Would this be possible? (a communism alternative).

[AlexJohnson]

Let's say the government puts an insane amount of restrictions on business. Picture every negative of capitalism, and then think of a regulation policy that combats each and every one of those negatives.

One big example would be to say that companies can't be making record profits and not be lowering their costs to the people. That could potentially reduce the cost of just about everything.

Do you think this could potentially eliminate or at least drastically reduce the negative effects of capitalism?

[apathy maybe]

Let's say the government puts an insane amount of restrictions on business. Picture every negative of capitalism, and then think of a regulation policy that combats each and every one of those negatives.

One big example would be to say that companies can't be making record profits and not be lowering their costs to the people. That could potentially reduce the cost of just about everything.

Do you think this could potentially eliminate or at least drastically reduce the negative effects of capitalism?

Umm... Firstly, a quick check, you do know that communism is a class-less state-less society where everything is held in common? Good.

Right, now for my answer, no. It would also not reduce the negative effects of state/government, which are also darn bad.

Actually, yes it would reduce some of the problems of capitalism, but the state would have to be significantly bigger to implement the changes, which would offset the gains in "freedom" that we got from restricting capitalism in the first place.

A much better idea would be to simply shoot all the politicians and capitalists, and go straight for anarchism.

[Whitten]

All it would do is remove the profitary incentive capitalists recieve for efficiancy.

[Kez]

why would the capitalists allow such restrictions? surely they would back a party which didnt make such restrictions?

also, even if restrictions were made in one country, capital would just leave to another country.

[MrDoom]

Bourgeois socialist, go figure.

[AlexJohnson]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2006 03:14 pm
Bourgeois socialist, go figure.
I'm sorry but our best hope of seeing change in our lifetimes is through social democracy, not socialism.

Sweden's not so bad compared to the US, don't you agree?

[LoneRed]

I fight for socialism, not for myself, but for everyone, the steps I, and other comrades make, help make that come sooner. We all would want them to come in our lifetime, but thats not whats driving me

[Entrails Konfetti]

We really have to get past this stage of capitalism, if we don't, mankind will never look foward. An ideology of a society must progress and move to better things always.

Social-Democracy is just capitalism with a friendly face, stagnance forever more. More paying bills, more wondering why the hell you go to school just get a piece of paper that says your qualified-- when you lack real enrichment, more shit jobs, more apathy towards any function your government does, more repression, more bigotry, more sexism, more homophobia...

Your world is depressing.

[RebelDog]

With the globalised nature of the free-market these days it would be impossible to keep a tight rein on private business in one country. They would just bugger-off to another country to make their products elsewhere. The big corporations are effectively holding a gun to everyones head. If they were to seemingly pass record profits on by lowering their prices that wouldn't benefit workers, as wages would go down with prices. We sell our labour to the capitalist in a market, that is why a level of unemployment is good for the capitalist, it keeps wages down.
Corporations are dictating the way it has to be, we have to reject this and destroy them and their state protectors.

[RebelDog]

We really have to get past this stage of capitalism, if we don't, mankind will never look foward. An ideology of a society must progress and move to better things always.

Social-Democracy is just capitalism with a friendly face, stagnance forever more. More paying bills, more wondering why the hell you go to school just get a piece of paper that says your qualified-- when you lack real enrichment, more shit jobs, more apathy towards any function your government does, more repression, more bigotry, more sexism, more homophobia...

Your world is depressing.

Yeah, it gets depressing. I sometimes rue the fact I live in the capitalist epoch but then I think let capitalism rue the fact we live in the capitalist epoch when we destroy it.

[AlexJohnson]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 31, 2006 06:06 am
We really have to get past this stage of capitalism, if we don't, mankind will never look foward. An ideology of a society must progress and move to better things always.

Social-Democracy is just capitalism with a friendly face, stagnance forever more. More paying bills, more wondering why the hell you go to school just get a piece of paper that says your qualified-- when you lack real enrichment, more shit jobs, more apathy towards any function your government does, more repression, more bigotry, more sexism, more homophobia...

Your world is depressing.
I think taking small steps in the right direction is the only shot we've got to making the world better.

I would love socialism to take root, trust me, but revolution doesn't have a very high success rate.

We have to logical about this.

[Tekun]

^Logic, by capitalist standards, makes us submit to the will of those who tell us how much, how long, and how hard to work for petty pay

Logic in a capitalist society is to conform and feel satisfied with the rubbish that we have in our lives, and never to jeopardize ourselves and our families in order to achieve a better way of life

If anything, we see this as illogical...illogical is to be treated like a machine and never strive to improve our conditions, to be satisfied with the current system

If by logic u stress satisfaction with the current system be it social democracy or anything but communism, I'll choose illogicality

[RebelDog]

We have to logical about this.

We have to be logical and swallow the pill that makes us ill.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2006 06:25 am
I think taking small steps in the right direction is the only shot we've got to making the world better.

You're one of those old social-democrats. I can't believe you still exist.


I would love socialism to take root, trust me, but revolution doesn't have a very high success rate.

Todays social-democrats can't even figure out if their liberal-capitalists who like alot of nationalized programs, or not. Also, you end up taking your chair alongside your liberal allies-- whom every now and then get tricked into supporting imperialistic invasions (courtesy of neo-liberal conservatives). You get suckered into their schemes, you lose the ability to think in a developmental method-- it's all today, it's always today, never tommorow. The Bourgoeis- Democratic process makes it so third parties never make up the majority; no equal spending on campaigns, buffers against the voters, funding from corporations, cronyism. The ones with money have the power.

Revolutions on the other hand come in ebbs and flows. We're more likely to make a tidal wave than to guilt the ruling classes out of taking power.


We have to logical about this.

I'm not some fanatic, I'm not some member of the SLA.
A revolution is an armed action of defence, these defences happen because historically ruling-classes do not take to the interests that will end all theirs. They greet the new ideas with hostillity-- you can't expect them commit suicide.

You try to make compromises with the ruling classes, and you hope "Maybe they will see the light", and they hope "Maybe the social-dems will see the light".
It's a deadlocked situtation. Stagnance and depression.

I don't know why you are for socialism, my guess is that like all social-democrats is that you find it more morally conscience to yourself-- thus the concepts of rights and wrongs. Like Robert Owen, and Fourier before you.

Me, I don't need your morals-- I'm in it because it's in my best interests. Socialism to Communism will ensure the survival of our species, because it will usher in peace. Capitalism in relation to the exploited is like a master abusing their dog constantly, the dog fights back and rips the masters face to shreds because he has to survive, all the dog ever wanted was to lay about all day-- he wanted peace, but when he's threatened by losing his own mortallity-- his peace is disrupted, so he has to fight back. Socialism is all about peace, there are no masters to ever abuse you. It's in my best interests to survive, and under Socialism and Communism I'll be doing more than surviving, I'll be living!

[Janus]

Moved.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2006 06:29 am
Let's say the government puts an insane amount of restrictions on business. Picture every negative of capitalism, and then think of a regulation policy that combats each and every one of those negatives.

One big example would be to say that companies can't be making record profits and not be lowering their costs to the people. That could potentially reduce the cost of just about everything.

Do you think this could potentially eliminate or at least drastically reduce the negative effects of capitalism?
That's social democracy and it doesn't work. Even if they do improve worker rights or living standards, that will all be reversed in the next election when the conservative party comes to office.

[AlexJohnson]

Originally posted by EL KABLAMO+October 31, 2006 11:51 pm--> (EL KABLAMO @ October 31, 2006 11:51 pm)
[email protected] 31, 2006 06:25 am
I think taking small steps in the right direction is the only shot we've got to making the world better.

You're one of those old social-democrats. I can't believe you still exist.


I would love socialism to take root, trust me, but revolution doesn't have a very high success rate.

Todays social-democrats can't even figure out if their liberal-capitalists who like alot of nationalized programs, or not. Also, you end up taking your chair alongside your liberal allies-- whom every now and then get tricked into supporting imperialistic invasions (courtesy of neo-liberal conservatives). You get suckered into their schemes, you lose the ability to think in a developmental method-- it's all today, it's always today, never tommorow. The Bourgoeis- Democratic process makes it so third parties never make up the majority; no equal spending on campaigns, buffers against the voters, funding from corporations, cronyism. The ones with money have the power.

Revolutions on the other hand come in ebbs and flows. We're more likely to make a tidal wave than to guilt the ruling classes out of taking power.


We have to logical about this.

I'm not some fanatic, I'm not some member of the SLA.
A revolution is an armed action of defence, these defences happen because historically ruling-classes do not take to the interests that will end all theirs. They greet the new ideas with hostillity-- you can't expect them commit suicide.

You try to make compromises with the ruling classes, and you hope "Maybe they will see the light", and they hope "Maybe the social-dems will see the light".
It's a deadlocked situtation. Stagnance and depression.

I don't know why you are for socialism, my guess is that like all social-democrats is that you find it more morally conscience to yourself-- thus the concepts of rights and wrongs. Like Robert Owen, and Fourier before you.

Me, I don't need your morals-- I'm in it because it's in my best interests. Socialism to Communism will ensure the survival of our species, because it will usher in peace. Capitalism in relation to the exploited is like a master abusing their dog constantly, the dog fights back and rips the masters face to shreds because he has to survive, all the dog ever wanted was to lay about all day-- he wanted peace, but when he's threatened by losing his own mortallity-- his peace is disrupted, so he has to fight back. Socialism is all about peace, there are no masters to ever abuse you. It's in my best interests to survive, and under Socialism and Communism I'll be doing more than surviving, I'll be living! [/b]
1. Would you agree with my that Sweden is a step in the right direction compared to the US?

2. Revolutions typically end up with the country being controlled by a dictator. I think Cuba is doing a lot better than most of Latin America, but Cuba will never see real communism.



So, can you blame me for wanting to take small steps in the right direction instead of revolution?

[Module]

Besides that, this is the learning forum!
How the hell can any of you expect to spread your ideas if you're putting down other people who want to 'learn'?
STFU, I say.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by AlexJohnson+November 01, 2006 06:51 am--> (AlexJohnson @ November 01, 2006 06:51 am) 1. Would you agree with my that Sweden is a step in the right direction compared to the US? [/b]
No.
Though one is considered friendlier to workers than the other, neither have any workers control over the economy or government.


2. Revolutions typically end up with the country being controlled by a dictator. I think Cuba is doing a lot better than most of Latin America, but Cuba will never see real communism.

"Typically" if you're talking about the past Communist revolutions that we're based on a party taking power that tried to tak for the workers-- yeah thats true. But we have yet to see what will happen when there aren't parties taking power "in the name of the workers", but just the workers themselves. See the new approach is learned from the past revolutions-- like I said revolutions come in ebbs and flows, and we learn from the last, then maybe theres a tidal wave.

You say Cuba will never reach real Communism, but theres no proof supporting Sweden will either.


So, can you blame me for wanting to take small steps in the right direction instead of revolution?

You're assuming I'm with you on this one. I'm not. So I blame you.
I blame you because historically Social-Democrats have opposed any time workers have taken power in their own hands, and said "We don't want to upset the applecart, lets work this out with the upper-classes".
You don't believe in us, we're just pathetic dregs who need some mothers milk.


mogenim
Besides that, this is the learning forum!
How the hell can any of you expect to spread your ideas if you're putting down other people who want to 'learn'?
STFU, I say.

I have not flamed my opponent, and this was originally postyed in the politics section where topics are open for debate.