What will happen?

[Stellix]

You radicals here sure complain alot, but do any of you have real solutions to our problems?

Often you talk about how cool third-world peasants are, but whst about the rest of us?
I live in an upper middle-class suburban town. How will our lives be different under Anarchism/Communism?

Do you plan to bulldoze the suburbs? the mall? burger king? How would you deal with people that refuse to give up all they have worked for?

[RaiseYourVoice]

Do you plan to bulldoze the suburbs?
not really, no


the mall? burger king?
no... maybe we would change the name tag of burger king to burger worker or something cooler


How would you deal with people that refuse to give up all they have worked for?
who wants to force people to give up what they have worked for?

[MrDoom]

no... maybe we would change the name tag of burger king to burger worker or something cooler
:D

[Avtomatov]

Yes. You havent worked for nearly any of its worth.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 03:46 PM


Do you plan to bulldoze the suburbs? the mall? burger king? How would you deal with people that refuse to give up all they have worked for?
Just the Burger King, and frankly that's no loss :lol:

Seriously, I, and i thinl most of us (though sadly not all) wish to build a better world. That, to me at least, doesn't involve persecuting anyone. The control of the means of production have to be transferred into the hands of those who work and a very different perception of property has to be used but I stand by Bertrand Russel's assertion that all but the tiniest minority of people would be better off from the implementation of socialism.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Often you talk about how cool third-world peasants are, but whst about the rest of us?
I live in an upper middle-class suburban town. How will our lives be different under Anarchism/Communism?
I'm not going to lie to you. You'll probably be less well off, and if you complain about it you will be dealt with. Deal.



Do you plan to bulldoze the suburbs? the mall? burger king? How would you deal with people that refuse to give up all they have worked for?
Why the hell would we bulldoze the suburbs? If anything, we'd expand and develope them. And as for the mall, they would continue to serve the same primary function as before, that is, to distribute goods to the masses. I don't really know about Burger King though, it's an interesting question. I think we have a thread about resteraunts in post-revolutionary society somewhere, but I don't think you can view it.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 03:46 PM
You radicals here sure complain alot, but do any of you have real solutions to our problems?
You have read Marx haven't you?


Often you talk about how cool third-world peasants are, but whst about the rest of us?I live in an upper middle-class suburban town. How will our lives be different under Anarchism/Communism? Depends entirely on what side of the revolution you are on.


Do you plan to bulldoze the suburbs? Depends wether or not they prove ineffeciant.
the mall? It would make more sense to use that space for somethign else, possibly as a communal supplying area.
burger king? Again, why bulldoze? We can just reuse the space.
How would you deal with people that refuse to give up all they have worked for? A bullet usually does the trick.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 08:46 AM
How would you deal with people that refuse to give up all they have worked for?
You mean those people who refuse to give up all they have made off of wage slavery. No one works on an individual level to make a profit as large as you are thinking.

[R_P_A_S]

I think you are more worried about your whoppers being abolished! LOL

[Pirate Utopian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 04:46 PM
You radicals here sure complain alot, but do any of you have real solutions to our problems?
no we piss against everything for no reason :rolleyes: ofcourse we do that is what Communism is!


Often you talk about how cool third-world peasants are, but whst about the rest of us?
based on nothing, we support revolution anywhere, and the rest is a part of this world that needs change


I live in an upper middle-class suburban town. How will our lives be different under Anarchism/Communism?
it will change for a better more fair society, you will not have to move to some ghetto as you think but in fact there will just less poor people


Do you plan to bulldoze the suburbs?
nope


the mall?
i like to reuse that like Jazzrat said


burger king?
i hope so, but prolly no


How would you deal with people that refuse to give up all they have worked for?
you mean their petty accesories?, go repoman on them :)

[Herman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 03:46 PM
You radicals here sure complain alot, but do any of you have real solutions to our problems?

Often you talk about how cool third-world peasants are, but whst about the rest of us?
I live in an upper middle-class suburban town. How will our lives be different under Anarchism/Communism?

Do you plan to bulldoze the suburbs? the mall? burger king? How would you deal with people that refuse to give up all they have worked for?

Do you plan to bulldoze the suburbs?

Depends on what the workers decide. In my opinion, no need to do that.


the mall?

No... I like malls, but they should be a free supply center of some sort.


burger king?

Why burger king? You could have said Taco Bell or McDonalds or whatever.

Someone suggested to give it a different name, such as burger worker. A better one could be Marx&Engels' Burgers.

[LuXe]

How about; Commy-burger - Finally! burgers with RED meat!

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 10:46 AM
Do you plan to bulldoze the burger king?
No, but McDonalds will have to be bulldozed as punishment for switching their fries to low fat low salt, and thus destroying on of the best drugs. Also, Walmart will have to be bulldozed, the same way concentration camps where torn down because they were symbols of evil.

Beyond that, no, the suburbs will not be bulldozed. But the rich yuppies in their McMansions will be evicted, and large poor families will be given the large houses. The McMansion dwellers will be assigned small apartments, because there are usually only two of them anyway.

Oh, and your country club will be converted to peasant farm land.

[RedStruggle]

This may give you something of an idea of what would happen concerning land:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...1861488,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1861488,00.html)

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by rev-stoic+Oct 14 2006, 04:48 PM--> (rev-stoic @ Oct 14 2006, 04:48 PM)
[email protected] 14 2006, 10:46 AM
Do you plan to bulldoze the burger king?
No, but McDonalds will have to be bulldozed as punishment for switching their fries to low fat low salt, and thus destroying on of the best drugs. Also, Walmart will have to be bulldozed, the same way concentration camps where torn down because they were symbols of evil.

Beyond that, no, the suburbs will not be bulldozed. But the rich yuppies in their McMansions will be evicted, and large poor families will be given the large houses. The McMansion dwellers will be assigned small apartments, because there are usually only two of them anyway.

Oh, and your country club will be converted to peasant farm land. [/b]
Where did you hear that? I worked at McDonalds and the fries were as greasy and unhealthy as ever. I even salted a few myself.

[YSR]

We will never "take power"! We will abolish power!

[KC]

We will never "take power"! We will abolish power!

Because you can really do that without taking power. :rolleyes:

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor+Oct 15 2006, 01:09 AM--> (Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor @ Oct 15 2006, 01:09 AM)
Originally posted by rev-[email protected] 14 2006, 04:48 PM

[email protected] 14 2006, 10:46 AM
Do you plan to bulldoze the burger king?
No, but McDonalds will have to be bulldozed as punishment for switching their fries to low fat low salt, and thus destroying on of the best drugs. Also, Walmart will have to be bulldozed, the same way concentration camps where torn down because they were symbols of evil.

Beyond that, no, the suburbs will not be bulldozed. But the rich yuppies in their McMansions will be evicted, and large poor families will be given the large houses. The McMansion dwellers will be assigned small apartments, because there are usually only two of them anyway.

Oh, and your country club will be converted to peasant farm land.
Where did you hear that? I worked at McDonalds and the fries were as greasy and unhealthy as ever. I even salted a few myself. [/b]
About 10 years ago McD's switch to a lower fat oil, think they also eliminated the use of animal fat. Around the same time, they switched to a low sodium salt. It has never been the same. Ah me... the fries of my youth are gone...

[Pirate Utopian]

mc donalds fries are most liquid it's that much fat

[Rollo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 01:46 AM
You radicals here sure complain alot, but do any of you have real solutions to our problems?

Often you talk about how cool third-world peasants are, but whst about the rest of us?
I live in an upper middle-class suburban town. How will our lives be different under Anarchism/Communism?

Do you plan to bulldoze the suburbs? the mall? burger king? How would you deal with people that refuse to give up all they have worked for?
Who? Anarchists, marxists, stalinists. Whacky primitivists? Specify please.

[Herman]

Because you can really do that without taking power. rolleyes.gif

I know, I know... they're so cute when they're young.

[Gradualist Fool]

Revolutionary Socialists would establish another totalitarian degenerated workers' state and decades later, their descendants would be ostracized by intellectuals for their failures, while they would continue to claim that their forefathers weren't "true Socialists."

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by Blue Dog [email protected] 15 2006, 04:27 PM
Revolutionary Socialists would establish another totalitarian degenerated workers' state and decades later, their descendants would be ostracized by intellectuals for their failures, while they would continue to claim that their forefathers weren't "true Socialists."
What makes you certain it would be totalitarian?

And what would "reformist socialists" do?

How exactly do you suppose a peaceful transition to socialism would happen?

If a reformist socialist party was elected, then civil war would ensue as the bourgeois attempt to resist losing power using the army.

(p.s. does anyone know if the army is institutionally under bourgeois control? All the senior officers in the UK seem to be from "old money" families, Dukes and Lords and what have you. Is there a reason for this?)

[Gradualist Fool]

Originally posted by Matty_UK+Oct 15 2006, 04:34 PM--> (Matty_UK @ Oct 15 2006, 04:34 PM)
Originally posted by Blue Dog [email protected] 15 2006, 04:27 PM
Revolutionary Socialists would establish another totalitarian degenerated workers' state and decades later, their descendants would be ostracized by intellectuals for their failures, while they would continue to claim that their forefathers weren't "true Socialists."
What makes you certain it would be totalitarian?[/b]
Because it creates a new bourgoisie and that's always been in its inevitable result, in the countless times it has been tried.

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
-Lord Acton

"If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Czar himself."
-Mikhail Bakunin


Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 04:34 PM
And what would "reformist socialists" do?
They'd do their best to alleviate the oppressiveness of Capitalism without causing total economic collapse by prematurely imposing the Socialist mode of production, and instead wait for the Socialist mode of production to establish itself. If Capitalism is so inefficient and technology will eventually necessitate its downfall, then there's no need for a band of murderous ragtag mercenaries to "establish" Communism.


Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 04:34 PM
How exactly do you suppose a peaceful transition to socialism would happen?
That's a difficult question, but there is no doubt that it will happen when it is supposed to happen, whether violently or not.

My opinion is that human nature will evolve and scarcity will be eliminated, both through technology, and to the point that Capitalism will be voluntarily abolished rather than overthrown. Those bourgoisie Capitalists who oppose it could not uphold Capitalism under democracy and so, instead, they'd try to establish totalitarianism. Thus, the Socialist revolution would involve more of a fight against totalitarianism and for civil government, to voluntarily establish Communism, rather than the direct overthrow of the bourgoisie and the authoritarian establishment of Socialism.

Another prospect is the possibility of a robotic "dictatorship of the Proletarian."


Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 04:34 PM
If a reformist socialist party was elected, then civil war would ensue as the bourgeois attempt to resist losing power using the army.
Hmm. Haven't seen that happen anywhere in America or Europe. By that I mean that "bourgoisie liberals," essentially share the same policies as non-revolutionary Socialists. In America, reform-minded Socialists simply started calling themselves "liberals" and "progressives," because of McCarthyism.


[email protected] 15 2006, 04:34 PM
(p.s. does anyone know if the army is institutionally under bourgeois control? All the senior officers in the UK seem to be from "old money" families, Dukes and Lords and what have you. Is there a reason for this?)
Oh, I don't doubt that governments are inherently under bourgoisie control, that they're inherently corrupt, exploitative, and oppressive, as is Capitalism, but only that revolutionary Socialism is even worse. Again: Every case where Socialists have tried to establish Communism, they have created degenerated workers' states and State-Capitalism. But if Communism is inevitable, why, from an individual standpoint, does anyone need to pick up a gun or start sending out mail-bombs?

If, in fact, there was a massive proletarian army, composed of 90% of the population, I could see your point. But as I see it, these Marxist militias are but a tiny minority, often led by Stalin-like figures who are more interested in becoming bourgoisie capitalists themselves than liberating the people. And as yet there is no economic basis to claim that any establishment of Socialism would end in anything but tyranny and economic regression.

[kaaos_af]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 11:12 PM
How about; Commy-burger - Finally! burgers with RED meat!
How about Vegie Burger? Finally some green.

[Stellix]

Originally posted by kaaos_af+Oct 16 2006, 12:28 PM--> (kaaos_af @ Oct 16 2006, 12:28 PM)
[email protected] 14 2006, 11:12 PM
How about; Commy-burger - Finally! burgers with RED meat!
How about Vegie Burger? Finally some green. [/b]
Aw, vegeterianism.

Humans are at the top of the food chain, deal with it pal.

[Cult of Reason]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 04:46 PM
You radicals here sure complain alot, but do any of you have real solutions to our problems?

Often you talk about how cool third-world peasants are, but whst about the rest of us?
I live in an upper middle-class suburban town. How will our lives be different under Anarchism/Communism?

Do you plan to bulldoze the suburbs? the mall? burger king? How would you deal with people that refuse to give up all they have worked for?
Bulldoze the suburbs? Personally I think there can be much better use of land, and that most people, if informed, would not think of the suburbs as ideal: after all, little individuality, uniform streets, and often far away from anywhere except the nearest supermarket. Useless. However, they would only be "bulldozed" if the majority of the population in the area they were in wanted them to be, and it would definitely not happen immediately (people have to live somewhere, right?).

The mall? Reuse for more Communistic distribution system.

Burger King? No. Rename maybe? Who cares. As long as it keeps going in a Libertarian way because I like the taste. :wub:

Give up all you worked for? Like what? A house you own the small piece of paper for? I am sorry, if many other people are in need of better housing and you have a mansion to yourself, you better share because in that situation people will not be persuaded by your arguments that you should keep all that space to yourself. Your TV, or other belongings? No. In the medium term such things can be produced as people wish, so where would be the incentive to take those things from you? Your car? Why bother? It is not as if we are going to provide you with gasoline for any trivial reason, when it is likely to be scarce in the immediate post-revolution. It would be used for things of priority, which your commute to work (which would be pointless anyway) would not.

[Lenin's Law]

Originally posted by Blue Dog [email protected] 15 2006, 05:09 PM



My opinion is that human nature will evolve and scarcity will be eliminated, both through technology, and to the point that Capitalism will be voluntarily abolished rather than overthrown.

But humanity already produces enough so that scarcity can be eliminated; it is not eliminated in reality because the corporate capitalist system is not designed to diminish scarcity but to exploit and profit. And "voluntarily abolished"?!? You are living in a dream world if you think powerful people, with lots of money invested in capitalism and almost complete control of the state will voluntarily give up power.


Those bourgoisie Capitalists who oppose it could not uphold Capitalism under democracy and so, instead, they'd try to establish totalitarianism.

I got a better idea. Let's just control the media, control the political parties, make the workers vote between bourgeois representive X or bourgeois representative Y and keep the facade of "democracy" going with naive pseudo-socialists and the like!

Oh wait, that's already happening! :rolleyes:

The sooner you realize we have anything but "democracy" but rather, the dictatorship of capital and the dictatorship of the bourgeois the better you will be.


Oh, I don't doubt that governments are inherently under bourgoisie control, that they're inherently corrupt, exploitative, and oppressive, as is Capitalism, but only that revolutionary Socialism is even worse. Again: Every case where Socialists have tried to establish Communism, they have created degenerated workers' states and State-Capitalism.

Who were these "socialists" that tried to establish "Communism?" And why are they socialists? Because they and the bourgeois media tell you they are? What if they also told you they believed in democracy and human rights (as I'm sure most of them do) would you then say blame democracy for their alleged failures?


But if Communism is inevitable, why, from an individual standpoint, does anyone need to pick up a gun or start sending out mail-bombs?

Who's sending out "mail bombs" or advocating it? Certainly not Marxists. Read Lenin's "What is to be Done" where he specifically attack individualistic terror methods ( a la The Weathermen)


And just because something is "inevitable" does not mean that you won't have to do anything to fight for it; indeed, the struggle for socialism is a necessary part of its inevitablility. What Marx was trying to explain here was that the contradictions of capitalism will become so great that the workers will not be able to tolerate it and thus will seek to abolish it. That is inevitable according to Marx, not that it will just disappear by itself. That's utopian schoolboy childishness.


Hmm. Haven't seen that happen anywhere in America or Europe.

Maybe because there hasn't been anything socialist coming to power in Europe or America for quite some time now. And so what if i "hasn't happened anywhere in Europe or America"? Do you believe the capitalists in other countries are made up of different DNA? Or are the capitalists in the US and Europe just nicer and cuter and oh, wouldn't dare do such a thing?

By the way, ever heard of a book called "The Civil War in France" by Karl Marx? Might wanna pick it up.

Are you really that naive that anything remotely "socialist" will be tolerated by capitalists who have invested trillions into their exploitative and predatory system?



By that I mean that "bourgoisie liberals," essentially share the same policies as non-revolutionary Socialists. In America, reform-minded Socialists simply started calling themselves "liberals" and "progressives," because of McCarthyism.

Wow. What a gem! So bourgeois liberals in America, like John Kerry, Bill Clinton, etc, well known defenders of capitalism , the "Free market", criminal wars of aggression, and responsible for countless of unnecessary deaths are, according to you, on the same page with non-revolutionary (false) "socialists"! Thanks for clearing that up! Good to know what side you are on; the side that has caused more deaths and have created more gross violations against humanity that even the fake "communist" regimes that you are so disgusted with.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by Blue Dog [email protected] 15 2006, 04:27 PM
Revolutionary Socialists would establish another totalitarian degenerated workers' state and decades later, their descendants would be ostracized by intellectuals for their failures, while they would continue to claim that their forefathers weren't "true Socialists."
Bingo!

[ZX3]

Originally posted by Blue Dog Liberal+Oct 15 2006, 05:09 PM--> (Blue Dog Liberal @ Oct 15 2006, 05:09 PM)

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 04:34 PM
And what would "reformist socialists" do?
They'd do their best to alleviate the oppressiveness of Capitalism without causing total economic collapse by prematurely imposing the Socialist mode of production, and instead wait for the Socialist mode of production to establish itself. If Capitalism is so inefficient and technology will eventually necessitate its downfall, then there's no need for a band of murderous ragtag mercenaries to "establish" Communism.


[email protected] 15 2006, 04:34 PM
How exactly do you suppose a peaceful transition to socialism would happen?
That's a difficult question, but there is no doubt that it will happen when it is supposed to happen, whether violently or not.

My opinion is that human nature will evolve and scarcity will be eliminated, both through technology, and to the point that Capitalism will be voluntarily abolished rather than overthrown. Those bourgoisie Capitalists who oppose it could not uphold Capitalism under democracy and so, instead, they'd try to establish totalitarianism. Thus, the Socialist revolution would involve more of a fight against totalitarianism and for civil government, to voluntarily establish Communism, rather than the direct overthrow of the bourgoisie and the authoritarian establishment of Socialism.

[/b]

Ach! Dissapointment. Since socialism is economically less efficient than capitalism, that circumstance will never arise.

LENIN LAW is absolutely correct: Socialism can only come about violently, never peaceably. Stalinism is the logical application of socialism. The only clear headed socialists on this board are the one's who promise violence and a bullet in the brain for those in opposition. And they are not kidding.