money for slavery?

[Pirate Utopian]

should black people today get paid for slavery?
i'll give my opion later after more people posted

[KC]

The only way black people would ever get a chance at being equal with white people is if their economic situation was improved. Reparations would help this. But the thing is that racism against black people isn't going to stop until capitalism is destroyed. So then it doesn't really matter, since there's always going to be poor people.

[TC]

I think the idea of reparations for slavery sounds good but it poses a lot of practical problems. How do you identify victims entitled to reparations and perpetrators to be responsible for paying damages when all of both are dead and their legal and financially relevant decendents would be almost impossible to verify.

If you want to address racism by redistributing money it makes more sense to do it on the basis of current problems rather than past injuries to long dead individuals.

[Martin Blank]

Reparations does not mean only monetary payments. Reparations means taking concrete steps to reverse institutionalized discrimination and oppression. For every aspect of institutionalized discrimination and oppression, there must be a reparatory response -- in housing, health care, education, jobs, etc. Moreover, many people who call for reparations see the monetary option as little more than a cheap bribe to get them to shut up.

In the U.S., I support comprehensive reparations for the descendants of all those held as slaves or indentured servants, and those who were the victims of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

Miles

[TC]

But how do you identify slave decendents? Not to be awful but many if not most African Americans are decendents of both slaves and slave masters. What if someone has mixed black slave ancestory and black non-slave ancestory, and therefore only half as many great great* grandparents who were slaves as someone with full decedent from slaves on both sides, should they get half the money? Some slaves have more present day decendents than others should a fixed number be given to each of them thus giving decedents of a slave with many great great grand children less money than decedents of a slave with few great great grand children? There are a lot of practical problems with trying to give monetary compensation to people so many generations apart from when the events they're being compensated for took place. It would be so much easier, more sensible and fairer to try to redistribute money on a regional/area basis by compensating people and local governments in black ghetto areas.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Big [email protected] 23, 2006 07:45 am
should black people today get paid for slavery?
i'll give my opion later after more people posted
Fuck no.
Maybe I should get paid because one of my unidentifiable ancestors lived in Northern Europe and his land was taken by the Vikings. :rolleyes:

[Hiero]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+October 24, 2006 12:32 am--> (MonicaTTmed @ October 24, 2006 12:32 am)
Big [email protected] 23, 2006 07:45 am
should black people today get paid for slavery?
i'll give my opion later after more people posted
Fuck no.
Maybe I should get paid because one of my unidentifiable ancestors lived in Northern Europe and his land was taken by the Vikings. :rolleyes: [/b]
Do you still face inequalities from this period of time? Fuck no. So don't compare bullshit from centuries ago with issues people face today. Black people still face inequalities. Their position in society is determine from their ill history. The same is for ex-colonial nations and indigenous nations, who should also receive reparations. The amount of wealth stolen from these people should be paid back. Why should villains keep the wealth they stole?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Q: Is this a purely moot matter, as many Americans view it, or do you think that the US government can potentially be swayed to taking this action?

[YSR]

A: Mainly moot. I think there is almost no possible way the U.S. government would ever put this into action. However, it is an excellent way of discussing the problem of race in the United States and providing examples of how what we can do to end racism.

It's particularly a useful mechanism for engaging in dialogue about racism with black people, who are currently severely underrepresented in our movement (at least in the U.S. anarchist scene. I would presume it to be similar with the Marxists.)


Originally posted by Monica
Fuck no.
Maybe I should get paid because one of my unidentifiable ancestors lived in Northern Europe and his land was taken by the Vikings.

It's this kind of racism that pervades white comrades and is incredibly harmful to our thinking. Besides the points Hiero raised, there is a larger one: race as a construct.

Race is a bigger dividing line than ethnicity has ever been in the U.S. Sure, my people (Irish) had a lot of trouble coming over here. We got shitty jobs, were discriminited against, and generally got a tough rap. But, looking at it today, the incomes of Irish-Americans and Anglo-Americans are comparable (if probably not almost identical!). However, the income disparity between blacks and whites is tremendous.

Institutional racism is the problem here. Reparations are a solution to institutional racism. Race can only be demystified and disproven in the public sphere when we are on an economic situation where race doesn't play a factor. That's why "the revolution" will never occur in the United States at the current rate: because white comrades just don't get it.

Shit, gotta run to class. Maybe I'll post more about this later.

[KC]

It's this kind of racism that pervades white comrades and is incredibly harmful to our thinking.

This isn't racism at all you knucklehead. It's a misunderstanding of the position in which black people are in society and the historical events leading up to that position. People on this site throw around way too many completely idiotic accusations. Knock it off.



Institutional racism is the problem here. Reparations are a solution to institutional racism. Race can only be demystified and disproven in the public sphere when we are on an economic situation where race doesn't play a factor. That's why "the revolution" will never occur in the United States at the current rate: because white comrades just don't get it.

Actually, capitalism is the problem here. The only solution to institutional racism is revolution. This is because races will never be in the same economic situation, and also because of bourgeois cultural hegemony. Saying that "the revolution" won't occur in the United States is like saying that we haven't been able to achieve communism because we're not classless. It's backwards.

[YSR]

This isn't racism at all you knucklehead. It's a misunderstanding of the position in which black people are in society and the historical events leading up to that position. People on this site throw around way too many completely idiotic accusations. Knock it off.

Okay. I'll agree. It's the support of racism, or rather the lack of opposition to racism.

By the way, I'm not a knucklehead. Stop using ad hominem attacks when you disgree with someone. It doesn't build up your argument at all.


Actually, capitalism is the problem here.

Clearly, this is false. Capitalism has been abolished in numerous places around the world at different times. Cuba, the Soviet Union, Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War, N. Korea, Nazi Germany, tribal societies, etc.

The problem in the United States is racism. Capitalism cannot ever be overcome until radical education around the issue of race has been acheived. Unlike these other places, we have two big problems running against us: the cultural "bootstrap" myth, upon which much of our popular discourse is based, and an unequal heterogeneus population.


The only solution to institutional racism is revolution.

The only complete solution? Of course! But said "revolution" will never occur until a greater level of racial unity is achieved. Class consciousness is a the key to revolution. However, it is impossible to even contemplate class consciousness until white and black (and Latino) workers drop their racist views of each other.


Saying that "the revolution" won't occur in the United States is like saying that we haven't been able to achieve communism because we're not classless.

Not at all. It's a matter of common sense. There is no black/white unity, therefore there will be no revolution. You can quote me on that.

We can't acheive anarchism on wide scale until we unite the working class. I think even you Marxists believe that. Well, guess what? The biggest obstacle to working class unity is division based on race.

[Janus]

I don't think that some monetary reparations are going to solve much rather we should be focusing on more practical issues such as dealing with the political and economic conditions which continue to harm and keep black communities in such bad shape.

[KC]

Okay. I'll agree. It's the support of racism, or rather the lack of opposition to racism.

No it's not. Not at all. It's an economic issue and is much more profound than racism.


By the way, I'm not a knucklehead. Stop using ad hominem attacks when you disgree with someone. It doesn't build up your argument at all.

I'm just being friendly and pointing it out. I figure someone should tell you before you make too big a fool of yourself.



Clearly, this is false. Capitalism has been abolished in numerous places around the world at different times. Cuba, the Soviet Union, Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War, N. Korea, Nazi Germany, tribal societies, etc.


Okay, if you want to be a smartass about it, then class society is the problem. The reason that I said that capitalism is the problem is that we're living in a capitalist society which is the cause of modern racism.


The problem in the United States is racism. Capitalism cannot ever be overcome until radical education around the issue of race has been acheived.

Yeah, because, you know, we'll totally solve racism by "educating people"! :rolleyes:


Unlike these other places, we have two big problems running against us: the cultural "bootstrap" myth, upon which much of our popular discourse is based, and an unequal heterogeneus population.

And neither of these are caused by capitalism, right knucklehead?

[YSR]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 24, 2006 04:40 am

Okay. I'll agree. It's the support of racism, or rather the lack of opposition to racism.

No it's not. Not at all. It's an economic issue and is much more profound than racism.
But economic disparity in the U.S. manifests itself by racial breakdowns, which was the whole point of Monica's response, that we shouldn't consider reperations because they are race-based. (Not that this argument is neccessarily relevent to the point at large. It seems to be just a matter of semantics.)


I'm just being friendly and pointing it out. I figure someone should tell you before you make too big a fool of yourself.

I trust the people who read the discussions to draw their own conclusions about our respective positions. I'm a big fan of the facts speaking for themselves.


Yeah, because, you know, we'll totally solve racism by "educating people"! :rolleyes:

It's kind of a tight spot to be in, because you are never going to have a revolution until you unify the working class. You seem to hold that racism cannot even be addressed until after the revolution (or so it appears. I could be misreading you.)

And yet, without education and information around the subject of race, the working class in the United States won't be unified. Accepting that premise, it's easy to see why I support antiracism.



Unlike these other places, we have two big problems running against us: the cultural "bootstrap" myth, upon which much of our popular discourse is based, and an unequal heterogeneus population.

And neither of these are caused by capitalism, right knucklehead?

Weber's Protestant Ethic can definitely be linked to capitalism, but I'm a little wary of linking racism to capitalism. Racism has existed in non-capitalist societies. True, its manifestation was more of xenophobia than a race-based model. Race as a construct doesn't appear until the development of modern capitalism in the West.

But there is a strong argument to be made that racism develops from heirarchy, not capitalism. Capitalism is simply one flavor of authoritarian society, and not the only one to have race as a concern. I would point to various tribal peoples around the world who hold ethnic, if not racial, notions of identity and repression.

All this aside, your response has rather missed the main point of my critique on anti-reperations leftists: you can't unify the working class until you at least reduce the misunderstanding, mistrust, and animosity between white/black/Latino workers. For that reason, support of reperations is certinaly "progressive" in theory, if not applicable or acheivable in practice. As I pointed out earlier, it's certainly a good way to involve more black workers in the larger revolutionary left, a movement I've found to be overwhelmingly white (in my cursory analysis, which could certainly be mistaken).

[Pirate Utopian]

personally i believe that they should get repaid cause if it wasnt for slavery and segragation blacks today would have more money.
i do agree with TragicClown that fidning out who really is a great-great-great-grandson of a slave will be hard.
and comparing slavery with viking robberies is crazy, slavery was 100's of years of extensive exploitation, a group of vikings stealing some shit is not 100s of years filled with pure opression.

[RevMARKSman]

But economic disparity in the U.S. manifests itself by racial breakdowns, which was the whole point of Monica's response, that we shouldn't consider reperations because they are race-based. (Not that this argument is neccessarily relevent to the point at large. It seems to be just a matter of semantics.)So you think the best way to fight racism is with racism? It's like choosing "black" people for jobs just to meet quotas, when they do not even have as many qualifications as their competitors.

I prefer fighting racism with revolution, and until then, with solidarity.

Take your pick.

[KC]

But economic disparity in the U.S. manifests itself by racial breakdowns, which was the whole point of Monica's response, that we shouldn't consider reperations because they are race-based. (Not that this argument is neccessarily relevent to the point at large. It seems to be just a matter of semantics.)

Why the hell do you think racism exists? Do you think it's something "created" by society out of thin air? No. It has to do with different income levels of people of different races.


It's kind of a tight spot to be in, because you are never going to have a revolution until you unify the working class. You seem to hold that racism cannot even be addressed until after the revolution (or so it appears. I could be misreading you.)

You are. I have asserted that racism cannot be destroyed until after the revolution, since racism is rooted in class society (and, presently, in capitalism).


Weber's Protestant Ethic can definitely be linked to capitalism, but I'm a little wary of linking racism to capitalism. Racism has existed in non-capitalist societies. True, its manifestation was more of xenophobia than a race-based model. Race as a construct doesn't appear until the development of modern capitalism in the West.

But there is a strong argument to be made that racism develops from heirarchy, not capitalism. Capitalism is simply one flavor of authoritarian society, and not the only one to have race as a concern. I would point to various tribal peoples around the world who hold ethnic, if not racial, notions of identity and repression.

Let me clarify, as I did above. Racism is due to class society. However, it's most recent manifestation is due to capitalism, since that is the form of class society in which we live and since it has so profoundly affected the subject of racism by linking it to economic status.


So you think the best way to fight racism is with racism? It's like choosing "black" people for jobs just to meet quotas, when they do not even have as many qualifications as their competitors.

That's a completely separate issue than reparations.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2006 07:49 am
But how do you identify slave decendents? Not to be awful but many if not most African Americans are decendents of both slaves and slave masters. What if someone has mixed black slave ancestory and black non-slave ancestory, and therefore only half as many great great* grandparents who were slaves as someone with full decedent from slaves on both sides, should they get half the money? Some slaves have more present day decendents than others should a fixed number be given to each of them thus giving decedents of a slave with many great great grand children less money than decedents of a slave with few great great grand children? There are a lot of practical problems with trying to give monetary compensation to people so many generations apart from when the events they're being compensated for took place. It would be so much easier, more sensible and fairer to try to redistribute money on a regional/area basis by compensating people and local governments in black ghetto areas.
TC, did you even read what I wrote? I said that there were forms of reparation other than monetary payouts.

Miles

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2006 05:54 am
So you think the best way to fight racism is with racism? It's like choosing "black" people for jobs just to meet quotas, when they do not even have as many qualifications as their competitors.

I prefer fighting racism with revolution, and until then, with solidarity.

Take your pick.
There is no such thing as "reverse racism". African Americans do not have the social or economic power to create a system of organized discrimination and oppression -- i.e., racism. True, there is mistrust and prejudice, but that is to be expected from a sector of society that has yet to be treated as equals.

As for your thoughts on affirmative action, I think that would be best saved for a separate thread.

Miles

[*PRC*Kensei]

yes. but not paid like "here is the mony"

look, we took from them, they fell even deeper,

we conqored, slaved, exployded, killed, disrupted, burned. and we brought SOME improvement.

i feel the west is OBLIGATED to activilly HELP them.

even if we dint took anything from them, then we, as part off mankind SHOULD CARE FOR OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

it's the fucking duty of the west to raise all to their level. however claiming that is hard to imposible since they will never respect this duty.

but i warn, behold,
behold of the africans that one day,
will take what you would not give.

evry day thousands of afrikans trow themselves on the spanisch border.

one day they will come back with millions...and armed. and i'll be the last to blaim them for that.

[tecumseh]

Interesting debate. African Americans have recieved some reparations and even less to Native Americans. In terms of Native Americans, they have the highest depression and alcohlism rates in the United States. I think they have had a really tough creating their identiy which was completey lost with the White settlers in America. Their contributions are with casinos nowadays, they own Foxwoods, MoheganSun, these are some of the largest casinos on the East coast. Native Americans currently have a big problem integrating into society, and it is really sad. I definetely think they are owed substantial reparations. White settlers came over and took over everything, and made enormous efforts to eliminate the Native American population with doing such horrible things like infecting their blankets with small pox. It is just as horrible how African slaves were brought on the ships, taken from their homes, forced to stand up in chains, no food, and stricken by diseases. The dead were thrown into the sea. Thousands of people died on the trip from Africa to America, and those who survived were brought into a life of complete subservience, abuse, and racism (which still goes on today). This debate can be extended to the Japanese being brought over to work and put in camps. Also to exploited Mexican labor all over the country.
Does it ever end? Ironic how apparently the United States is a country built upon "freedom for all."
Something to ponder about....

[tecumseh]

Digressing a bit but here are some interesting facts on minorities in the US:

-Adults Caucasians who have either depression or an anxiety disorder are more likely to receive treatment than adult African Americans with the same disorders even though the disorders occur in both groups at about the same rate, taking into account socioeconomic factors (SGRMH, 1999).

-The rate of illicit drug use is 10.6 percent among Native Americans, 7.7 percent among African Americans, 6.8 percent among Hispanics (all races), 6.6 percent among Caucasians, and 3.2 percent among Asian Americans (SAMHSA, 1999)

-About twice as many African Americans went without health insurance in 1998 and 1999 than did Caucasians (USCB, 1999).

-More than half of all African-Americans and Native Americans are anticipated to use public insurance to pay for inpatient mental health treatment, compared to 34 percent of Caucasians (SAMHSA, 1998).

-Misdiagnosis and inadequate treatment often occurs in minority communities. Factors that can contribute include a general mistrust of medical health professionals, cultural barriers, co-occurring disorders, socioeconomic factors, and primary reliance on family and the religious community during times of distress (NMHA, 2000).

[Okocim]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+October 23, 2006 02:32 pm--> (MonicaTTmed @ October 23, 2006 02:32 pm)
Big [email protected] 23, 2006 07:45 am
should black people today get paid for slavery?
i'll give my opion later after more people posted
Fuck no.
Maybe I should get paid because one of my unidentifiable ancestors lived in Northern Europe and his land was taken by the Vikings. :rolleyes: [/b]
haha, I'll await my cheques from the Russian and German governments for the centuries of oppression of "my people" too. :rolleyes:



no no no no, this is almost as stupid as that "white tax" idea that was raised here a while ago.

[YSR]

haha, I'll await my cheques from the Russian and German governments for the centuries of oppression of "my people" too.

That's not what the debate is about. Racism is real in the United States. It's not a question of ethnicity, but race.

White comrades, get over yourselves. That's why the revolutionary left has so little success here in the States. Not because we're more affluent than the rest of the world, but because we're more divided on racial/economic lines.

KC: I'll agree, racism cannot be destroyed until after a proletarian revolution and the end of class society.

But you still haven't responded to my main point, that being that revolution cannot occur until we have more racial equality in this country. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? If you agree, then how do you plan to accomplish it?

Support for reparations is progressive. Not supporting reparations is tacit support of the current racist system. I don't see how there's any other way to say this.

[Raisa]

I support reparations on all scales like miles says.

There is no revolution happeing without black americans at the fore front.
Its their country, their ancestors made this peice of shit into a country. They experiance the most institutional form of opression inside the american structure.
So things need to happen from the bottom up or nothing is really happening.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by Okocim+October 24, 2006 10:50 pm--> (Okocim @ October 24, 2006 10:50 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2006 02:32 pm

Big [email protected] 23, 2006 07:45 am
should black people today get paid for slavery?
i'll give my opion later after more people posted
Fuck no.
Maybe I should get paid because one of my unidentifiable ancestors lived in Northern Europe and his land was taken by the Vikings. :rolleyes:
haha, I'll await my cheques from the Russian and German governments for the centuries of oppression of "my people" too. :rolleyes:



no no no no, this is almost as stupid as that "white tax" idea that was raised here a while ago. [/b]
it's not pure about what we did to them, it's about what we did to them in relation to their current situation:

they live a live not worthy for a human, they are the BOTTOM of civilisation,

and even IF (which is not) we would not be the cause of that it's still our duty to create equality.

re-devide property ffs,
re-devide production tools,
so that menkind can make a fair, equal start & launch off into a better future.
Viva the world revolution ! :ph34r: