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Pallawish
16th October 2006, 06:49
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Fitzy
16th October 2006, 07:01
If the Bourgeoisie is in the majority (such as in Australia where I am from) what is to be done if there is to be a revolution of the Proleteriat?
The proletariat will rule, even if they are not the majority. They will represent the will of the global majority.


How can you abolish classes if the Proleteriat is not in the position to do so because they are not the largest class?

The proletariat were not in the majority in russia.


The Bourgeoisie is over 50% in Australia, it is the largest of the classes in Australia.

Surely a Dictatorship of the Proleteriat would not be truly democratic and just if the majority of the populance were/are in fact Bourgeoisie?

Democracy is the rule of the majority. We are internationalists, so we do not see the 50% bourgeoise in australia as the majority. The small proletariat in australia would represent the global proletariat, thus it is democratic.


And another question.. Why are you so sure that if one country experiences a Proleterian Revolution, other countries around them will follow suit?

A successful revolution in one country certainly inspires the proletariat abroad, and may spark a revolution in other countries. But the conditions must be right in those countries for the revolution to happen.


Surely their media and the such can suppress knowledge of the revolution or portray in a bad light? Or what if the Proleteriat of another country just DON'T revolt? Can the one which did experience the revolution survive? The Stalinists think it can, but others think not... so if it can't, what then? Everyone with a brain thinks that the revolution can survive for a while in one country alone. Lenin thought so, its not just stalin. And no one beleives communism can be reached in one country alone. Heres a post that one of our members (criticizeeverythingalways) just recently made, that explains alot.



Originally posted by [email protected] Oct 15 2006, 03:57 PM
Stalin added only very little to Leninism aside from his idea of socialism in one nation.

The idea of socialism in one country did not originate with Stalin.

V.I. Lenin, Our Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1923/jan/16.htm)


Infinitely stereotyped, for instance, is the argument they learned by rote during the development of West-European Social-Democracy, namely, that we are not yet ripe for socialism, but as certain "learned" gentleman among them put it, the objective economic premises for socialism do not exist in our country. Does it not occur to any of them to ask: what about the people that found itself in a revolutionary situation such as that created during the first imperialist war? Might it not, influenced by the hopelessness of its situation, fling itself into a struggle that would offer it at least some chance of securing conditions for the further development of civilization that were somewhat unusual?

"The development of the productive forces of Russia has not yet attained the level that makes socialism possible." All the heroes of the Second International, including, of course, Sukhanov, beat the drums about this proposition. They keep harping on this incontrovertible proposition in a thousand different keys, and think that it is decisive criterion of our revolution.

But what if the situation, which drew Russia into the imperialist world war that involved every more or less influential West European country and made her a witness of the eve of the revolutions maturing or partly already begun in the East, gave rise to circumstances that put Russia and her development in a position which enabled us to achieve precisely that combination of a "peasant war" with the working-class movement suggested in 1856 by no less a Marxist than Marx himself as a possible prospect for Prussia?

What if the complete hopelessness of the situation, by stimulating the efforts of the workers and peasants tenfold, offered us the opportunity to create the fundamental requisites of civilization in a different way from that of the West European countries? Has that altered the general line of development of world history? Has that altered the basic relations between the basic classes of all the countries that are being, or have been, drawn into the general course of world history?

If a definite level of culture is required for the building of socialism (although nobody can say just what that definite "level of culture" is, for it differs in every Western European country), why cannot we began by first achieving the prerequisites for that definite level of culture in a revolutionary way, and then, with the aid of the workers' and peasants' government and Soviet system, proceed to overtake the other nations?

January 16, 1923
II

You say that civilization is necessary for the building of socialism. Very good. But why could we not first create such prerequisites of civilization in our country by the expulsion of the landowners and the Russian capitalists, and then start moving toward socialism? Where, in what books, have you read that such variations of the customary historical sequence of events are impermissible or impossible?


It was possible to build socialism in one country. Did that mean the final victory of socialism was possible in one country alone? No.

V.I. Lenin, Achievements and Difficulties of the Soviet Government (http://www.marx2mao.com/Lenin/ADSG19.html)


Complete and final victory on a world scale cannot be achieved in Russia alone; it can be achieved only when the proletariat is victorious in at least all the advanced countries, or, at all events, in some of the largest of the advanced countries. Only then shall we be able to say with absolute confidence that the cause of the proletariat has triumphed, that our first objective -- the overthrow of capitalism -- has been achieved.

We have achieved this objective in one country, and this confronts us with a second task. Since Soviet power has been established, since the bourgeoisie has been overthrown in one country, the second task is to wage the struggle on a world scale, on a different plane, the struggle of the proletarian state surrounded by capitalist states.

This situation is an entirely novel and difficult one.

On the other hand, since the rule of the bourgeoisie has been overthrown, the main task is to organise the development of the country.

Contrary to what the Trotskyites will tell you, Stalin held the same views. In a letter he wrote to a comrade in 1938:

J.V. Stalin, On the Final Victory of Socialism in the U.S.S.R. (http://www.marx2mao.com/PDFs/StWorks14.pdf)


Can the victory of Socialism in one country be regarded as final if this country is encircled by capitalism, and if it is not fully guaranteed against the danger of intervention and restoration?

Clearly, it cannot.


Hence, "Stalinism" is none other than Marxism-Leninism.

Pallawish
16th October 2006, 07:20
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apathy maybe
16th October 2006, 07:29
A discussion is sort of taking place here , http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=57417


Originally posted by Pallawish+--> (Pallawish)If the Bourgeoisie is in the majority (such as in Australia where I am from) what is to be done if there is to be a revolution of the Proleteriat?[/b]Quick definition check: according to Marxian class analysis, the bourgeoisie is the class that owns the means of production. The class that makes a profit from the exploitation of the proletariat with out actually working themselves. In this case, they are not in the majority anywhere. Yes people own shares, but this does not automatically make them bourgeois as they still have to sell their labour to live.

If you mean people who believe in capitalism, then yes they are the majority, but belief does not a capitalist make one.


Originally posted by [email protected]
Surely a Dictatorship of the Proleteriat would not be truly democratic and just if the majority of the populance were/are in fact Bourgeoisie?It is not possible in a capitalist economic system for this to be the case (assuming the definition of bourgeois given above). But yes it would not be democratic if the "proletariat" took power when they were not a majority (such as in Russia 1917 when the peasants where by far the largest class).


Pallawish
And another question.. Why are you so sure that if one country experiences a Proleterian Revolution, other countries around them will follow suit?

Surely their media and the such can suppress knowledge of the revolution or portray in a bad light? Or what if the Proleteriat of another country just DON'T revolt? Can the one which did experience the revolution survive? The Stalinists think it can, but others think not... so if it can't, what then?Well that is a difficult question, I think we shall just have to wait and see, but I am sure other members will have good answers for you.


(Oh, and if you are going to hang around RevLeft for a while (I hope you do), check out the Aus/NZ thread in introductions.)

Pallawish
16th October 2006, 08:13
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LoneRed
16th October 2006, 08:43
the Bourgeoisie 50% of all the people !!??!??!

how many would that be, in numbers?


Middle class, it depends on if they own part of the means of production, if they are just more wealthy working class, then thats different

Janus
16th October 2006, 10:42
The Bourgeoisie is over 50% in Australia, it is the largest of the classes in Australia.
That figure seems way too high. There can't be that many people at the top of the social hierarchy as it would overburden the lower classes and cause the system to collapse.

Pallawish
16th October 2006, 11:10
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Janus
16th October 2006, 11:15
The middle class is the Burgouisie right..?
No, the bourgeois own the means of production and are almost always in the upper classes. The middle class is a more vague term that is based on one's salary, consequently, many working class people are middle class as well.


ahh.. I see.. but isn't there a class ABOVE burgouisie?
No.


And thus the burgouisie are the one's in the middle, therefore the middle class?
No, the bourgeois are at the top of the hierarchy.

Pallawish
16th October 2006, 11:57
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apathy maybe
16th October 2006, 13:34
Part of the problem is that you are using two different meanings of 'class'. Marxian class analysis (for industrialised/capitalist countries) is traditionally based around relationship to the means of production (factories and the like). The terms lower (or working), middle and upper class are socio-economic terms and do not actually correspond necessarily to the proletariat, petit-bourgeois, bourgeois of Marx.

It is perfectly possible to have rich proletariat (such as people in Western Australia working in the mines). Ultimately, however, according to Marx, all the petite-bourgeois (bourgeois who still have to work) and rich proletariat will become poor proletariat. Class antagonisms will become more obvious and everyone will be pissed off and overthrow the government and the bourgeois. (Simplified significantly.)

Most middle class people are either moderately wealthy proletariat, or petit-bourgeois. It is a term that many people (even poor people) like to use for themselves, as who wants to be known as "lower class". Class distinctions along these lines are more prevalent in Britain then here (at least historically).

As to supporting the bourgeoisie, members of the middle class may or may not. It depends. According to Marx the majority (significant) of the proletariat (including the middle class) (which by the time of the revolution will include the petite-bourgeois) will obviously support their class interest, and join the revolt. Especially as things will be pretty shit for them all 'round.


(Please note that I don't actually necessarily agree with what I have mentioned in relation to Marxist theory, I agree with some of it. It is a convenient "short-hand" when discussing this sort of thing, as people generally know what you mean. Personally I find Marxian class analysis to be outdated and not up to scratch, but I don't really have anything to replace it with yet.)