you really don't know anything about this subject do you?


What, do you guys think that everything that comes out of a Muslim country is holy?

Typical postcolonial white guilt nonsense.

[Wanted Man]

I agree with most of LSD's last post. And yet, he "had to" warn me for "anti-semitism". Go figure.

[LSD]

That was for the comment "Oy vey, the Israeli Apartheid state is very kosher for us communists! Don't be such a schmuck!" A rather telling example of just the kind of acceptable antisemitism I'm talking about.

You wouldn't have mocked AAVE or otherwise made fun of black culture, but when it comes to Jews, somehow its acceptable.

Again, it's a prejudice that's all too comon on the left.

[The Author]

Originally posted by [email protected] November 4, 2006, 11:44 pm
so was Stalin

He most certainly was not. I suggest doing more serious reading before throwing out baseless comments such as that one.


We have some manifestations of anti-Semitism, not only among certain circles of the middle strata of the population, but also among a certain section of the workers, and even in some quarters in our Party. This evil must be combated, comrades, with all ruthlessness.

J.V. Stalin, "Fifteenth Congress of the C.P.S.U. (B)" Works, Volume 10 (http://www.marx2mao.com/PDFs/StWorks10.pdf)


ANTI-SEMITISM
Reply to an Inquiry
of the Jewish News Agency in the United States

In answer to your inquiry:

National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism.

Anti-semitism is of advantage to the exploiters as a lightning conductor that deflects the blows aimed by the working people at capitalism. Anti-semitism is dangerous for the working people as being a false path that leads them off the right road and lands them in the jungle. Hence Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot but be irreconcilable, sworn enemies of anti-semitism.

In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty.

J.V. Stalin, Works, Volume 13 (http://www.marx2mao.com/PDFs/StWorks13.pdf)

[LoneRed]

"Actually it's about race and, no, it does refer solely to Jews."

Actually that is wrong, It Does NOT refer to only jews, you contradict yourself on the two statements following that.

i am in no way supporting the holocaust of what it did, it was horrible yes, but a problem with things like this, is that it is continually used to give people guilt trips about the situation which helps out the justification of the state of Israel out of other people, people that had NOTHING to do with it. What about the 100+million native americans that were slaughtered by the American Govt, and before that.

I have no doubt that it was a lot of people, but until i see with my own two eyes, sources that are unbiased i will not believe the accepted totals.

Anti-Semitic In REALITY means hatred of both arab and jew. But it was turned into Only hatred of jews by a prominent Zionist, to make it possible that to call anti-semitic anyone that criticizes what the Israeli government does.

This is turn comes with setting up of Israel a state of modern day oppression that has NO right to existance, check the latest news, civilians, children being killed. I see no difference in policy. amount so far, yes, policy no.
The state of Israel is extremely racist against Arabs, something most people forget to add or mention.

[LoneRed]

Wiki says this, which is getting at the point

While the term's semantics may imply that antisemitism is directed against all people of a Semite descent, it is in fact used exclusively to refer to hostility towards Jews.

That is what im talking about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semite

[LSD]

[Stalin] most certainly was not [antisemitic].

Right, he just hated "rootless cosmopolitan zionists" and all those Jewish doctors really did try and kill him...:rolleyes:


While the term's semantics may imply that antisemitism is directed against all people of a Semite descent, it is in fact used exclusively to refer to hostility towards Jews.

That is what im talking about

What are you talking about? The fact that the word "antisemite" doesn't semantically dissect to its meaning?

So what? The same's true for lots of words, including, againg homophobia. That doesn't mean that the word homophobia is a part of some pro-homosexual conspiracy, however.

Besides, what does any of this have to do with the issue at hand? How does it back your assertion that the left is "soft" on homophobia or your patently bizarre attempt to link Israel itself with antisemitism?


Actually that is wrong, It Does NOT refer to only jews

Anti-Semitic In REALITY means hatred of both arab and jew

Please provide a source for this claim because the dictionary definition of the world antisemitic, ever since its invention 150 years ago is the hatred of Jews.

If you have some evidence otherwise, please present it, otherwise stop this nonsensical denial of reality.


But it was turned into Only hatred of jews by a prominent Zionist, to make it possible that to call anti-semitic anyone that criticizes what the Israeli government does.

And this prominent Zionist would be...?

And, again, how do expalin the prominent antisemites who actually invented the word using it exclusively to mean Judenhasse? If this was a pro-Israeli conspiracy, how do you explain the fact that the current definition of antisemitism predates the state of Israel by about 75 years?

This kind of conspiratorial thinking only plays into the antisemites' hands. The Jews are "changing our language", they're "making up words", maybe they're "controling our government".

I suppose its beyond your imagining that the word may just mean what it means???


I have no doubt that it was a lot of people, but until i see with my own two eyes, sources that are unbiased i will not believe the accepted totals.

Wait a minute ...what?!

So now you've moved from merely hinting at antisemitic conspiracy theories to actually denying the holocaust? :blink:

If you don't "believe accepted totals", what figures do you find convincing? Five million? Four million? Half-a-million?

You're getting dangerously close to neo-nazi territory here, Lonered. They also insist on "unbiased sources", by which, of course, they mean sources that agree with their racist conspiratorial bullshit.

There are a lot of historical questions that are unclear, but the approximate death toll of the holocaust is not one of them. Around 6 million Jews were killed; around another 5 million non-Jews were as well.

And unfortunately there's only one reason I can think of for why you would refuse to "believe" that. :(

What proof exists that the Nazis practiced genocide or deliberately killed six million Jews? (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html)

[The Author]

Originally posted by [email protected] November 5, 2006, 12:52 am
Right, he just hated "rootless cosmopolitan zionists" and all those Jewish doctors really did try and kill him... :rolleyes:

This link says otherwise:

http://harikumar.brinkster.net/AllianceIssues/All30v.htm

Once again, your accusation of Stalin being an anti-Semite is not grounded in fact- it is pure libel.

[Wanted Man]

Well, the Wikipedia entry on "rootless cosmopolitan" says it, so it must be true! Get with the system, or you are an anti-semite and a Holocaust denier!

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by LoneRed
I have no doubt that it was a lot of people, but until i see with my own two eyes, sources that are unbiased i will not believe the accepted totals.

What do you mean by 'sources that are unbiased'? In what way are the 'sources' biased at the moment?

[Enragé]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+November 05, 2006 05:22 pm--> (Black Dagger @ November 05, 2006 05:22 pm)
LoneRed
I have no doubt that it was a lot of people, but until i see with my own two eyes, sources that are unbiased i will not believe the accepted totals.

What do you mean by 'sources that are unbiased'? In what way are the 'sources' biased at the moment? [/b]
maybe because they were written/supplied by the victor? :rolleyes:

you know, those bourgeois governments, and a stalinist state which we all hate (or should hate)
which also had an interest (at least the US etc did) in having a shocking enough reason to make a new state out of nothing?

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by NewKindOfSoldier+November 06, 2006 03:35 am--> (NewKindOfSoldier @ November 06, 2006 03:35 am)
Originally posted by Black [email protected] 05, 2006 05:22 pm

LoneRed
I have no doubt that it was a lot of people, but until i see with my own two eyes, sources that are unbiased i will not believe the accepted totals.

What do you mean by 'sources that are unbiased'? In what way are the 'sources' biased at the moment?
maybe because they were written/supplied by the victor? :rolleyes:

you know, those bourgeois governments, and a stalinist state which we all hate (or should hate)
which also had an interest (at least the US etc did) in having a shocking enough reason to make a new state out of nothing? [/b]
So what are you saying? The six million is an exaggerated number provided by the allies to make the nazis' look bad (as if that was even necessary)?

What is the 'real' figure? Hmm?

[Enragé]

So what are you saying? The six million is an exaggerated number provided by the allies to make the nazis' look bad (as if that was even necessary)?

What is the 'real' figure? Hmm?


Dude, relax

I dont care if its 1 or 4583594 billion
I dont think it matters

lets look at this rationally ok

1. the sources are biased
2. anti-semitism and nazism suck regardless, should be fought, destroyed, utterly wiped out
3. the holocaust doesnt justify the creation of the Israeli state (whether the numbers are correct or not)

[LoneRed]

I agree with NKOS

[LoneRed]

IT seems that what im saying can be taken completely wrong by some people here. Listen and Listen good damn it, Im not an anti-semite. I was merely pointing out that as communists, we MUST analyse every situation and not accept the official story. This includes such things as 9/11 as well. To not do this, is to be no better than reactionary.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Red October [email protected] 05, 2006 03:19 am
exactly. why does everyone love arabs these days just because they stand up to the US. ahmedinijd is terrible too. iran is a bourgeois theocracy run by anti-semites and fascists.
I'm surprised(well, not really) that the people who denounce "anti-semitism" are not saying anything about the above post, which basically states the "loving Arabs" is wrong. You, sir, are a racist donkey raper.

[bcbm]

I'm surprised(well, not really) that the people who denounce "anti-semitism" are not saying anything about the above post, which basically states the "loving Arabs" is wrong. You, sir, are a racist donkey raper.

Uh, no, that post is clearly stating that everyone tripping over themselves to felate a bunch of theocratic bigots for being "anti-imperialist" is wrong. I'm surprised (well, not really) that something so clearly anti-semitic in intention is even being fucking discussed otherwise.


I was merely pointing out that as communists, we MUST analyse every situation and not accept the official story.

"Analyzing every situation" (although I've found the jury very much done deliberating on this issue) is something entirely different from supporting a bunch of fuckheads in sponsoring a contest designed to trivialize and deny the murder of millions of people.

[ReD_ReBeL]

I dont mean to come off here racist, not in the slightest! but what is wrong with arab nations? everything seems to be to do with revenge or wanting the blood of someone. They majority seems so conservative it is beyond a joke.
If they rn't shouting 'God is great' it's burning some countries flag or chanting for the head of their victim.
This is no way is meant to be racist as i have friends of all nationalities .

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2006 01:38 am
I dont mean to come off here racist, not in the slightest! but what is wrong with arab nations? everything seems to be to do with revenge or wanting the blood of someone. They majority seems so conservative it is beyond a joke.
If they rn't shouting 'God is great' it's burning some countries flag or chanting for the head of their victim.
This is no way is meant to be racist as i have friends of all nationalities .
look at the US

bunch of fucking idiots?
yes

why?
indoctrination

soo...

Iran;
bunch of fucking idiots?
yes

why?
indoctrination

Saudi Arabia;
bunch of fucking idiots?
yes

why?
indoctrination

etc etc

what you're saying is not racist, as long as you realise it applies to the majority of all "races" right now

because the ruling ideas in societies are always those of the ruling class.

makes sense.

By the way;
not all people in the middle east are like that
thats just the image that has been painted by western media

[Lenin's Law]

Good point, NKOS, the image we have of Arabs comes from the bourgeois media, which has an active interest in putting up nationalities against each other. Especially ones with "funny" names and are of a different skin color. A good person to read here is Tariq Ali, one of my favorite authors, who makes the point that those that have actually travelled to Arab countries know that the people themselves (and not their theocratic governments) are not has reactionary/religious as the media makes them out to be.

The repressive governments in the Middle East also do a lot actively suppress any and all revolutioanry/atheist organizations and movements. This particular aspect has been supported by the Western governments, which we must be extremely critical of.

As for the topic, these cartoons are heinous and again represent the attempt by all states to put nationalities against each other, religious against one another, to divide the international working class from their true, material objectives.

The Holocaust figures are not really controversial and the motivation for questioning their accepted totals I would find very dubious and strange for left-wing revolutionaries.

[Guerrilla22]

I can't believe how worked up people got over this. I guess I'll weigh in. Making fun of or denying the holocaust outright is terrible as is the policies of the Israeli state, however it doesn't sound like the cartoon that won the contest was making fun of the holocaust, it was simply drawing comparisons to what the nazis did and to what the Israelis are doing now, which is fine by me.

[Dr Mindbender]

It would have been less pathetic of the competition organisers if the rules were to make a cartoon about the danish instead of the jews. :( :huh:

[bcbm]

Making fun of or denying the holocaust outright is terrible as is the policies of the Israeli state

Why is it neccessary to tie the two together at all in this manner?

[Dr Mindbender]

considering the timing (late 1940's), it could be argued that the holocaust was the major trigger for the establishment of Israel in the first place.

[YSR]

But as foul and despicable as the Isreali state is, have they yet killed 6 million Palestinians? Do they have gas chambers and an ideology dedicated to the extermination of the Palestinian people?

Freeing the Palestinian people can't happen if people keep making these ridiculous comparisons. It just makes you look like a fool.

[MolotovLuv]

Originally posted by Young Stupid [email protected] 06, 2006 08:29 pm
But as foul and despicable as the Isreali state is, have they yet killed 6 million Palestinians? Do they have gas chambers and an ideology dedicated to the extermination of the Palestinian people?

Freeing the Palestinian people can't happen if people keep making these ridiculous comparisons. It just makes you look like a fool.
So Israel is better because it's killed less people and doesn't have gas chambers? :huh: I guess we'll care more when the Palestinian death toll reaches 6 million :rolleyes: Just because they don't come out and say "we're exterminating the Palestinians", doesn't mean they aren't gearing their policy's towards just that.

[Phalanx]

The Israeli state is very repressive towards Palestinians.

But when someone compares Israel to Nazi Germany, I immediately think they're quite stupid.

Israel's goal is not to exterminate the Palestinians. They obviously needed a home since noone else would take them. The Germans had a modern, industrialized piece of earth they could call home. But when the going got tough, they blamed it on the Jews and thus was the Holocaust.

The Jewish people were almost completely annihilated and they realized they couldn't trust Western governments. No matter how much a nation might smile and say they're welcome, they know eventually they will be driven from that nation.

The treatment of the Palestinians is atrocious, but what choice did Jews have? (I'm not saying the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza are out of desperation, I'm talking about the creation of Israel).

Some leftists are so ignorant of the situation and so knee-jerk against the Israelis, its foolish.

[Enragé]

The treatment of the Palestinians is atrocious, but what choice did Jews have? (I'm not saying the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza are out of desperation, I'm talking about the creation of Israel).

just LIVE there instead of beating the shit out of the people around them

[Phalanx]

How could they live just live there when six Arab states attacked them the day they declared independence? If they just lived there they'd lose any hope of a homeland.

The West Bank and Gaza are a different story, which the occupation is unjustified.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 06, 2006 07:23 pm

Making fun of or denying the holocaust outright is terrible as is the policies of the Israeli state

Why is it neccessary to tie the two together at all in this manner?
Because Iran is a backwards, theocratic state.

[bcbm]

Because Iran is a backwards, theocratic state.

What does that have to do with the holocaust, or the policies of the Israeli state? :unsure:

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 07, 2006 08:59 pm

Because Iran is a backwards, theocratic state.

What does that have to do with the holocaust, or the policies of the Israeli state? :unsure:
Only a backwards theocratic state would make fun of the holocaust, or have a cartoon contest to make fun of the holocaust instead of legitimate cartoons pointing out the horrors committed by the state of Israel.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

But as foul and despicable as the Isreali state is, have they yet killed 6 million Palestinians? Do they have gas chambers and an ideology dedicated to the extermination of the Palestinian people?

Freeing the Palestinian people can't happen if people keep making these ridiculous comparisons. It just makes you look like a fool.


Excuse me?

So you're waiting till the Israelis actually kill 6 million Palestinians before you support the Palestinian cause? :o


And by the way, the ideology of the Israeli state is to create JEWISH state.

A Jewish state in the middle of a Palestinian-majority can only come about through either apartheid policies or through ethnic cleansing.

Israel has used both.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Only a backwards theocratic state would make fun of the holocaust, or have a cartoon contest to make fun of the holocaust instead of legitimate cartoons pointing out the horrors committed by the state of Israel.


Metaphysical nonsense.

Firstly, let's get the Holocaust straight.

The Nazis murdered more Communists than Jews. They targeted homsexuals, gypsies and Slavs in addition to Jews.

So when the Zionists take advantage of the Holocaust to form an Apartheid State in the middle of a Palesitnian majority area, its clear that they're taking advantage of a horrible tragedy to further their political cause.

And this cartoon contest was targeted at that particular USE of the Holocaust, i.e., a means of justifying the actions of the Israeli terrorist state.


In any case, you refer to Iran as a "backward theocratic state". Have you ever been to Iran, and do you know what the conditions there are like?

Please get out of the Western bourgeois media sources and make the effort to find out for yourself.

Iran is on the frontline of the fight against US imperialism.

Israel, as a lackey of US imperialism, has been threatening Israel for a long time.

This cartoon contest in Iran was a method of attacking the Israeli Zionist ideology.

You can either choose anti-imperialism, or you can choose Israel, which is the epitome of a pro-imperialist mercenary state.


Please, we can expect better from Radical Leftists. Prove it.

[Conghaileach]

First place in the contest:
http://yafh.com/image/4da89b3a-001derkaoui-abdellah-Morroc.jpg

Joint second place:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/jj71/002carlos-Latuff-12.jpg

Joint second place:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/jj71/003A-chardFrance-3.gif

Third place:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/jj71/004shahram-rezaei--sevom.jpg

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 08, 2006 08:06 pm


Only a backwards theocratic state would make fun of the holocaust, or have a cartoon contest to make fun of the holocaust instead of legitimate cartoons pointing out the horrors committed by the state of Israel.


Metaphysical nonsense.

Firstly, let's get the Holocaust straight.

The Nazis murdered more Communists than Jews. They targeted homsexuals, gypsies and Slavs in addition to Jews.

So when the Zionists take advantage of the Holocaust to form an Apartheid State in the middle of a Palesitnian majority area, its clear that they're taking advantage of a horrible tragedy to further their political cause.

And this cartoon contest was targeted at that particular USE of the Holocaust, i.e., a means of justifying the actions of the Israeli terrorist state.


In any case, you refer to Iran as a "backward theocratic state". Have you ever been to Iran, and do you know what the conditions there are like?

Please get out of the Western bourgeois media sources and make the effort to find out for yourself.

Iran is on the frontline of the fight against US imperialism.

Israel, as a lackey of US imperialism, has been threatening Israel for a long time.

This cartoon contest in Iran was a method of attacking the Israeli Zionist ideology.

You can either choose anti-imperialism, or you can choose Israel, which is the epitome of a pro-imperialist mercenary state.


Please, we can expect better from Radical Leftists. Prove it.
Ever heard of how the Ayatollah exterminated the Communists in Iran?

Ever heard of the anti-Imperialist or Socialist movements within Israel?

Ever heard of supporting no nations but instead the workers & poor?

You probably have but just ignored it all, you're no Communist, you're nothing.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 06, 2006 10:18 pm
How could they live just live there when six Arab states attacked them the day they declared independence? If they just lived there they'd lose any hope of a homeland.

The West Bank and Gaza are a different story, which the occupation is unjustified.
DONT DECLARE INDEPENDENCE

;)

[Severian]

Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 06, 2006 04:07 pm
The Jewish people were almost completely annihilated and they realized they couldn't trust Western governments.
So set up a "Jewish state" that's totally dependent on those same Western governments' aid! Brilliant!

No, sorry, you can't justify Israel based on protecting Jews from persecution. If fascist Jew-baiting regimes don't take power in the West, especially the U.S, it's unnecessary. If they do - it's useless.

[bcbm]

The Nazis murdered more Communists than Jews. They targeted homsexuals, gypsies and Slavs in addition to Jews.

Which means...?

Also, I'd like to see your source on that.



And this cartoon contest was targeted at that particular USE of the Holocaust, i.e., a means of justifying the actions of the Israeli terrorist state.

Uh, maybe you should read what the Iranian state was saying about its intent. The contest was clearly centered around making it okay to question or deny the holocaust; I quoted all of that earlier in the thread.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 08, 2006 08:06 pm


Only a backwards theocratic state would make fun of the holocaust, or have a cartoon contest to make fun of the holocaust instead of legitimate cartoons pointing out the horrors committed by the state of Israel.


Metaphysical nonsense.

Firstly, let's get the Holocaust straight.

The Nazis murdered more Communists than Jews. They targeted homsexuals, gypsies and Slavs in addition to Jews.

So when the Zionists take advantage of the Holocaust to form an Apartheid State in the middle of a Palesitnian majority area, its clear that they're taking advantage of a horrible tragedy to further their political cause.

And this cartoon contest was targeted at that particular USE of the Holocaust, i.e., a means of justifying the actions of the Israeli terrorist state.


In any case, you refer to Iran as a "backward theocratic state". Have you ever been to Iran, and do you know what the conditions there are like?

Please get out of the Western bourgeois media sources and make the effort to find out for yourself.

Iran is on the frontline of the fight against US imperialism.

Israel, as a lackey of US imperialism, has been threatening Israel for a long time.

This cartoon contest in Iran was a method of attacking the Israeli Zionist ideology.

You can either choose anti-imperialism, or you can choose Israel, which is the epitome of a pro-imperialist mercenary state.


Please, we can expect better from Radical Leftists. Prove it.
:rolleyes: You're hilarious. Iran is a backwards theocracy, that denies women rights,who's leadership is largely anti-semitic ,although they are right to defend Palestine, however the fact that their leadership is so blatantly anti-semitic delegtimizes their calls for a Palestinian state. They also imprison homosexuals. How exactly is Iran fighting US imperialism? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Iran would have no problem with uS imperialism, if the US was an Islamic state.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Guerrilla22
They also imprison homosexuals.

They also hang them.

[SPK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 04:00 pm
Joint second place:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/jj71/003A-chardFrance-3.gif
I don't read French, and Babelfish returned a bunch of gibberish. What are the two figures saying to one another?

[Janus]

Guy on the left is asking who put it on the ground and the guy on the right responds by stating that it was Faurisson, a French holocaust denier who denied the existence of the gas chambers.

[Severian]

And on the bottom of the facade is written "Myth of the Gas Chambers". Yup, this is a Holocaust - denying contest.

Now, why is Ahmadinejad promoting Holocaust denial and other ideas taken from Western fascists and ultrarightists? It sure ain't cause it damages Israel or the U.S. - it doesn't.

Lemme suggest: he was elected on populist campaign promises, claiming he'd try to improve the conditions for working people in Iran. But there's little a capitalist regime in Iran can do about that, because of its nature. And nothing I've seen indicates he's even trying very hard.

But rhetoric and demagogy can be a good way of distracting attention from that.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Ever heard of how the Ayatollah exterminated the Communists in Iran?

Yeah, I've heard of it.

The communists made huge errors of judgement, allowing the Islamists to take over after the overthrow of the Shah.

That's the past, its happened.

Currently, the Iranian "theocratic" regime is resisting US imperialism and in doing so, safeguarding the interests of the Iranian proleteriat.

I don't support the ideology of the Iranian regime, but if we fail to support them in their anti-imperialist struggle, then Iran will become another Iraq.

And trust me, the Iranians are far better off under a theocratic regime than a foreign imperialist one.

I've been there. Things are not always what the media describes them as.



Ever heard of the anti-Imperialist or Socialist movements within Israel?


How is that even remotely relevant here? :huh:



Ever heard of supporting no nations but instead the workers & poor?

Yeah, I've heard of it.

You need to look out for the objective interests of the Iranian workers. Their objective interests are to defend themselves against US imperialism at the moment.

If the theocratic pseudo-democracy provides for this, then we should be prepared to work with them.

It doesn't amount to an endorsement of the Islamist ideology. It's merely called the United Front.



You probably have but just ignored it all, you're no Communist, you're nothing.


You have too much confidence in your metaphysical and un-realistic assessment of the situation in Iran.

Communists need to be flexible, they need to understand the situation on the ground before choosing their stance.

A temporary policy of support for Islamists who resist US imperialism is not the same as an endorsement of their ideology.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

You're hilarious. Iran is a backwards theocracy, that denies women rights,who's leadership is largely anti-semitic ,although they are right to defend Palestine, however the fact that their leadership is so blatantly anti-semitic delegtimizes their calls for a Palestinian state. They also imprison homosexuals.


For one, you insist on categorizing Iran as a "backward theocracy". While I admit that the religious influence in Iran is too strong, and that the domination of the State by the Ayatollahs hampers democracy, they do have some democratic institutions in place.

Women are mis-treated in some cases, but in many ways, the Iranian women are getting more opportunities than men.

In many universities in Tehran, there are more female students than male ones. Women are getting an opportunity to gain employment, to get a good education, to contribute to the society.

You should visit and see for yourself.

The point is that while they are mis-treated, there are growing calls for reform from within Iran. There is a growing communist movement, which aims at ending this sorry state of affairs.

As communists, we should keep the interests of the Iranian working-class in mind. And I'm sure you realize that the last thing we want is that the Iranian working-class be forced to suffer the same way as the Iraqis.



How exactly is Iran fighting US imperialism? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Iran would have no problem with uS imperialism, if the US was an Islamic state.


You're more hilarious than I could ever dream of being, comrade.

I suggest that you keep in touch with the news.

By the way, why do you assume that an anti-imperialist state has to completely fit our own requirements before we support it?

Sure, the Iranian government has a reactionary and backward policy on many social issues, but how does that affect its resistance to US imperialism (or lack thereof)? :mellow:

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 10:10 pm
If fascist Jew-baiting regimes don't take power in the West, especially the U.S, it's unnecessary. If they do - it's useless.
What's useless? The creation of a homeland for the Jewish people?

It's great to say if fascist regimes don't take hold in the West, but when they do, at least Jews have somewhere to go.

2,000 years living under (oppressive) Gentile governments, there's no surprise that the Jewish homeland came to be. Many Jews realized that conditions under Gentiles switched between bad to worse. A pogrom or massacre would occur, governments would temporarily be sympathetic, and it'd be back to the same old problems.

How can you trust anyone when you've been treated like shit for 2,000 years?

[metalero]

Originally posted by Tatanka Iyotank+November 09, 2006 08:28 pm--> (Tatanka Iyotank @ November 09, 2006 08:28 pm)
[email protected] 08, 2006 10:10 pm
If fascist Jew-baiting regimes don't take power in the West, especially the U.S, it's unnecessary. If they do - it's useless.
What's useless? The creation of a homeland for the Jewish people?

It's great to say if fascist regimes don't take hold in the West, but when they do, at least Jews have somewhere to go.

2,000 years living under (oppressive) Gentile governments, there's no surprise that the Jewish homeland came to be. Many Jews realized that conditions under Gentiles switched between bad to worse. A pogrom or massacre would occur, governments would temporarily be sympathetic, and it'd be back to the same old problems.

How can you trust anyone when you've been treated like shit for 2,000 years? [/b]
Israel is an illegitimate regime, and the suffering of the jewish people never justifies imposing the same suffering onto others. Solidarity with palestinians is not enough to understand the situation, and the nature of the apartheid-like Israel. That clear, this stupid contest is just a demagogical move in the game of populism, and only serves to distract the irani working class as severian pointed out.

[Phalanx]

Israel is an illegitimate regime, and the suffering of the jewish people never justifies imposing the same suffering onto others. Solidarity with palestinians is not enough to understand the situation, and the nature of the apartheid-like Israel.

I realize that the Palestinians have suffered greatly at the hands of the Israelis, and by all means they have the right to self-determination, but I'm talking about the actual creation of Israel, not the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

[Enragé]

It's great to say if fascist regimes don't take hold in the West, but when they do, at least Jews have somewhere to go.


hey i wouldnt like living in a fascist state either!

come on, kill me an a-rab and give me his land!

[metalero]

Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 09, 2006 10:54 pm

Israel is an illegitimate regime, and the suffering of the jewish people never justifies imposing the same suffering onto others. Solidarity with palestinians is not enough to understand the situation, and the nature of the apartheid-like Israel.

I realize that the Palestinians have suffered greatly at the hands of the Israelis, and by all means they have the right to self-determination, but I'm talking about the actual creation of Israel, not the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
yes, but sionism and the quest for the "promised land" where the principles behind the creation of the Israeli state, and its foundation were the sistematic expulsion and discrimination of the native population. This has been a policy since the begining, not just 30 years ago. We can't fix the past, but having that clear we can foresee an objective solution, one secular state with equal rigths for everyone as idealistic as it sounds, or the recognition of self-determination for a palestinian state with access to its own resources (land, water, etc), the lift of all kind of embargos and inhuman restrictions as well as reparation for the victims of apartheid policies.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 10, 2006 11:16 am

You're hilarious. Iran is a backwards theocracy, that denies women rights,who's leadership is largely anti-semitic ,although they are right to defend Palestine, however the fact that their leadership is so blatantly anti-semitic delegtimizes their calls for a Palestinian state. They also imprison homosexuals.


For one, you insist on categorizing Iran as a "backward theocracy". While I admit that the religious influence in Iran is too strong, and that the domination of the State by the Ayatollahs hampers democracy, they do have some democratic institutions in place.

Women are mis-treated in some cases, but in many ways, the Iranian women are getting more opportunities than men.

In many universities in Tehran, there are more female students than male ones. Women are getting an opportunity to gain employment, to get a good education, to contribute to the society.

You should visit and see for yourself.

The point is that while they are mis-treated, there are growing calls for reform from within Iran. There is a growing communist movement, which aims at ending this sorry state of affairs.

As communists, we should keep the interests of the Iranian working-class in mind. And I'm sure you realize that the last thing we want is that the Iranian working-class be forced to suffer the same way as the Iraqis.


I love how you ignored the issue of anti-semitism, and the imprisonment and murder of queers in Iran :rolleyes:




By the way, why do you assume that an anti-imperialist state has to completely fit our own requirements before we support it?

So you'll support any 'anti-imperialist' no matter how matter reactionary? You really think the queers, and other people oppressed in Iran appreciate you supporting their oppressors? The state which imprisons and hangs them? I would 'assume' that you wouldnt support 'anti-imperialist' sexist racist homophobic fundamentalist nationalists, but i guess not.


Please, explain how Iran is fighting imperialism.




Sure, the Iranian government has a reactionary and backward policy on many social issues, but how does that affect its resistance to US imperialism (or lack thereof)?

What non-sense politics, you'll support any backwards regime that burns a USA flag,

How on earth is Iran 'resisting' US imperialism? Merely existing as a reactionary state which spouts heterosexism, anti-semitism and anti-USA rhetoric does not constitute 'resistance'. Iran comes from an anti-materialist, anti-communist outlook, its worldview is driven by religious fundamentalism, anti-semitism and anti-USAism, not anti-imperialism, anti-capitalism, or a desire for national liberation for the oppressed.

That's what REAL anti-imperialism is about, kicking out the colonisers, the imperialists, and letting people govern in their own interests, govern themselves, and not be ruled by an outside force or oppressed, you're deluded if you think Iran shares these goals.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 10, 2006 01:16 am

You're hilarious. Iran is a backwards theocracy, that denies women rights,who's leadership is largely anti-semitic ,although they are right to defend Palestine, however the fact that their leadership is so blatantly anti-semitic delegtimizes their calls for a Palestinian state. They also imprison homosexuals.


For one, you insist on categorizing Iran as a "backward theocracy". While I admit that the religious influence in Iran is too strong, and that the domination of the State by the Ayatollahs hampers democracy, they do have some democratic institutions in place.

Women are mis-treated in some cases, but in many ways, the Iranian women are getting more opportunities than men.

In many universities in Tehran, there are more female students than male ones. Women are getting an opportunity to gain employment, to get a good education, to contribute to the society.

You should visit and see for yourself.

The point is that while they are mis-treated, there are growing calls for reform from within Iran. There is a growing communist movement, which aims at ending this sorry state of affairs.

As communists, we should keep the interests of the Iranian working-class in mind. And I'm sure you realize that the last thing we want is that the Iranian working-class be forced to suffer the same way as the Iraqis.



How exactly is Iran fighting US imperialism? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Iran would have no problem with uS imperialism, if the US was an Islamic state.


You're more hilarious than I could ever dream of being, comrade.

I suggest that you keep in touch with the news.

By the way, why do you assume that an anti-imperialist state has to completely fit our own requirements before we support it?

Sure, the Iranian government has a reactionary and backward policy on many social issues, but how does that affect its resistance to US imperialism (or lack thereof)? :mellow:
Iran is a theocracy and is therefore reactionary. Why would anyone support a government that executes homosexuals? Also how exactly is Iran fighting uS imperialism? The Iranian leadership views its conflict with the US as a religious struggle, not a struggle against imperialism.

[Emperor Ronald Reagan]

Originally posted by black banner black gun
The contest was clearly centered around making it okay to question or deny the holocaust

You're the one acting like a Nazi, by using the taboo of the holocaust as a wedge to crush any act of revising WWII history in accordance with the actual facts. Could it be you think it's not okay to question history when it may very well be significant exaggerations? No. You and everyone here commits this on a daily basis on this forum. It's only when it's about Jews that we're not allowed, and that's rubbish. I'm not a holocaust denier, and I think there's a lot of crap in that camp, but saying it's not okay to question history is fucking rubbish and I'll have no part of it.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Emperor Ronald [email protected] 13, 2006 01:52 pm
You're the one acting like a Nazi, by using the taboo of the holocaust as a wedge to crush any act of revising WWII history in accordance with the actual facts.
Oh. And what are those "actual facts" in your view?

No. The facts are clear and well-documented. The Nazi regime killed millions, had a deliberate policy of trying to wipe out Jews and Gypsies, and used gas chambers among other means of mass murder. This is one of the most documented and certain things about world history.

When Ahmadinejad or anybody else sets out to deny this, they are promoting a reactionary political agenda; there's no two ways about it.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

I love how you ignored the issue of anti-semitism, and the imprisonment and murder of queers in Iran


Excuse me, I didn't "ignore" that issue. I recognized the ultra-conservative stance of the Iranian government on this issue.




So you'll support any 'anti-imperialist' no matter how matter reactionary?


My dear friend, perhaps you do not understand the meaning of "anti-imperialism". Anti-imperialism is in of itself a highly progressive stance.

What is anti-imperialism?

Anti-imperialism means resistance to First-world neo-colonialism, whether they try it through direct occupation (as in Iraq) or through finance capital (as in most of the third world).




You really think the queers, and other people oppressed in Iran appreciate you supporting their oppressors? The state which imprisons and hangs them?


No no no NO! But the alternative facing these queers is foreign occupation. An Israeli or American invasion will NOT be the best thing that could happen to these queers, trust me. :)

The people of Iran are "oppressed", but less oppressed than those suffering from First-world imperialism.


I would 'assume' that you wouldnt support 'anti-imperialist' sexist racist homophobic fundamentalist nationalists, but i guess not.


Please, explain how Iran is fighting imperialism.



Sure. Love to.

You need to understand that Iran is an oil-rich country, and that the Imperialists have much to gain by capturing them directly or by installing a friendly regime there.

The government of the Shah of Iran, which was overthrown in the revolution of 1979, was such a government. It was pro-American in leanings, and it literally sold off Iranian oil-fields to foreign multi-nationals, and didn't allow his secular and progressive Prime Minister Mossadegh to implement progressive reforms.

The US and its imperialist allies seek to impose a government similar to that of the Shah on the Iranian people.

The Shah was no better than the Islamic regime, in fact he was far worse. He was a mass murderer of students, a misognyist and a backward aristocratic playboy.

You should have read HIS views on women, and then compared that to the amount of progress working-class Iranian women have achieved now.

I'm no supporter of the Islamic regime in itself.

But in the current situation, when the only choice we have is a "theocratic" but anti-imperialist regime and a total imperialist take-over...

I leave the choice to you.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Emperor Ronald [email protected] 13, 2006 01:52 pm
You're the one acting like a Nazi, by using the taboo of the holocaust as a wedge to crush any act of revising WWII history in accordance with the actual facts.
Last I checked Nazis were all about "revising" WWII, though not based on any "actual facts," so I'm pretty sure I'm not "acting like a Nazi," though I'm pretty sure you're acting like an idiot by using such a tired and cliche comparison designed to crush discussion. I have no problem with people examining the facts or discussing different versions of them, but I have no tolerance for those who would entirely deny one of the most horrific and well-documented events in recent history. There is no discussion here: the holocaust happened, period.


Could it be you think it's not okay to question history when it may very well be significant exaggerations? No. You and everyone here commits this on a daily basis on this forum.

Really? Where have I, specifically, ever denied the mass murder of millions of people? And you consider the holocaust to be a significant exaggeration, do you?


It's only when it's about Jews that we're not allowed, and that's rubbish.

Yeah, nobody can talk shit on the Jews and I am here to enforce it, which is why I have consistenly spoken out against the state of Israel and advocated the beating of Jewish fundamentalists in another thread not two days ago. Oops, maybe you should actually get a clue before you open your asshole to speak. And tell me, do you whine about "The Jews" often? <_<


I&#39;m not a holocaust denier, and I think there&#39;s a lot of crap in that camp, but saying it&#39;s not okay to question history is fucking rubbish and I&#39;ll have no part of it.

I think saying that there is "a lot of crap in that camp" is perhaps the understatement of the century. In any case, nobody is saying it isn&#39;t okay to question history, but acknowledging that the outright denial of the holocaust is complete bullshit, not to mention that there is a difference between looking at the facts and comparing them to the established story in order to form a more complete picture of the truth, and lying and making up shit so that your pet regime looks a bit better historically and so that you can try and smear an entire race of people (as if killing them wasn&#39;t enough).

[Emperor Ronald Reagan]

Originally posted by black banner black gun
I have no tolerance for those who would entirely deny one of the most horrific and well-documented events in recent history.

You act like it was unique or the central historical event of our fucking epoch. No. Was it one of the worst crimes of the 20th century? Yes, but not the only one. The Belgian massacres in the Congo led to 10-12 million deaths before the 1st World War. The Jewish holocaust is merely one of them, and not even one of the more vicious ones. Hollywood, notwithstanding.

I have never spoken with any revisionists who ever "denied" the Jewish Holocaust as you claim. What an absurd posture. They are questioners about what they believe are significant exaggerations in the Holocaust tale. Their critics, such as yourself with a hysterical paranoia of anti-Semitism, like to suggest the view that this is somehow beyond discussion on pain of being placed in the category of child-molester, shunned, by society, even imprisoned by some so-called "free" countries in the western world. Sorry, I happen to believe in freedom of thought.

[bcbm]

You act like it was unique or the central historical event of our fucking epoch.

No, it is just the one that is pertinent to the discussion we&#39;re having right now about a Holocaust Denial cartoon contest. I didn&#39;t think I was being too specific by focusing on the holocaust, specifically, in that context, but I guess by not incorporating ALL mass murders and genocides in to the discussion, I am giving it too much weight, hmm? And it certainly like Holocaust Denial is a more notable and threatening movement than, say...


The Belgian massacres in the Congo led to 10-12 million deaths before the 1st World War.

... Belgan Massacres in the Congo denial. But, of course, if some group of uneducated assholes wanted to try and skew the facts about that one, I&#39;d be happy to give them just as much shit. Unfortunately, that is irrellevant to this discussion.


The Jewish holocaust is merely one of them, and not even one of the more vicious ones. Hollywood, notwithstanding.

Gee, I wonder what that last remark about Hollywood is implying. Does the media focus too much on the holocaust, too?


I have never spoken with any revisionists who ever "denied" the Jewish Holocaust as you claim.

Oh no, they just "debate" the numbers: it wasn&#39;t 6 million Jews (and they only ever focus on the Jewish deaths for some reason), it was only 1 million, and they all died from disease and malnutrition in the camps, certainly not from gas chambers&#33; Those were for delousing clothes&#33; Nothing in this reeks at all of denial of mass murder.


They are questioners about what they believe are significant exaggerations in the Holocaust tale.

The Holocaust tale? Do you (I&#39;ll ask again) find their to be significant exaggerations in this "tale?" And, if so, what might those exaggerations be? That the Nazis weren&#39;t intent on killing or otherwise removing all the Jews? That they killed at least 12 million people?


Their critics, such as yourself with a hysterical paranoia of anti-Semitism, like to suggest the view that this is somehow beyond discussion on pain of being placed in the category of child-molester, shunned, by society, even imprisoned by some so-called "free" countries in the western world.

I don&#39;t have a hysterical paranoia of anti-Semitism, but I&#39;ll call a spade a spade. It isn&#39;t being hysterical to note that most holocaust deniers (or whatever an apologist such as yourself would like to call them) come out of White Power, Neo-Nazi circles and are almost exclusively devoted to debunking the holocaust as it relates to Jews, in order to make the Jews look bad (for propogating the lie) and the Nazis look good (for no longer being responsible for all those murders, nevermind the war :rolleyes: ). I don&#39;t think they should be jailed, though I do think they should regularly have the shit beaten out of them by antifa.


Sorry, I happen to believe in freedom of thought.

So, should we allow all racist bigots to spout their bullshit without interference? And all other forces of reaction, too? I mean, we wouldn&#39;t want class warfare and the violent restructuring of society in order to form egalitarian societies to get in the way of their freedom, would we?

[YSR]

Originally posted by Emporer Anti&#045;Semite
The Jewish holocaust is merely one of them, and not even one of the more vicious ones. Hollywood, notwithstanding.

Righto. I forgot, the Jews control the media, don&#39;t they?

This is why I don&#39;t associate with you Hezbollah supporters. I don&#39;t want your backwards ideologies to wash off on me.

[Emperor Ronald Reagan]

There is a difference between the acceptance (or rejection) of historical facts (in this case, the Jewish holocaust) and the attitude towards certain people (hatred of the Jews). I see no hint of anti-Semitic implications in the diminishing of the commonly held 6 million figure, the denial of the existence of gas chambers or even denial of the Jewish holocaust entirely. Nor are there be anti-Semitic implications in the claim that the Jewish holocaust is being viciously exploited by apologists for Israeli repression and violence. If an individual unaware of modern history were told about the Jewish holocaust and refused to believe that humans were capable of such hideous acts, we would not think he was an anti-Semite. That suffices to establish my point.

Note I have said absolutely nothing about the veracity, character, quality or validity of revisionist research. I restricted myself quite explicity to a defense of their elementary rights that are taken for granted in democratic societies. And yet, I still was subject (and expected to be) to my own little campaign of harassment, intimidation, and slander ("Emperor anti-Semite") in your crude attempts to silence me.

I read something as absurd a posture as "..the contest was clearly centered around making it okay to question or deny the [Jewish] holocaust" and furrow my brow and shake my head. What rubbish. It&#39;s beyond the scope of discussion? That is pure unadulterated fascism. You openly affirm the Stalinist-Nazi doctrine that the state will determine historical truth and punish deviation from it (you follow the same model, advocating the near-death beating of anyone who dares question the historical accuracy of the event).

So yes Mr. Black Banner, evidently you do "have a problem with people examining the facts or discussing different versions of them," as you just criticized the cartoon contest for "making it okay to question the [Jewish] holocaust." It is clear as day that in your opinion it is not okay to dare question the Jewish holocaust. "There is no discussion here." Those are your words. You desperately seek to keep substantive discussion of the Jewish holocaust story taboo. One of the ways to do this is to flail your arms wildly while screeching "anti-Semitism," which constitutes the entirety of your &#39;argument" thus far. Another way to do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionists as "deniers."

Of course it is understandable why you do this; if in a debate about the shape of the earth, I could successfully pin on you the label "flat-earther," I&#39;ve scored big points even if what you&#39;re saying is very far from the absurdity of such a posture.

Let the issue be settled as all great historical controversies are resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers and classrooms.

[YSR]

Here&#39;s what I don&#39;t get with you apologist/revisionist/"questioning" cats: it&#39;s been proven. Time and time again. Personal testimony, statistics (the Nazis did this reasonably well), etc.

Why do you need to "question" something that has been empirically illustrated far too many times to count?

If you can muster the imagination to even consider that the Holocaust didn&#39;t happen, you&#39;re pretty fucking crazy&#33; "You desperately seek to keep substantive discussion of the Jewish holocaust story taboo," you say? Well, okay, sure. But why not? It&#39;s the truth&#33;

I feel like an idiot, but I&#39;m gonna write it clearly for you, so you don&#39;t forget:

THE HOLOCAUST HAPPENED. 6 MILLION JEWS WERE KILLED BY THE NAZIS. 6 MILLION OTHERS, INCLUDING ROMA, COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, QUEERS, AND THE DISABLED WERE ALSO KILLED. FIND ME A SHRED OF EVIDENCE OTHERWISE THAT CAN BE VERIFIED BY A NON-WN/NAZI GROUP AND I&#39;LL EAT MY HAT.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Emperor Ronald [email protected] 14, 2006 03:02 pm
I see no hint of anti-Semitic implications in the diminishing of the commonly held 6 million figure, the denial of the existence of gas chambers or even denial of the Jewish holocaust entirely.
Nor are there be anti-Semitic implications in the claim that the Jewish holocaust is being viciously exploited by apologists for Israeli repression and violence.
.....
I restricted myself quite explicity to a defense of their elementary rights that are taken for granted in democratic societies.
You didn&#39;t restrict yourself to any such thing. Right there, in the paragraph quoted, you defend their claims as supposedly having no anti-Semitic implication.

That&#39;s not necessary to a defense of their "elementary rights". I don&#39;t think they should be thrown in jail by the capitalist state for being neo-Nazis - because if that&#39;s possible, communists may well be next.

But the reality is that they are closet neo-Nazis, and everyone knows it. Including you, I&#39;m sure. Their claims do have anti-Semitic implications - or they wouldn&#39;t bother to make &#39;em.

If some time-traveler who didn&#39;t know the facts doubted the Holocaust, that would be something else. Here in the real world, everyone can. Some people choose to ignore those facts, and whitewash the Nazi regime. They choose to spin conspiracy theories about "the Jews" supposedly having a nearly supernatural power to suppress the truth. And pretend that being called on their bullshit constitutes persecution.


Note I have said absolutely nothing about the veracity, character, quality or validity of revisionist research.

Yeah, that&#39;s what I asked you, and you evaded it. Where do you stand on these historical questions?

I&#39;m guessing you&#39;re a Holocaust "revisionist" yourself - you just don&#39;t want to come out and say it &#39;cause you know you&#39;ll be banned. You have the "elementary right" to spout that kind of bullshit of course - somewhere else.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 09, 2006 07:28 pm
It&#39;s great to say if fascist regimes don&#39;t take hold in the West, but when they do, at least Jews have somewhere to go.
You dodged my point. Israel is dependent on Western aid, so if Jew-baiting regimes "take hold in the West," Jews in Israel are screwed too.

[Emperor Ronald Reagan]

Remember the truism comrades: History is written by the victor; and the real truth is hard to find.


Originally posted by Severian
..the reality is that they are closet neo-Nazis, and everyone knows it.Including you, I&#39;m sure.


From what I have read -- largely as a result of the nature of these attacks -- I find no evidence to support that conclusion. As far as I can determine, many are relatively apolitical liberals of some sort. David Cole for example is a Jewish revisionist and, to my knowledge, the only Jewish revisionist. He made an excellent movie about Auschwitz, which immediately attracted the attention of the JDL and he was harassed and even punched for his video. He had to recant his video in order to save him and his family&#39;s life.

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.html

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Emperor Ronald [email protected] 14, 2006 03:02 pm
There is a difference between the acceptance (or rejection) of historical facts (in this case, the Jewish holocaust) and the attitude towards certain people (hatred of the Jews). I see no hint of anti-Semitic implications in the diminishing of the commonly held 6 million figure, the denial of the existence of gas chambers or even denial of the Jewish holocaust entirely.
It is only a mere coincidence that the vast majority of people pushing holocaust denial happen to be neo-nazis, right? There may be no explicit anti-semitism in questioning the official story, but there is almost always implicit anti-semitism in the claims pushed by various deniers. Look a little deeper at what is motivating them to "question:" it isn&#39;t mere search for historical truth.


If an individual unaware of modern history were told about the Jewish holocaust and refused to believe that humans were capable of such hideous acts, we would not think he was an anti-Semite. That suffices to establish my point.

Except that the people denying it are not denying it from that angle and are well aware of modern history. That pretty much negates your point.


Note I have said absolutely nothing about the veracity, character, quality or validity of revisionist research. I restricted myself quite explicity to a defense of their elementary rights that are taken for granted in democratic societies. And yet, I still was subject (and expected to be) to my own little campaign of harassment, intimidation, and slander ("Emperor anti-Semite") in your crude attempts to silence me.

I didn&#39;t call you anything. I&#39;ve merely asked questions to ferret out your position, although you seem to be content to avoid any number of relevant questions in favor of vague statements about support for "rights." I&#39;m curious as to why a "revolutionary leftist" would be so insistent on upholding bourgeois society&#39;s standards, especially in the case of those pushing a reactionary and bigoted agenda (as I asked before, and was not answered), but I suppose that is another thread.


I read something as absurd a posture as "..the contest was clearly centered around making it okay to question or deny the [Jewish] holocaust" and furrow my brow and shake my head. What rubbish. It&#39;s beyond the scope of discussion?

Plucked a bit out of context, I see. Some were defending the contest as being against Zionism, and I pointed out its true intent and its roots in anti-semitism. You&#39;re more than welcome to "discuss," but I&#39;ll be pretty skeptical of your motives for doing so and, in the case of outright denial, brand a spade a spade.


That is pure unadulterated fascism.

Please learn what the word fascism means. It is also curious that you accuse me of fascism while continually supporting actual fascists in their attempts to make actual fascist regimes that murdered millions of people look good. Curiouser and curiouser...


You openly affirm the Stalinist-Nazi doctrine that the state will determine historical truth and punish deviation from it (you follow the same model, advocating the near-death beating of anyone who dares question the historical accuracy of the event).

The state is responsible for all of the figures around the Holocaust? My own research in the subject suggests plenty of independent research that back up more or less the same numbers and series of events. I&#39;ve also looked in to it myself and read a large number of source materials that make it pretty clear the Nazis were running death camps and had every intent to kill all the Jews they could. Look at the actions of the SS on the front and who they machine-gunned; it is pretty clear what happened and why. So, yes, I think anybody who tries to pretend all of these horrors never happened in order to push forward their own neo-nazi agenda should be beaten until they cannot move. I take actual fascists seriously as a threat to myself and my comrades, as they have proven time and time again their intent to murder us en masse when given the oppurtunity. Why any leftist equally faced with such a thing would defend them is beyond me, unless...


So yes Mr. Black Banner, evidently you do "have a problem with people examining the facts or discussing different versions of them," as you just criticized the cartoon contest for "making it okay to question the [Jewish] holocaust." It is clear as day that in your opinion it is not okay to dare question the Jewish holocaust. "There is no discussion here." Those are your words. You desperately seek to keep substantive discussion of the Jewish holocaust story taboo. One of the ways to do this is to flail your arms wildly while screeching "anti-Semitism," which constitutes the entirety of your &#39;argument" thus far. Another way to do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionists as "deniers."

I&#39;ve been perfectly clear in who and what it is that I am attacking, and what sort of discussion I find to be acceptable. Your continued attempts to make it appear I lump in actual historians (and there are some, I have read their work and found it interesting) with neo-nazi scumbags pushing a neo-nazi agenda under the guise of "revisionism" makes me curious of your position on the matter, and why you are so intent on making people who call anti-semites on their anti-semitism the enemy, instead of bigoted fascists.


Of course it is understandable why you do this; if in a debate about the shape of the earth, I could successfully pin on you the label "flat-earther," I&#39;ve scored big points even if what you&#39;re saying is very far from the absurdity of such a posture.

Except that the evidence is clearly on my side in this debate. Unless you find the evidence of the holocaust to be comparable to evidence of a flat-earth?


Let the issue be settled as all great historical controversies are resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers and classrooms.

By all means, but let&#39;s keep the neo-nazi scumbags and their anti-semitic agenda out of it, yes?

[Severian]

Originally posted by Emperor Ronald [email protected] 14, 2006 08:58 pm
From what I have read -- largely as a result of the nature of these attacks -- I find no evidence to support that conclusion.
Bullshit&#33; To take the main "Holocaust revisionists" : Zundel is a well-known neo-Nazi. And the "Institute for Historical Review" publishes all kinds of anti-Jewish and otherwise racist literature, not just Holocaust "revisionism."

Right on their fucking front page: (http://www.ihr.org/)

The Challenge of Jewish-Zionist Power
Mark Weber

During World War II, Henry Luce, the publisher of Time and Life magazines, coined the term “The American Century” to refer to the twentieth century... In the decades since the end of World War II, the United States has indeed been the world’s foremost military, economic and financial power, and the most important cultural factor... But that was then, and this is now. There are good reasons to believe that both American power and Jewish power have crested. The twentieth century – what has been called “the American Century” and “the Jewish century” – is passing, both literally and figuratively, into history.
....
Low Intelligence Level is Africa&#39;s Curse, Says Lecturer
......
official reasons given for the war were untrue, why did the United States attack? Whatever the secondary reasons for the Iraq war, the crucial factor in President Bush’s decision to attack was to help Israel. With support from Israel and America’s Jewish-Zionist lobby, and prodded by Jewish "neo-conservatives" holding high-level positions in his administration, President Bush — who was already fervently committed to Israel — resolved to invade and subdue one of Israel’s chief regional enemies.
.....
Dispute Over Orthodox Jews&#39; &#39;Eruv&#39; in Southern California
.....
Europe is turning Muslim... The number of Muslims in contemporary Europe is estimated to be 50 million. It is expected to double in twenty years.

Etc. None of that is about "Historical Review" of the Holocaust; all of it is about promoting racism and fascist politics. But I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll come up with some bullshit excuse to pretend that isn&#39;t so.

And Cole is an exceptional individual in no way typical of Holocaust deniers. He&#39;s the real-world equivalent of an internet troll, basically. He plays with different beliefs and ideologies, switching between them to amuse himself. Said so himself in an interview with Michael Shermer of the Skeptics Society.

BTW, Shermer&#39;s book "Why People Believe Weird Things" has an excellent chapter on Holocaust denial. And why it&#39;s parallel to alien abduction beliefs, creationism, and other irrational beliefs. He points out, correctly, that it&#39;s actually more anti-evidence than belief in alien abductions, which can&#39;t actually be totally disproved. It&#39;s more similar to creationism in that both have to totally ignore and discount a massive amount of evidence.

People believe all these things because they want to. And they want to believe in Holocaust denial - usually because they&#39;re Nazi sympathizers.

People who adamantly deny all evidence of atrocities - are often the same people who will turn around and say those atrocities would have been justified&#33; That&#39;s not rational, but it&#39;s a reality of their psychology. You see it with some supporters of U.S. wars too - they&#39;ll deny that the U.S. military coulda killed some group of civilians, and if that becomes untenable, they&#39;ll switch seamlessly to saying the U.S. was right to kill those civilians.

And you&#39;re still dodging: what do you think is the truth about the Holocaust? If you weren&#39;t a Holocaust "revisionist" yourself, I gotta conclude you woulda come out and said so by now.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by Severian+November 15, 2006 01:09 am--> (Severian &#064; November 15, 2006 01:09 am)
Tatanka [email protected] 09, 2006 07:28 pm
It&#39;s great to say if fascist regimes don&#39;t take hold in the West, but when they do, at least Jews have somewhere to go.
You dodged my point. Israel is dependent on Western aid, so if Jew-baiting regimes "take hold in the West," Jews in Israel are screwed too. [/b]
Jews have a better chance of defending themselves if they&#39;re together instead of isolated ghettos.

Israel should cut its ties with the West, end the occupation, and reconcile with it&#39;s neighbors, but none of those things will happen soon.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 15, 2006 11:15 am
Jews have a better chance of defending themselves if they&#39;re together instead of isolated ghettos.

Israel should cut its ties with the West, end the occupation, and reconcile with it&#39;s neighbors, but none of those things will happen soon.
None of those things will happen ever - as long as Israel remains Israel. If it remains a Jewish state, with Arabs and others second-class citizens. Or, like people in the occupied territories, non-citizens with no rights at all. And with those it has ethnically cleansed - denied the right of return. It&#39;s not just a matter of withdrawing to &#39;67 borders - the problem goes back to Israel&#39;s founding.

As long as it remains a Jewish-supremacist state, Israel remains a deathtrap for Jews, hated by its neighbors, dependent on the main imperialist powers. It is an isolated ghetto.

No, "Jews have a better chance of defending themselves" along with other opponents of fascism. Best of all, by joining the revolutionary working class opposition to capitalism, which breeds fascism.

Zionism, even left-Zionism, points in the other direction - not fighting the anti-Semites, but allying with the ruling classes responsible for it. It fatalistically accepts that anti-Semitism is inevitable. Herzl even blamed Jews for anti-Semitism, saying their very presence produces it.

You said earlier of fascist regimes taking over, "when they do". Emphasis added.
But that&#39;s not inevitable, it can be resisted.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2006 02:26 am
None of those things will happen ever - as long as Israel remains Israel. If it remains a Jewish state, with Arabs and others second-class citizens. Or, like people in the occupied territories, non-citizens with no rights at all. And with those it has ethnically cleansed - denied the right of return. It&#39;s not just a matter of withdrawing to &#39;67 borders - the problem goes back to Israel&#39;s founding.

I support a socialist, two state solution, but personally I believe the only solution for now is the two state proposal.

Getting that out of the way, do you at least realize why the Jewish people felt like they needed a home? A third of us were killed during the Holocaust, a climax to 2,000 years of anti-semitism. Anti-semitism is inevitable in the current world situation. When a revolution finally does take place, there of course will be no need for any soverign state, if education is held at a premium post-revolution.

The treatment of Palestinians is atrocious and Israel should own up to that. But under the current situations Israel should exist, not as an occupying power, but a country based on the post 1948 borders and equal rights for its Arab citizens. This is a much more feasible goal given the current situation.

Israel should own up to its treatment of the Palestinians just as the Americans, Australians, Canadians, Mexicans, South Africans, etc. should own up to their current treatment of their minorities (or in SA&#39;s case, majorities).


As long as it remains a Jewish-supremacist state, Israel remains a deathtrap for Jews, hated by its neighbors, dependent on the main imperialist powers. It is an isolated ghetto.

Yes, I realize that Israel should definately give equal rights to Arabs and other minorities. They are denied human rights and they are more than entitled to them. Israel is a deathtrap for Jews, but no more so than future fascist pogroms against Jews. In Israel, at least, Jews have a standing chance against anyone who wishes to slaughter them. In isolated inner city ghettos, there is little chance.


No, "Jews have a better chance of defending themselves" along with other opponents of fascism. Best of all, by joining the revolutionary working class opposition to capitalism, which breeds fascism.

In reality? No, they don&#39;t. Jews have been shown time and time again that they&#39;re disproportionately the ones rage is focused on. Many Jews joined in the fight against fascism in Germany, but the fight was futile.


Zionism, even left-Zionism, points in the other direction - not fighting the anti-Semites, but allying with the ruling classes responsible for it. It fatalistically accepts that anti-Semitism is inevitable. Herzl even blamed Jews for anti-Semitism, saying their very presence produces it.

You&#39;re completely correct. A few Zionist leaders had worked with Nazis to get Jews out of Germany. This is one of the many dark chapters in the history of Zionism.

However, I&#39;ll use Malcolm X as an example.

He believed it was the collective 22 million (at the time) African-Americans fighting off the rule of the collective 150 million whites of America. In his mind, the majority of whites fought against the progress of African Americans, whether they knew it or not.

My point is, many people in the &#39;First World&#39; are quite reactionary when it comes to the progress of their minorities. Working with anti-semites was shameful work, but many Zionists believed that these anti-semites were more open to their dispicable ideas than most in the first world. Therefore, working with anti-semites, in their mind, was little different than working with any random person of the First World.

I&#39;m not agreeing with this idea, I&#39;m just trying to explain.


You said earlier of fascist regimes taking over, "when they do". Emphasis added.
But that&#39;s not inevitable, it can be resisted.

Fascism is inevitable, until a world revolution finally takes place.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Tatanka Iyotank+November 15, 2006 08:56 pm--> (Tatanka Iyotank @ November 15, 2006 08:56 pm)
[email protected] 16, 2006 02:26 am
None of those things will happen ever - as long as Israel remains Israel. If it remains a Jewish state, with Arabs and others second-class citizens. Or, like people in the occupied territories, non-citizens with no rights at all. And with those it has ethnically cleansed - denied the right of return. It&#39;s not just a matter of withdrawing to &#39;67 borders - the problem goes back to Israel&#39;s founding.

I support a socialist, two state solution, but personally I believe the only solution for now is the two state proposal. [/b]
Fine, as a step forward - as long as you don&#39;t pretend it&#39;s a solution. Again there&#39;s no way Israel, as a Jewish-supremacist state, can "reconcile" with its neighbors. No more than aparheid South Africa could get along with its Black neighbors. Just withdrawing to the &#39;48 borders is like just getting out of Namibia, but keeping apartheid.

You later say "But under the current situations Israel should exist, not as an occupying power, but a country based on the post 1948 borders and equal rights for its Arab citizens." That&#39;s a contradiction in terms.

And only "its Arab citizens"? That&#39;s like saying the apartheid regime should grant equal rights to Indians and Coloureds, but leaving out the Africans. What about all the Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from Israel? Do they have the right to breathe air in the land of their birth?


Getting that out of the way, do you at least realize why the Jewish people felt like they needed a home? A third of us were killed during the Holocaust, a climax to 2,000 years of anti-semitism.

Oh, I understand why sentiment for a Jewish state was strengthened by the Holocaust. The fact that support for Israel is strengthened by the defeats of the working class, and by the victories of anti-Semitism, is convincing evidence it points in the opposite direction from fighting against anti-Semitism. But:

"The Jewish people" as if there&#39;s one opinion? Was there unity between Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust and the bourgeois Jewish organizations which didn&#39;t want them admitted to the USA and UK?

And "2,000 years of anti-Semitism" is totally ahistorical. If that&#39;s true, why was Zionism only invented in the late 19th century? Heck, if that&#39;s true, why were there any Jews left in Europe to found it?

In reality, anti-Semitism is not some constant property of Gentiles, as Zionism claims. Persecution of Jews depends on the political and economic situation at the time, like any kind of racism. I recommend "The Jewish Question: A Marxist Interpretation" by Abram Leon as a rebuttal of the Zionist view of Jewish history, including the fallacy of eternal anti-Semitism.


Anti-semitism is inevitable in the current world situation.

Yes, and Israel is no refuge from it. So it&#39;s necessary to fight to change the "current world situation" - Israel does the opposite, it&#39;s part of the world status quo.


No, "Jews have a better chance of defending themselves" along with other opponents of fascism. Best of all, by joining the revolutionary working class opposition to capitalism, which breeds fascism.

In reality? No, they don&#39;t. Jews have been shown time and time again that they&#39;re disproportionately the ones rage is focused on. Many Jews joined in the fight against fascism in Germany, but the fight was futile.

God, that&#39;s vile. Surrender to fascism, then hold up Israel as an (illusory) refuge against it. As for your distrust for non-Jewish anti-fascist fighters, more later.


In Israel, at least, Jews have a standing chance against anyone who wishes to slaughter them.

Again, not against a fascist USA. Not when all the neighbors hate &#39;em too.


In isolated inner city ghettos, there is little chance.

Excuse me, do Jews outside Israel, today, live in "inner city ghettos w"? No, most Jews in the U.S., for example, belong to the privileged middle class. Some belong to the upper class and staff prominent positions in the U.S. government. So under those conditions, what&#39;s the class content of the kind of Jewish exclusivism, and distrust of all non-Jews, you advocate?


However, I&#39;ll use Malcolm X as an example.

He believed it was the collective 22 million (at the time) African-Americans fighting off the rule of the collective 150 million whites of America. In his mind, the majority of whites fought against the progress of African Americans, whether they knew it or not.

What is this crap? It&#39;s an awful, awful, analogy. Malcolm X fought against the racists and the imperialists. Zionists ally with them, it&#39;s their whole political basis.

And Malcolm X modified his views on alliances with whites - because he was fighting against racism, and trying to figure out how to advance that fight. Zionists aren&#39;t, and I don&#39;t think you are either.


My point is, many people in the &#39;First World&#39; are quite reactionary when it comes to the progress of their minorities. Working with anti-semites was shameful work, but many Zionists believed that these anti-semites were more open to their dispicable ideas than most in the first world. Therefore, working with anti-semites, in their mind, was little different than working with any random person of the First World.

I&#39;m not agreeing with this idea, I&#39;m just trying to explain.

Bullshit&#33; This is not the reason Zionists ally with imperialism. It&#39;s because an alliance with imperialism is the only way to carve out a settler state in Palestine, against the inevitable resistance of the native population&#33;


You said earlier of fascist regimes taking over, "when they do". Emphasis added.
But that&#39;s not inevitable, it can be resisted.



No, "Jews have a better chance of defending themselves" along with other opponents of fascism. Best of all, by joining the revolutionary working class opposition to capitalism, which breeds fascism.
Fascism is inevitable, until a world revolution finally takes place.

"until a world revolution finally takes place" is obviously a disclaimer - for you, it&#39;s obviously something to wait for like a Christian who believes Jesus will return in the distant future. Not something to fight for, a goal that guides all our political actions today.

So we&#39;re left with "fascism is inevitable" - surrender to fascism.

[Phalanx]

And only "its Arab citizens"? That&#39;s like saying the apartheid regime should grant equal rights to Indians and Coloureds, but leaving out the Africans. What about all the Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from Israel? Do they have the right to breathe air in the land of their birth?

Of course they do&#33; And so do the sons and daughters and grandchildren of those ethnically cleansed from Palestine. Jews also have an ancestral right to the land, so there should be a right of return for both Arabs and Jews.


And "2,000 years of anti-Semitism" is totally ahistorical. If that&#39;s true, why was Zionism only invented in the late 19th century? Heck, if that&#39;s true, why were there any Jews left in Europe to found it?

No, it&#39;s not. Romans brought them to Europe as slaves (not much different than other conquered parts of the empire), but anti-semitism began way before the 19th century. Pogroms in Russia spurred the Zionist movement, but believe me buddy, Jews have been oppressed ever since they landed on European soil.

If there wasn&#39;t anti-semitism, many demographers estimate there would have been 120-800 million Jews in the world.



God, that&#39;s vile. Surrender to fascism, then hold up Israel as an (illusory) refuge against it. As for your distrust for non-Jewish anti-fascist fighters, more later.
Surrender to fascism? No&#33; Even fighting a futile fight is worth undertaking. But I guarantee you we haven&#39;t seen the end of fascism.



Again, not against a fascist USA. Not when all the neighbors hate &#39;em too.

They stand a better chance united than divided.


Excuse me, do Jews outside Israel, today, live in "inner city ghettos w"? No, most Jews in the U.S., for example, belong to the privileged middle class. Some belong to the upper class and staff prominent positions in the U.S. government. So under those conditions, what&#39;s the class content of the kind of Jewish exclusivism, and distrust of all non-Jews, you advocate?

No, of course they don&#39;t. Many live in suburban homes outside the major cities and live quite comfortable lives. But these conditions never last forever. Prussian kings gave Jews (almost) equal rights in the 1600s, but when they got sick of them, herded into the ghettos they went.

I don&#39;t advocate the distrust of all non-Jewish people. I&#39;m saying many survivors of anti-semitism have an extreme distrust of non-Jewish people. A few of my relatives, for example. A Jewish state is the best solution against anti-semitism in the present time.


Bullshit&#33; This is not the reason Zionists ally with imperialism. It&#39;s because an alliance with imperialism is the only way to carve out a settler state in Palestine, against the inevitable resistance of the native population&#33;

Right. This is the only way they believed they could get a state of their own. It&#39;s definately not progressive, but it is the result of years of persecution. They simply believed they couldn&#39;t trust Gentiles. A bad judgement, to be sure, but it&#39;s the stance they took.


"until a world revolution finally takes place" is obviously a disclaimer - for you, it&#39;s obviously something to wait for like a Christian who believes Jesus will return in the distant future. Not something to fight for, a goal that guides all our political actions today.

No, I&#39;m not going to fight for Israel, I&#39;m going to fight for the revolution. I&#39;m playing the devil&#39;s advocated in (trying) to explain the reasons for Israel&#39;s creation. Most of the information we get on here is crap at best, so I&#39;m trying to explain it in my own words. This is not what I believe, but my summary of why Zionism came to be.


So we&#39;re left with "fascism is inevitable" - surrender to fascism.

Fascism is inevitable so long as capitalism exists.