What is North Korea?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Some say North Korea is socialist (as in North Korea is ruled by the proletariat).

Some say North Korea is a feudalist monarchy.

But what is really the truth?

What do you believe North Korea really is?

[bezdomni]

Some say North Korea is socialist (as in North Korea is ruled by the proletariat).
Really?

As in, people other than Kim Jong Il?


Some say North Korea is a feudalist monarchy.
Really?

[R_P_A_S]

North Korea is the Dear Leaders Pimp Palace

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Really?

As in, people other than Kim Jong Il?

Yes, as in some leninists/stalinists.


Really?

Yes.

[Zeruzo]

It's Juche which is a form of socialism. Not a preferable one, if you ask me. But it still is.

[Enragé]

how is juche a form of socialism
aka
a transitionary period marked by a state under the control of the working class
?

[Zeruzo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 09:33 PM
how is juche a form of socialism
aka
a transitionary period marked by a state under the control of the working class
?
Juche is socialism in the sense that the means of production are in the hands of the workers.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Juche is socialism in the sense that the means of production are in the hands of the workers.

The means of production is in the hands of the Dear Pimp.

[Janus]

It could be considered state socialist in which the state controls the means of production but in no way do the workers themselves hold power in NK.

[Led Zeppelin]

Military dictatorship with nationalized means of production.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 08:14 PM
It could be considered state socialist in which the state controls the means of production but in no way do the workers themselves hold power in NK.
hence not socialist

[Jesus Christ!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 08:28 PM
Military dictatorship with nationalized means of production.
Agreed.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

State-Capitalism

[LuXe]

Stalinists?

[Demogorgon]

It is a feudal monarchy. And I say that with conviction.

It is not as some have suggested a form of Stalinism, Stalinism is State-Capitalism and North Korea is Feudal, not capitalist.

It's governing structure is remarkably similair to the governing structure in feudal times (much more so than under Stalinism incidentally) and the reason I say it is a monarchy is because the leadership is hereditary, something that is never present under State Capitalism.

It is a pretty terrifying thing really. Feudalism with the technology necessary to keep the subjects under constant control.

[Janus]

hence not socialist
Yes, I agree with . in that it is a dictatorship maintained by a strong military.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 09:49 PM
Stalinists?
Not unless somone has learned necromancy.

[Janus]

Not unless somone has learned necromancy.
There's no need for necromancy when the state itself was established in part by Stalin.

[apathy maybe]

"What do you believe North Korea really is? "
A shit hole. An example of how you should not listen to everything a certain breed of Marxist (generally Leninist with Stalinist or Maoist leanings, sometimes an out right Stalinist) tells you.

It is a dictatorship where the majority of the population are hungry, the average life expectancy and height is decreasing and the rulers are rich and fat.

It is in no way socialist, no matter what definition of socialist you use. While it is called "communist" by the media, it is through either ignorance or a desire to paint all "communist" countries with the same brush (they also call Cuba, Vietnam, Laos and sometimes China "communist", I don't think they know what that word means).

It is an example of where Marxian class analysis is inadequate.

[Comrade Kurtz]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 09:40 PM
State-Capitalism

[combat]

A worker's deformed state that needs a political anti bureaucratic revolution led by the proletariat.

[BreadBros]

The thing is North Korea seems to be in a state of regression. Under the early years of Kim Il-Sung, it may have been classified as "state-socialist" or "state-capitalist" or whatever you interpret the USSR to have been. Since then, due to their isolation, lack of technological growth, etc it has regressed into essentially a feudal monarchy. Instead of a "proletarianization" as most societies under capitalism and Soviet-style state-capitalism experience, its experienced a large amount of peasant-ization and reduction in industrial manufacturing. The presence of a large military is not surprising, as that was an aspect of various feudal societies as well, and would be moreso today with increased technology and reliance on military power in international affairs.

[Cryotank Screams]

North korea;
I personally believe that north korea has no real political system, and is really just kim jong il's little play thing.

[Hiero]

It is not a feudal monarchy. Don't be so stupid. There is no serf-lord relationship, which is required to be a classified as a feudal soceity.

Here is a structure of feudalism.

http://www.bayeuxtapestry.org.uk/images/feudal-system.gif

Contray to the DPRK system, which has local government and a national assembly which involves election in a centralised manner. The DPRK has a reasonably industrial society, maybe not very modern as the imperialist nations (but why compare a poor nation to a parasitic nation whos wealth is accumulated by theft?). So there are no conditions for feudalism to exist which were destroyed after the war of liberation against the US and Japan.

[Severian]

It's an almost classically Stalinist state, the last one left of an old pattern. This is mostly an argument over words; everyone knows what the underlying reality is. Even the bourgeois press sometimes refers to north Korea as "the world's last Stalinist state."

Whatever term you use for the USSR in the 30s, or China in the 50s, that's likely going to be what you call north Korea today. If you're reasonably thoughtful and consistent, and don't get carried away by emotional propaganda in the media, etc.

When the bourgeoisie really gets geared up, their war propaganda can be an overwhelming thing. It's an orchestra of many instruments, playing many variations on a theme. It's easy to become part of it.


Originally posted by BreadBros
Since then, due to their isolation, lack of technological growth, etc it has regressed into essentially a feudal monarchy. Instead of a "proletarianization" as most societies under capitalism and Soviet-style state-capitalism experience, its experienced a large amount of peasant-ization and reduction in industrial manufacturing.

Admit it, you're just making stuff up here. Of course, its current economic crisis probably involves a considerable decline in every kind of production.

[Hiero]

The DPRK is beging to overcome the 1990's famine and it's economy is growing. It's much like Cuba, it can only make small steps at a time.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 12:46 AM
The DPRK is beging to overcome the 1990's famine and it's economy is growing.
That's probably true, but

It's much like Cuba,
That's one thing it definitely ain't.

[Hiero]

That's one thing it definitely ain't.

Maybe not politicaly and culturally, but their economies are similar. Both nations are very poor and a vulnerable to disaster. North Korea is more prone to famine, but if Cuba ever had a drought followed by floods like North Korea, Cuba would be in the same situation. Maybe a bit well off due to connection with S.America, but it would be very similar.

[Comrade Kurtz]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 08:33 AM

That's one thing it definitely ain't.

Maybe not politicaly and culturally, but their economies are similar. Both nations are very poor and a vulnerable to disaster. North Korea is more prone to famine, but if Cuba ever had a drought followed by floods like North Korea, Cuba would be in the same situation. Maybe a bit well off due to connection with S.America, but it would be very similar.
The difference is the Cuban people don't starve in the streets while Fidel Castro hoards food and other resources. What's more, the Cuban people are given health care. Believe me, I'm the first to admit that Cuba is a very flawed, perhaps even failed communist experiment but to compare it to the horrors of Kim Jung Il's North Korea is insulting at very best.

[KC]

The difference is the Cuban people don't starve in the streets while Fidel Castro hoards food and other resources.

Do you have evidence that this is what Kim Jung Il has done?

[Hiero]

Kim Jong Il is a dragon who hoards all the gold and food under his mountain. The only way to kill him is shooting a arrow under his front legs where his gold armour does not cover.

[Lenin's Law]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 08:43 PM
Some say North Korea is socialist (as in North Korea is ruled by the proletariat).

Some say North Korea is a feudalist monarchy.

But what is really the truth?

What do you believe North Korea really is?
I'm sorry, but anyone who says that North Korea is remotely "socialist" either doesn't what socialism is or is an enemy of socialism that is trying to slander it.

[KC]

Kim Jong Il is a dragon who hoards all the gold and food under his mountain. The only way to kill him is shooting a arrow under his front legs where his gold armour does not cover.


Unless you have got the Gem of Immortality obtained by Lord British after defeating the evil Mondain. ;)

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 09:07 PM

Really?

As in, people other than Kim Jong Il?

Yes, as in some leninists/stalinists.


Really?

Yes.
Normally you substantiate such claims, as I have never heard the DPRK referred to as a feudal country, nor have I really heard much support for them aside from the Sparts and a few other whacks.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by SovietPants+--> (SovietPants)nor have I really heard much support for them aside from the Sparts and a few other whacks.[/b]

Doesn't TragicClown support DPRK? And view it is a socialist state?

She's not a spart, but a Leninist.

dit:

Found da post (my emphasis):


TC
I support the DPRK in its state and economic system (not in its culture though, cause its increadibly tacky) and although authoritarian anarchists and ignorant marxists frequently dismiss it, the fact is that it has an economic system identical to Cuba's and a state system that is different but equivolent to Cuba's and I am far from the only person on this board who supports them in this fashion. The standard position of most orthodox trotskyist parties is to support the DPRK as a deformed workers state, in its economy and and state structure while not necessarily supporting the current administration as optimal (the Sparticists for instance are hardline pro-DPRK).

The fact that western propaganda has been more effective in spreading lies about the DPRK than Cuba is not evidence that the DPRK is less socialist than Cuba. The Americans accuse all of their enemies of being undemocratic and oppressive, and while they occassionally are (Iran, Burma, Taliban), they most often are not (Cuba, Venezuela, Nicauaga, Vietnam, etc).

There has never been any substantial evidence to support any significant american claims against the DPRK, only hearsay claims from politically interested defectors (the same type who talked about Iraqi WMD) and unsupported allegations in the western press made by US government officials and quoted as facts. I understand that the western leftist schepticism is that "even if its not all true, well, some of it must be" but the fact is that the only credibility it has is frequent repetition in the media along the theory that if you tell a big enough lie enough times then people will believe it for the simple reason that they would think it would be absurd to lie so big so often. This is however, standard western propaganda practice and it can't be treated as positive evidence for anything.


Do people agree with this analysis?