Computers after the Revolution

[JRR883]

How do you think computer technology will be applied after the Revolution? How will the development of it be different than it is now?

I could see the community meetings broadcast via streaming video with webcams and microphones for each attending citizen. Perhaps a chatroom for each individual issue, and online polls for voting. This would be particularly useful in large communities where the members couldn't all fit in a building.

Also, I think that the development of computer technology would be more similar to the Open Source model instead of proprietary software. It would be open for everyone to see and improve, which would make it more efficient.

Or do you think since computers are corporate capitalist inventions that we would have to abandon it in its entirety? I suppose that depends on the flavor of leftism you subscribe to. I think it would be a mistake to leave the technology behind. Any tool we could use to unite larger groups of people would be great for society.

Thoughts?

[Sadena Meti]

First things first, as soon as the revolution happens, we must arise as one and get exact revenge on the folks at Microsoft.

And also whoever came up with the best error ever:

"Keyboard error. Press F1 to continue."

[Rodack]

Originally posted by rev-[email protected] 31, 2006 04:44 am
First things first, as soon as the revolution happens, we must arise as one and get exact revenge on the folks at Microsoft.

And also whoever came up with the best error ever:

"Keyboard error. Press F1 to continue."
Should we exact revenge on those who worked at Enron, for daring to step out on their own without our guidence, Comrade?

[BreadBros]

Originally posted by Rodack+November 04, 2006 07:15 pm--> (Rodack @ November 04, 2006 07:15 pm)
rev-[email protected] 31, 2006 04:44 am
First things first, as soon as the revolution happens, we must arise as one and get exact revenge on the folks at Microsoft.

And also whoever came up with the best error ever:

"Keyboard error. Press F1 to continue."
Should we exact revenge on those who worked at Enron, for daring to step out on their own without our guidence, Comrade? [/b]
Huh? Exact revenge? What do you mean "stepping out" and "without our guidance"? Whose guidance? Who stepped out and stepped out of what? lol.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2006 11:31 pm
How do you think computer technology will be applied after the Revolution? How will the development of it be different than it is now?

I could see the community meetings broadcast via streaming video with webcams and microphones for each attending citizen. Perhaps a chatroom for each individual issue, and online polls for voting. This would be particularly useful in large communities where the members couldn't all fit in a building.

Also, I think that the development of computer technology would be more similar to the Open Source model instead of proprietary software. It would be open for everyone to see and improve, which would make it more efficient.

Or do you think since computers are corporate capitalist inventions that we would have to abandon it in its entirety? I suppose that depends on the flavor of leftism you subscribe to. I think it would be a mistake to leave the technology behind. Any tool we could use to unite larger groups of people would be great for society.

Thoughts?
Well certainly computers and the internet would allow for more decentralization since people can easily communicate with others around the world. Direct democracy would also be quite easy.

[SPK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2006 11:31 pm
How do you think computer technology will be applied after the Revolution? How will the development of it be different than it is now?
....
Also, I think that the development of computer technology would be more similar to the Open Source model instead of proprietary software. It would be open for everyone to see and improve, which would make it more efficient.
Yep, open source software is of significantly higher quality than proprietary software written internally by for-profit corporations – having thousands of developers around the world looking at it and trying to fix any problems definitely helps in that regard. Things like Linux should become more prominent after a revolution. At the same time, though, we don’t want to automatically throw away existing applications by Microsoft and other firms, since they are so widely used. The source code could be made public and handed over to open source communities, who could fix issues, eliminate spy-ware, perform needed exorcisms, etc. Collectivizing virtual information such as software and pushing it out to people is a lot simpler than collectivizing something physical like a factory, so this process shouldn’t take that long. And developing the computer applications needed in a revolutionary society shouldn’t require the vast amount of resources that it takes up in a wasteful, inefficient capitalist system.

One thing I think needs to be looked at is the hardware that is used, like processor chips, monitors, hard drives, and so on. Right now, the process for manufacturing these items utilizes too many scarce natural resources that we are rapidly depleting, like precious metals. It also pollutes the natural environment with toxic byproducts -- not to mention the problem of disposing of old computers, which cause further pollution when they’re dumped in landfills. Hardware needs to be redesigned, so that we avoid these issues as old machines or systems break and need to be replaced. Of course, in a communist society, there shouldn’t be a constant turnover of new computer stuff, and that should help in preventing waste – the “churn” that we see today is simply the result of the capitalist drive for increasing profits, which will have disappeared.

[LSD]

How do you think computer technology will be applied after the Revolution?

Much in the same way it is today, albeit on a larger scale.

I don't see revolution as significantly changing how people use computers, after all, they pretty much use them for everything now. Work, play, talk, creation, sex, you name it, someone's found a way to do it on a computer.

All that will change in a post-capitalist environment is that more people will be able to take advantage of the opportunities afforded by technology and that they will be able to do so without fear of running afoul of any anachronistic bourgeois legislation.


I could see the community meetings broadcast via streaming video with webcams and microphones for each attending citizen. Perhaps a chatroom for each individual issue, and online polls for voting. This would be particularly useful in large communities where the members couldn't all fit in a building.

Absolutely.

True democracy is only possible in a tightly interconnected environment and computers play an essential role in that. That's just one of the many reasons why communism is only possible in advanced and developed countries.


Also, I think that the development of computer technology would be more similar to the Open Source model instead of proprietary software. It would be open for everyone to see and improve, which would make it more efficient.

Since there won't be any property, there obviously won't be proprietary software. Anyone will be free to do whatever they want with any piece of software they come across.

And so while no one will force anyone to publish their code, they'll be nothing stopping anyone else from backwards engineering or otherwise deiphering what they've written; and, besides, the social pressure will clearly be towards open sourced projects.

Any closed source programs would quickly be replaced by better backed open sourced ones as they're the ones that have real development potential.


Or do you think since computers are corporate capitalist inventions that we would have to abandon it in its entirety?

Of course not!

That kind of primativist thinking has absolutely nothing to do with the revolutionary left and indeed it is the policy of this board to restrict members advocating that kind of reactionary garbage.


One thing I think needs to be looked at is the hardware that is used, like processor chips, monitors, hard drives, and so on. Right now, the process for manufacturing these items utilizes too many scarce natural resources that we are rapidly depleting, like precious metals.

The rarity of "precious" metals is vastly overstated and computers are hardly the most resource intensive product out there.

But even if they were, they would still be worth producing. Resources are only important insofar as they can be used to make somethign useful. Computers are useful.

If we can come up with easier and/or cheaper ways to make them, great, but if not I don't see any pressing need to stop or reduce computer production. If anything, we should be making more computers as access is currently limited to a rather small elite.

Following a revolution, the number of needed computers will go up, not down. Just like the need for most other personal essentials. The need for outright extravagences like private planes and resorts, however, will vastly decrease.


Of course, in a communist society, there shouldn’t be a constant turnover of new computer stuff, and that should help in preventing waste – the “churn” that we see today is simply the result of the capitalist drive for increasing profits, which will have disappeared.

How do you figure?

Computer technologies advance rather rapidly and I hardly see that rate slowing down under communism. In fact, if anything, it should accelerate. As such I would expect the "churn" to increase rather than "dissapear", especially since vastly more people will gain access to the "newest and latest".

I fail to see how that's a bad thing, however, since increased access to technology and resources is one of the points of communist revolution.

We don't want to limit industrial growth, we want to expand it. We want to open it up to every worker, every person, such that production becomes a completely public endeavour with every product available to every individual.

Obviously that will use a great deal of resources, but there are plenty of untapped resources left on this planet. And the best way to figure out how to best exploit them is, of course, to build more and better computers!

[JRR883]

One thing I think needs to be looked at is the hardware that is used, like processor chips, monitors, hard drives, and so on. Right now, the process for manufacturing these items utilizes too many scarce natural resources that we are rapidly depleting, like precious metals. It also pollutes the natural environment with toxic byproducts -- not to mention the problem of disposing of old computers, which cause further pollution when they’re dumped in landfills. Hardware needs to be redesigned, so that we avoid these issues as old machines or systems break and need to be replaced. Of course, in a communist society, there shouldn’t be a constant turnover of new computer stuff, and that should help in preventing waste – the “churn” that we see today is simply the result of the capitalist drive for increasing profits, which will have disappeared.
I agree. Those problems are finding solutions, though. I know that optical media has been made with kernels (pardon the pun) of corn. Also, proteins have been used in optical media increasing the storage capacity to something like 1TB (I could be wrong, I'll have to check it out once I can find the magazine). This could totally eliminate the need for hard disks (or at least the platters) at all if we could increase the read/write speed to them.

I'm also quite sure that a silicon replacement could be developed with hemp or soy. Though it's possible that without the capitalist drive for profit and with the perpetual recycling of obsolete hardware, we might be able to use the same materials for new hardware. This isn't done now because most of the places that recycle hardware actually charge to do it when they are making a profit off it already.

That kind of primativist thinking has absolutely nothing to do with the revolutionary left and indeed it is the policy of this board to restrict members advocating that kind of reactionary garbage.
Heh sorry. I'm still a newb to the forums and a novice in revolutionary theory.

[Rodack]

Originally posted by BreadBros+November 05, 2006 02:27 am--> (BreadBros @ November 05, 2006 02:27 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 07:15 pm

rev-[email protected] 31, 2006 04:44 am
First things first, as soon as the revolution happens, we must arise as one and get exact revenge on the folks at Microsoft.

And also whoever came up with the best error ever:

"Keyboard error. Press F1 to continue."
Should we exact revenge on those who worked at Enron, for daring to step out on their own without our guidence, Comrade?
Huh? Exact revenge? What do you mean "stepping out" and "without our guidance"? Whose guidance? Who stepped out and stepped out of what? lol. [/b]
What I'm saying, Comrade is, would Enron have been better off if it were Unionized so proper guidence could assist those who worked there, thus preventing the Company to go Bankrupt or should we exact revenge on those who dared to go non union and suffered the consequences of their own stupidity and greed?

[SPK]

Originally posted by LSD+November 04, 2006 11:49 pm--> (LSD @ November 04, 2006 11:49 pm)The rarity of "precious" metals is vastly overstated and computers are hardly the most resource intensive product out there".[/b]
The newsmedia has recently reported that human beings are consuming so many natural resources at such a rapid rate, that we will annually need two planets' worth of those resources by 2050 to keep going at the current clip: Humans Living Far Beyond Planet's Means (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061024/ts_nm/environment_wwf_planet_dc). Since we have only one earth, that is a big problem. I'm confident that if a revolutionary society examines this problem, in regards to design and manufacturing of computer hardware and its impact on the environment, the issue can be effectively resolved in a reasonable period of time. JRR has noted some of the interesting ways this may be possible, using renewables like agricultural products.

Like you, I think computers should play an important part under communism and access to them should be guaranteed to all sectors of the people (which is not the case today). We should use current machines, as long as alternatives are not widely available. Going forward, however, new machines with a smaller ecological footprint will be possible and necessary.


[email protected] 04, 2006 11:49 pm
Computer technologies advance rather rapidly and I hardly see that rate slowing down under communism. In fact, if anything, it should accelerate. As such I would expect the "churn" to increase rather than "dissapear", especially since vastly more people will gain access to the "newest and latest".
Companies and, particularly, consumers in the west tend to replace their PC’s every few years or so. This churn is absurd and, for the most part, a direct result of the capitalist system. For example, Microsoft develops an incrementally-different version of Windows. That operating system is a de-facto standard, so most people have to upgrade – this keeps profits at Microsoft flowing. The new OS requires more physical disk space – this keeps profits flowing at the hard-drive manufacturers. It also requires more internal memory and processing power – this keeps profits flowing at the chip manufacturers, like Intel. All of that essentially translates into people buying a new PC or laptop – this deeps profits flowing at Dell or HP. Other software companies “upgrade” their products to be compatible with the new Windows version or to use the new “features” – well, you get the idea. In the objective, real world, none of this is truly necessary – it is a result of capitalist strategies like planned obsolescence (something is deliberately designed to break after a limited amount of time) and the endless marketing of the “new”.

When the old Playstation 2 game console was released back in 2002, it was so sophisticated (for the time) that the Japanese government was concerned it could be used for advanced weapons development. So I think our current hardware is good enough – we should be able to read our emails and surf the web on that kind of box. :lol: If more processing power is needed, we can use things like massive parallel computing, where thousands of PC’s on a network (like the web) each perform one part of a larger task.