Need a Class Identification

[Vargha Poralli]

What class does the Sales people belong to ?

Obviously they cannot be bourgeoisie since they do not own any means of production .

but at the same time they help exploitation of labour by pushing the sales surplus good for a good profit which eventually goes to the boss.

a bit confusing for me. i am a salesman myself and i feel being distanced from both my employer and labourer's.

[Leo]

What class does the Sales people belong to ?

Obviously they cannot be bourgeoisie since they do not own any means of production .

but at the same time they help exploitation of labour by pushing the sales surplus good for a good profit which eventually goes to the boss.

a bit confusing for me. i am a salesman myself and i feel being distanced from both my employer and labourer's.

Petty bourgeois?

[Bolshevist]

Originally posted by Leo [email protected] 01, 2006 09:47 pm
Petty bourgeois?
The petty bourgeoisie are usually self employed. If your sole existence is based you selling your labor power to a capitalist, I would call you a proletarian. Maybe g.ram is just a better paid proletarian?

[Leo]

Hmm, g.ram; are you paid accordingly to the sales you make?

[loveme4whoiam]

I suppose it could depend on what type of salesman you are. I mean, I wouldn't class Sales Assistants in shops and the like anything other than proletarians. When someone says Salesman, I generally think used cars or double-glazing people (damn those last ones to the bowels of bloody hell - 3 times a day for two damn weeks). If you own the business, I suppose that would make you petty-bourgeoisie - otherwise, you are still giving your labour to a capitalist in exchange for a wage - all be it, a higher wage than some others get (I'm guessing).

[Tekun]

I was also thinking petty-bourgeoisie
Considering that you sell products that are made by the labor of others and that u have day-to-day control over the distribution and exchange of commodities, yep I'd say petty-bourgeoisie

[apathy maybe]

What class does the Sales people belong to ?You mean retail? People who work in shops.


Obviously they cannot be bourgeoisie since they do not own any means of production .But do not actually own the shop.


but at the same time they help exploitation of labour by pushing the sales surplus good for a good profit which eventually goes to the boss.So they are getting a wage.


a bit confusing for me. i am a salesman myself and i feel being distanced from both my employer and labourer's. Do not own anything (means of production or shop).

And are not producing anything.

What you describe means that you can not be petite-bourgeois ('cause they actually own capital and hire others, as well as working themselves). But by the traditional definition of proletariat you cannot be proletariat either (not producing anything).

So really you do not fit easily into the Marxist class structure (not lumpen-proletariat either).


Originally posted by Bolshevist
The petty bourgeoisie are usually self employed. If your sole existence is based you selling your labor power to a capitalist, I would call you a proletarian. Maybe g.ram is just a better paid proletarian?Why better paid? I know of extremely well paid proletariats. Also, no producing anything, has no relation to the means of production.


Marx, I'm afraid old man you failed to predict the future. Oh well, plenty of other people are willing to do it in your name.

(Edit: Fucking quotes)

[Vargha Poralli]

I sholud have made clear.

I make the type who does door to door marketing. i don't know whether this system exists in any other country other than India or not.my boss owns a kitchen accessory company which produces goods like gas stives,electrics cookers,cofee makers likewise.he cant advertise in any form of mass media like TV,Paper etc his finances would not allow that.so he hire's people like us to do the marketing job .we go normally select a area in our city visit each house in the area demonstrate how the product works,what are al;l its advantages of using the product etc. all this happens if we are lucky enough to be heared, Mostly once the owner of the house see's who we are of what we are going to do some 80% of the people close the doors in our face.



Hmm, g.ram; are you paid accordingly to the sales you make?


no leo. i earn about rs.3000(1 USD = Rs.44.7930) a month along with petrol allowance of 1 rs/km.which barely meets my expenses alone.my boss sets me unthinkably difficult target each month so that he can save himself the money i could earn myself as a incentive.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Proletariat. They don't own the means of production. People in other jobs help exploit the proletariat, too, but they get paid in a different way. If they work harder, the might get a bigger piece of the pie. There are just many different ways to get people to work.

[chebol]

Proletariat. Simple.

Marx - if you'd bother to read him - didn't need to predict how much pocket money you make in a week, or whether if you get a bonus this week you suddenly become petty-bourgeois ('because how could you be proletarian with a wage increase?'). The formula is pretty simple. Even most lawyers and doctors are by and large proletarians. The problem lies in people's mistaken belief (and aspirations) - created and fostered under capitalism - that they are, or could be - somehow "more" or "better" than everyone else..... if only they worked harder.

[Hiero]

When defining class alot of people jump to the conclusion, you either own the means of production or you don't. By your relation, you can determine class. However Marx in Wage Labour and Capital states that working class are explioted. Relationship to the means does not always determine expliotating and explioted.

People like the labour aristocracy, petty bourgeois and bourgeois politicians are all explioters. Yet they may do not own means of production.

The question on this forum is often raised, alot of times by apathy maybe. Then I realised what people were doing, they basing it on relationship to production soley. In apathy maybes case, finding it confusing, like he said he knows very well paid proletariat. Expliotation only occurs when you are paid less then what you put into your work. If you are paid your full value or more then you are not explioted. Regardless of ownership or not.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...abour/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm)