Women in the communist movement

[Matty_UK]

I've been thinking lately that the communist movement seems to be somewhat male dominated. In a local anarchist group, there are 3 women and 6 men. And in a local marxist leninist group, out of the core members there are 6 men and 1 woman, 2 if you count a friend of the one who occasionally helps out. And looking on this board, I can only think of a handful of female members but there are many many male members.

Are women less likely to be leftist radicals? Or are there just less interested in politics? And why?

One thing I've noticed with some female friends is they seem to be more likely to have an idealised Willy Wonka image of a capitalist. Do you think this is the case or am I mistaken? I thought perhaps that as girls are often encouraged by their parents and society in general to find a nice rich man this effects their view of the rich?

Or do you think they do not have a more idealised vision of wealthy people at all? Women are definitely less interested in politics and perhaps there are many women who sympathise with communists but aren't interested in getting involved. Why do you think women are not interested in politics, is it just an effect of patriarchy that many may consider it "not their place"?

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 09:41 PM

One thing I've noticed with some female friends is they seem to be more likely to have an idealised Willy Wonka image of a capitalist. Do you think this is the case or am I mistaken? I thought perhaps that as girls are often encouraged by their parents and society in general to find a nice rich man this effects their view of the rich?

Or do you think they do not have a more idealised vision of wealthy people at all? Women are definitely less interested in politics and perhaps there are many women who sympathise with communists but aren't interested in getting involved. Why do you think women are not interested in politics, is it just an effect of patriarchy that many may consider it "not their place"?
You're really increadibly sexist and so removed from reality as to barely warrent a serious response.

[Matty_UK]

That's ridiculous.

If I said it was biologically inherent that would be sexist.

If I said it's because of the way they are brought up it is not.

There is definitely an under-representation of women in the communist movement, why is this? It isn't a question that should be ignored for fear of being accused of sexism.

And how exactly am I sexist? That is an accusation I find hugely offensive so you better back it up.

[socialistfuture]

a lot of groups are patriarchal and even a lot of ppl i know are still a bit sexist at times. the old marxist, authoritarian model wasnt the best for gender equality.

where i am theres a female anarcha collective and stuff like that so, when theres probs they get talked about and things worked out. yeh the anti capitalist scene (spec in unions and communist groups with quite a lot of old people in their membership) seems to be quite male dominated. tho i know of heaps of exceptions, ie female spokespersons, and so on.

[socialistfuture]

sadly i think ppl like matty uk is one of the reason a lot of females arent into joining and being active in sum of those groups. brush up on ure act man

[bolshevik butcher]

I think it's certainly unfortunatley true that there are less women than men in the socialist movement, in Britain at any rate. Society brings women up not to think about 'big things' and to focus on doing housework and bringing up kids, and also possibly their own career. Of course there are exceptions, but even within the socialist movement women often seem to fall victim to forms of pasive sexism.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 03:46 AM
sadly i think ppl like matty uk is one of the reason a lot of females arent into joining and being active in sum of those groups. brush up on ure act man
Could you please explain how my post was sexist?

<_<

[socialistfuture]

u act as tho woman are all fine with capitalism because some like shopping etc, if u look at the world - u will find a lot of woman are murdered and raped and left to pick up the pieces from wars, which are often male dominated.
to say woman are &#39;more likely to have an idealised Willy Wonka image&#39; of capitalism sounds as though you think they are less intelligent or more likely to be duped by advertising etc. I think your post sounded condescending.

Have u read any books on feminism? are you aware of female involvement in the Zapatistas. I think you assumed because there are less woman in some communist groups that they are less caring about the world, and problems within it. As I said a lot of communist groups are still quite male dominated and very centralised and authoritiarian - I think that is why a lot of people arent intrested in them. I find a lot of woman are more drawn to anarchism and were I am into gender politics and things that effect communities.

[Morag]

I have to agree that the post was sexist, in that woman, as a group, would have an idealised view of capitalism that men are somehow smart enough to avoid... But, it is still a genuine question that deserves an answer, and I don&#39;t think you can just say, &#39;Society teaches women to think of housework, not revolution,&#39; and be through with it. I actually think that many of the men in our groups don&#39;t appreciate the time constraints that many women have that have nothing to do with housework. I&#39;ve always felt that women are often much busier in their personal lives, and sometimes that&#39;s children or things at home, but sometimes it&#39;s other things to. I find it strange when male comrades refered to meetings or activities as &#39;work,&#39; because to me, and most female activists I know, political work is done in our free time. And for many women who would become involved in political activities, they just don&#39;t have any free time.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 09:51 PM
u act as tho woman are all fine with capitalism because some like shopping etc, if u look at the world - u will find a lot of woman are murdered and raped and left to pick up the pieces from wars, which are often male dominated.
to say woman are &#39;more likely to have an idealised Willy Wonka image&#39; of capitalism sounds as though you think they are less intelligent or more likely to be duped by advertising etc. I think your post sounded condescending.

Have u read any books on feminism? are you aware of female involvement in the Zapatistas. I think you assumed because there are less woman in some communist groups that they are less caring about the world, and problems within it. As I said a lot of communist groups are still quite male dominated and very centralised and authoritiarian - I think that is why a lot of people arent intrested in them. I find a lot of woman are more drawn to anarchism and were I am into gender politics and things that effect communities.
Yeah I&#39;ve got a booklet on women in the Zapatistas.

Sorry if my post sounded sexist, I assure you I&#39;m far from sexist. I definitely didn&#39;t intend to imply that women don&#39;t care just as much, I was just speculating that perhaps the different ways women are brought up encourages them to stay out of politics.

And women definitely are underrepresented not just in leftist circles but in politics in general. The only reason I can think for this is because they are brought up to consider it not their place moreso then men; I went to a catholic school so there were a lot of kids from conservative reactionary families, and this is an impression I got from them; boys brought up by reactionaries seemed to me (but this is just my experience and probably not representative) to be more politically vocal even if they had bullshit views. People seem to react as if I&#39;m talking about ALL women in general and I&#39;m not, I&#39;m talking about those brought up by reactionaries. Women I know who have strong progressive political views are not from religious or conservative families, but with regards to the girls from conservative familys I think what I said is largely true, even if I could have phrased it more tactfully.

But btw I disagree with your reason for why women aren&#39;t involved-"a lot of communist groups are still quite male dominated." Surely that&#39;s circular? "Women aren&#39;t involved because they aren&#39;t involved."

Maybe you&#39;re right that they;re more drawn to anarchism, but I don&#39;t know if that&#39;s certain. And the anarchist movement too is male dominated.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 10:57 AM
I have to agree that the post was sexist, in that woman, as a group, would have an idealised view of capitalism that men are somehow smart enough to avoid...
I didn&#39;t say that, I suggested that perhaps lots of women being brought up being told that a rich man is the ultimate goal might make them less antagonistic to the wealthy. Going against the values your parents have taught you is something very difficult, and I do think I&#39;ve detected the sort of attitude I mentioned in some women but I did not mean to suggest it was with women in general.

[socialistfuture]

i would say matty don&#39;t take what people are saying to u personally - take it as advice and things u can learn from. here a lot of activists - where i live - are always brought up on gender issues and sexism - even real cool on to it ppl. anyone can be racist or say sexist things, even if they don&#39;t intend or imply them.
maybe it has a little bit to do with a catholic upbringing.
a lot of religions are male dominated too, patriachy - ie god is male and all supreme, eve sinned and so all woman are inferior (summed up - cliches and all).

it is a problem at times within judaism, christianity, islam and many other religions and cultures - within socialism, anarchism, buddhism and so on. it goes beyond idealogy and faith. sexism is something that needs to be continually addressed - wether in revolutionary or other societies. the spanish civil war had large female involvement and was quite intresting for the type of involvement and duties that were shared. i would encourage u to read about feminism and femisnist history if u want to better undertstand why some woman are put off from macho, patriachical groups.

for things to work there must be male and female aspects and involvement.
my lil rant :D

[socialistfuture]

and equality of course.


But btw I disagree with your reason for why women aren&#39;t involved-"a lot of communist groups are still quite male dominated." Surely that&#39;s circular? "Women aren&#39;t involved because they aren&#39;t involved."
i know for a fact that here a lot of girls see communist groups and unionism as male dominated - anarchism too - but anarchists have looser structures where woman can take part more easily i find, or other groups have more anarchist structures rather than authoritarian ones that are often more suited to strong male leaders. so woman need to be comfortable to participate - and feel it is relevant to their lives.

in old days men were kings, warriors, priests and workers (sumtimes slaves) and woman were wives, politics was a place for men - that tradition has only resonably been broken in some societies and remains to be yet in others sadly. I think u need to understand that something that is normal to u may be sexist to sumone else - or simply issues effecting woman missing from ure politics - ie rape and male violence thru war and abusive relationships is huge. so the anti war movement needs to know woman and children suffer from what are often male dominated wars.

tho some tribal societies or old ones had strong woman - ie celts and others. also had female leaders or participants. we need to know that fighting for human rights and against oppression also includes fighting sexist violence - wether verbal or physical. a slogan used by feminists is MEN CAN STOP RAPE, im not gunna go futher into things, ppl need to educate themselves and understant the deeper meanings and reasons why there are gender issues and ways to make things work well. be intrested to here female views on this.

cheers

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 12:28 PM
i would say matty don&#39;t take what people are saying to u personally - take it as advice and things u can learn from. here a lot of activists - where i live - are always brought up on gender issues and sexism - even real cool on to it ppl. anyone can be racist or say sexist things, even if they don&#39;t intend or imply them.
maybe it has a little bit to do with a catholic upbringing.
a lot of religions are male dominated too, patriachy - ie god is male and all supreme, eve sinned and so all woman are inferior (summed up - cliches and all).

it is a problem at times within judaism, christianity, islam and many other religions and cultures - within socialism, anarchism, buddhism and so on. it goes beyond idealogy and faith. sexism is something that needs to be continually addressed - wether in revolutionary or other societies. the spanish civil war had large female involvement and was quite intresting for the type of involvement and duties that were shared. i would encourage u to read about feminism and femisnist history if u want to better undertstand why some woman are put off from macho, patriachical groups.

for things to work there must be male and female aspects and involvement.
my lil rant :D
Thank you, that was a very mature post.

Where would you recommend I start if I want to learn about feminism?

[TC]

I was going to comment on this thread, but then, trying to read it, SocialistFuture and Matty_UK just offend me on too many levels i&#39;d need to waste more time to give a response than it would be worth.

[RedKnight]

I do not think that there is a lack of involvement universaly. In many countrys, Communists are about the only ones standing up for women&#39;s rights. The Central Commitee of the Worker Communist Party of Iran is largely female in number. http://www.wpiran.org/English/central%20committee%20page.htm