Anarchism and Socialism/Communism

[blueeyedboy]

If a anarchist society or a communism society are actually implemented, will the anarchists and the communists fight each other politically, or will they work together in improving the lives of the people, rather than just argue between each other.

Also, off topic, where can I find detailed information on the different strands of anarchism and communism/socialism.

Thanks.

[apathy maybe]

Anarchism is not a single ideology, it is a broad super-set. Information can be found in the following places, http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=6421 and revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=28053 on anarchism. Also do a search of just titles in the learning forum and theory for some more threads on any topic.

Communism is a variant of anarchism. Most Marxists call themselves communists because that is what they want. But you do not have to be a Marxist to want communism.

After a revolution, the main 'fighting' will be between those who want to move towards a class-less stateless society (aka anarchism) and those who would rather have a 'transitional' state (which so far seems to stick around for a lot longer then wanted).

Anarchists other then social anarchists (social anarchists include communists, syndicalists etc.), will not fight the collectivisation of society etc., so long as it is not forced.

I think that all leftists will attempt to work together to improve the lot of all humanity, but I could be wrong. After all, history has shown us that sometimes power really does corrupt (one of the reasons I am an anarchist, would you trust those who want power with it?).

[RedStruggle]

Anarchism differs primarily from Communism (In the marxist analysis) in the means by which the stateless and classless society advocated by both Marxist Communists and Anarchists is established, most notably, whether the power structures of Capitalism should be completely destroyed and no new (centralised) power structues should be established, or whether (as those who accept Marx's analysis believe) Capitalist Power structures should be replaced by new power structures based on the power of workers - the transitional state that apathy_maybe described. Leninism (at least in the sense of a vanguard party, and not 'the most class conscious workers' as some modern Leninists advocate) is the second option taken to an extreme where Bourgeois democracy, already a form of centralised state, is replaced by a tightly disciplined Vanguard Party to guide the revolution and manage post-revolitionary society


After a revolution, the main 'fighting' will be between those who want to move towards a class-less stateless society (aka anarchism) and those who would rather have a 'transitional' state (which so far seems to stick around for a lot longer then wanted).

I think its unfair to say that radical leftists who are not anarchists will not want to 'move towards a classless stateless society' simply because they believe in the existance of a state. I feel that a state would be of upmost importance in post-revolutionary society. The Dictatorship of the proletariat will not, as you suggest, merely involve sectarian leftist struggle, but also a struggle between the revolution and those who want to restore capitalist class relations. And in the defence of the revolution, a powerful institution carrying out the change from one mode of production to the other, destroying the Bourgeois class and the human characteristics that are formed by the Capitalist mode of production will be of utmost importance. It is hard to see how a new mode of production based on the social ownership of the means of production and on use value, rather than exchange value, can be carried out without some form of central authority guiding the process.

[RedStruggle]

Blueeyedboy, I find the following site to be a great introduction to the different ideologies that make up the radical, left, not least of all because of the diagram at the top giving an idea of the centralisation and radical concepts involved in each.

http://reds.linefeed.org/vocab.html

[apathy maybe]

Firstly, sorry to do this to your post, but it is easier to reply this way.

I think its unfair to say that radical leftists who are not anarchists will not want to 'move towards a classless stateless society' simply because they believe in the existance of a state.
I know Marxists who want to move straight towards a class-less state-less society. I think (just at the moment in this discussion anyway) that the most useful distinguishing factor in revolutionary leftists is, do they want a state post revolution? Not all Marxists do, no anarchist does.


I feel that a state would be of upmost importance in post-revolutionary society. The Dictatorship of the proletariat will not, as you suggest, merely involve sectarian leftist struggle, but also a struggle between the revolution and those who want to restore capitalist class relations. And in the defence of the revolution, a powerful institution carrying out the change from one mode of production to the other, destroying the Bourgeois class and the human characteristics that are formed by the Capitalist mode of production will be of utmost importance. It is hard to see how a new mode of production based on the social ownership of the means of production and on use value, rather than exchange value, can be carried out without some form of central authority guiding the process.
You see, I think that after a revolution the ruling classes will have simply lost power, will not have power, will be in no position to do anything except minor sabotage. They will not be the ruling class any more. Unless you wish to bring about a new ruling class (which by my definition is always a minority of the population, to say that the workers will be the new ruling class is just stupid), then you should oppose the creation of any new state. The state cannot be run by all of the population, it requires a small minority to be in power. They can claim to be 'representative' of the workers as much as they want, but when it comes down to it, they will not (cannot) be.

[apathy maybe]

Oh and to pimp my own posts,
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1292071570 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50071&view=findpost&p=1292071570)
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1292128464 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=53411&view=findpost&p=1292128464)
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1292067736 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49815&view=findpost&p=1292067736)

[blueeyedboy]

Thanks for that u've been a great help. Another thing, though, is where i can find detailed information on anarchist and socialist economics, as i'm particularly intrested in the economics side of things. Something with criticisms and the advantages of these would be a great help, as I like to see both sides of the story in everything.

Thanks again.

[RedStruggle]

I am not aware of any sites or databases specifically orientated towards economics, but the following are some of my favourite sites:

http://www.marxists.org/
http://www.resistancemp3.lpi.org.uk/

[VenceremosRed]

As someone who has been on both sides on the fence, (an anarchist and Marxist) I've found that really, right now -- it doesn't matter.

Right now the whole radical left is beat back (far back) and any leap forward from that position would be a welcomed one - be it anarchist or Marxist.

My subjective analysis is that anarchist focused revolutions have never proven sustainable, while the Marxist ones need to understand that their roles is to empower the masses by expanding the agency of the masses, not surpress it.

As of now, I am a Marxist trying to understand how to correct the errors of the past, and create more unity with other revolutionaries. I unite with all of them who want to overthrow capitalism for a more humane world.

[Janus]

If a anarchist society or a communism society are actually implemented, will the anarchists and the communists fight each other politically, or will they work together in improving the lives of the people, rather than just argue between each other.
There's always going to be disagreement in a communist society whether over macro or micro isses. Communism is not going to be utopia. I would also think that the extent of differences and conflict and how far these will go will already be largely predetermined by the society itself.

[cb9's_unity]

Naturally there will be disagreements between marxists/communists and anarchists. Hopefully they will work together in the state/non state and not resort to violence. I am a marxist and would support either a communist or an anarchist revolution. the reason i am a marxist(and somewhat of a libertarian one) is because i believe it is the best way to anarchy. this is why i hope the anarchists would work with the state after a communist revolution. they would be there in order to check the communists and make sure they weren't corrupt. on the other side it would be a mistake for marxists to try to build a state after there all ready is anarchy. i would work with the anarchists unless there was some sort of capitalist takeover or if chaos broke out.

[LoneRed]

I say the end goals are very similar, most of the differences is in the means to get there.

It's near impossible to answer this without confronting it