Are Jews 'White'

[duhey11]

im in 9th grade and although i have no religous beliefs, i consider myself to be jewish for ethnic/cultural reasons (i think you dont have to believe in judiasm to be a jew just like you dont have to believe in islam to be an arab). In history class, my teacher decided that columbus day would be a good time to start learning about post 1492 americas, including the subjugation/conversion of the native peoples by european colonialists. after the first lession, a friend of mine who is african-hispanic simply pointed at me and shook his head. I knew he was only joking and wasnt serioulsy implying that i myself was responsible for the suffering of the native peoples, however i decided that since 'many a truth is told in jest' i should clear things up with him.

i pointed out that as a jew, i was not really 'white' but rather that my people came to europe from the middle east, that 'pure' jews had dark hair skin and eyes (like arabs, who are closely related to us) and that the light skin and hair and blue eyes that i have are the result of progroms carried out by white europeans, which very often resulted in rape-pregnancies. I pointed out that this kind of abuse is not unlike that suffered by his ancestors, the native inhabitants of the americas.

the answer satisfied him, but i was wondering what people here thought of this idea

are (ethnic) jews european/white or are we of mixed european-middle eastern descent just as hispanics are of mixed white-native descent? (thereby entitling me to express soliderity with him and all hispanics)

[Rollo]

White, Black, Asian, Jewish, Catholic is all the same species. We're not different species. If say.. Black sperm fertilised asian eggs it woul result in... Human. White sperm black eggs.. Human. Asian sperm white eggs. Still human.

[LSD]

Let me first preface this post with the obvious reminder that "race" is an entirely mythical creation and one which has absolutely no biological or physiological reality.

The only place that race even matters anymore is in politics, and that's only insofar as racial/ethnic groupings affect class and social position. Therefore, the history of a "race" is only relevent if it continues to influence modern policy.

So, for instance, when it comes to blacks or arabs in the first world, the legacy of European colonialism must be part of the discussion because that legacy continues to affect how former "subject" races are treated today.

Whether or not Semitic or oriental or Khazari Jews were victims of forced pregnancies, however, has very little to do with the modern history of antisemitism.

Because of a number of historical accidents, including Judaism's close relationship with Christianity, the lack of a strong visible "Jewish" identity and the economic exploitation of the Jews in midieval Europe, the relationship between the white west and "Jewry" is somewhat ...complex.

On the one hand, yes, like other non-Christian non-"western" peoples, ethnic Jews have long been victims of discrimination. But then the entire foundation of "Christian society" is ultimately Jewish and a good deal of European dynasties are semetic in origin. In the late 19th century, some creative attempts were made at "de-semiticizing" Jesus, but for most of European history there was no dispute that Jesus Christ was ethnically and racially Jewish.

That tells us that, until only very recently, the European problem with Jews was not a "racial" one, it was a religious one. Martin Luther, sometimes called the founder of modern antisemitism, was an enormous proponent of conversion, forced and otherwise. Once a Jew converted, in Luther's eyes, he was as good as a white Christian.

Obviously the same could never be said for Africans. There was no theological or historical disputes between Europe and Africa, rather to the European, the African wasn't even human, he was "savage".

Sure, there were some half-hearted attempts to "convert the natives", but Christian Africans were never considered anything approaching the equal of a "westerner".

Judaism only became a "race" in the 19th century when pseudo-Darwinian Romantic Nationalism began linking country with identity and "nation" became more important than "Christendom".

Suddenly, rejecting Christ was no longer a good enough reason for marginalizing Jews, but because of 2000 years of seperation and the convenience of a resident alien "scape goat" integration was out of the question. And so partially as an accident, as partially as part of a concerted effort to keep the masses in line, Judaism become more about "blood" than "faith".

This effort was so successful that even most Jews have bought into it. Two millenia of ostracization created a community and community will co-opt any available identity, even one crafted by one's enemies.

So are Jews an "exploited race"? Yes and no. Certainly antisemitism remains a problem, but the real problem is the perpetuation of this racial paradigm. Jews don't constitute a "race" anymore than Germans or Latvians do and it's the implicit seperation of the "racial" model that actually keeps antisemitism so potent.

[duhey11]

thanks for your responce, but i think you misunderstood me

first of all, i never mentioned race and never refered to jews as a race. what i asked about was descent. what i was trying to imply was that jews constitute an ethnicity, just like germans, sweeds, russians, etc.

as for race itself. i dont believe that any one 'race' is better or more 'human' than others. i strongly believe that all people are equal and deserve equal rights. however you can't deny that europeans/whites have more in common with eachother genetically than with africans/blacks or asians, and vice versa.

[Rollo]

Judaeism is a religion, not a race.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Thank you Ace you cleared up alot for me i had been wondering :)

[classwarveteran]

Originally posted by Ace [email protected] 14 2006, 07:23 AM
Suddenly, rejecting Christ was no longer a good enough reason for marginalizing Jews, but because of 2000 years of seperation and the convenience of a resident alien "scape goat" integration was out of the question. And so partially as an accident, as partially as part of a concerted effort to keep the masses in line, Judaism become more about "blood" than "faith".

This effort was so successful that even most Jews have bought into it. Two millenia of ostracization created a community and community will co-opt any available identity, even one crafted by ones enemies.

While there was, early on, a lot of intermarriage with other groups in the Middle East, Jewish tradition and law did pay attention to ancestry. If segments of the bible and other anicent texts are to be believed (at least in part...) I think about 400 BCE there was a dictate for Jewish men to renounce their foreign wives, and not long thereafter, matrilineal descent was adopted as an indicator of "Jewishness." Before, tribal affiliation was determined through the father.

Interestingly, some sub-groups, like Kohanim or Leviim, are still determined through the father.

I've read contradictory reports on genetic studies, which would indicate whether Jews had more in common with other Jews genetically, regardless of where they were living, or if they had more in common with the non-Jewish populations in which they were living. Clearly, there was a lot of either intermarriage or rape. Some conversions to Judaism, but I can't really imagine the appeal, given historic persecution.

I think there were certainly historic ties to the Middle East and Africa amongst Eastern European Jewry (though as to specific territories...I'm not getting into that here), for example, I think there are certain things such as lactose intolerance that are more prevalent with Jews and those of North and sub-Saharan Africa, than with others. There is a sub-group of the Lemba tribe in South Africa which claims to be of Jewish descent. When the tests were run a few years ago, they did have a genetic marker for descent from the "priestly class" of Jews (no real special privileges, though amongst this class the last two thousand years). Go figure.

I do consider Jews an ethnic group as well as a religious group, keeping in mind that ethnicity and race are social constructs to a large extent, especially where there is always an interchange of culture and genetic material with other groups of people.

[LSD]

first of all, i never mentioned race and never refered to jews as a race.

You didn't use the word, but you certainly referenced the concept. After all, if Jews "aren't white", what are they?


what i was trying to imply was that jews constitute an ethnicity, just like germans, sweeds, russians, etc.

Understood, but my point was that it's actually a great deal more complicated than that.

[classwarveteran]

Yeah, I would not try to express solidarity with this classmate on the basis of historic persecution. Keep in mind, too, that some portion of the Spanish colonizers (probably a small portion) were from converso families -- that is, families of Jews who were more or less forcibly converted to Christianity.

Better to express solidarity based on current conditions you experience together.

[JC1]

If a Jew is not a Jew in ethnicity, then what ethnicity is he? To a say a Jew in say Germany is part of the German nation is ludricris. For one to be part of a nation presuposes membership in a stable community (i.e. intermarriage). Obviously Jews married Jews, making them a distinct community. Perhaps in parts of the American Diaspora of Jews, Jews are loosing distinct charecteristics, but in countrys outside of the US Jewish communitys are rather tight nit.

Keeeping in mind race is a social construct.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

If you believe in that whole race thing, Jews are not white - they are a different race. I don't believe in that nonsense myself.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 09:13 PM
first of all, i never mentioned race and never refered to jews as a race. what i asked about was descent.
The problem is, that you wrote as if descent mattered. That idea is part of the myth of race.

You can be 90% European by descent and still treated as "Black" in the U.S. At one time, sold as a slave.

Or American Jews could be 100% non-European by descent and still be treated as white. (Of course, they're not, and that's probably more due to ordinary intermarriage and conversions than to rape.)

(BTW, being an Arab, which you mentioned, is usually defined by speaking Arabic as your first language. A lot of nationalities are defined by language.)

"Ethnicities" or nationalities are not in reality defined by descent, "blood", or DNA. They are social realities. Yes, Jews are a "ethnicity" in that sense - I think Ace is wrong about that, and I'm going to respond to him also.

But that doesn't necessarily stop anyone from being white, any more than being Irish does.

So "are Jews white"? Well, which Jews?

In the U.S. today, most if not all Jews are certainly treated as white by society and, well, everyone. What's more, most Jews certainly consider themselves white, part of the white population that's privileged relative to Black people, Latinos, etc.

What's more, many Jews are relatively privileged in class terms, too. Often well-paid professionals and so forth. In the 1930s, there were a lot of Jewish garment workers, recent immigrants - that's certainly not the case in any industry today.

Rather than pulling the whole "I'm not white" business, why not point out that the problem is a system, not necessarily individual white people?

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

It's nice that you guys are trying to inform him, but you are being a bit too aggressive and making him defensive. He is in 9th grade. I didn't know what a social construct was in 9th grade - let alone that race was one. I say cut him some slack.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Ace [email protected] 14 2006, 01:23 AM
Obviously the same could never be said for Africans. There was no theological or historical disputes between Europe and Africa, rather to the European, the African wasn't even human, he was "savage".

Sure, there were some half-hearted attempts to "convert the natives", but Christian Africans were never considered anything approaching the equal of a "westerner".
I think you're partly wrong there. Initially, the main excuse for "Christendom" - not yet called Europe - to enslave and subjugate pagan Native Americans and Africans was - to bring them the true faith and save their souls.

The difficulty is, once they're converted, how do you go on justifying that very profitable slavery? So after a while, the racism excuse became the major one.

Now, in contrast, when European Jews converted to Christianity, they tended to become assimilated into the general European population. And even today, that tends to be the case; probably most people - especially most Jews - don't think "Jews for Jesus" are really Jews. (Neo-Nazis have a very different opinion, of course.)

And widespread perception is a big part of making social reality. But that's not necessarily the case when a Jew drops religion altogether; more on that later.


Because of a number of historical accidents, including Judaism's close relationship with Christianity, the lack of a strong visible "Jewish" identity and the economic exploitation of the Jews in midieval Europe, the relationship between the white west and "Jewry" is somewhat ...complex.

That's a strange view of the place of Jews in medieval Europe. There certainly was "a strong visible "Jewish" identity" - in many places because Jews were required to visibly set themselves apart, and above all because Jews were assigned a definite social role in precapitalist society.

Your description of their economic role in medieval Europe is a bit off too, if anyone wants to get into that I recommend a book called "The Jewish Question: A Marxist Interpretation" by Abram Leon.


That tells us that, until only very recently, the European problem with Jews was not a "racial" one, it was a religious one. Martin Luther, sometimes called the founder of modern antisemitism, was an enormous proponent of conversion, forced and otherwise. Once a Jew converted, in Luther's eyes, he was as good as a white Christian.

So you gotta ask why he's called the founder of modern anti-Semitism then. 'Course, in medieval times the authorities often didn't actually want Jews to convert. If that happened, the Jews wouldn't be able to carry out their specialized, despised but necessary, economic role anymore. Leon's book gives a number of examples of this, including bishops complaining about "their" Jews converting.

Luther was associated with the early beginnings of capitalism - and the rising capitalist class didn't need a specialized mercantile group anymore. The Jews were partly competed out of their old occupations and partly absorbed into the new capitalist class.

That eventually produced the various changes in the nature of European anti-Semitism. You gotta look especially at Eastern Europe and the particular way the delayed development of capitalism played out there. It was not just a later occurance of the same thing....

Poland had been known for toleration of the Jews, once; but when capitalism started to develop, and competition occurred for the traditionally Jewish occupations....that drastically changed.

Most Jews in Western Europe and North America are of Central or East European origin. The development of West European and North American anti-Semitism owes a lot to events in Eastern Europe as well.


And so partially as an accident, as partially as part of a concerted effort to keep the masses in line, Judaism become more about "blood" than "faith".

This effort was so successful that even most Jews have bought into it. Two millenia of ostracization created a community and community will co-opt any available identity, even one crafted by one's enemies.

As I pointed out earlier, Jews certainly did not lack for a sense of identity. If that wasn't true, Jews would've been assimilated long ago - when's the last time you met a Samaritan or a Philistine?

Nope, there's are other reasons why many Jews concluded they were still Jews by nationality even if they dropped religion. For one thing, most Jews in Slavic countries spoke a distinct language. Yiddish, which has more German than Slavic vocabulary.

Language and culture are often the defining features of nationality, y'know. Anyway, everyone in Eastern Europe considered Jews a distinct national minority, one of many. All socialist parties routinely addressed the particular problems and needs of Jews as part of their nationality programs.

The other factor you might consider is that Judaism has never been a world religion like Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism. It started as a particular tribe's religion; and never lost that particular character. How, then, to deny that its adherents are a distinct people?

And certainly proclaiming yourself "not Jewish" because you're not religious wouldn't stop the Black Hundreds from sending pogrom gangs after anyone. That's still true today.

[KC]

If you believe in that whole race thing, Jews are not white - they are a different race. I don't believe in that nonsense myself.

This is a ridiculous thing to say. There's nothing to "believe in" or "not believe in". Race exists whether or not you acknowledge it. Now, while race exists it is an invention; in other words, it exists about as much as value exists.

[Darth Revan]

The Jews have no difference between them and the country they came from its just a religion if a German christian person converts to Judaism that means he is no longer German? I was born to an Jewish family but in Russia i like to consider myself to be Russian and a Slav Judaism is just a religion the original Jews were almost all killed by the Romans or assimilated The Jews that live now are local people that converted to Judaism long time ago

[Rollo]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 15 2006, 04:53 PM

If you believe in that whole race thing, Jews are not white - they are a different race. I don't believe in that nonsense myself.

This is a ridiculous thing to say. There's nothing to "believe in" or "not believe in". Race exists whether or not you acknowledge it. Now, while race exists it is an invention; in other words, it exists about as much as value exists.
I suppose god exists too?

[classwarveteran]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 07:40 AM
I suppose god exists too?
As an invention, to be consistent with what he said before. :D

[BuyOurEverything]

i pointed out that as a jew, i was not really 'white' but rather that my people came to europe from the middle east, that 'pure' jews had dark hair skin and eyes (like arabs, who are closely related to us) and that the light skin and hair and blue eyes that i have are the result of progroms carried out by white europeans, which very often resulted in rape-pregnancies. I pointed out that this kind of abuse is not unlike that suffered by his ancestors, the native inhabitants of the americas.

See, this highlights one of the many absurdities of the concept of "white". In North America, the "white race" is constantly expanding to accept new immigrants. Jews are a perfect example. Not too long ago, most Jews worked in sweatshops and were not considered "white". Today, for the most part, they are, and we have new people to work in sweatshops. The same goes for the Irish. Also, Italians and many other nationalities.

The point is that race is a very flexible and imprecise concept. What really matters is not lineage, but how whatever race you are considered to be today affects you.

[duhey11]

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 15 2006, 06:11 AM
It's nice that you guys are trying to inform him, but you are being a bit too aggressive and making him defensive. He is in 9th grade. I didn't know what a social construct was in 9th grade - let alone that race was one. I say cut him some slack.
thanks for sticking up for me :)

but dont worry, i understand everything said here, even if i disagree with some of it

and i actually hope no one 'cuts me any slack' since that just holds back on the flow of discussion

[KC]

Originally posted by classwarveteran+--> (classwarveteran)
Rollo
I suppose god exists too?
As an invention, to be consistent with what he said before. [/b]

This is true. God is a concept invented by and contained in our minds and nothing more. The difference, though, is how god and race have manifested themselves in society. Race is a construct that has infiltrated society much more completely and homogeneously.

[Demogorgon]

It is my understanding that some are and some aren't.

Refer yourselves to israel where (surprise surprise) white Jews are in control and non white Jews are treated nearly as badly as other Arabs.

[RedKnight]

There are non-white Jews. http://www.nbn.org.il/news05/JI_090605_files/aliyahnews-falasha.jpg http://www.ethiopianrestaurant.com/images/ethiopian_jews_photos_6.jpg These are Jews originaly from Ethiopia. Some more african Jews. http://www.blackandjewish.com/bajpages/ethiopian2.JPG http://www.kulanu.org/menu/courtesyofrichardsobol1.jpg There are even jews from India. http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/turn%20left%20at%20the%20end%20of%20the%20world.jp g As for the existance of Samaritans. http://www.zajel.org/gallery/assets/samaritans.gif

[Aeturnal Narcosis]

some jews are white, especially the jews in the united states (notice how most of them have german last names, like rosenberg, bernstien, goldstien, rosenbaum, spielberg, etc.)... though they trace their originas to the middle east... but jewish people have been persecuted ALOT throughout history... they've had to leave their homelands repeatedly, and over the centuries, they've blended with whatever people they've come into contact with, sinse they're a minority everywhere except israel, and now they come in all colours.

in the highschool from which i graduated, there were a few jews, and most of them were white (their ancestors came to amerikka from various parts of europe, especially germany and eastern europe), and 1 was a pakijew - he was from pakistan (i think i have a pretty good idea why his family left), looked like a pushto (which is also part of the european geographical race - they look like europeans, but have darker skin and more hair), but was jewish.

the only places i haven't heard of there being any jewish people is far east asia, like china, japan, korea, vietnam, etc... but who knows, there might be a few... it's definitely possible you'd find a few in japan or south korea - like any other intelligent people, they go to places where a) they can make money, and b) where they won't be unfairly treated.

all i know... jewish women are hot, no matter what colour they are or what race they belog to.

[RedKnight]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_in_Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 12:02 PM
As for the existance of Samaritans.
Hm - Wikipedia says there about 700 Samaritans in the world. Didn't know that.

Anyway, I was making a more general point about assimilation over the millenia.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 06:02 PM
http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/turn%20left%20at%20the%20end%20of%20the%20world.jp g
:wub: They're pretty.

[Aeturnal Narcosis]

i stand corrected... the kaifeng jewish woman in that picture on wikipedia is NOT hot... (i'm assuming the one standing is a woman... if i know my oldcore chinese customs, women always stand when their husband is present)...

they look like dwarfs, kind of

but i think that answers the question... not all jews are white... seems they exist in all three of the geographical races (european, african, asian)

[Airbag]

This is where people contradict themselves. While insisting that Jews are not a race and are only a religion, they still throw around the term "anti-Semitism" as though Jews are a race. Moreover, while denying that there differences between whites, blacks, etc, people still cry racism as though there are genuine differences between the races.

People don't oppose Jews on the basis of race. They only oppose them on the basis of socioeconomic status, religious beliefs, and the occupation of Palestine parts of which Zionists call "Israel".

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2006 07:46 pm
This is where people contradict themselves. While insisting that Jews are not a race and are only a religion, they still throw around the term "anti-Semitism" as though Jews are a race. Moreover, while denying that there differences between whites, blacks, etc, people still cry racism as though there are genuine differences between the races.

People don't oppose Jews on the basis of race. They only oppose them on the basis of socioeconomic status, religious beliefs, and the occupation of Palestine parts of which Zionists call "Israel".
your a real fucking idiot and an apologist for anti-semitism.

[Airbag]

your a real fucking idiot and an apologist for anti-semitism.

Marx called Jewry a religion of huckstering.

Leftists oppose a sizable portion of Jewry represented by AIPAC on the basis of the oppression of the Palestinians.

Some Christians still hate Jews on the basis of their religious beliefs. Other Christians like the televangelists are basically Zionist puppets who encourage donations to Israel.

How the fuck is pointing out the facts tantamount to being an apologist to anti-Semitism? What group that is not on the fringe oposes Jews on the basis of race?

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2006 07:56 pm

your a real fucking idiot and an apologist for anti-semitism.



Leftists oppose a sizable portion of Jewry represented by AIPAC on the basis of the oppression of the Palestinians.

yes but lefts appose these people as zionists. If people apply their hatred of those in AIPAC to others who simply share their ethnicity then the latter group are being attacked on account of their ethnicity. Guilt is bieng attributed on the basis of ethnic association.


Any3way the fact that p christians dislike jews befdause of their religion or whatever does tnot preclude the possibilty of ta racial/ethnic anti-jewish feeling co-existing

[Airbag]

yes but lefts appose these people as zionists.

I've never disputed that.


does tnot preclude the possibilty of ta racial/ethnic anti-jewish feeling co-existing

Jews who converted to Orthodox Christianity in Russia would be accepted in mainstream society. This means that opposition to Jews has historically been on the basis of religious beliefs. There is no basis to your argument.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2006 08:02 pm



does tnot preclude the possibilty of ta racial/ethnic anti-jewish feeling co-existing

Jews who converted to Orthodox Christianity in Russia would be accepted in mainstream society. This means that opposition to Jews has historically been on the basis of religious beliefs. There is no basis to your argument.
laughs out loud - that is the most ridiculous leap from the specific too the general i have ever seen. In this particular example religion may have superseded ethnicity- although it should be noted that jews who werew simply atheists (like for example the bund) would still have been restrcted/sdiscriminated against in a way people of non-jewish descent would not have been. In this sense the fact that there was a religious route of escape did not preclude people from suffering purely on the basis of their background.

In early modern spain the conversos - hthe descendants of those who had converted remained subject to varying degrees of discrimination, dislike and even progroms based on a kind of proto-racial hatred

In germany of course where there had been significant conversion jews under hitler were defined on the basis of grandparents

in vichy france it bwas not even necessary to know the religion of the grandmparent simply to know they had jewish background

thus contrary to what you say there is much basis to my argument

[Raisa]

Semites. people from the meditteranean and middle east, mainly middle east are racially colonized people.

White people wouldnt call recognize many of the heroic or famous people from your land as what they really are, mediterranean or semites because then they couldnt colonize those famous people.
What im saying is that europe is christian my friend,
And they used christianity to take over the world of colored people acting like how they look and how they live is superior, and that theri relationship with god is superior because of those things, and vice versa. It goes hand and hand.
They used Christianity as an excuse to dominate other people that werent the same as them......
ANd they couldnt really have done this as well as they did if they didnt have pictures of white Jesuses and Moses and Pauls and Peters to back it up with!

Some people og the jewish faith are white.
Their mixed so much with european that their white, they participate in the white powerstructure and look down on others just like whites.
And they call themselves white. THose white washed jews are white with jewish back grounds. Jew is their religion. They might not be white completely in the blood but they are the White MAN.
The white MAN is the powerstructure.

But semetic blood is semetic blood and thats it.
It is its own thing.

[TC]

Raisa, your belief system is just an idiosyncratic, invented identity centred mysticism. What you just described has no basis in socio-political or biological reality. Theres no such thing as 'semetic blood', anymore than theres 'slavic blood' or 'germanic blood' or 'italic blood', linguistic groups don't coorellate with some kindof blood type. "White" as a race is a socio-political grouping that exists only in the context of social discourse, it has no indepedent reality in 'blood' and in the social discourse it includes mediterianian people. Races have no indepedent reality so the concept of 'racial colonization', representing a group of people as part of a racial group when they are 'really' a race onto themselves, is a catagorical error since the socially dominant view of what constitutes a race and what a race is, is one in the same.

I would guess Raisa that your discomfort with being white and desire to construct a rather elaborate explaination for how you are in fact not white, has more to do with an immature, non-class based, identity-centric understanding of oppression which is discussed in this thread: http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=58922

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2006 12:10 am
Semites. people from the meditteranean and middle east, mainly middle east are racially colonized people.
....
Some people og the jewish faith are white.
Their mixed so much with european that their white, they participate in the white powerstructure and look down on others just like whites.
And they call themselves white. THose white washed jews are white with jewish back grounds. Jew is their religion. They might not be white completely in the blood but they are the White MAN.
The white MAN is the powerstructure.

But semetic blood is semetic blood and thats it.
Excuse me, Raisa, but why does it matter what "blood" somebody has? Why is that the defining factor in dealing with politics and history?

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2006 04:12 pm
I would guess Raisa that your discomfort with being white and desire to construct a rather elaborate explaination for how you are in fact not white, has more to do with an immature, non-class based, identity-centric understanding of oppression which is discussed in this thread: http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=58922
I dont have a discomfort with being anything, there is nothing wrong with being a white person. I have nothing against white people. If I was white, Id be the coolest white girl ever, and that would just have to be the end of the story.


As for your link, I do not really see the situation mediterranean and semetic people are in as 'opressed" by the white power structure and I never said I did. It isnt even like I have spent estensive time descussing the issue, but it is possible that if white imperialists wanted to dominate the world using images of apostles from a supreme god, that they would portray and view those apostles as white, and consider the people where they came from white too so they can racially dominate the planet in the name of god..which they fucking DID. You cant take over the world as teh superior race holding up a picture of an olive skinned jesus with big black nappy hair and a broad nose, the world isnt going to fall for it. ANd Im not sure if it is intentional by the white power structure as a result,but people of the mediterranean descent have a hard time with racial identity often living in the western world where white culture dominates.
This isnt social identity, cultural identity or political identity, this is physically trying to match up and fit in. Cause it is not the same. And there is nothing wrong with not being hte same, and thats all Im saying. Im sorry you are opposed to that...


Aside of the prophets coming from the mediterranean and middle east, so did alot of very important literature.
You can not teach people that your race is the smartest or the most civilized if history is taught in the way that while the egyptians and greeks were reading and making irriagation and agriculture and trading with the palestinians, that the northern europeans were wearing animal hides and living in less sophisticated conditions. Instead to glorify white people, you would begin the timeline of history as " mesopotamia, ancient egypt, turkey, greece, and more mediterranean shit....and then coincidentially, when they seem to be on the same level of civilization, mostly from being colonized by rome (who was influenced by the wrest of the mediterranean).....WESTERN EUROPE. And then you will never hear about the meditteranean in the whole text book ever again. So you must ask your self, if the book is 85% about western europeans what were they doing for the other 15% of the beginning of the book, and why couldnt it just be taught to grade school children honestly? For the last hundreds of years it was to promote an imperialist ideal thats why!
there is a reason why there is not alot of ethnic consciousness among mediterranean descendants in the west and it is because of the white supremacist way history is taught and all I said basically was that a Peoples identity is lost in this bullshit. It isnt that important but I think about EVERYTHING mathematically and things do not just happen a certain way. I construct nothing, just because I am not a simple thinker.

I dont know what your opposition to this reality stems from but it is almost reactionary to me that you are hating on some real shit.
People do have ethnic differences, and there is nothnig wrong with them. We are equal but we are not the same just like 2+2 is not the same as 4 but it is equal.
New etnicities will be made inbetween them maybe, but soon we will all just be mixed, making a new world race of people who will be genetically stronger having better immunity but for now we have our differences, and to insinuate that any non white person should deny them in a white dominated world, is almost white supremacist in itself.


"there is no such thing as race, just take 30 minutes to destroy your image and look like this white person as best as you can so you can have a job!"

:rolleyes:

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2006 04:40 am
but it is possible that if white imperialists wanted to dominate the world using images of apostles from a supreme god, that they would portray and view those apostles as white, and consider the people where they came from white too so they can racially dominate the planet in the name of god..which they fucking DID. You cant take over the world as teh superior race holding up a picture of an olive skinned jesus with big black nappy hair and a broad nose, the world isnt going to fall for it.
I gotta tell you Raisa, everyone makes Gods in their own image, not just white people. And the pale Jesus images probably go right back to the conversion of the north European barbarians by Mediterranean missionaries....helps to convert people to show 'em a God in their own image.

Anyway, certainly well before the rise of capitalism and the West European conquest of the world. Also, the racial and religious justifications for conquest are partly different justifications. You can use the racist excuse for conquest without any Jesus at all.

And you can, in fact, use the excuse of conquering and enslaving people in order to convert 'em - without racism being involved. For example, Black Muslim Sudanese are using that justification against Black Christian Sudanese.

I gotta say all this seems like some white people = uniquely evil racialist BS. In reality, Europe conquered the world because it developed a more progressive sytem - capitalism - and more advanced tech that went with it. Not 'cause it was specially evil.


You can not teach people that your race is the smartest or the most civilized if history is taught in the way that while the egyptians and greeks were reading and making irriagation and agriculture and trading with the palestinians, that the northern europeans were wearing animal hides and living in less sophisticated conditions.

Actually, that's how history has always been taught. I don't know who denies this. Mainstream history teaches that the Roman Empire was conquered by barbarians from Northern Europe, etc.

Even the Nazis didn't claim there'd been some advanced civilization in northern Europe - they had to chase all over the world, even to Tibet, looking for the ruins of some ancient "Aryan" civilization.

I think you're creating a straw man here.

Anyway, you haven't answered my question: why does "blood" or descent matter to you?

[kifl]

well there are white, black and asian jews(including arabic jews) maybe there will be green jews.
who cares? we were put on the same planet.

blood is important.

Raisa why are you fixated on blood/

[Raisa]

I am not fixated on blood.
I study anthropology alittle bit, I think people should have self consciousness so they do not lose their dignity trying to emulate a group whois in power, but the question was are jews white...and I gave my answer.

Why are you asking me the same question another person already asked me?

[Severian]

Originally posted by Raisa+December 07, 2006 03:00 am--> (Raisa @ December 07, 2006 03:00 am) I am not fixated on blood. [/b]
Let's see....


[email protected] 19, 2006 12:10 am
Jew is their religion. They might not be white completely in the blood but they are the White MAN.
The white MAN is the powerstructure.

But semetic blood is semetic blood and thats it.
It is its own thing.

Sounds kinda fixated to me.

"Race", "blood" and so forth are all myths. There is a social reality of race, but it doesn't necessarily correspond to any biological reality. Your race, in the only sense it's real, depends on what race everyone thinks you belong to.

As I pointed out earlier in response to Duhey:

You can be 90% European by descent and still treated as "Black" in the U.S. At one time, sold as a slave.

Or American Jews could be 100% non-European by descent and still be treated as white. (Of course, they're not, and that's probably more due to ordinary intermarriage and conversions than to rape.)

(BTW, being an Arab, which you mentioned, is usually defined by speaking Arabic as your first language. A lot of nationalities are defined by language.)

"Ethnicities" or nationalities are not in reality defined by descent, "blood", or DNA. They are social realities. Yes, Jews are a "ethnicity" in that sense - I think Ace is wrong about that, and I'm going to respond to him also.

But that doesn't necessarily stop anyone from being white, any more than being Irish does.

So "are Jews white"? Well, which Jews?

In the U.S. today, most if not all Jews are certainly treated as white by society and, well, everyone. What's more, most Jews certainly consider themselves white, part of the white population that's privileged relative to Black people, Latinos, etc.

What's more, many Jews are relatively privileged in class terms, too. Often well-paid professionals and so forth. In the 1930s, there were a lot of Jewish garment workers, recent immigrants - that's certainly not the case in any industry today.

Rather than pulling the whole "I'm not white" business, why not point out that the problem is a system, not necessarily individual white people?

[Hiero]

Raisia's problem is she follows a similar idea to the old European racial theory (without the Nordic supremcy). That there exist in Europe, the Nordic race, Alpine Race and the Mediterranean Race. The idea that there is a Mediterranean race or even ethnicity is ridicilous. There is no connections between Spanish, Algerian or Greek people, except maybe ancient history, which has little bearing on ethnicitis today. The claim that all mediterranean people in the West have a problem fiting in and face oppression is false. In Australia, in the earlier 19th centuary Greek and Italian immigrants were used only for manual labour and faced oppression. Today in Australia these communities have a strong identity and have strong social networks, dominated either by the Orthodox Greek Church or the leftist Greek groups. However this is clearly different to the Arabs (north Africans) in France. The difference is partly history, the north African Arabs were a colonised people. Greece was never colonised in the same way, after World War 2 they faced neo-colonialism from the USA and Britian. Old colonised immigrants face more oppression then other immigrants.

I think you are fixated on blood and false racial theories. You should take a materialist approach and look at modern history and modern ethnicities.