Cuba and market 'reform'

[PRC-UTE]

I don't know that the article actually demonstrates what it says in the title...


http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2...0810.shtml?s=lh (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/10/23/170810.shtml?s=lh)

Cuba Mulls Economic Reforms Beyond Socialism
NewsMax.com Wires
Tuesday, Oct. 24, 2006

HAVANA -- Cuba has begun debating how to correct rampant theft and inefficiency in state-run services, from pouring beer to shining shoes, that could signal a step toward economic reform under acting President Raul Castro.

In a scathing three-part series on graft in shops and bars entitled The Big Old Swindle, the Communist Youth newspaper Juventud Rebelde said Sunday a team of university experts will investigate ways to improve services.

The articles uncovered bar employees stealing from the state by serving less beer than stipulated and taxis drivers overcharging passengers, but stopped short of recommending the privatization of such services.

"The current irregularities in the country's services, in the midst of the search for a better economic model, has meant Cuba still does not have a retail and services sector that satisfies people's expectations," the newspaper said.

The debate comes amid growing questions about the future of one of the world's last communist societies since its leader Fidel Castro underwent emergency surgery in late July and disappeared from public view.

"The important thing, to me, is that they are asking the questions. "Why doesn't it work?" a European diplomat posted to Havana said.

"My doubt is whether they are brave enough to start asking themselves questions without trying to confine the answers to Marxist philosophy," he said.

Cubans have long complained in private about poor state services, from deficient public transport to bare shop shelves. Many see privatization as the best way forward.

Since Raul Castro temporarily took over the government from his ailing brother July 31, foreign and local experts have speculated that the younger Castro, aged 75, is more pragmatic and could move Cuba toward a more open Chinese economic model.

Cuban officials rule out following the example of China, which opened its economy to capitalist enterprise while retaining political power under the Communist Party.

Cuba's economy, modeled on Soviet communism that ultimately failed, is overwhelmingly state-controlled. The state provides supplies and sets serving amounts and prices for everything from a cup of coffee and ham sandwich to watch repairs and shoe shining.

"The theory that came from the Soviet Union was skewered," economist Luis Marcelo Yera of the National Economic Research Institute told Juventud Rebelde. He advocated giving workers more power to decide the running of state enterprises.

Yera was one of a number of academics quoted in the paper who stated systemic problems, including over centralization, hampered economic development and could not be dealt with simply by more regulation and discipline.

Juventud Rebelde, like other media often used by the government to place topics up for debate, stopped short of calling for restoration of private property, though some Cuban intellectuals say it would be the best way, even if in the form of collective private property, to improve the retail sector.

Fidel Castro, who is said to be recovering from intestinal surgery, warned a year ago that corruption could undermine the society born of his 1959 revolution.

Earlier this year, Castro sent thousands of young social workers and communist militants, as well as retirees, into work places to root out corruption and waste.

They discovered, among other examples, that half the gasoline and diesel fuel pumped in the country was stolen. Cuba then proceeded to replace all service station employees.

Earlier this year the media carried a series of reports on irregularities in the state-run produce-distribution system, but stopped short of offering solutions.

Juventud Rebelde inferred that much more was needed, considering that criticism by academic experts were published on Sunday that were almost certainly approved at the highest levels of government.

"We live in a society with many distortions; that's why many things have to be guaranteed through cohesion and control, but not everything can be accomplished that way," Ernesto Molina, from Cuba's top school for international relations, told the paper.

"We need a scientific plan to organize society politically and economically so it works better," he said.

© Reuters 2006. All rights reserved.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Many see privatization as the best way forward.

Where? In Miami?

"We need a scientific plan to organize society politically and economically so it works better" means we need better planning, it's not a call for the restoration of capitalism.

Neither is Yera's call for more workers' control.

The only person talking about capitalism is the author of the article and "a European diplomat posted to Havana."

This is also nothing new. Debates are often carried out in the pages on Cuban publications on how to best move forward.

It's funny that Cuba is criticized for a lack of "freedom of press" by the bourgeoisie, then they talk about "scathing attacks" being launched from that same "unfree" press.

* * *

Seriously, corruption in Cuba is much lower than it has been in all other existing socialist states. Even enemies of the revolution admit this, as has been pointed out in earlier threads.

There is some level of corruption, and it does need to be rooted out; but it can only be wiped out completely with a furtherance of the revolution to other countries, to break Cuba out of isolation.

The Cuban people are struggling against corruption, where it exists, and debating through their institutions and press how to best do so. When's the last time a newspaper in the U.S. talked about how to best meet societies needs, or give more power to working people?

[VenceremosRed]

This goes back to formal democracy. No amount formal democracy will ever solve corruption. Only action from below.

Anyone spewing nonsense that "free" markets will help stop corruption are either insane, stupid or evil.

[RNK]

"Free" markets do the exact opposite. They inject corruption directly into the veins of the market, and the people.

[NZ_Commie]

Its one thing to argue that market 'reforms' (or butchery of state services) will increase economic efficiencies, completely another to claim that market reforms will reduce corruptuon. A system based on individual oppertunism and personal gain hardely instills ethical management practices.

Ridiculous.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

It's funny that Cuba is criticized for a lack of "freedom of press" by the bourgeoisie, then they talk about "scathing attacks" being launched from that same "unfree" press.
Could you provide a link where bourgeois press mentions "scathing attacks"?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Read the first article posted.

[YKTMX]

:lol: I hate being right all the time...

A few months ago I offered this wager



Who wants to make a wager with me that in 12 months time, Cuba will be a bourgeois republic with a market economy, close relations with the US and basically no change in personnel in its political leadership?


I'll add to this: the Communist Party and Raul, along with the radical "youth groups" in the country will be central to this. CDL will be on here complaining about Raul's "counterrevolution" and claiming him to be a CIA agent.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2006 04:32 pm
:lol: I hate being right all the time...

A few months ago I offered this wager



Who wants to make a wager with me that in 12 months time, Cuba will be a bourgeois republic with a market economy, close relations with the US and basically no change in personnel in its political leadership?


I'll add to this: the Communist Party and Raul, along with the radical "youth groups" in the country will be central to this. CDL will be on here complaining about Raul's "counterrevolution" and claiming him to be a CIA agent.
YKTMX - I don't think you actually read the article. There's basically nothing to substantiate what you or the author is saying.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Why would he want to actually read a thread he posts in? :lol:

I think he's actually a spambot with preprogramed Shachtmanite statements.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by PRC-UTE+October 26, 2006 04:52 pm--> (PRC-UTE @ October 26, 2006 04:52 pm)
[email protected] 26, 2006 04:32 pm
:lol: I hate being right all the time...

A few months ago I offered this wager



Who wants to make a wager with me that in 12 months time, Cuba will be a bourgeois republic with a market economy, close relations with the US and basically no change in personnel in its political leadership?


I'll add to this: the Communist Party and Raul, along with the radical "youth groups" in the country will be central to this. CDL will be on here complaining about Raul's "counterrevolution" and claiming him to be a CIA agent.
YKTMX - I don't think you actually read the article. There's basically nothing to substantiate what you or the author is saying. [/b]
Unfortunately, the history of these types of regimes (autocratic state capitalist) is fairly consistent in how they progress, comrade.

They either tend to adopt the Chinese model or they collapse (the Romanian model :lol: )

[Wanted Man]

He advocated giving workers more power to decide the running of state enterprises.
I agree.


Fidel Castro, who is said to be recovering from intestinal surgery, warned a year ago that corruption could undermine the society born of his 1959 revolution.
I agree.


Earlier this year, Castro sent thousands of young social workers and communist militants, as well as retirees, into work places to root out corruption and waste.
Looks like they aren't sitting still.


"We need a scientific plan to organize society politically and economically so it works better," he said.
I agree.


Originally posted by YKHSoW
:lol: I hate being right all the time...

A few months ago I offered this wager



Who wants to make a wager with me that in 12 months time, Cuba will be a bourgeois republic with a market economy, close relations with the US and basically no change in personnel in its political leadership?


I'll add to this: the Communist Party and Raul, along with the radical "youth groups" in the country will be central to this. CDL will be on here complaining about Raul's "counterrevolution" and claiming him to be a CIA agent.
Congratulations. Keep up the good work, and some day you may become as prophetic as Leon Trotsky and Tony Cliff. Well, almost, anyway. Nobody will ever outclass the Divine Ones. :wub:

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yep, that's what we've been hearing since 1991. But yet, there stands socialist Cuba. YKHSOW actually likes it though.. it gives him a place to direct his counterevolutionary pro-capitalist cheerleading. If Cuba wasn't around, he'd only have Stalin to blame for every mistake every made in history.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 26, 2006 05:05 pm
Yep, that's what we've been hearing since 1991. But yet, there stands socialist Cuba. YKHSOW actually likes it though.. it gives him a place to direct his counterevolutionary pro-capitalist cheerleading. If Cuba wasn't around, he'd only have Stalin to blame for every mistake every made in history.
Haha, and no doubt once the last "socialist paradise" on Earth collapses under the weight of its own venal hypocrisy, you'll be there, declaring, like the rest of them, that "socialism was dead all along", and retiring to a crappy life as a sneering social demcrat, apologising for your "ex-Communism". There you'll be, wistfully thumbing your Castro scrapbook, praying for the Stasi to reconstitute itself and wondering where it all went wrong

:lol:

[Wanted Man]

Well, if anything ever goes wrong, I'm sure we can count on the International Socialist Tendency to set up shop in Cuba and bicker, split, and fight their way to the top. I don't know from experience about the rest of the world(although from what I've heard, it isn't much different), but over here, your little puppet party is doing a great job at doing more damage to communist organisations and the anti-war movement than the capitalists ever could.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2006 05:16 pm
Well, if anything ever goes wrong, I'm sure we can count on the International Socialist Tendency to set up shop in Cuba and bicker, split, and fight their way to the top. I don't know from experience about the rest of the world(although from what I've heard, it isn't much different), but over here, your little puppet party is doing a great job at doing more damage to communist organisations and the anti-war movement than the capitalists ever could.
And you've formed that opinion of your own accord due to your own experiences, rather than what some guy told you down the pub (you can go into a pub, right)?

To be honest, I don't really mind naive people like you exalting the Cuban Revolution, M.D. It shows a degree of commitment to the idea.

It's more the belligerent tankies like CDL that annoy me.

[Wanted Man]

The former. So I suggest you go into "lalalala, I can't heeaarrrr youuuu" mode now. And I like to think that I am more of a "tankie" than most people here, and sometimes belligerent as well. But then again, I doubt that you would understand such nuances. And that will probably turn worse as you "grow up" and become more and more of a neo-con. Until then: Neither Havana nor Washington, but Tehran! :)

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2006 07:40 pm
The former.
OK then, I'll call that bluff, what particular Machiavellian machinations have the IS group in Holland being getting up to that's so hampered the movement?

I'd really like to know.

Because usually when the sectarians complain about this sort of stuff it's like "a lot of them showed up to vote at a meeting, and then they all voted the same way!"

:lol:

[Wanted Man]

Machiavellian machinations that hamper? Hmm, not quite, I never credited you with being that sophisticated or destructive. ;) That would be quite unjust. But attempted murder is punishable as well. :)

Anyway, if you insist, there are some specific examples.
Last month we were going to organise a meeting about 9/11. We told the IS about 2-3 months in advance, when we met them on a students' fair, and they seemed interested. One talked about solidarity and shit. Guess how they show their solidarity? They suddenly decide to hold their own meeting, three days in advance! Even if they had already planned to do this before us(but failed to tell us), the comradely thing to do would have been to give a ring and inform us, and see where we can cooperate. But instead they just decided to work around us and weaken our own activities, as if we're in some sort of competition.
Oh, and let's not forget your lovely participation in the anti-war movement. Tell me, is it common IST policy to deliberately create splits in anti-war committees for the purpose of founding your own one which organises demonstrations? Because this seems to happen in a lot of countries. And even if you fail at that, you can always print your own separate posters for demonstrations with your website on it, making it look like it's YOUR demo, and then show up with a few people with more signs and banners(often unrelated to the subject at hand) than they can carry, and give them to other people so you look bigger.

These are just two examples, the former which I witnessed very personally, as the I was the one that the IS guy was preaching "unity" to. That was truly disgusting.

Like I said, the latter seems to be common practice in all countries with IST branches. For people who love to wave the Palestinian flag around, you lot sure seem to be interested in making the movement against Israel's wars ineffective.

And as for your latter comment, well, if they all vote for something that is detrimental, then yes, there is a problem. And you, of all people, should really not be using the word "sectarian".

[YKTMX]

Tell me, is it common IST policy to deliberately create splits in anti-war committees for the purpose of founding your own one which organises demonstrations?

I don't know. The "policy" here in Britain has been to build as broad an anti-war movement as possible, and this has been a complete success. Perhaps you might regard your own failings when considering the ineptitude of the Dutch anti-war movement.


even if you fail at that, you can always print your own separate posters for demonstrations with your website on it, making it look like it's YOUR demo

Don't be so ridiculous. Of course you would have your own posters because you're an autonomous political party. Unless they were "forcing" people to take the IST posters, I can't possibly see any objection. This is the problem with the Tankies, they're so self-conscious and neurotic about "unity", that they easily slip into kneejerk sectarianism. What is the problem with all the groups having different posters, and the protestors can have a free choice of carrying the one that speaks to them - or not carrying it all! I can't see anyway.


For people who love to wave the Palestinian flag around, you lot sure seem to be interested in making the movement against Israel's wars ineffective.


Having your own posters at an anti-war Demo boosts the Israeli war effort?

I think you better have a cold shower and a lie down.


And as for your latter comment, well, if they all vote for something that is detrimental, then yes, there is a problem.

Ah, so you just don't like people voting for things you and your friends don't agree with? Fine, neither would I.

But here's the thing you people have to learn, this isn't Hungary '56, you can't just get rid of people who disagree with you. You have to discuss things and then vote, and if you lose, that's tough, because that's democracy.

If you can't raise enough support for your ideas then that is quite simply your problem.

[chebol]

Matthijs wrote:


Tell me, is it common IST policy to deliberately create splits in anti-war committees for the purpose of founding your own one which organises demonstrations? Because this seems to happen in a lot of countries.

Why, yes, I do believe it is. They appear to be unable to do anything other than what Head Office says, so if the UK has RESPECT, then the IST around the world has to go and try and set up their own grand anti-war coalitions, even at the expense of already existing and successful anti-war coalitions.

The ISO in Australia are trying to do just that, in attempting - and generally failing - to set up "Unity For Peace" coalitions to further divide an already divided movement (in many places, the more conservative forces split off when the war began); whilst also banning all literature that is not produced by the peace groups, etc, that they control from being distributed at these meetings.

Ridiculously, this even includes their own paper!

Example #1 (http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/688/35746)
Example #2 (http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/687/35690)

Meanwhile, they are pissing off independent activists, and burning quite a few bridges, whcih is unfortunate. What is less unfortunate is that they are not the major force in the peace movement here, so it's not so great a loss.

Do I even need to comment on YKTHHNI's blunted ramblings on Cuba? I shouldn't think so - even blind Freddy can tell what's going on in Cuba is a revitalisation and reaffirmation of socialist principles. Unfortunately, the Pomintern just doesn't get it. That's their loss - not Cuba's.

YKTHHNI wrote:

Haha, and no doubt once the last "socialist paradise" on Earth collapses under the weight of its own venal hypocrisy, you'll be there, declaring, like the rest of them, that "socialism was dead all along", and retiring to a crappy life as a sneering social demcrat, apologising for your "ex-Communism". There you'll be, wistfully thumbing your Castro scrapbook, praying for the Stasi to reconstitute itself and wondering where it all went wrong

Whereas you can fulfil this role the whole time, only the scrapbook has the name "Cliff" written on it. Dilletante. See, I can sneer even without decoming a social democrat. In fact, some of the best communist revolutionaries were very good at sneering at fools. Marx, Engels and Lenin spring to mind, amongst others. And I make no apologies for sneering at the IST's idiotic line on Cuba.


But here's the thing you people have to learn, this isn't Hungary '56, you can't just get rid of people who disagree with you. You have to discuss things and then vote, and if you lose, that's tough, because that's democracy.

If you can't raise enough support for your ideas then that is quite simply your problem.

While it clearly is democracy that whoever gets the most votes wins, i have a question - why is it that noone wants to sit next to you on the bus? It's because sometimes, in the interest of unity, it is necessary to make tactical calls that aren't about steamrolling the opposition.

If done when not too much is at stake, this can actually bring your allies forward politically, and won't make them think that you're a bunch of arrogant, sectarian, bullies (a la '56, no less). That's how you create a movement, rather than a front-group, which has driven away all the allies.

True, sometimes it is necessary to win a vote, but you also have to be careful to separate the content of democracy from the form. ANd determine the question on the basis of political necessity.

The same goes for the posters - if the SWP et al feel that it's more useful to have their own posters for the rallies - that's nice for them, maybe it's the right tactical thing to do. The question lies in whether they are also building the coalitions and peace movement; or just the SWP? The poster issue is purely tactical (which doesn't mean that it's not wrong, even if it might be).


This is the problem with the Tankies, they're so self-conscious and neurotic about "unity", that they easily slip into kneejerk sectarianism.

And as I and others have outlined above, the IST seems to be neurotic and self-conscious about using the word "unity" whilst actively splitting the anti-war movement for their own ends. Real helpful, that.

I'm getting a little bored with trying to tidy up after cliffite sectarian shenanigans, as a matter of fact. It would be nice if they were actually interested in collaboration with the rest of us - and we're still open to it, despite the differences. Still waiting...

CompañeroDeLibertad wrote:

Yep, that's what we've been hearing since 1991. But yet, there stands socialist Cuba. YKHSOW actually likes it though.. it gives him a place to direct his counterevolutionary pro-capitalist cheerleading. If Cuba wasn't around, he'd only have Stalin to blame for every mistake every made in history.

Quoted for truth. Except that YKTHHNI isn't pro-capitalist - like the rest of the IST he just doesn't even know what capitalism is. Hence the "state capitalism" bullshit.