Bus burnings in Paris

[Pawn Power]

Bus attacks rattle Paris suburbs (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/26/europe/EU_GEN_France_Suburban_Violence.php)


Youths forced passengers off three buses and set them on fire in suburbs around Paris in overnight attacks that raised tension a year after riots shocked the nation. In one of the incidents the attackers were armed with handguns.

France has been a very hot place particularly in the last few years; immigrant riots, worker strikes, student protests. What will come of this? Effects of distrimination and exploitation are clear factors. Why have the French peple been noticably more radical then other European countries lately and is this action contructive or helpful? And how come there are no French users on this board?

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by Revolution is the [email protected] 26, 2006 05:46 pm
Bus attacks rattle Paris suburbs (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/26/europe/EU_GEN_France_Suburban_Violence.php)


Youths forced passengers off three buses and set them on fire in suburbs around Paris in overnight attacks that raised tension a year after riots shocked the nation. In one of the incidents the attackers were armed with handguns.

France has been a very hot place particularly in the last few years; immigrant riots, worker strikes, student protests. What will come of this? Effects of distrimination and exploitation are clear factors. Why have the French peple been noticably more radical then other European countries lately and is this action contructive or helpful? And how come there are no French users on this board?
is this recent ?

that would mean the riots of last fall are comming back, jeeehaa :D

[*PRC*Kensei]

hmmm...it is reacent.

this action isnt constructive since it's not ideoligical.

HOWEVER it's very helpfull in showing the people that there IS something wrong with society & there ARE people getting oppressed, and show them they wont take it any longer.

who knows it might become as big as last year... if it does, i'm getting popcorn :D

[The Grey Blur]

I'm not sure what the lack of French members is down to, that's quite the mystery.

I think what we need to see in France is the ideologically motivated students linking up with the economically alienated beaunlieus dwellers. Still, like PRC said, it's an interesting situation to watch develop...

[An archist]

I just hope that they don't start burning cars again, that was incredibly useless.
Busses,... maybe, but they should think of targeting police or other state tools/buildings rather then innocent people.

[razboz]

Most of the peopl trying to give this a poltical spin (mostly Trotskyists and mainstream SOcialists) have been laughed at at best. I think its a mistake to put the ill-ease of the Banlliues into a political framework, cos it wont fit. These peeps arent COmmunists. Theyre just tired with the way France is being run, and who tis being run by. These are not politicised grouped. Theyre just very angry and bored. They are impremeable to politics. As soon as they get what they want (money basically) they are happy.

Thats my analysis anyway.

Oh and my source of authirity is the fact i live close to France and know many people who are part of this.

[which doctor]

Rioting in the suburbs outside Paris has not really stopped at all since last year.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2414175,00.html

Lot's of people make careful note that these youth are muslims but I doubt this has anything to do with religion.

[*PRC*Kensei]

watch the movie "la haine" and you will understand them. thats the best advice i can give you.

[Morag]

This article is from yesterday's Independent: The Outsiders: John Lichfield in the Banlieues - one year on (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article1930641.ece). I thought it was very good. it discusses the cultural, ethnic, and religious make-up of the rioters.

[razboz]

Originally posted by *PRC*[email protected] 27, 2006 11:20 am
watch the movie "la haine" and you will understand them. thats the best advice i can give you.
Can you provide some more info on this? Like a producer/actor/type/where i can get it?

[The Grey Blur]

La Haine (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113247/)

Injured by a police inspector during an interrogation, Abdel is at a hospital, almost dead. In the suburbs where he lives, some riots happened during the night, and one policeman lost his gun. One of Abdel's friends, Vinz, finds it. Vinz and his two pals, Said and Hubert, have nothing to do so they try to kill time. Vinz swears that if Abdel dies, he will shoot a policeman...

Brilliant film

[An archist]

well the bus that was stopped was stopped by armed youths, last year, some shots were fired at policemen.
this will get nasty

[Patriot76]

Why did these Africans bother to move to France in the first place?

It seems they want to destroy everything in sight.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Lot's of people make careful note that these youth are muslims but I doubt this has anything to do with religion.

It has nothing to do with it.

As this article (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?62) from The Free Press said last year: "corporate media throughout the world attempted to paint the rebels as religiously motivated Muslim extremists, even though the the Union of French Islamic Organizations issued a fatwa, or religious edict, forbidding “any Muslim seeking divine grace and satisfaction to participate in any action that blindly hits private or public property or could constitute an attack on someone’s life.” (Revolt of youth without religious motivation, Financial Times, November 8, 2005).

"Lhaj Thami Breze, who is chairman of the UFIO, even went as far as to agree with Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy's description of the young rebels as "scum"."

[bcbm]

Originally posted by *PRC*[email protected] 26, 2006 01:13 pm
this action isnt constructive since it's not ideoligical.
It is better that way. These lumpen-proletarian youths are not motivated by ideology pushers and so-called leftists who will only try to reign in and exploit their rage, they are autonomously acting out their hostility against society by attacking all aspects of it they can get their hands on: look especially at the number of police injured, I believe it is an average of 14 per day! This is an insurrection of the dispossessed and I wholeheartedly support it.

[The Grey Blur]

Why did these Africans bother to move to France in the first place?
Only 2% of the rioters were born outside of France


It seems they want to destroy everything in sight.
That's because they do. It's not our place to psychoanalyze each and every rioter but it's obvious this is neither a race, religious or social problem but a class problem.


These lumpen-proletarian youths are not motivated by ideology pushers and so-called leftists who will only try to reign in and exploit their rage
That is incredible - you support blindly these riots but not any attempt to direct the anger at the true enemies? :wacko:

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by PR
That is incredible - you support blindly these riots but not any attempt to direct the anger at the true enemies?

The pigs are class enemies are they not?

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 10:03 am
Why did these Africans bother to move to France in the first place?

It seems they want to destroy everything in sight.
They moved to France for the same reason most people immigrate. Better jobs, chance to live in the first-world, better future.


It seems they want to destroy everything in sight.
What can they say? Insurrection is very liberating!

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+October 27, 2006 06:11 pm--> (Black Dagger @ October 27, 2006 06:11 pm)
PR
That is incredible - you support blindly these riots but not any attempt to direct the anger at the true enemies?

The pigs are class enemies are they not? [/b]
The pigs are the hired arm of the class enemies

[Tekun]

Despite an influx of funds and promises since then, disenchantment still thrives in those communities

No shit...petty reforms do very lil to quench our thirst for freedom and equality

Interesting to note how the media focuses on these violent reactions to the current situation, yet when nothing happens and these youths are being discriminated and violated, the media is nowhere to be found

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Permanent Revolution+October 28, 2006 09:19 am--> (Permanent Revolution @ October 28, 2006 09:19 am)
Originally posted by Black [email protected] 27, 2006 06:11 pm

PR
That is incredible - you support blindly these riots but not any attempt to direct the anger at the true enemies?

The pigs are class enemies are they not?
The pigs are the hired arm of the class enemies [/b]
But they are enemies nonetheless yes?

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+October 28, 2006 04:11 pm--> (Black Dagger @ October 28, 2006 04:11 pm)
Originally posted by Permanent Revolution+October 28, 2006 09:19 am--> (Permanent Revolution @ October 28, 2006 09:19 am)
Black [email protected] 27, 2006 06:11 pm

PR
That is incredible - you support blindly these riots but not any attempt to direct the anger at the true enemies?

The pigs are class enemies are they not?
The pigs are the hired arm of the class enemies [/b]
But they are enemies nonetheless yes? [/b]
Cops are, but buses are neutral. Actually public transport is on the side of the workers, and thoose who operate the public transport.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Hiero+October 28, 2006 04:10 pm--> (Hiero @ October 28, 2006 04:10 pm)
Originally posted by Black Dagger+October 28, 2006 04:11 pm--> (Black Dagger @ October 28, 2006 04:11 pm)
Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 28, 2006 09:19 am

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 27, 2006 06:11 pm

[email protected]
That is incredible - you support blindly these riots but not any attempt to direct the anger at the true enemies?

The pigs are class enemies are they not?
The pigs are the hired arm of the class enemies
But they are enemies nonetheless yes? [/b]
Cops are, but buses are neutral. Actually public transport is on the side of the workers, and thoose who operate the public transport. [/b]
Right, my comments were in response to what BBBG had said:


BBBG
It is better that way. These lumpen-proletarian youths are not motivated by ideology pushers and so-called leftists who will only try to reign in and exploit their rage, they are autonomously acting out their hostility against society by attacking all aspects of it they can get their hands on: look especially at the number of police injured, I believe it is an average of 14 per day! This is an insurrection of the dispossessed and I wholeheartedly support it.

What was being emphasised was their attacks on police, not on public transport :P

[The Grey Blur]

If anyone thinks these riots are in anyway revolutionary you are an idiot, they're just entirely self-destructive. Yes, these youths' anger is understandable but that neither means us 'ideology pushers' or you 'blow-shit-up pushers' need to cheer them on in burning public transport and community facilities.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 28, 2006 12:13 pm
If anyone thinks these riots are in anyway revolutionary you are an idiot, they're just entirely self-destructive. Yes, these youths' anger is understandable but that neither means us 'ideology pushers' or you 'blow-shit-up pushers' need to cheer them on in burning public transport and community facilities.
ah comon;

you must see the diffirence between a country & a city: to france this doesnt mean real danger, but on the scale of paris itself this is a mini-revolutionary situation.

last year it was more then "just some kids beeing naughty" , it was a hudge movement, by all those opressed by paris society.
they gave clear signal: we will take what you would not give.

btw u guys in north ireland never burned a bus eh ? i even have that on video. well we support the irisch people to, so why not the paris workless.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 03:03 pm
Why did these Africans bother to move to France in the first place?

It seems they want to destroy everything in sight.
ehm...

do i smell racism / nationalism ? :o

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by PR+--> (PR) If anyone thinks these riots are in anyway revolutionary you are an idiot, they're just entirely self-destructive. Yes, these youths' anger is understandable but that neither means us 'ideology pushers' or you 'blow-shit-up pushers' need to cheer them on in burning public transport and community facilities.
[/b]

No one said they were 'revolutionary', nor am i cheering them on to burn down community facilities or public transport, you read my last post yeah?


Originally posted by [email protected]

Right, my comments were in response to what BBBG had said:


BBBG
It is better that way. These lumpen-proletarian youths are not motivated by ideology pushers and so-called leftists who will only try to reign in and exploit their rage, they are autonomously acting out their hostility against society by attacking all aspects of it they can get their hands on: look especially at the number of police injured, I believe it is an average of 14 per day! This is an insurrection of the dispossessed and I wholeheartedly support it.

What was being emphasised was their attacks on police, not on public transport :P

[bcbm]

That is incredible - you support blindly these riots but not any attempt to direct the anger at the true enemies?

I'm speaking of the scum who would use this anger to further their own careers in the management of the oppressed, not attempts to make this rage an even greater assault against society. There are those in the upper tiers of unions and parties who seem to get squeamish whenever those who are suffering and dispossessed actually start fighting back, and do everything they can to restore order, often in the name of "fighting the true enemies." Such individuals deserve nothing but scorn, or worse.


Cops are, but buses are neutral. Actually public transport is on the side of the workers, and thoose who operate the public transport.

The state runs the busses and although it has no real benefit in terms of oppression, it remains an aspect of the state and one which these youth can easily access and use as a tool to show their rage. The real targets have always been the police throughout these uprisings, but some excesses are inevitable and not altogether inexcusable.


If anyone thinks these riots are in anyway revolutionary you are an idiot, they're just entirely self-destructive. Yes, these youths' anger is understandable but that neither means us 'ideology pushers' or you 'blow-shit-up pushers' need to cheer them on in burning public transport and community facilities.


Who said anything about them being revolutionary? They are insurrectionary, and that is entirely the point. Whatever revolution eventually topples this nightmare of a society we've created will probably look more like this than anything else; an authentic uprising of the under-classes with the aim of destroying the upper classes through massive violence. In the mean time, I will cheer on all such outbursts against society, not talk-shit on the most marginalized people for not fitting into some narrow idea of what the class war should look like.

[Hiero]

The state runs the busses and although it has no real benefit in terms of oppression, it remains an aspect of the state and one which these youth can easily access and use as a tool to show their rage.

Who do you think rides the buses? Workers of course. Progressive forces should not damage the people's property or what the people use. In alot of cases public transport only exists because the working class have fought for it. In my city have still have a train because people united to fight the removal of line.

The act was an expersion of rage no doubt. However this expression is not realised, it just scares the hell out of the bus driver (a worker) and the workers who ride the buses. These acts only futher alienate these lumpen proletariat from the working class. We should acknowledge these acts as a mirror image of the violence and destructive life these young lumpen proleterait face from the French state. It doesn't mean we have to try and twist them into progressive acts.

[IronColumn]

Leninists obviously aren't going to like actions that aren't planned and controlled by them. It's a good thing their pathetic "worker states" collapsed, now we can get on with the important things.

[More Fire for the People]

Anyone who denies that a working class riot has either spent too much time huddled over the collected works of such and such author or has willingly taken up an anti-worker line. Every working class riot is an expression of the social antagonism between worker and capital. It stretches society until it snaps — all illusions of civil society are abandoned and the state must resort to the use of shear violence to subdue the rioting masses.

However,

What will come of this?
This, like all mass working class actions, will all be for nought if the working class does not organise into a soviet system. Soviet in the sense of working class power through democratic councils. A system in the sense of the organized dictatorship of the proletariat.

[The Grey Blur]

last year it was more then "just some kids beeing naughty" , it was a hudge movement, by all those opressed by paris society.
I haven't trivialised these riots or the scale.


they gave clear signal: we will take what you would not give.
Yet they were caused by police brutality and the main victims were other working-class people - the truth is there was no "clear signal". That's why we're having this argument.


btw u guys in north ireland never burned a bus eh ? i even have that on video. well we support the irisch people to
Buses were burned during the Troubles yeah but, unlike Paris this had a practical side; that the IRA could set up a money-making taxi service. But that's besides the point - just because buses have been burned in Ireland doesn't mean we support all bus burnings! :lol:


, so why not the paris workless.
If you read the Independent article linked above you'll find that most rioters were actually employed or at school.


I'm speaking of the scum who would use this anger to further their own careers in the management of the oppressed, not attempts to make this rage an even greater assault against society
Then I completely agree.


No one said they were 'revolutionary', nor am i cheering them on to burn down community facilities or public transport, you read my last post yeah?
Did you read my initial post?


If anyone thinks these riots are in anyway revolutionary you are an idiot, they're just entirely self-destructive. Yes, these youths' anger is understandable but that neither means us 'ideology pushers' or you 'blow-shit-up pushers' need to cheer them on in burning public transport and community facilities.

You can't sort the rioter's actions into 'good' (fighting cops) or 'bad' (burning facilities) boxes, you have to analyse their actions on the whole and whether they have been positive or negative for the working-class people who live in the Beanliues.


In the mean time, I will cheer on all such outbursts against society, not talk-shit on the most marginalized people for not fitting into some narrow idea of what the class war should look like.
Constructive critiscism of these actions is the only way forward. The class war will be on a broad scale but any attempts to twist these riots into progressive acts with their current methods is blind ignorance.

[*PRC*Kensei]

no sighnal was made ?

"we want work"
"we want a better living area"
"we want to get rid of this random arrestments & checks by the police when we go out"
"we want sarkozi to fuck off"

i think this are the main lines i hear over & over again last year.

and a main signal to whole europa: SOMETHING's WRONG.

Busses just burn very well. there are 2 things that you can put on fire in a street: cars & busses. they dont have many choice ;)

It's not about victims, it's about an OPRESSED MINORITY that is sick of living on the edge of society for generations & wants to claim a better life.
if they dont do something the will remain nobody's, just like their children & grand children.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2006 12:07 pm
Who do you think rides the buses? Workers of course. Progressive forces should not damage the people's property or what the people use. In alot of cases public transport only exists because the working class have fought for it. In my city have still have a train because people united to fight the removal of line.
As I said, it remains an aspect of the state and one which these youth can easily access and use as a tool to show their rage. The real targets have always been the police throughout these uprisings, but some excesses are inevitable and not altogether inexcusable. I am not altogether very concerned with busses when these youth are discriminated against and forgotten in suburban ghettos.


The act was an expersion of rage no doubt. However this expression is not realised, it just scares the hell out of the bus driver (a worker) and the workers who ride the buses.

The fact that stopped and evacuated the busses before torching them clearly shows they have no intention to harm workers or bus-riders, merely to send a message through the destruction of property.


These acts only futher alienate these lumpen proletariat from the working class. We should acknowledge these acts as a mirror image of the violence and destructive life these young lumpen proleterait face from the French state. It doesn't mean we have to try and twist them into progressive acts.

Who's twisting them? I've always stated that they are an expression of rage against society by those it has dispossessed, nothing less and nothing more. I don't think they alienate anyone but those too timid and too accepting of the current state of affairs to lash out against that which exploits and impoverishs them.