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STI
11th October 2006, 11:16
When we see a person who looks like crap, who's late for a meeting, or who loses his temper in public, how often do we construct possible "reasonable explainations" for why that person is in that particular situation? Do we often consider what external factors might have attributed to or even caused a given condition? When it happens to be ourselves in such a situation, we certainly do - almost always, actually. We look like crap because our laundry got lost (no, it was probably stolen... you can't lose a whole bag of laundry in a two-bedroom apartment for three full weeks), we're late because there was a long lineup at the coffee shoppe and we caught every red light on the way to the meeting, we're pissed off because we're quitting smoking and our friends are riding our asses over stupid shit. It's circumstantial, not an intrinsic part of who we are. It's caused by external factors.

That's no problem, it's one of the ways we defend our own self-esteem, allowing us to continue as healthy, functional individuals.

But what about when it comes to other people? It's not always, not usually, and almost never the case. We make quick "judgements" about Joe Somebody based on what we see for that brief moment - Joe's unshaven with a coffee-stained shirt because he's dirty or doesn't care about the way he looks. Mary is late because she doesn't care or isn't 'together' enough to get places on time. Paul is flipping his lid because he's just a dick. Violencia.Proletariat screwed up the quote tags because he's a dufus (!) - we attribute each specific situational occurence to who that person fundamentally is (The "Fundamental Attribution Error")

These "first impressions" are so important because of the way we organize information - into schemas based on what little information we have. This is functional: it doesn't take much time or mental effort, and is usually more effective than just "going in blind" - if for no other reason than because it gives an indication of what's going on with that person *this very second* (ie: is s/he friendly and approachable? does s/he pose a threat?). More than that, it's usually not urgent, as you'll likely not see Joe or Mary or Paul for some time.

Oh, and this form of automatic social thinking can be consciously overridden.

So, we'll find explainations for our own "fuckups", but attribute the fuckups of others to "who they are". . Like I said before, this is a normal part of automatic social cognition and is usually harmless because there's usually no intrinsic urgency or importance to the conclusions we draw. [i]Usually

The harm comes in when the conclusions we draw have a deep impact on the way we look at the world...

Take "Human Nature", for example. It's certainly easy to draw the conclusion, given the violent, savage, greedy history of the human species (most of whom are "not me", remember), that humans must be fundamentally greedy, ignorant fucks.

But when we consider the external factors that would have influenced that behavior, a much different picture emerges.

The most important factor is scarcity. When you can't live comfortably, desperation is bound to set it. You'll probably find yourself more "able" to, say, club that other pre-historic human to get his food - you'll starve if you don't!

Another is ignorance of the facts. It's a fact that, genetically speaking, there is more of a difference within races than between them. That wasn't known 50 years ago, much less 300. So, when a white southerner saw the same group of illiterate black slaves every day, he didn't think to attribute it to some other factor - "it must just be the way black people are." Again we see the untempered effects of the fundamental attribution error. The white southerner simply didn't know that there wasn't actually a biological difference between "his race" and the "black race", so he had nothing to give rise to an override of his automatic thinking. It's not that "black nature" is to be illiterate and servile or that "human nature" is to be xenophobic and hostile - there are other factors involved.

There could be any number of factors contributing to the (dare I say) appauling manner in which our species has acted in the past, but rather than go through each conceivable one in detail, I'll just mention one more: conditioning. That racist white southerner will almost invariably pass those same attitudes and values on to his children, who, taking their father's word, will be influenced in the same direction. It should be noted that this has faded, generally, from one generation to the next since the dawn of capitalism with increased literacy, access to actual information, and "liberation" of the young (how common is it for a person to live near their parents at 25 compared to what it was 200 years ago? Much, much less).

So, then, if these factors that contribute to human barbarism are removed, what will we be left with? If scarcity is (effectively) eradicated (increasingly possible as productive technologies are developed further), scientific knowledge is more widespread (as is necessary for the functioning of any technologically-advanced society... even a capitalist one), and parents are no longer passing shitty values down to their kids (on its way out), plus all the other things I didn't mention, how will people act?

Good question. I think they'll pursue higher motivations - fulfillment, acceptance, self-actualization. Sociopaths notwithstanding, pursuing these motivations involves neither unnecessary acts of violence nor the "screwing over" of anyone. So why would people try to?

Now, if a post-capitalist society can ensure that such "external factors" are non-issues, is "human nature" really an issue at all?

England Expects
11th October 2006, 12:11
I propose that we eliminate all social factors and ban opinions.

This is clearly the only way for us to achieve equality. We can prevent opinions from being formed by locking everybody in a cell with a treadmill from the age of two. No human contact lest they become corrupted.

If we keep them in their cells for long enough they won't have the opportunity to act as consumers or breed, thus solving our little scarcity problem.

By destroying society we can destroy all social inequalities! When this is achieved never again will a failure feel the stigma associated with being less succesful than other people.

BRING ON THE REVOLUTION COMRADES!

apathy maybe
11th October 2006, 13:12
That is a very good and interesting discussion. I agree with your conclusion fully.

Yes "human nature" exists, but it is an irrelevent concept compared to socialisation. "Human nature" is basically animal nature, it is a very basic thing.

The crap that people point to (greed for example), only exists in two situations, scarcity (hardly the case today in most parts of the over developed world) and societies where it is encouraged.

How many people are going to horde bread if it were free? (See also http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41350).

t_wolves_fan
11th October 2006, 16:22
Yes "human nature" exists, but it is an irrelevent concept compared to socialisation. "Human nature" is basically animal nature, it is a very basic thing.

:lol: Then how can it be eradicated?


How many people are going to horde bread if it were free? (See also http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41350).

Easy: because of scarcity, which cannot be eliminated. Take bread. Only so much wheat will be grown that can produce only so much bread. People will want bread, and they will probably want more than has been produced. Regardless of the fact that it is free, its scarcity will cause people to hoard it.

t_wolves_fan
11th October 2006, 16:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 08:17 AM



If scarcity is (effectively) eradicated (increasingly possible as productive technologies are developed further), scientific knowledge is more widespread (as is necessary for the functioning of any technologically-advanced society... even a capitalist one),

Scarcity will not be eradicated. Every new technology requires some resources to operate.

Take for instance oil. If we replace fossil-fuel based oil with biomass (plants), we can only grow so many plants. There is only so much arable, farmable land in the world. There is only so much water with which to irrigate that land. There are weather patterns which disrupt the productivity of that land.

We have to choose how to use the available land: food or fuel? Once we choose, we have only that much of each. Demand could very well exceed supply, resulting in hoarding. If supply exceeds demand, we've been inefficient.

Do we cut down forests or drain lakes to increase the amount of arable land? Then we endanger wildlife and the ecosystem. There are also subjective opinions that value wild lands over their economic value if developed (take the rain forest in Brazil for instance). Do you pretend that people won't be upset if we determine we have to mine Yellowstone?


and parents are no longer passing shitty values down to their kids (on its way out), plus all the other things I didn't mention, how will people act?

Values are cyclical. Puritanism is followed by rebellion which is followed by puritanism. Look what followed the rebellion of the 1960s and 1970s: Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. Church attendence skyrocketed in the 1990s and continues to rise today.

With no government, do you plan to prohibit people from passing shitty values on to their children?


Good question. I think they'll pursue higher motivations - fulfillment, acceptance, self-actualization.

Which won't happen working on the factory floor. Production will suffer, leading to increased scarcity.

KC
11th October 2006, 17:49
Easy: because of scarcity, which cannot be eliminated. Take bread. Only so much wheat will be grown that can produce only so much bread. People will want bread, and they will probably want more than has been produced. Regardless of the fact that it is free, its scarcity will cause people to hoard it.

Or it could lead to them sharing their bread with others. ;)

t_wolves_fan
11th October 2006, 18:49
Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 11 2006, 02:50 PM

Easy: because of scarcity, which cannot be eliminated. Take bread. Only so much wheat will be grown that can produce only so much bread. People will want bread, and they will probably want more than has been produced. Regardless of the fact that it is free, its scarcity will cause people to hoard it.

Or it could lead to them sharing their bread with others. ;)
If you completely ignore a few thousand years of human history, that might sound reasonable.

I guess.

:huh:

KC
11th October 2006, 20:05
Actually, I'm ignoring a few thousand years of the history of class society.

How the hell do you think indian tribes acted? There was a scarcity on food; do you think that they horded food for themselves or do you think they worked together and shared the food with the entire tribe?

Common sense is a powerful tool. Use it when you respond to that.

t_wolves_fan
11th October 2006, 20:53
Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 11 2006, 05:06 PM
Actually, I'm ignoring a few thousand years of the history of class society.

How the hell do you think indian tribes acted? There was a scarcity on food; do you think that they horded food for themselves or do you think they worked together and shared the food with the entire tribe?

Common sense is a powerful tool. Use it when you respond to that.
They went to war with other tribes to gain more resources.

They were then obliterated by a society that didn't share but yet had vastly superior technology.

Oops.

KC
11th October 2006, 21:13
The point remains that they shared, and that your original assumption was wrong.

t_wolves_fan
11th October 2006, 21:46
Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 11 2006, 06:14 PM
The point remains that they shared, and that your original assumption was wrong.
That "point" will hardly convince anyone that a society based on sharing is desirable.

KC
12th October 2006, 00:09
That was never the ""point"". I was merely refuting your assertion that humans naturally hoard during periods of scarcity.

t_wolves_fan
12th October 2006, 00:10
Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 11 2006, 09:10 PM
That was never the ""point"". I was merely refuting your assertion that humans naturally hoard during periods of scarcity.
Yes, the activities of a few primitive societies really put a dent in the other 99% of human history.

STI
12th October 2006, 10:25
Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
Yes, the activities of a few primitive societies really put a dent in the other 99% of human history.



T, what you lack in thoroughness you nearly make up for in an eagerness to bring about debate, but you seem to have missed the original point with this statement: that it is a mistake to mark the barbaric tendancies of primitive humans (brutal to the extreme, I'm sure we can all agree) as "innate human qualities", since the desperate conditions in which they had no choice but to live gave rise to such behaviour - you or I woul have to do the same if we hoped to survive.

t_wolves_fan
12th October 2006, 19:48
Originally posted by STI+Oct 12 2006, 07:26 AM--> (STI @ Oct 12 2006, 07:26 AM)
t_wolves_fan
Yes, the activities of a few primitive societies really put a dent in the other 99% of human history.



T, what you lack in thoroughness you nearly make up for in an eagerness to bring about debate, but you seem to have missed the original point with this statement: that it is a mistake to mark the barbaric tendancies of primitive humans (brutal to the extreme, I'm sure we can all agree) as "innate human qualities", since the desperate conditions in which they had no choice but to live gave rise to such behaviour - you or I woul have to do the same if we hoped to survive. [/b]
Thanks, I think.

;)


Problem with that is, even with our relative material comfort today, those traits are still with us.

STI
17th October 2006, 08:48
Problem with that is, even with our relative material comfort today, those traits are still with us.

To a less extreme degree than they once did, yes.

But what material circumstances - changeable material circumstances - could be responsible for that fact? It's quite possible that the underlying threat of scarcity that's imposed upon every human being in the world right now: do whatever it takes to gain material assets - even screwing other people over or engaging in labour that offers no intrinsic value - because if you don't, you stand a chance of ending up with only just barely enough to get the things you need and, if you're lucky, maybe a few of the minor things you want.

In a communist society, a classless one, where technology is harnessed and shared and used to produce in abundance and labour is done as a means of self-expression and because of its social necessity, this threat would be removed. How will people turn out? We can't know for sure. Why not try it? Find out and get that knowledge established, so we can use it to improve our condition as a species!

RebelDog
17th October 2006, 09:53
Thanks STI I thought your piece was great and would not be out of place in such a place as The Gaurdian.


Easy: because of scarcity, which cannot be eliminated.

If you know a great deal about human history surely you can see that part of the human success story has been our ability to use tools to produce greater and greater yields from the land. Part of reason that capitalism exists is due to this, people traded the surpluss. We farm so efficiently these days that your ideology feels that buring food to keep market prices up an acceptable undertaking whilst people starve. Scarcity is never going to be eliminated using that logic. If we take another approach and produce socially and to the greatest capacity (something competition prohibits) we can end scarcity easily. I like how when it comes to problems like Saddam Hussein pro-capitalists wax lyrical and mobilise the state. Or when things such as continents hinder trade we can build things like the Panama Canal. But when it comes to something like feeding everyone on the planet a sudden rush of impotence runs through human ability.
You should have said "which cannot be eliminated, under capitalism."

The greed and hoarding that is brought out in human nature during different enviromental conditions would be a dormant nature when scarcity is eliminated. It would have no reason to be prominent. One cannot blame people who are alive in the capitalist epoch for displaying such characteristics. One should equally expect those born post-capitalism, post scarcity, to behave in a sharing, altruistic, caring manner free from the physical, mental and social restraints of capitalism.

STI
18th October 2006, 20:05
Originally posted by The [email protected] 17 2006, 08:53 AM

Easy: because of scarcity, which cannot be eliminated.

If you know a great deal about human history surely you can see that part of the human success story has been our ability to use tools to produce greater and greater yields from the land. Part of reason that capitalism exists is due to this, people traded the surpluss. We farm so efficiently these days that your ideology feels that buring food to keep market prices up an acceptable undertaking whilst people starve. Scarcity is never going to be eliminated using that logic. If we take another approach and produce socially and to the greatest capacity (something competition prohibits) we can end scarcity easily. I like how when it comes to problems like Saddam Hussein pro-capitalists wax lyrical and mobilise the state. Or when things such as continents hinder trade we can build things like the Panama Canal. But when it comes to something like feeding everyone on the planet a sudden rush of impotence runs through human ability.
You should have said "which cannot be eliminated, under capitalism."

The greed and hoarding that is brought out in human nature during different enviromental conditions would be a dormant nature when scarcity is eliminated. It would have no reason to be prominent. One cannot blame people who are alive in the capitalist epoch for displaying such characteristics. One should equally expect those born post-capitalism, post scarcity, to behave in a sharing, altruistic, caring manner free from the physical, mental and social restraints of capitalism.

It's a good thing you brought that up - well-put and more in-depth than I would have been motivated to explore, that's for sure. Let's hope the discussion doesn't end here!


Thanks STI I thought your piece was great and would not be out of place in such a place as The Gaurdian.


:lol: Holy crap! It's nice to hear appreciation, thanks!

I think I'll submit it to the e-zine and anywhere else you think they'd want it ;)