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BreadBros
26th October 2006, 09:30
From http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wo...-home-headlines (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-abort26oct26,0,7331168.story?coll=la-home-headlines) :


Nicaragua poised to outlaw all abortions
Most parties back the measure, which church leaders helped draft. Medical and rights groups denounce it.
By Héctor Tobar, Times Staff Writer
October 26, 2006

Nicaragua's legislature is expected today to approve a tough law that outlaws all forms of abortion, including those procedures intended to save the life of a pregnant woman.

The measure has been supported by most major political parties ahead of the Nov. 5 presidential election, as they seek to win over voters in this overwhelmingly Roman Catholic country. Leaders of the Catholic Church in Nicaragua helped draft the bill and have mobilized followers to support it.

Medical associations in the country and international human rights groups have strongly criticized the proposal.

Since the late 1980s, two other Latin American countries have adopted similar measures — El Salvador and Chile. At least 34 countries, mostly in Africa and the Middle East, prohibit all abortions, without exception, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights, a U.S.-based nonprofit advocacy group.

The new law would establish prison sentences of six to 30 years for women who abort their pregnancies and the doctors who perform the procedure.

Leaders of the leftist Sandinista National Liberation Front and the ruling right-wing Liberal Alliance have said their representatives will vote for the proposal. The two groups control all but one seat in the 92-member legislature.

[...]


Women's groups in Nicaragua charge that the proposed law is a cynical preelection ploy that panders to the influence of the Catholic Church. The text of the law, they note, is almost identical to a church proposal drafted this year.

Outgoing President Enrique Bolanos fast-tracked the bill, using his authority to present emergency legislation to the National Assembly.

[...]

Ipas estimates that 32,000 illegal abortions are performed in Nicaragua each year, many under unsafe conditions. Only 24 abortions authorized by law have been performed in the country in the last three years.

In 2003, a 9-year-old rape victim received an abortion under the current law's provisions.

Nearly all Latin American countries outlaw abortion, but most, including Nicaragua, allow the procedure in cases of rape and to preserve the life of a pregnant woman. Many countries, including Mexico, are working to make abortion more accessible to women who qualify for such exceptions.

"We see this proposal as part of a backlash," said Luisa Cabal of the Center for Reproductive Rights. "This not only goes against a regional and international trend, it would be a human rights violation in itself."

Ambassadors from some of the countries that donate millions of dollars in aid to Nicaragua, including Sweden and Finland, wrote to the legislators this week urging them not to rush to approve the measure. Nicaragua is one of the poorest nations in the hemisphere and depends heavily on foreign aid.

[...]

Only one of the four leading candidates in the presidential election has come out against the law — Edmundo Jarquin of the Sandinista Renovation Movement, a dissident faction of the Sandinista Front.

Presidential candidate Daniel Ortega of the Sandinista Front, who holds a large lead in most polls, has spoken out in favor of the measure. Ortega, who is seeking to return to the office he held in the 1980s, in September signed a declaration drafted by evangelical leaders that declared the existing abortion laws in Nicaragua are "a pretext to legalize all abortions."

[...]

Ana Maria Pizarro of the Autonomous Women's Movement said the Sandinistas' backing of the tough new antiabortion law had caused a private split among the party's top female leaders.

"The position of the party leadership is hypocritical and opportunistic," Pizarro said. "They've created a crisis within the women's movement of the Sandinista Front."

Up until now I had seen the possible election of Daniel Ortega and the Sandinista Front as a possibly progressive thing, considering the fact that Ortega is an ally of Chavez, Morales, Castro and would help in Latin America breaking away from the influence of Washington and neoliberalism. However, this news is very bad. This isnt jjust progressive reformism like Chavez pursues, this is reactionary, its origin is the Catholic Church! This throws my judgment of the Sandinistas into question now. What do people think of this? What is the situation in Nicaragua? As the article states, the Sandinistas were once very pro-feminist, why have they changed like this? Hopefully the dissident faction in the FSLN will give voice to the left on this issue.

edit: the bold and [...] sections were added by me to the article post, just wanted to make that clear

Cheung Mo
26th October 2006, 14:35
If you are anti-choice or homophobic, you should be lynched in the streets for having the nerve to call yourself a socialist. Using religious superstition as justification for restricting the civil liberties of one's compatriots represents a direct affront to everything that Karl Marx stood for.

Sadena Meti
26th October 2006, 15:14
You can't change entrenched religious beliefs in one generation, or even in three. It is a Catholic country like most of Central and South America.

However, absolute bans like this can actually be useful, because most people prefer moderation, not absolutism. So this full ban will help unite feminist, progressive, and anti-reactionary (not the same thing as revolutionary) people and ideology in opposition to it.

This reactionary ban will have an anti-reactionary backlash, which will help errode the entrenched religious beliefs of this country, which will bring benefit not only to this issue but to others.


Often things have to get worse in order to get better.


* edit - useful stats
Religious Composition of Nicaragua
Roman Catholic 72.9%
Evangelical 15.1%
Moravian 1.5%
Episcopal 0.1%
other 1.9%
none 8.5%

That would make it between 80-90% pro-life / anti-choice.

Cheung Mo
26th October 2006, 16:19
I suppose you have a point: Even here in Canada, Quebeckers never understood the value of secularism until they saw the worst of the theocracy in the 1940s and 1950s. Nowadays, there is nobody on this continent with a better grasp of the secular state's superiority (however wrong Quebeckers may still be about many other issues).

I guess it'll have to get at least as theocratic in other ultramontanist bastions like Nicaragua or the Philippines

Nothing Human Is Alien
26th October 2006, 17:25
Ortega isn't what he used to be (or more correctly, was forced to be by the grass roots nature of the Sandanista movement). He's nothing more than a bourgeois politician today. Don't expect to get much out of him. His brother operated the army even years after the FSLN "lost" the elections. Look for an Ortega presidency to look like Lula's in Brazil.

There have already been splits in the FSLN, and there's talk this will cause another. The good thing I see that can come out of this, is for the authentically revolutionary workers in the FSLN (and there are many), to see the Ortega leadership for what it is, and break away -- in order to form a genuine party of the working class. In the past I would have hoped for the rank and file of the party to oust Ortega, but he has shown himself to be practically entrenched in the last few years.

Of course Washington still doesn't want Ortega to be reelected, because of what the Sandanistas once represented, and because there are authentic revolutionaries in the party.

LoneRed
26th October 2006, 17:35
ya Id check out the Party of sandinista revision, or something like that, they split with the FSLN but are still a sandinista party

Nothing Human Is Alien
26th October 2006, 17:54
No they're not. The Sandinista Renovation Movement is democratic socialist.

Andy Bowden
26th October 2006, 20:35
Another time to raise the slogan "SOCIALISTA NOT DANIELISTA". :angry:

Nothing Human Is Alien
26th October 2006, 22:09
Well, the vote went through. All abortions have been banned in Nicragua.

Louis Pio
26th October 2006, 22:14
Well, the vote went through. All abortions have been banned in Nicragua.

Shit, extremely reactionary and a big blow to the womens right to their own body. What we will see now is more children getting abandoned and more poor young women dying because they need to go see some hack to get an abortion. Sad indeed...

Nothing Human Is Alien
26th October 2006, 22:17
Nicaraguan Congress votes to ban all abortions, even where mother endangered
Thursday October 26, 2006
By FILADELFO ALEMAN
Associated Press Writer

MANAGUA, Nicaragua (AP) Nicaragua's Congress voted Thursday to ban all abortions, including those that could save a mother's life.

If signed into law by President Enrique Bolanos, the measure would eliminate a century-old exception to Nicaragua's abortion ban that permits the procedure if three doctors certify that the woman's health is at risk.

Fifty-two lawmakers voted for the measure. Nine lawmakers abstained and 29 others did not attend the legislative session.

Bolanos has proposed increasing prison sentences for illegal abortions currently around six years to 10 to 30 years for women who have the procedure as well as those who assist them.

But it was unclear whether he would sign the bill approved Thursday after lawmakers decided not to increase the penalties in this predominantly Roman Catholic country.

The bill has drawn protests from women's rights groups, and the Women's Autonomous Movement has said it was prepared to seek an injunction to block the measure if it passed.

Congress approved the bill despite a letter from European Union diplomats and U.N. representatives asking lawmakers to hold off on voting on the issue until after the Nov. 5 presidential elections.

U.N. official Rebeca Grynspan, who is in Nicaragua this week, told reporters, ``It's very difficult that this (be determined) during an electoral period.''

Nicaragua's medical association also urged legislators to postpone the vote, saying the issue had become politicized.

Sandinista leader Daniel Ortega, who was a supporter of abortion rights as a young revolutionary, has said he has become a devout Roman Catholic and now opposes abortion.

Ortega's socialist government of the 1980s had a contentious relationship with the Catholic church, but Ortega recently has established warm ties with leading church figures in Nicaragua.

Congressman Wilfredo Navarro, of the ruling Liberal Constitutionalist Party, said the exception to Nicaragua's ban had allowed for cases in which healthy women who did not want to have their babies had convinced doctors to say an abortion was needed for health reasons.

Aside from Cuba, which permits abortions in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, Latin America has some of the world's most restrictive anti-abortion laws.

El Salvador and Chile also ban all types of abortions.

Most of the other countries in this heavily Roman Catholic region allow abortion when a woman's life is in danger but deny it to pregnant victims of rape or incest, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights, a New York-based advocacy group that supports abortion rights.

In May, Colombia's constitutional court legalized abortion in cases where fetuses were severely malformed, the pregnancy was the result of rape or incest or the mother's life was in danger.

Some 85 percent of Nicaragua's 5 million people are Catholics.

Around the world, more than a dozen countries have made it easier to get abortions in the past decade, and women from Mexico to Ireland have mounted court challenges to get access to the procedure.

LoneRed
26th October 2006, 22:24
Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 26, 2006 04:54 pm
No they're not. The Sandinista Renovation Movement is democratic socialist.
I never said anything about them being revolutionaries or communists, i said that they are a sandinista party. Sandinista doesnt necessarily equal communist, or revolutionary, just look at Ortega

Nothing Human Is Alien
26th October 2006, 22:33
Okay, so why would you tell people to "look for them"?

OneBrickOneVoice
27th October 2006, 00:55
How sad a state the Sandinistas are in....

LoneRed
27th October 2006, 01:10
Because they are better than the official FSLN, and why not?

Information isnt a bad thing

Nothing Human Is Alien
27th October 2006, 01:18
It seemed like a promotion to me. Anyway, in what way are they "better" than the FSLN?

Cheung Mo
27th October 2006, 02:54
The only restriction I support on abortion rights is on women who oppose my right to smoke a joint instead of getting piss drunk like the other pathetic yahoos out there. If you don't respect my right to control your body, why the fuck do you deserve the right yourself?

BreadBros
27th October 2006, 03:15
Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 27, 2006 01:54 am
The only restriction I support on abortion rights is on women who oppose my right to smoke a joint instead of getting piss drunk like the other pathetic yahoos out there. If you don't respect my right to control your body, why the fuck do you deserve the right yourself?
Ummm...I'm having trouble understanding what exactly you're saying. You want to legalize pot, but you also want to control women's bodies....???

Cheung Mo
27th October 2006, 03:18
Originally posted by BreadBros+October 27, 2006 02:15 am--> (BreadBros @ October 27, 2006 02:15 am)
Cheung [email protected] 27, 2006 01:54 am
The only restriction I support on abortion rights is on women who oppose my right to smoke a joint instead of getting piss drunk like the other pathetic yahoos out there. If you don't respect my right to control your body, why the fuck do you deserve the right yourself?
Ummm...I'm having trouble understanding what exactly you're saying. You want to legalize pot, but you also want to control women's bodies....??? [/b]
No. I believe that women (and all people, but since we are talking about abortion...) who wish to control my body must also forfeit the right to control theirs.

LoneRed
27th October 2006, 03:21
well look at this issue, they are against the banning of abortion

Nothing Human Is Alien
27th October 2006, 03:23
Alot of Sandanistas actually are too; but the leadership is fucking garbage. Ortega is a "committeed Roman Catholic" now? He needs to be committed.

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
27th October 2006, 04:03
Originally posted by Cheung Mo+October 26, 2006 07:18 pm--> (Cheung Mo @ October 26, 2006 07:18 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 02:15 am

Cheung [email protected] 27, 2006 01:54 am
The only restriction I support on abortion rights is on women who oppose my right to smoke a joint instead of getting piss drunk like the other pathetic yahoos out there. If you don't respect my right to control your body, why the fuck do you deserve the right yourself?
Ummm...I'm having trouble understanding what exactly you're saying. You want to legalize pot, but you also want to control women's bodies....???
No. I believe that women (and all people, but since we are talking about abortion...) who wish to control my body must also forfeit the right to control theirs. [/b]
Why would you support that? You shouldn't support banning abortions in "any" circumstances. There is no point in restricting the freedom of others just because they are restricting yours. It benefits you in no way.

shadowed by the secret police
27th October 2006, 17:48
I don't know what the hell is wrong with Daniel Ortega. Several years ago I saw a private film footage where he goes to an evangelical meeting of fundamentalist Christians and prays with the preacher kneeling down and ranting and raving. :blush:

Nothing Human Is Alien
27th October 2006, 18:02
I know what's wrong with him... he's a petty bourgeoisie sell-out.

TC
27th October 2006, 18:17
well, they f'ing suck, Chavez and the Castros should pressure the Sandinstas to stop being such sell outs.

LoneRed
27th October 2006, 21:07
ya Ortega is a sell out to say the least, Hes completely turned the program of the class sandinistas on their head. HE should be "committed"

BreadBros
27th October 2006, 22:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 08:07 pm
ya Ortega is a sell out to say the least, Hes completely turned the program of the class sandinistas on their head. HE should be "committed"
LOL, you just stole that line from CDL! Dont think you can pass off his wit as yours! :-P

Jesus Christ!
28th October 2006, 05:18
The Sandinista party doesn't exist anymore in Nicaragua. You can't vote in a revolution. I also can't understand how we claim to be understanding people and then condem the vast majority of central/south americans fro being religious. I don't see how anyone can back any form of revolution in Latin America and be this strongly anti-religion.

BreadBros
29th October 2006, 12:08
Originally posted by Jesus Christ!@October 28, 2006 04:18 am
The Sandinista party doesn't exist anymore in Nicaragua. You can't vote in a revolution. I also can't understand how we claim to be understanding people and then condem the vast majority of central/south americans fro being religious. I don't see how anyone can back any form of revolution in Latin America and be this strongly anti-religion.
Religion and mysticism are opposed to materialism and Marxist revolution. As capitalist production becomes more entrenched in Latin America the foundation of religion will probably become less and less strong. As Marxists (or Anarchists) we should never support religious movements or ideas. We can still support revolution in Latin America because a revolution would be progressive for the working class in a variety of ways, even if the populace for the time being still kept on believing in religion.

Cheung Mo
20th July 2007, 19:17
Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 26, 2006 04:54 pm
No they're not. The Sandinista Renovation Movement is democratic socialist.
hahaha...And the FSLN is a member of the Socialist International, making them crony capitalists who claim to be social democrats once in a while.

bezdomni
20th July 2007, 20:06
Why did you revive a thread from last year?

Honggweilo
20th July 2007, 20:14
lol yah it isnt new anymore :lol: