Anticommies

[MrDoom]

So what do you personally have to lose from communism/anarchism, anyways? It would seem to me that almost everyone is only poised to gain from socialist arrangements.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 04:41 PM
So what do you personally have to lose from communism/anarchism, anyways? It would seem to me that almost everyone is only poised to gain from socialist arrangements.
My life and family after the civil war inevitably fought by the different strains of communists, which leads to a Stalinist-dictatorship.

Assuming we don't end up in the gulags or eliminated in the purges, we stand to lose indoor plumbing and 3 square meals a day once the inherent inefficiencies kick in.

What do you stand to lose by realizing that your utopian Candy Land in all likelihood would not work and probably will not exist anyway?

[colonelguppy]

well alot of the infrastructure and economy which i gain greatly from would be destroyed by the violent revolution, and then my working skills that i've learned in college and spent lots of money on would become valueless. that and a large part of my sense of individuality.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 07:54 PM
well alot of the infrastructure and economy which i gain greatly from would be destroyed by the violent revolution, and then my working skills that i've learned in college and spent lots of money on would become valueless. that and a large part of my sense of individuality.
Yes, because communists don't value education.

That is why Cuba has a higher literacy rate than the US and China has a higher percentage of students graduating from University.

[Stellix]

Our life, liberty and property. I guess my stock options would get stolen too.

The famine won't be fun either.

[MrDoom]

Sounds like green slips of paper and abstract numbers in a bank is the major theme here.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 07:54 PM
then my working skills that i've learned in college and spent lots of money on would become valueless....
So you assume there are no jobs in a Communist society?

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by SovietPants+Oct 16 2006, 03:40 PM--> (SovietPants @ Oct 16 2006, 03:40 PM)
[email protected] 16 2006, 07:54 PM
well alot of the infrastructure and economy which i gain greatly from would be destroyed by the violent revolution, and then my working skills that i've learned in college and spent lots of money on would become valueless. that and a large part of my sense of individuality.
Yes, because communists don't value education.

That is why Cuba has a higher literacy rate than the US and China has a higher percentage of students graduating from University. [/b]
you missed my point. they don't reward people for having better skills.

and actually no we are ranked above cuba in literacy rates, and i've never heard that about china.


So assume there are no jobs in a Communist society?

what?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Scarlet Hammer+Oct 16 2006, 09:22 PM--> (Scarlet Hammer @ Oct 16 2006, 09:22 PM)
[email protected] 16 2006, 07:54 PM
then my working skills that i've learned in college and spent lots of money on would become valueless....
So assume there are no jobs in a Communist society? [/b]
Well yes, we will work but no one will employ us, as that would be exactly the same as the current system, just painted red.

[Publius]

So what do you personally have to lose from communism/anarchism, anyways?

I don't know, roughly the same amount as I would lose to any non-real entity.


It would seem to me that almost everyone is only poised to gain from socialist arrangements.

Yes and 'it would seem' like everyone would gain by being nice to each other and not being a dick.

In fact, everyone would gain, but, wait for it, people are still dicks even though rationally, it's indefensible.

Not an exact analogy, but you get the idea. Just because you have a fantastic theory doesn't mean it will amount to shit. I mean, look at all the planned economies and their technocratic plans: brilliant stuff, literally. Except they didn't work.

My thinking is this: if human ends can be directed in the way communists suppose, that is, perfectly, democratically, a planned economy makes more sense anyway, because if the ends and means could be reasonably ascertained by any group of people, they could more easily be implemented by a smaller group of experts than by the body politick. This is, of course, absolutely true in theory. But in practice...well, you tell me.

Tell me, in theory, not in practice, why command economies can't work at least as well as purely democratic economies.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+Oct 16 2006, 09:48 PM--> (Jazzratt @ Oct 16 2006, 09:48 PM)
Originally posted by Scarlet [email protected] 16 2006, 09:22 PM

[email protected] 16 2006, 07:54 PM
then my working skills that i've learned in college and spent lots of money on would become valueless....
So assume there are no jobs in a Communist society?
Well yes, we will work but no one will employ us, as that would be exactly the same as the current system, just painted red. [/b]
No, it WON'T be the same as the current system. Change the system, and you change the results.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by ZX3+Oct 16 2006, 09:57 PM--> (ZX3 @ Oct 16 2006, 09:57 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Scarlet [email protected] 16 2006, 09:22 PM

[email protected] 16 2006, 07:54 PM
then my working skills that i've learned in college and spent lots of money on would become valueless....
So assume there are no jobs in a Communist society?
Well yes, we will work but no one will employ us, as that would be exactly the same as the current system, just painted red.
No, it WON'T be the same as the current system. Change the system, and you change the results. [/b]
:blink: What the cocking fuck are you talkign about?

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I don't know, roughly the same amount as I would lose to any non-real entity.
In other words, you would have nothing to lose from a Communist revolution.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+Oct 16 2006, 09:58 PM--> (Jazzratt @ Oct 16 2006, 09:58 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Scarlet [email protected] 16 2006, 09:22 PM

[email protected] 16 2006, 07:54 PM
then my working skills that i've learned in college and spent lots of money on would become valueless....
So assume there are no jobs in a Communist society?
Well yes, we will work but no one will employ us, as that would be exactly the same as the current system, just painted red.
No, it WON'T be the same as the current system. Change the system, and you change the results.
:blink: What the cocking fuck are you talkign about? [/b]
I am talking about the delusion you, and so many socialists, are suffering from.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+Oct 16 2006, 09:48 PM--> (Jazzratt @ Oct 16 2006, 09:48 PM)
Originally posted by Scarlet [email protected] 16 2006, 09:22 PM

[email protected] 16 2006, 07:54 PM
then my working skills that i've learned in college and spent lots of money on would become valueless....
So assume there are no jobs in a Communist society?
Well yes, we will work but no one will employ us, as that would be exactly the same as the current system, just painted red. [/b]
I know, I forgot to add "you," to my post, I meant to say "so you assume."

[colonelguppy]

no i realize there are jobs in communists socieities but they all have the same economic reward, thus making any skills that differentiate between jobs valueless.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 10:57 PM
they all have the same economic reward, thus making any skills that differentiate between jobs valueless.
Who cares about bits of paper? Are you honestly that shallow and pathetic?

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by Scarlet Hammer+Oct 16 2006, 06:01 PM--> (Scarlet Hammer @ Oct 16 2006, 06:01 PM)
[email protected] 16 2006, 10:57 PM
they all have the same economic reward, thus making any skills that differentiate between jobs valueless.
Who cares about bits of paper? Are you honestly that shallow and pathetic? [/b]
how else do you measure value if not with material things?

[bezdomni]

you missed my point. they don't reward people for having better skills.
You're right. The LTV doesn't exist.


and actually no we are ranked above cuba in literacy rates, and i've never heard that about china.

Youth Literacy Rate
Cuba: 100%

[Sources: (1) World Development Indicators,
(World Bank, 1998, 1999) & (2) U.N. Statistics
Division, Millennium Indicators.]

Adult Literacy Rate
Cuba: 100%

[Sources: (1) UNICEF & (2) UNESCO Institute for Statistics.]



Education in China (http://www.asia-planet.net/china/education.htm)

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by colonelguppy+Oct 16 2006, 11:05 PM--> (colonelguppy @ Oct 16 2006, 11:05 PM)
Originally posted by Scarlet [email protected] 16 2006, 06:01 PM

[email protected] 16 2006, 10:57 PM
they all have the same economic reward, thus making any skills that differentiate between jobs valueless.
Who cares about bits of paper? Are you honestly that shallow and pathetic?
how else do you measure value if not with material things? [/b]
Well, I don't know, with trivial things such as happiness, pleasure, self-fulfillment, and other various human emotions?

[colonelguppy]

you missed my point. they don't reward people for having better skills.
You're right. The LTV doesn't exist.

what?



and actually no we are ranked above cuba in literacy rates, and i've never heard that about china.

Youth Literacy Rate
Cuba: 100%

[Sources: (1) World Development Indicators,
(World Bank, 1998, 1999) & (2) U.N. Statistics
Division, Millennium Indicators.]

Adult Literacy Rate
Cuba: 100%

[Sources: (1) UNICEF & (2) UNESCO Institute for Statistics.]


yeah i don't think any country has 100% literacy

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html

its more like 97%, or atleast according to the most recent report.

Education in China (http://www.asia-planet.net/china/education.htm)

number of college students in china: 3.14 million/1,313.973713 million = .24%

number of college students in US: 7.1 million atleast (number on government aid, thats all i can find) / 300 million = 2.3%

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/re...ion/000309.html (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/000309.html)

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by Scarlet Hammer+Oct 16 2006, 06:19 PM--> (Scarlet Hammer @ Oct 16 2006, 06:19 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Scarlet [email protected] 16 2006, 06:01 PM

[email protected] 16 2006, 10:57 PM
they all have the same economic reward, thus making any skills that differentiate between jobs valueless.
Who cares about bits of paper? Are you honestly that shallow and pathetic?
how else do you measure value if not with material things?
Well, I don't know, with trivial things such as happiness, pleasure, self-fulfillment, and other various human emotions? [/b]
and how does one go about measuring those percieved emotions? and once you do, are those feeling universal with every human for every situation?

[Cryotank Screams]

and how does one go about measuring those percieved emotions?

Who says they need to be measured at all? Do you not know when you’re happy and content? Or is there some kind of "meter-o-happy," that I don't know about?

Your either happy, or your not.


and once you do, are those feeling universal with every human for every situation?

Yea, I would say those emotions are universal, considering every human feels happy, and other such pleasurable emotions.

[colonelguppy]

Who says they need to be measured at all? Do you not know when you’re happy and content? Or is there some kind of "meter-o-happy," that I don't know about?

Your either happy, or your not.

well i did ask how we measure value....


Yea, I would say those emotions are universal, considering every human feels happy, and other such pleasurable emotions.

but thats not what i asked... are they universal to everyone in the same scenarios?

[Publius]

In other words, you would have nothing to lose from a Communist revolution.

By 'non-real entity' I mean nothingness itself.

So, necessarily, I would lose everything to nothingness, as nothingness is the negation of somethingness.

And I was worried for a second that I'd been caught.

[Cryotank Screams]

but thats not what i asked... are they universal to everyone in the same scenarios?

Of course not, but who said we live all through the same scenarios? No one lives exactly the same way, so therefore your theory is stupid.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by Scarlet [email protected] 16 2006, 07:26 PM

but thats not what i asked... are they universal to everyone in the same scenarios?

Of course not, but who said we live all through the same scenarios? No one lives exactly the same way, so therefore your theory is stupid.
not my theory, all i'm saying is that its much easier to determine vlaue of your skills through monetary means rather than subjective concepts of self fullfilment.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 01:30 AM
[not my theory, all i'm saying is that its much easier to determine vlaue of your skills through monetary means rather than subjective concepts of self fullfilment.
Really? Value of your skills? Whom has more skills Paris Hilton, or your average surgeon? Yet whom has more trinkets, and monopoly money?

[colonelguppy]

well whoever started hilton hotels and made the fortune probably has more skills

[England Expects]

I'd lose my pro-establishment status.

Wow, won't it be great after the revolution. I'll get to be a groovy and trendy revolutionary!

[MrDoom]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 03:49 AM
well whoever started hilton hotels and made the fortune probably has more skills
So? In what way does this entitle Paris Hilton to the wealth?

[Tungsten]

SovietPants

Youth Literacy Rate
Cuba: 100%

[Sources: (1) World Development Indicators,
(World Bank, 1998, 1999) & (2) U.N. Statistics
Division, Millennium Indicators.]

Adult Literacy Rate
Cuba: 100%

[Sources: (1) UNICEF & (2) UNESCO Institute for Statistics.]


100% literacy rate? That's great news. It's a pity that 100% are only allowed to read what Fidel Casto tells them they can read, though. It's a safe bet you won't catch them reading any books that criticise him, his revolution or communism itself.

[Tungsten]

Scarlet Hammer

Yea, I would say those emotions are universal, considering every human feels happy, and other such pleasurable emotions.
In every situation? This means everyone on earth has the same values, which is absurd.
MrDoom

So? In what way does this entitle Paris Hilton to the wealth?
Someone obviously values her or her family's work, otherwise she wouldn't be rich.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 01:07 AM
Youth Literacy Rate
Cuba: 100%


Cool, I'll be able to read the charges brought against me for speaking against the glorious state.

If it's like China, I'll be able to read the brand of the battery that's hooked to my testicles as punishment for speaking against the glorious state.

Awesome.

:lol:

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by England [email protected] 17 2006, 11:39 AM
I'd lose my pro-establishment status.

Wow, won't it be great after the revolution. I'll get to be a groovy and trendy revolutionary!
Then you'd get to be anti-establishment, which totally rocks man. Stick it to the establishment!

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 05:39 PM
SovietPants

Youth Literacy Rate
Cuba: 100%

[Sources: (1) World Development Indicators,
(World Bank, 1998, 1999) & (2) U.N. Statistics
Division, Millennium Indicators.]

Adult Literacy Rate
Cuba: 100%

[Sources: (1) UNICEF & (2) UNESCO Institute for Statistics.]


100% literacy rate? That's great news. It's a pity that 100% are only allowed to read what Fidel Casto tells them they can read, though. It's a safe bet you won't catch them reading any books that criticise him, his revolution or communism itself.
Produce some non-gusano evidence that castro has banned any books.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by MrDoom+Oct 17 2006, 09:46 AM--> (MrDoom @ Oct 17 2006, 09:46 AM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 03:49 AM
well whoever started hilton hotels and made the fortune probably has more skills
So? In what way does this entitle Paris Hilton to the wealth? [/b]
the guy who earned it gave it to her

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 05:46 PM
In every situation? This means everyone on earth has the same values, which is absurd.

Did I not address this already? I do believe I did, read through the thread before, debating me, thanks.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 07:20 PM
Produce some non-gusano evidence that castro has banned any books.
How about from the right-wing reactionaries that usually make up a large portion of the librarian population*?

http://libr.org/pl/19-20_Hamilton.html

* = sarcasm.

Or at Amensty International?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250022002

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/cub-summary-eng

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250012006

Or the rightwingers at "Journalists without borders":

http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=367

"In Cuba, any journalist who does not work for the official media is considered to be an “enemy of the state” or a “mercenary”. The changeover at the summit of the state between the Castro brothers and the promises made by Cuba in relation to human rights at the Non-Aligned Summit in Havana have unfortunately done nothing to alter this state of affairs."

"In 2006, Cuba is still the second biggest prison in the world for journalists after China. Three years ago it was the first, following an unprecedented crackdown which saw the arrest of 27 journalists, speedily tried and sentenced for alleged collaboration with the United States against “Cuba’s economy and national independence” under the terms of the 88 law or “gagging law”. Seven of these journalists who were victims of the “black spring” have since had their sentences suspended for health reasons, including Raúl Rivero and Manuel Vázquez Portal who have both gone into exile abroad.

For all that, the regime has never loosened its grip on the independent press. The daily experience of dissident journalists is of harassment, summonses and sudden periods in the custody of State Security (the political police). Three were arrested in 2005 and a fourth in May 2006. The “justice system” has never formally charged them."


Now that's freedom.

:lol:

[England Expects]

Originally posted by colonelguppy+Oct 17 2006, 07:44 PM--> (colonelguppy @ Oct 17 2006, 07:44 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 09:46 AM

[email protected] 17 2006, 03:49 AM
well whoever started hilton hotels and made the fortune probably has more skills
So? In what way does this entitle Paris Hilton to the wealth?
the guy who earned it gave it to her [/b]
Ah yes, the entitlement theory of Justice. Isn't Robert Nozick great!

Of course our revolutionary comrades believe that there is only one just transfer of property, namely theft by the money grubbing proletariat.

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 06:41 PM
yeah i don't think any country has 100% literacy
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html

its more like 97%, or atleast according to the most recent report.

Education in China (http://www.asia-planet.net/china/education.htm)

number of college students in china: 3.14 million/1,313.973713 million = .24%

number of college students in US: 7.1 million atleast (number on government aid, thats all i can find) / 300 million = 2.3%

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/re...ion/000309.html (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/000309.html)
America By Numbers (http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp)

Read the information in that link if you don't believe America is one of the worst in the areas of academics.


The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
Our workers are so ignorant and lack so many basic skills that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). No wonder they relocate elsewhere!
Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).
"The International Adult Literacy Survey...found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'" (Jeremy Rifkin's superbly documented book The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream, p.78).

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+Oct 17 2006, 01:55 PM--> (t_wolves_fan @ Oct 17 2006, 01:55 PM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 07:20 PM
Produce some non-gusano evidence that castro has banned any books.
How about from the right-wing reactionaries that usually make up a large portion of the librarian population*?

http://libr.org/pl/19-20_Hamilton.html

* = sarcasm.

Or at Amensty International?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250022002

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/cub-summary-eng

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250012006

Or the rightwingers at "Journalists without borders":

http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=367

"In Cuba, any journalist who does not work for the official media is considered to be an “enemy of the state” or a “mercenary”. The changeover at the summit of the state between the Castro brothers and the promises made by Cuba in relation to human rights at the Non-Aligned Summit in Havana have unfortunately done nothing to alter this state of affairs."

"In 2006, Cuba is still the second biggest prison in the world for journalists after China. Three years ago it was the first, following an unprecedented crackdown which saw the arrest of 27 journalists, speedily tried and sentenced for alleged collaboration with the United States against “Cuba’s economy and national independence” under the terms of the 88 law or “gagging law”. Seven of these journalists who were victims of the “black spring” have since had their sentences suspended for health reasons, including Raúl Rivero and Manuel Vázquez Portal who have both gone into exile abroad.

For all that, the regime has never loosened its grip on the independent press. The daily experience of dissident journalists is of harassment, summonses and sudden periods in the custody of State Security (the political police). Three were arrested in 2005 and a fourth in May 2006. The “justice system” has never formally charged them."


Now that's freedom.

:lol: [/b]
I don't know whether other members will agree with me considering their own views, but I don't believe you can include Cuba or any existing society of communism a TRUE communistic society. Castro can't really be a spokesman for Communism in my belief.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by Political_Chucky+Oct 18 2006, 12:49 AM--> (Political_Chucky @ Oct 18 2006, 12:49 AM)
[email protected] 16 2006, 06:41 PM
yeah i don't think any country has 100% literacy
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html

its more like 97%, or atleast according to the most recent report.

Education in China (http://www.asia-planet.net/china/education.htm)

number of college students in china: 3.14 million/1,313.973713 million = .24%

number of college students in US: 7.1 million atleast (number on government aid, thats all i can find) / 300 million = 2.3%

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/re...ion/000309.html (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/000309.html)
America By Numbers (http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp)

Read the information in that link if you don't believe America is one of the worst in the areas of academics.


The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
Our workers are so ignorant and lack so many basic skills that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). No wonder they relocate elsewhere!
Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).
"The International Adult Literacy Survey...found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'" (Jeremy Rifkin's superbly documented book The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream, p.78). [/b]
maybe one of the worst in terms of rank among industrialized countries, but i never claimed we were the best i just disputed the false facts that were being displayed to me. i htink out education system is indeed broken and is in need of reform to better suit the student.

and i honestly don't believe the statistics about the earth and the sun.

[blueeyedboy]

An important point raised on this particular thread is that why would someone work without obtaining any reward. I take it, in the present system, that the reward is the wage. To me, most wages are crap, and what about the people on the minimum wage. This isn't a reward, it's just a bit of money that these people have to use to live, which is almost impossible, because everything costs so much anyway. So, what actual rewards are the capitalists on here talking about?

In a socialist society, people would work, knowing that what they are producing is going to help the society in which they live. That's a just reward for me, and I wouldn't have any problem with that at all.

[England Expects]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 07:23 AM
An important point raised on this particular thread is that why would someone work without obtaining any reward. I take it, in the present system, that the reward is the wage. To me, most wages are crap, and what about the people on the minimum wage. This isn't a reward, it's just a bit of money that these people have to use to live, which is almost impossible, because everything costs so much anyway. So, what actual rewards are the capitalists on here talking about?

In a socialist society, people would work, knowing that what they are producing is going to help the society in which they live. That's a just reward for me, and I wouldn't have any problem with that at all.
I have lived on the minimum wage for a few years and can tell you that you're talking crap.

The minimum wage provides you with more than enough to live and entertain yourself. The only thing that makes it seem inadequate is the vast amount of junk which some people seem intent on spending it on.

As for working to help society, that's a pretty abstract reward. People tend to respond more to tangible rewards, like an envelope of cash handed to them every Friday.

I'm not up on all of your commie-nist double-speak but do abstract rewards alienate you from your labour?

[ComradeR]

You know there's really no point in arguing with these people, they've got their minds set that communism/socialism, or anything else thats against the current status quo is evil, and there's no convincing these idiots otherwise. You could show them all the evidence in the world and they wouldn't change their minds. And i mean it when i say their idiots, a good example of this is that they've spent this whole topic saying that communism is bad, because they think that under it skills would not be valued, and firmly believe that monetary value should be determined by what skills you have. Yet they turn around and defend the fact that Paris Hilton, who has no skills to justify it, has a large amount of wealth only because she is part of the privileged upper class, bit of a contradiction there.

[England Expects]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 11:03 AM
they've spent this whole topic saying that communism is bad, because they think that under it skills would not be valued, and firmly believe that monetary value should be determined by what skills you have.

Yet they turn around and defend the fact that Paris Hilton, who has no skills to justify it, has a large amount of wealth only because she is part of the privileged upper class, bit of a contradiction there.
Hiltons wealth is justified on account of the fact that her father has the right to choose who to give his wealth to and any interference by anyone else is unjust.

Monetary value? Skills?

If you have money to spend you decide how much you value a good or service that you desire and you spend accordingly.

[Pirate Utopian]

she as an invidivual has done nothing good to anyone but herself, so her dad may choose to who he gives it, but paris does nothing!, she was rich since her father's dick went squirt!

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 07:23 AM
An important point raised on this particular thread is that why would someone work without obtaining any reward. I take it, in the present system, that the reward is the wage. To me, most wages are crap, and what about the people on the minimum wage. This isn't a reward, it's just a bit of money that these people have to use to live, which is almost impossible, because everything costs so much anyway. So, what actual rewards are the capitalists on here talking about?

In a socialist society, people would work, knowing that what they are producing is going to help the society in which they live. That's a just reward for me, and I wouldn't have any problem with that at all.
If people aren't going to work harder to earn more money to feed themselves and their own family, how do you expect them to work harder to benefit societ (i.e. people they don't even know)?

[t_wolves_fan]

You know there's really no point in arguing with these people, they've got their minds set that communism/socialism, or anything else thats against the current status quo is evil,

Not evil, just unrealistic.


and there's no convincing these idiots otherwise. You could show them all the evidence in the world and they wouldn't change their minds.

How are you any different regarding capitalism? Is there anythign anyone could post that would get you to think that capitalism is not evil?


And i mean it when i say their idiots,

If you can't conjugate "they are" correctly, you should not be complaining about other people's idiocy.


a good example of this is that they've spent this whole topic saying that communism is bad, because they think that under it skills would not be valued, and firmly believe that monetary value should be determined by what skills you have. Yet they turn around and defend the fact that Paris Hilton, who has no skills to justify it, has a large amount of wealth only because she is part of the privileged upper class, bit of a contradiction there.

There's no contradiction: whoever in the Hilton family started the business deserves the wealth they generated. Once they had that wealth, it's their right to distribute it as they see fit.

[blueeyedboy]

Yes, but do they deserve their wealth though. Once someone starts a buisness up, they can't run it on their own can they. So they need people to help them, namely the workers. Once this is in full swing, then they just sit on their arses all day and let the workers do all the work. The workers generate the wealth, there is no denying that.

Do the pro-capitalists think that the economic system that is in effect now is fair to everyone all over the planet? I doubt it.

Also, the Hilton idiot. Maybe he had skills to set up this buisness, but he didn't use skills to generate wealth. The workers under him used their skills to generate his wealth, which he has then given it to the worst person you could probably give it to, his daughter Paris.

Another thing, back to the minimum wage thing and that people like seeing monetary rewards at the end of the week.

England Expects said that he/she lived comfortably on the minimum wage. The thing is, this minimum wage was just a fraction of what he should earn for the work he/she puts in to earn this stupid wage. Also, maybe people are happy with seeing a money package at the end of the week. That's if they can actually hold the damn package from the endless hours the people work to earn a pitiful sum of money. Basically, the workers don't get what they deserve, in my opinion and they are the most valued members of society, not out of touch conglomerates.

[t_wolves_fan]

Yes, but do they deserve their wealth though. Once someone starts a buisness up, they can't run it on their own can they. So they need people to help them, namely the workers. Once this is in full swing, then they just sit on their arses all day and let the workers do all the work. The workers generate the wealth, there is no denying that.

Provide evidence that the Hiltons or any other business owner/founder sits on their asses all day long once a business is successful.

Then provide evidence that not one single person employed by the Hilton company A>did so voluntarily and B>benefitted by getting a better job than they otherwise had at the time.


Do the pro-capitalists think that the economic system that is in effect now is fair to everyone all over the planet? I doubt it.

No, but to advocate otherwise pretends that life can be made to be fair. It can't.

I take a Churchillian attitude towards capitalism: It sucks, but it's better than all the other systems.


Also, the Hilton idiot. Maybe he had skills to set up this buisness, but he didn't use skills to generate wealth. The workers under him used their skills to generate his wealth, which he has then given it to the worst person you could probably give it to, his daughter Paris.

A> Hilton put the workers' skills to use in a way that generated wealth. That is a skill.

B> At any time, any of the workers or a group of the workers were free and capable of starting their own hotel chain. Why didn't they?


England Expects said that he/she lived comfortably on the minimum wage. The thing is, this minimum wage was just a fraction of what he should earn for the work he/she puts in to earn this stupid wage.

Because you say so?


Also, maybe people are happy with seeing a money package at the end of the week. That's if they can actually hold the damn package from the endless hours the people work to earn a pitiful sum of money. Basically, the workers don't get what they deserve, in my opinion and they are the most valued members of society, not out of touch conglomerates.

You speak of workers as an "other", does this mean you are not presently employed?

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Really? Value of your skills? Whom has more skills Paris Hilton, or your average surgeon? Yet whom has more trinkets, and monopoly money?

Think about it.

Would you really wanna BE Paris Hilton or someone of that stature? Think about all of the jerk-offs you have to encounter DAILY throughout your life?

In other words, who gives a shit about them. If somebody gave me a couple million dollars but then told me that I had to encounter human vermin in almost every minute of the day for the rest of my life...I would turn it down. And instead, just live modestly...like I do now.

Yes, I am a capitalist supporter but I realize that the Western model of capitalism has "distributed" more wealth more equally than any other system.

The Western model allows extreme rich but also a vast majority of who can live with sufficient dignity and a middle-class that lives like the ruling-classes of yester-year.

Don't drop out of school and don't have kids in your teens and early 20s and you'll be fine.

It's really not that fucking difficult.



Basically, the workers don't get what they deserve, in my opinion and they are the most valued members of society, not out of touch conglomerates.

The question is: What KIND of workers deserve to be the rulers?

McDonald's workers or engineers?

[Tungsten]

Jazzratt

Produce some non-gusano evidence that castro has banned any books.
Writing (probably reading too) a book that criticised him or his regime would be classed as a "counter-revolutionary" activity, therefore illegal. Are you denying that counter-revolutionary activity is illegal in Cuba?
ComradeR

You know there's really no point in arguing with these people, they've got their minds set that communism/socialism, or anything else thats against the current status quo is evil, and there's no convincing these idiots otherwise. You could show them all the evidence in the world and they wouldn't change their minds. And i mean it when i say their idiots, a good example of this is that they've spent this whole topic saying that communism is bad, because they think that under it skills would not be valued, and firmly believe that monetary value should be determined by what skills you have. Yet they turn around and defend the fact that Paris Hilton, who has no skills to justify it, has a large amount of wealth only because she is part of the privileged upper class, bit of a contradiction there.
She didn't get it. Her daddy got it and decided to give it to her. Are you going to tell people they shouldn't value their own children over others'? I can see your revolution having few followers.
blueeyedboy

The thing is, this minimum wage was just a fraction of what he should earn for the work he/she puts in to earn this stupid wage.
You say it's not enough. I might say it's too much, someone else might say it's just right. Let the purchaser decide the value and the seller take the best offer.

[England Expects]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 02:58 PM
England Expects said that he lived comfortably on the minimum wage. The thing is, this minimum wage was just a fraction of what he should earn for the work he puts in to earn this stupid wage.
As hard working as I am I really do think that the value of all the wonderful things that I spent my money on was in excess of the effort that I put in.

[blueeyedboy]

I don't advocate total abolition of capitalism, just that it be heavily regulated.

I just don't like to see mass inequality and I don't beleive that capitalism is the only way forward. I think it is destroying itself slowly, bit by bit, because it isn't harnessed. There is definite mass exploitation in certain places in the world, and this won't be tolerated for long, that's a certainty.

Also, i believe that, although capitalism creates a lot of wealth for the country, this isn't distributed properly by the country's rulers. This is obvious because there are still people living in poverty. You may say that people live better than ever, but only some people, not all.

If capitalism is such a great and wondrous economic creation, then why does it have so many enemies and so many problems. You can't say that the capitalists enemies don't have a point, as there's so many of them.

Another point is the media, which is obviously totally with the ruling class because it doesn't broadcast working revolutions or potential revolutions, cause they know that working class people in other countries will see it and think 'oh yeah, maybe thats what I should be doing'.

You can't say that society is set up to benefit anyone else than the wealthy because it just isn't. The rich can exploit the law and get off with a lot of crimes that ordinary working class people won't.

There is enough wealth in the world to distribute it all equally, and that's a definite.

I just don't like what capitalism has done to the world.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 06:03 AM
You know there's really no point in arguing with these people, they've got their minds set that communism/socialism, or anything else thats against the current status quo is evil, and there's no convincing these idiots otherwise. You could show them all the evidence in the world and they wouldn't change their minds.
sounds familiar...


And i mean it when i say their idiots, a good example of this is that they've spent this whole topic saying that communism is bad, because they think that under it skills would not be valued, and firmly believe that monetary value should be determined by what skills you have. Yet they turn around and defend the fact that Paris Hilton, who has no skills to justify it, has a large amount of wealth only because she is part of the privileged upper class, bit of a contradiction there.

well obviously paris hilton is valued by alot of people willing to pay her money so they can inturn make money off her (i.e. the entertainment industry).

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 06:40 PM
So what do you personally have to lose from communism/anarchism, anyways? It would seem to me that almost everyone is only poised to gain from socialist arrangements.
this is not the best question to ask a bush of hyper-active assholes waiting for an oppertonity to shout it all out...

what do capitalists have to lose by communism?

THEIR CAPITAL OFFCOURSE !!!!!

even a communist like me can anser that.

[Aeturnal Narcosis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 06:40 PM
So what do you personally have to lose from communism/anarchism, anyways? It would seem to me that almost everyone is only poised to gain from socialist arrangements.
this is from pages ago... but here's my ideas on the subject.

anti communists either

a) don't understand what communism is - they only know that the soviets were 'communists' because the media from the 50s - 90s told them so (they don't know the truth: the soviet union was a sing-party totalitarian system with a bureaucratic, government-run economy). they know that, according to the media / government / schools / etc. from the soviet era... we (the usa) were anti communist and they (the soviets) were communist.

or

b) they have hughe ammounts of power / wealth because of our system. they can't put themselves in the shoes of the everyday person and experience what we experience because they don't want to witness the true grit of everything their wealth is based on.

[Aeturnal Narcosis]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 18 2006, 04:55 PM
Think about it.

Would you really wanna BE Paris Hilton or someone of that stature? Think about all of the jerk-offs you have to encounter DAILY throughout your life?
i'd like to be paris hilton's first 2 fingers.

aw fuck it. i'd like to be her whole fist

[colonelguppy]

eww

[ComradeR]

QUOTE
and there's no convincing these idiots otherwise. You could show them all the evidence in the world and they wouldn't change their minds.


How are you any different regarding capitalism? Is there anythign anyone could post that would get you to think that capitalism is not evil?

Your right just as there's no convincing you that communism/socialism is better, there is no convincing us that capitalism is right. The thing that baffles me though is how you people can sit there, and defend a system that allows the top 20% to control 84% of the wealth, with the top 1% controling 33.4% of it, and that the majority (the working class) which is responsible for generating that wealth, receives the smallest share of it.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html


QUOTE
And i mean it when i say their idiots,


If you can't conjugate "they are" correctly, you should not be complaining about other people's idiocy.

uh huh


How are you any different regarding capitalism? Is there anythign anyone could post that would get you to think that capitalism is not evil?
t_wolves_fan's signature
is pissing off your parents really worth looking so stupid on the intranets?


anythign? intranets? Maybe you should check your spelling before you insult someone else's grammar dumbass.

[t_wolves_fan]

The thing that baffles me though is how you people can sit there, and defend a system that allows the top 20% to control 84% of the wealth, with the top 1% controling 33.4% of it, and that the majority (the working class) which is responsible for generating that wealth, receives the smallest share of it.

1>People are not equal in terms of intelligence, work ethic, drive, or productivity. Therefore when people are free, societal rewards will not be distributed equally. This being the case, those who do not do well through no real fault of their own should be given assistance in bettering their lives.

2>Labor does not generate wealth without direction. Labor for labor's sake would produce waste.



anythign? intranets? Maybe you should check your spelling before you insult someone else's grammar dumbass

One has to purposefully type "their" instead of "they're" while anythign is simply a typo. And "intranets" is web slang.

[Aeturnal Narcosis]

i didn't take the time to read through it all... but intranet is a real word... refers to a closed network (like in a hospital or school). but nontheless... if it was a douche bag (a capitalist) who said it... fuck him, goddamn cretin.

[mattnzn]

Lets see:

My family and I would lose all of our wealth and property.

I'd lose all my business knowledge which I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on and years of education. This would all be useless. My individuality would be gone.

Sounds great