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AlwaysAnarchy
10th October 2006, 05:48
Day for Tibet

On 6 October 1950, 40,000 Chinese troops invaded Tibet and began a brutal occupation which has seen the systematic destruction of Tibet's unique culture, religion and environment, and in which severe human rights abuses are routine.
Each year, Free Tibet Campaign holds an awareness and fundraising day to commemorate the anniversary of the invasion and show Tibet, China, Britain and the world that Tibet has not been forgotten.

AlwaysAnarchy
10th October 2006, 05:48
Here is some more information. Remember these people were not really Communists but Stalinists and authoritarians.


http://www.freetibet.org/info/facts/fact1.html

Invasion and Refugees


China's invasion by 40,000 troops in 1950 was an act of unprovoked aggression. There is no generally accepted legal basis for China's claim of sovereignty.


Ten years later 100,000 Tibetans fled with the Dalai Lama, Tibet's spiritual and temporal ruler.


In 1993 the UN High Commissioner for Refugees handled 3,700 Tibetan cases.


To avoid detection many refugees, who are poorly clothed, are forced to use the 19,000 ft. Nangpa-La pass below Everest. The Nepalese authorities continue to turn refugees over to the Chinese.

Chinese Administration of Tibet

By the 17-Point Agreement of 1951 China undertook not to interfere with Tibet's existing system of government and society, but never kept these promises in eastern Tibet and in 1959 reneged on the treaty altogether.


China has renamed two out of Tibet's three provinces as parts of the Chinese provinces of Qinghai, Gansu, Sichuan and Yunnan, and renamed the remaining province of U'Tsang as Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR).


There is no evidence to support China's claim that TAR is autonomous: all local legislation is subject to approval of the central government in Beijing; all local government is subject to the regional party, which in Tibet has never been run by a Tibetan. Much enforcement of Chinese law is ad hoc and subject to local interpretation due to wording being deliberately ambiguous.

The Human Cost

Reprisals for the 1959 National Uprising alone involved the elimination of 87,000 Tibetans by the Chinese count, according to a Radio Lhasa broadcast of 1 October 1960. Tibetan exiles claim that 430,000 died during the Uprising and the subsequent 15 years of guerrilla warfare.


Some 1.2 million Tibetans are estimated to have been killed by the Chinese since 1950.


The International Commission of Jurists concluded in its reports, 1959 and 1960, that there was a prima facie case of genocide committed by the Chinese upon the Tibetan nation. These reports deal with events before the Cultural Revolution. Chinese Justice: Protest and Prisons


Exile sources estimate that up to 260,000 people died in prisons and labour camps between 1950 and 1984.


Unarmed demonstrators have been shot without warning by Chinese police on five occasions between 1987 and 1989. Amnesty International believes that "at least 200 civilians" were killed by the security forces during demonstrations in this period. There are also reports of detainees being summarily executed.


Some 3,000 people are believed to have been detained for political offences since September 1987, many of them for writing letters, distributing leaflets or talking to foreigners about the Tibetans' right to independence.


The number of political detainees in Lhasa's main prison, Drapchi, is reported to have doubled between 1990 and 1994. The vast majority of political inmates are monks or nuns. A political prisoner in Tibet can now expect an average sentence of 6.5 years.


Over 230 Tibetans were detained for political offences in 1995, a 50% increase on 1994, bringing the total in custody to over 600.


Detailed accounts show that the Chinese conducted a campaign of torture against Tibetan dissidents in prison from March 1989 to May 1990. However, beatings and torture are still regularly used against political detainees and prisoners today. Such prisoners are held in sub-standard conditions, given insufficient food, forbidden to speak, frequently held incommunicado and denied proper medical treatment.


Beatings and torture with electric shock batons are common; prisoners have died from such treatment. In 1992, Palden Gyatso, a monk who had been tortured by the Chinese for over 30 years, bribed prison guards to hand over implements of torture. The weapons, smuggled out of Tibet, were displayed in the west in 1994 and 1995.


Despite China having ratified a number of UN conventions, including those relating to torture, women, children and racial discrimination, the Chinese authorities have been repeatedly violating these conventions in China and Tibet.


Nearly all prisoners arrested for political protest are beaten extensively at the time of arrest and initial detention. Serious physical maltreatment has also been recorded in a significant proportion of cases. In the period 1994-1995, three nuns died shortly after release from custody as a result of ill-treatment and torture in detention.


The Chinese have refused to allow independent observers to attend so-called public trials. Prison sentences are regularly decided before the trial. Fewer than 2% of cases in China are won by the defence.

Control of Education

Chinese replaced Tibetan as the official language. Despite official pronouncements, there has been no practical change in this policy. Without an adequate command of Chinese, Tibetans find it difficult to get work in the state sector.


Secondary school children are taught all classes in Chinese. Although English is a requirement for most university courses, Tibetan school children cannot learn English unless they forfeit study of their own language. Many children are sent away to China for education, usually for a period of seven years.


Since 1994, the Chinese have strengthened their drive to re-educate young Tibetans about their cultural past at all levels of Tibetan education. They use a distorted history programme which omits reference to an independent Tibet.


At school, no unrehearsed discussion of Tibetan cultural, religious and social issues is allowed. Party positions must actively be upheld. Chinese culture is emphatically promoted.

Religious Intolerance

Religious practice was forcibly suppressed until 1979, and up to 6,000 monasteries and shrines were destroyed.


The 1982 Constitution of the People's Republic of China guarantees freedom of religious belief, but China seeks to restrict the numbers of monks and nuns entering monasteries. The restrictions prevent children under 18 from joining monasteries.


After serving arbitrary sentences imposed for pro-independence activities, nuns and monks released from prison are frequently banned from rejoining their nunneries.


New guidelines drawn up in 1994 instigated a policy of renewed religious suppression and attempts to discredit the religious authority of the Dalai Lama.


In 1995 the Chinese authorities rejected the child recognised by the Dalai Lama as the rebirth of the Panchen Lama, and installed their own candidate.

Chinese Immigrants Flood Tibet

Beijing has admitted a policy of deliberately encouraging Chinese to settle on a long-term basis in Tibet.


The influx of Chinese nationals has destabilised the economy. Forced agricultural modernisations led to extensive crop failures and Tibet's first recorded famine (1960-1962), in which 340,000 Tibetans died. Tibetan farms and grazing lands have been confiscated and incorporated into collectivised and communal farms.


Resettlement of Chinese migrants has placed Tibetans in the minority in many areas, including Lhasa, causing chronic unemployment among Tibetans.


Official figures put the number of non-Tibetans in the TAR at 79,000. Independent research puts the figure at 250,000 to 300,000, and for the whole of Tibet 5 to 5.5 million Chinese to 4.5 million Tibetans. In Kham and Amdo the Chinese outnumber Tibetans many times over.

(for more on Population Transfer see Tibet Facts No.2)

Economic Development Plans

Beijing wants to see 10% economic growth per year from the Tibetan region. New wealth is being channelled into Chinese hands as shown by the 1994 announcement of a railway for Tibet. The rail project will speed both the influx of Chinese migrants as well as the extraction of Tibet's mineral reserves.


According to the TAR Economic Planning Commission's plan, the main thrust of China's economic activities in Tibet in the 1990s will be 'the exploitation of mineral resources'. Mining and other mineral extraction is the largest economic activity in both U'Tsang and Amdo.


Chinese traders are favoured by lower tax assessments and the dominant position of Chinese in government administration. Chinese officials are paid various bonuses for working in Tibet.


China is pushing to incorporate Tibet into its new market economy by boosting agricultural output. Traditional barley farming, suited to the climate, is diminishing as new crops are introduced (sometimes with foreign aid backing).

The Environment and the Military

Estimates of deforestation vary, but most reckon that at least half Tibet's natural forest cover has gone since the Chinese occupation. An extensive road-building programme has been opening up the previously inaccessible areas of forest. Tourists have seen up to 60 trucks per hour loaded with timber leaving Tibet - proof of deforestation on a large scale, in contravention of UN Resolution 1803 (XVII) 1962, which establishes the right of peoples to permanent sovereignty over their natural resources.


The Indian Government reports that three nuclear missile sites, and an estimated 300,000 troops are stationed on Tibetan territory.


Throughout the 1960s and 1970s the Chinese operated a large nuclear weapons research centre at the Ninth academy in Haibai prefecture, Qinghai province.


China has admitted to dumping nuclear waste on the Tibetan plateau. There is a 20 km2 dump for radioactive pollutants near Lake Kokonor, the largest lake on the Tibetan plateau.

which doctor
10th October 2006, 05:54
The problem with the Free Tibet movement is that it really doesn't want to "free Tibet", it wants to put it back in the hands of it's equally ruthless government, a strict theocracy. I want to free the people of Tibet from authoritarianism, which also means I want no part in the "Free Tibet Movement."

Severian
10th October 2006, 10:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 08:49 PM
There is no generally accepted legal basis for China's claim of sovereignty.
The opposite is true: neither the UN nor most governments have ever disputed China's claim to sovereignty over Tibet. Few, if any, have ever recognized Tibet as independent. Even Washington accepts that Tibet is part of China, whatever complaints they may make otherwise.

This isn't a hugely important point; it's just that the first claim in this article is false. Almost all the others are false or misleading as well. Few people lie more than the exiled serfowning theocrats behind the "Free Tibet" campaign.

For why their overall picture is false and their campaign reactionary, I recommend this article (http://www.seeingred.com/Copy/3.1_freetibet.html) by yours truly.

A couple other falsehoods from the article posted here:


By the 17-Point Agreement of 1951 China undertook not to interfere with Tibet's existing system of government and society, but never kept these promises in eastern Tibet and in 1959 reneged on the treaty altogether.

That "existing system of government and society" was brutally exploitive feudalism; most of Tibet's population were serfs. So the crime was making those promises, not breaking them.

Fortunately, eastern Tibet was never covered by the 17-point agreement, since it was never ruled by the Dalai Lama. And after the nobility and religious hierarchy of central Tibet organized an uprising against PRC rule, their serfs were encouraged to divide their land too.


Some 1.2 million Tibetans are estimated to have been killed by the Chinese since 1950.

Estimated only by the Dalai Lama's government-in-exile. They offer no evidence to support this claim.

I did some looking around, once, to try to determine if this number is accurate. I looked on various human-rights and anti-genocide websites - they do not mention this number. Neither does the Tibet Information Network, as far as I can tell. Or Tibetan exile and historian Tsering Shakya, in his book The Dragon in the Land of Snows. Maybe they're all a little embarassed at this exaggerated accusation.

According to Encarta Encyclopedia: "Experts believe that before Chinese Communists began controlling Tibet in the 1950s, the region’s population was declining due to illness, poor pre- and postnatal care, and a sizeable proportion of men becoming celibate monks. It is estimated, however, that the population has nearly doubled since that time, as a result of better health care, increased availability of food, and relative political stability."

China's population-control policies are applied more loosely for Tibetans and other non-Han Chinese nationalities. Encarta Encyclopedia again: "However, women who belong to one of China's national minorities may not face the same level of pressure. In general, government policies allow non-Han peoples more cultural independence and permit them to have larger families." This is one reason that the non-Han Chinese nationalities are a growing part of China's population, today approaching 10%. Not exactly genocide.

Oh, and the ICJ was a CIA-financed Cold War propaganda group. Their report has been shown to be a tissue of lies and unsupported allegations.


Secondary school children are taught all classes in Chinese. Although English is a requirement for most university courses, Tibetan school children cannot learn English unless they forfeit study of their own language. Many children are sent away to China for education, usually for a period of seven years.

Profoundly hypocritical. Before 1959, most Tibetan children didn't go to school at all. The Dalai Lama's schools in exile are run entirely in English.

And this picture of Chinese policy on Tibetan language and culture is distorted. For a more accurate look: Off the Human Rights Watch webpage. (http://www.hrw.org/pubweb/sperlingcont.html)

I could go on. But all these lies by the exiled serfowners are actually kinda beside the point.

Because the larger problem is their masters in Washington, London, etc.


Each year, Free Tibet Campaign holds an awareness and fundraising day to commemorate the anniversary of the invasion and show Tibet, China, Britain and the world that Tibet has not been forgotten.

What are you demanding of Britain? And, by extension, of the other countries where people are campaigning to "Free Tibet"?

The campaign typically demands economic sanctions against China. Economic warfare is a type of intervenion against China - a Third World country which had a powerful revolution. That revolution threw off the domination of Washington, Tokyo, and other centers of finance capital which exploit the whole world - including Chinese working people today.

Some of the progressive gains of that revolution still remain intact. Washington is trying to reverse that, constantly pressing for "freer markets" and a "rule of law" that would make even better conditions for foreign capital to exploit Chinese labor and natural resources.

To demand these bloodsuckers intervene to bring "freedom" to Tibet or anywhere else - the only kind of freedom they'll bring is the freedom to starve.

And economic sanctions aren't automatically the end of it, either. Time and time again, economic warfare leads to shooting warfare.

When the Bush administration took office, it was largely focused on China as a "strategic competitor", aka potential adversary. 9/11 has postponed that and shifted priorities...but not eliminated the potential for conflict.

And anytime any ruling class gears up for war, it always hollers about the atrocities committed by its adversaries. Why do that work for them?

Revolutionaries focus our fire on our own bosses first and most of all. Their puppet regimes and allies, secondarily.

And while it's important to be politically clear on other anti-working-class regimes and not fall into thinking "the enemy of my enemy" is automatically our friend.......we don't campaign against our oppressor's adversaries, either.

What would that accomplish? Public opinion here won't directly affect what China does in Tibet, y'know. It only affects what governments here do....strengthening their hands for hostile moves against China.

Raj Radical
10th October 2006, 10:46
China is imperialist scum.


What else is new?

bcbm
10th October 2006, 11:31
Originally posted by Raj [email protected] 10 2006, 01:47 AM
China is imperialist scum.


What else is new?
Yeah, long live feudal theocracies! :rolleyes:

Good post Sev.

Comrade Marcel
10th October 2006, 11:54
I've hosted study groups about this in the past.

The readings can be found here:

http://individual.utoronto.ca/mrodden/study/tibet.htm

the lalkar articles are the same location, just change the domain to lalkar.org

Raj Radical
10th October 2006, 23:42
Originally posted by black banner black gun+Oct 10 2006, 08:32 AM--> (black banner black gun @ Oct 10 2006, 08:32 AM)
Raj [email protected] 10 2006, 01:47 AM
China is imperialist scum.


What else is new?
Yeah, long live feudal theocracies! :rolleyes:

Good post Sev. [/b]
I would take a buddhist theocracy over a brutal scum fucking imperialist occupation.

China brought "socialism" to Tibet the same way that capitalists bring "civilization" to the 3rd world.

Comrade Marcel
10th October 2006, 23:48
I'm sure 95% of Tibet's population would thoroughly disagree with you.

And calling Maoist China "imperialist" is just fucking stupid. A country that just came out of imperialist occupation somehow becomes imperialist when they liberate a province? They weren't even capitalist yet, but somehow imperialist? Read a book.

violencia.Proletariat
10th October 2006, 23:52
Originally posted by Raj Radical+Oct 10 2006, 04:43 PM--> (Raj Radical @ Oct 10 2006, 04:43 PM)
Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 10 2006, 08:32 AM

Raj [email protected] 10 2006, 01:47 AM
China is imperialist scum.


What else is new?
Yeah, long live feudal theocracies! :rolleyes:

Good post Sev.
I would take a buddhist theocracy over a brutal scum fucking imperialist occupation.

China brought "socialism" to Tibet the same way that capitalists bring "civilization" to the 3rd world. [/b]
China brought the modern world to Tibet. If you'd rather live in the dalai lamas feudalistic shithole then you are clearly a MORON. You are playing the "fuck the imperialist card" but you yourself are not analyzing the situation and seeing that the Dalai Lama and his statistics are bullshit.

Leo
10th October 2006, 23:56
systematic destruction of Tibet's unique...religion

This thread is a joke <_<

*shakes his head and goes to sleep*

Raj Radical
11th October 2006, 00:05
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 10 2006, 08:49 PM
I&#39;m sure 95% of Tibet&#39;s population would thoroughly disagree with you.

And calling Maoist China "imperialist" is just fucking stupid. A country that just came out of imperialist occupation somehow becomes imperialist when they liberate a province? They weren&#39;t even capitalist yet, but somehow imperialist? Read a book.
Claiming to be "Communist" does not make a state war-machine or Mao himself (personality cult aside) infalliable to critisism.

Occupation is occupation and imperialism is imperialism - it doesnt matter if its a capitalist or a PRC soldier holding the gun against your head.

Tell me this, did "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" change the situation at all in Tibet?

violencia.Proletariat
11th October 2006, 00:07
Can you tell to us what resources Tibet has that benefits China enough to keep them there all this time?

Wanted Man
11th October 2006, 00:11
Uh-oh, the friends of the Dalai Lama theocracy are assembling. What&#39;s next? "Defend the Falun Gong from prosecution by the evil Stalinists"? :lol:

Raj Radical
11th October 2006, 00:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 09:08 PM
Can you tell to us what resources Tibet has that benefits China enough to keep them there all this time?
So you are telling me that a mixed economic capitalist country which suffers one of the most distinct class divisions in the world has stayed in Tibet all these years to spread socialism or modern civilization?

which doctor
11th October 2006, 00:21
I prefer not to choose between one authoritarian government and another authoritarian government.

Honggweilo
11th October 2006, 00:28
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 09:12 PM
Uh-oh, the friends of the Dalai Lama theocracy are assembling. What&#39;s next? "Defend the Falun Gong from prosecution by the evil Stalinists"? :lol:
then they can join the lonely falun gonger on my frontporch (at the peacepalace in the hague) who&#39;s been protesting Jiang Zemin&#39;s evil communist and brutal repression of there homophobic , self igniting, self genocidal pro capitalist psychocult. He could use the company :lol:, he&#39;s so ronry :rolleyes: . But hell, i gotta give, he is determent.

Anyway this reminds me of a song from the Manics;


We love to kiss the dalai lama&#39;s ass, because is such a holy man
Free to eat and buy anything, free to fuck from Paris to Beijing.

violencia.Proletariat
11th October 2006, 00:41
Originally posted by Raj Radical+Oct 10 2006, 05:16 PM--> (Raj Radical @ Oct 10 2006, 05:16 PM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 09:08 PM
Can you tell to us what resources Tibet has that benefits China enough to keep them there all this time?
So you are telling me that a mixed economic capitalist country which suffers one of the most distinct class divisions in the world has stayed in Tibet all these years to spread socialism or modern civilization? [/b]
I&#39;m trying to figure out what economic motive there is to be in Tibet as you call it imperialism. Maybe China actually considers Tibet a part of the country. I mean, they aren&#39;t marketing mountains these days are they?

Enragé
11th October 2006, 01:34
as much as i hate those maoists who arent even maoist anymore but borderline-free market capitalist

i&#39;d rather live under them than some fucked up theocratic serf owning *****es

Janus
11th October 2006, 06:27
Religious Intolerance

Religious practice was forcibly suppressed until 1979, and up to 6,000 monasteries and shrines were destroyed.


The 1982 Constitution of the People&#39;s Republic of China guarantees freedom of religious belief, but China seeks to restrict the numbers of monks and nuns entering monasteries. The restrictions prevent children under 18 from joining monasteries.


After serving arbitrary sentences imposed for pro-independence activities, nuns and monks released from prison are frequently banned from rejoining their nunneries.


New guidelines drawn up in 1994 instigated a policy of renewed religious suppression and attempts to discredit the religious authority of the Dalai Lama.


In 1995 the Chinese authorities rejected the child recognised by the Dalai Lama as the rebirth of the Panchen Lama, and installed their own candidate.

Yes, and the lama princes were so tolerant and benevolent. :rolleyes:



Can you tell to us what resources Tibet has that benefits China enough to keep them there all this time?
Lamas and land.

China&#39;s decision to take over has more to do with the history between Tibet and China than anything else.

Severian
11th October 2006, 07:14
Originally posted by Raj Radical+Oct 10 2006, 03:16 PM--> (Raj Radical @ Oct 10 2006, 03:16 PM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 09:08 PM
Can you tell to us what resources Tibet has that benefits China enough to keep them there all this time?
So you are telling me that a mixed economic capitalist country which suffers one of the most distinct class divisions in the world has stayed in Tibet all these years to spread socialism or modern civilization? [/b]
One thing&#39;s for sure: the Chinese government&#39;s spending a lot more money than it gains from Tibet. So economic motives are pretty much out.

I think partly they have strategic military motives for being there; if they&#39;d left the theocracy in power it certainly woulda become a base for U.S.-sponsored counterrevolution. There remain certain military considerations today; the Himalayas are too good a line of defense to readily give up.

And partly it&#39;s a matter of ideology and prestige - Chinese nationalist ideology going back to the Kuomintang asserts that Tibet has always been part of China. In contrast to earlier Chinese governments which were powerless to stop the dismemberment and humiliation of China by imperialism, the PRC claims credit for a united and independent China.

There&#39;s a lot of other non-Han nationalities in China - some of them a lot more rebellious than the Tibetans. And inhabiting more important areas. So that&#39;s another issue, the "secession" of one region would encourage others.

Lemme make it clear I&#39;m not in the business of PR for China&#39;s nationality policy; I support self-determination, everywhere.

My point here was to oppose a campaign led by exiled serfowners...which serves the interests of Washington and other advanced capitalist powers.

****


as much as i hate those maoists who arent even maoist anymore but borderline-free market capitalist

i&#39;d rather live under them than some fucked up theocratic serf owning *****es

Well, clearly conditions of life have improved in Tibet, as I pointed out.

But y&#39;know, that&#39;s really not the larger point; nobody is going to successfully restore feudalism in Tibet.

The larger problem is Washington...I&#39;m kinda disappointed that nobody&#39;s commented on that part of my earlier post.

Chicom
11th October 2006, 07:30
OLD TIBET EXPOSED&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
The Last "Dark Ages"

Rich and beautiful Europe experienced a period known as the "Dark Ages" when barbaric methods of torture were used and the inhuman rule that sea-owners had the right to sleep with a female serf before she married her husband was enforced . However similar practices continued to exist in old Tibet for another400 years.

Before 1959, Tibet had long been a society of feudal serfdom under the despotic political- religious rule of lamas and nobles. The masses of serfs in Ti- bet did not even possess fundamental rights. Serf-owners principally local administrative officials nobles and upper- ranking lamas, accounted for less than 5 percent of Tibet&#39;s population but they owned all of Tibet&#39;s farmlands pastures, forests, mountains and rivers as well as most of the livestock. The serfs making up more than 90 percent of Tibet&#39;s population lived no better than the slaves in the plantations in the southern states of America.

The serf-owners could sell or transfer their serfs, present them as gifts, or use them as mortgages payments for debts. They could even ex- change them,molest them or maltreat them. When two serfs got married, the husband and wife still belonged to different owners and their children were fated to be serfs from the moment they were born.

Read more here
http://www.tibet-china.org/serie_book/Engl...et/rbch2_at.htm (http://www.tibet-china.org/serie_book/English/approaching_tibet/rbch2_at.htm)

BEFORE Communism (imperialism)
http://www.humanrights.cn/zt/magazine/2004020048594429.htm
http://www.humanrights.cn/zt/magazine/pic/030704.jpg

Communism
http://www.zytzb.org.cn/xizhang/tp/tg-29.jpg
Peasants from Doilungdeqen presenting auspicioous hada scarves to the portrait of chairman Mao Zedong as a token of gratitude for the cpc and the Central Government.(1960)

http://www.zytzb.org.cn/xizhang/tp/tg-22.jpg
Galsang Wangmo (left), an ex-serf from Namgang Township, Doilungdeqen County, pouring out the bitterness she has suffered under the feudal serfdom. (1959)

http://www.zytzb.org.cn/xizhang/tp/tg-24.jpg
Emancipated serfs and slaves burning bonds that testify usury borrowed which belonged to their former exploitative and suppressive serf owners.(1959)

http://www.zytzb.org.cn/xizhang/tp/tg-215.jpg
Zhaxi Yangdui, an ex-serf from Quxu County, was for the first time in his life able to enjoy political rigats. Picture shows he was casting his first vote for the Township People�s Congress delegates. (1960)

http://www.zytzb.org.cn/xizhang/tp/tg-216.jpg
Delegates to the First People�s Congress of the Tibet Autonomous Region came from farming, pastoral and urban areas.Most of them were emancipated serfs and slaves. (1965)

http://www.zytzb.org.cn/xizhang/tp/tg-210.jpg
IN nyichi Township County, dsinzin, an ex-serf, was given a horse and of production.(1960)

http://www.zytzb.org.cn/xizhang/tp/tg-28.jpg
In addition to land, these ex-serfs and slaves received domestic animals and other materials.



Tibet was truly a evil place before it was liberated by Chairman Mao and the people of China.

altzarina
11th October 2006, 21:13
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 10 2006, 08:49 PM
I&#39;m sure 95% of Tibet&#39;s population would thoroughly disagree with you.


I am not sure how far that is true, I have lots of Tibetan friends and they vehemently oppose the Chinese rule and are active in lots of free Tibet student organisations. Probably this is a one sided view, but from what they have told me and I have read from the material they have given me - China since its invasion has killed more than 1.2 million tibetans, more than 6000 monastries have been destroyed, tibet&#39;s natural resources are irreversibly destroyed, there have been evidences that suggest that tibet is being used for dumping of nuclear wastes and thousands of tibetans are still imprisoned for exercising their fundamental rights.

Every Tibetan I know is inherently critical and ascerbic about the Chinese, they hate them with their guts. So I really dont think you are right about 95% of them being pro chinese.


:)

Severian
12th October 2006, 08:15
Originally posted by altzarina+Oct 11 2006, 12:14 PM--> (altzarina @ Oct 11 2006, 12:14 PM)
Comrade [email protected] 10 2006, 08:49 PM
I&#39;m sure 95% of Tibet&#39;s population would thoroughly disagree with you.
I am not sure how far that is true, I have lots of Tibetan friends and they vehemently oppose the Chinese rule and are active in lots of free Tibet student organisations. [/b]
The opinions of exiles may not be the opinions of those who stayed.

Especially when its the former elite who left. Serfs and serfowners are likely to have different opinions on the abolition of serfdom.

And of course people who&#39;ve been gone for many years will be out of touch with conditions in Tibet.


Probably this is a one sided view, but from what they have told me and I have read from the material they have given me - China since its invasion has killed more than 1.2 million tibetans, .....

You might want to read my first post in the thread. I refute that claim along with some others.

Xiao Banfa
14th October 2006, 04:32
China brought the modern world to Tibet. If you&#39;d rather live in the dalai lamas feudalistic shithole then you are clearly a MORON. You are playing the "fuck the imperialist card" but you yourself are not analyzing the situation and seeing that the Dalai Lama and his statistics are bullshit.

Represent.

which doctor
14th October 2006, 04:35
Originally posted by Tino [email protected] 13 2006, 08:33 PM

China brought the modern world to Tibet. If you&#39;d rather live in the dalai lamas feudalistic shithole then you are clearly a MORON. You are playing the "fuck the imperialist card" but you yourself are not analyzing the situation and seeing that the Dalai Lama and his statistics are bullshit.

Represent.
Yeah, and the capitalism and imperialism brought the first world to the Native Americans.

GO CAPITALISM GO IMPERIALISM

Xiao Banfa
14th October 2006, 04:49
Competely different situation.

You got it all wrong.

Hiero
14th October 2006, 05:57
One very important factor that people are missing is that TIBET brought socialism to Tibet. The PRC aided the Tibeten revolutionaries in their overthrow of feudalism. Are you that stupid to claim peasants and serfs have no interest in overthrowing feudalism?

Severian
14th October 2006, 07:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 07:36 PM
Yeah, and the capitalism and imperialism brought the first world to the Native Americans.
Repost (which still took more work than FoB&#39;s ignorant comment)
The comparison of Tibet to American Indians could not be more off the mark. A comparison to medieval Europe would be more accurate.

(Tibet is an interesting illustration of the Marxist idea that a society&#39;s economic base produces its political superstructure; Both medieval Europe and pre-1959 Tibet had similar serfdom-based economies and, through parallel evolution, similar political systems...except that Tibet&#39;s lamas and abbots had even more political power than Europe&#39;s popes and bishops. Who had a lot, and the Church was the biggest landowner.)

American Indian societies could mostly be described as primitive communist. Before the European settlers landed, there was not one acre of land from sea to shining sea that was private property

(Perhaps the Aztec, Inca, or Maya were partial exceptions, but I don&#39;t think even they were that far enough down the road to class-divided society to have private property in land.)

This basically explains the irreconcilable nature of the conflict between the American Indians and rising American capitalism.

These free people would not submit to slavery or any other form of exploitation, so they had to be wiped out.

Tibet&#39;s nomads were herders, not hunters and gatherers. There were considerable class divisions among them, and they owed taxes and feudal duties to monasteries, lords, and government in exchange for the use of pasture land.
Not much like the Oglala or Cheyenne.

As to Chinese policy? In my opinion, there is not much of a parallel. Nothing the Chinese government has done in Tibet is anywhere near as bad as the extermination of Native Americans by the U.S. and by European colonialism.

As I mentioned earlier with reference to Encarta Encyclopedia, the number of Tibetans has grown tremendously under Chinese rule. This would seem to disprove the (unsupported) charges of physical genocide. See also the population figures in the Tibet FAQ written by "Free Tibet" people. (http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/tibetfaq.htm)

In contrast, Native Americans were exterminated under the slogan, "the only good Indian is a dead Indian." Their numbers decreased tremendously between 1600 and 1900.

Tibetan peasants took posession and use of the land in 1959; thanks to nationalization of land ownership it cannot be bought up or foreclosed on. Settlers from elsewhere in the PRC mostly live in the cities.

In contrast, American Indians&#39; communally owned lands became the property of
white settlers, railroad and mining companies, or the US government. Efforts to get back a small part of these lands are being resisted today. American Indians remain the poorest group in the US today.

The more enlightened and liberal policy towards Native Americans was &#39;assimilationism&#39; - which advocated cultural rather than physical genocide, separating the Indians from their language, culture, religion, and especially convincing them to divide their lands into privately owned plots (which had the effect of letting land speculators buy them up.)

The assimilationists&#39; methods included kidnapping Indian children into boarding schools where Indian languages were strictly forbidden.

In contrast, China supports Tibetan-language schools and literature. As the Human Rights Watch page I posted earlier in this thread (http://www.hrw.org/pubweb/sperlingcont.html) shows, the charge of &#39;cultural genocide&#39; against China is false.

This ain&#39;t an attempt to defend everything China has done in Tibet - much of that is indefensible. But the more exaggerated accusations should be opposed, in the name of truth and factual accuracy if nothing else.

In any case, those of us who live in the United States should focus primarily on opposing the crimes of our "own" government - anything else is pointless and hypocritical.

****

Now that I&#39;ve disposed of the false parallel, lemme point out the spread of capitalism across the North American continent was progressive and did bring much of value. Only the brutal methods of the capitalist class should have been opposed, and were opposed by many people. As Marx put it, capitalism came in to the world "dripping with blood from every pore"; nevertheless it was a progressive system.

Despite everything said by primitivists and people with a noble savage complex.

AlwaysAnarchy
17th October 2006, 03:44
Originally posted by FoB+Oct 14 2006, 01:36 AM--> (FoB @ Oct 14 2006, 01:36 AM)
Tino [email protected] 13 2006, 08:33 PM

China brought the modern world to Tibet. If you&#39;d rather live in the dalai lamas feudalistic shithole then you are clearly a MORON. You are playing the "fuck the imperialist card" but you yourself are not analyzing the situation and seeing that the Dalai Lama and his statistics are bullshit.

Represent.
Yeah, and the capitalism and imperialism brought the first world to the Native Americans.

GO CAPITALISM GO IMPERIALISM [/b]
:lol: :lol:

I agree 110%&#33; And I was thinking the same thing&#33;

These excuses that these people are using are the SAME exact excuses that colonizers and imperialists of every first world country has used to justify the conquest of a third world country: "bring civilization to barbarians" "Education the filthy monkey tribes" "bring Christianity to the brutes." etc etc etc

Wake up everyone&#33; This is the 21st century&#33; If Tibetans or anyone else wants to live in ways that seem "different" or even "backward" to us , then so fucking what?&#33;?&#33; It&#39;s THEIR country man&#33; Let them decide what&#39;s what and how to do things. They don&#39;t need some big daddy imperialist mega power coming in and invading and telling them what to do, how to live, how to advance and all that crap. Let the people decide.

No excuse for the mass killings and deaths. None.

AlwaysAnarchy
17th October 2006, 03:46
Originally posted by Raj Radical+Oct 10 2006, 08:43 PM--> (Raj Radical @ Oct 10 2006, 08:43 PM)
Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 10 2006, 08:32 AM

Raj [email protected] 10 2006, 01:47 AM
China is imperialist scum.


What else is new?
Yeah, long live feudal theocracies&#33; :rolleyes:

Good post Sev.
I would take a buddhist theocracy over a brutal scum fucking imperialist occupation.

China brought "socialism" to Tibet the same way that capitalists bring "civilization" to the 3rd world. [/b]
Amen to Raj Radical and Chimx&#33;&#33;&#33; :wub: :wub: :wub:

redhmong
17th October 2006, 04:25
I think Dalai Lama give you much money to make such bored post like this. You know what to Tibet of China? You just know you can get a large amount of money from Dalai Lama, if you say something distorted.

You must go to Tibet to know the truth. To know the thoughts and opinions of Tibetans, but not the story that the person to advocate the independence of Tibet told you.

You like a contemptible scoundrel.
Damn&#33;

violencia.Proletariat
17th October 2006, 05:17
These excuses that these people are using are the SAME exact excuses that colonizers and imperialists of every first world country has used to justify the conquest of a third world country:

China is not a first world country. It was especially not a first world country when it took over tibet.


"bring civilization to barbarians"

Overthrowing fuedalism is a progressive step towards the liberation of people. If you disagree with this you should be restricted.

Barbarism has nothing to do with this topic.


"Education the filthy monkey tribes"

You are just using anything to get people on your side eh? Please show me one example of where anyone in this thread has demeaned the Tibetan people.


"bring Christianity to the brutes." etc etc etc

Shut the fuck up you moron. The majority of people here are atheist/non religious. This claim is outright ignorant and logically comes from a pacifist.

Again I ask you to show me evidence where someone claims that China&#39;s liberation of Tibet from fuedalism was done on the behalf of christianity.


If Tibetans or anyone else wants to live in ways that seem "different" or even "backward" to us , then so fucking what?&#33;?&#33; It&#39;s THEIR country man&#33;

As others have pointed out, China did not go into Tibet unwelcome.


No excuse for the mass killings and deaths. None.

What mass killings and death? Would you care to provide some evidence. You claim to be a pacifist yet you support godsucking violnet bastards (the dalai lama).

Orange Juche
17th October 2006, 18:54
Originally posted by Raj [email protected] 10 2006, 06:42 PM
I would take a buddhist theocracy over a brutal scum fucking imperialist occupation.

China brought "socialism" to Tibet the same way that capitalists bring "civilization" to the 3rd world.
Conditions actually improved when China took over.

The Chinese rule is filled with oppression and douchebaggery, no doubt, but the people were actually better off after China took over.

Hiero
18th October 2006, 09:31
I agree 110%&#33; And I was thinking the same thing&#33;

Did you not read Severian&#39;s post?

The colonialist wanted to eliminate indigenous people, they often thought they would die out by various means. In China, the PRC aided the Tibetan revolutionaries. That&#39;s what you&#39;re forgetting. The Tibetan peasants wanted socialism, they were active in the ovethrow of feudalism. It wasn&#39;t the case of Han Chinese colonialising Tibet. It has only been the last 20 years that large numbers of Han Chinese have moved into the area.

Leo
18th October 2006, 16:19
Wake up everyone&#33; This is the 21st century&#33; If Tibetans or anyone else wants to live in ways that seem "different" or even "backward" to us , then so fucking what?&#33;?&#33; It&#39;s THEIR country man&#33;

Uh, no. It was Dalai Lama and the ruthless elite classes country then and it is the Chinese CP&#39;s country now. It will always be some ruling classes country until a proletairian revolution. The idea of national liberation is bullshit.

AlwaysAnarchy
19th October 2006, 03:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 04:17 AM
Again I ask you to show me evidence where someone claims that China&#39;s liberation of Tibet from fuedalism was done on the behalf of christianity.


If Tibetans or anyone else wants to live in ways that seem "different" or even "backward" to us , then so fucking what?&#33;?&#33; It&#39;s THEIR country man&#33;

As others have pointed out, China did not go into Tibet unwelcome.
No no no, I was using those quotes that the first world imperialist countries used as justification, I wasn&#39;t saying that those particular reasons were being used here I was just comparing it to them.

For example, some people here say "The Chinese overthrew feudalism, established socialism" or "The Chinese invasion helped Tibet progress" and I am comparing it to statements made by every imperalist conquering nation that wanted to bring civilization, Christianity, all the good things in the world blah blah blah

In fact, we see those same excuses today&#33; Don&#39;t you see how these arguments for Chinese imperialism echo very closely the arguments made by reactionaries for the invasion of Afghanistan? Remember Christopher Hithenhs infamouse comment? "We&#39;re going to bomb them OUT of the stone age"?? He was saying that the US bombing would be progress, but my argument and the argument of libertarians is: even IF it resulted in some progress, it does not justify the use invasion and military force.

As for not going into China unwelcome, I find that hard to believe. Virtually all the Tibetan exiles are strongly anti Chinese, many thousands if not over a million died under Chinese occuption, the Dalai Lama fled, and many Tibetans continue to want to leave - that hardly makes me think the invasion was "unwelcome"

And again, isn&#39;t that what EVERY CONQUERING COUNTRY SAYS abou the country they just invaded??? I mean jeez, for every US imperialist action we (rightly) denounce, I could show you polls or some stupid statement made by the US government saying how they were bring us "sweets and flowers" and what not.

AlwaysAnarchy
19th October 2006, 03:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 04:17 AM
What mass killings and death? Would you care to provide some evidence. You claim to be a pacifist yet you support godsucking violnet bastards (the dalai lama).
Sure. It&#39;s pretty common knowledge I think but here it goes:

From Wikipedia:


Tibetan exiles generally say that the number that have died in the Great Leap Forward, of violence, or other unnatural causes since 1950 is approximately 1.2 million, which the Chinese Communist Party denies. According to Patrick French, the estimate is not reliable because the Tibetans were not able to process the data well enough to produce a credible total. There were, however, many casualties, perhaps as many as 400,000. This figure is extrapolated from a calculation Warren W. Smith made from census reports of Tibet which show 200,000 "missing" from Tibet.[21][22] Even The Black Book of Communism expresses doubt at the 1.2 million figure, but does note that according to Chinese census the total population of ethnic Tibetans in the PRC was 2.8 million in 1953, but only 2.5 million in 1964. It puts forward a figure of 800,000 deaths and alleges that as many as 10% of Tibetans were interned, with few survivors.[23] Chinese demographers have estimated that 90,000 of the 300,000 "missing" Tibetans fled the region.[24]

And this is from a book I"m currently reading, "Blessing of the Wind - A History of Tibetan Buddhism"


In 1959 came the invasion by the Chinese. During this invasion, the Chinese destroyed six thousand monasteries; tortured, raped, and killed more than a million Tibetans (mostly monks and nuns) and otherwise terrorized the population into submission under the auspices of "liberating" Tibet

And as for the so called 14 points:

http://www.tibet.com/WhitePaper/white2.html


Treaties in international law are binding on the countries signing them, unless they are imposed by force or a country is coerced into signing the agreement by the threat of force. This is reflected in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, which is regarded as a reflection of customary international law. The People&#39;s Republic of China (PRC) feels strongly about this principle, particularly as it applies to treaties and other agreements China was pressured to sign by Western powers at a time when China was weak. The PRC is particularly adamant that such "unequal" treaties and other agreements cannot be valid, no matter who signed them or for what reasons.

After the military invasion of Tibet had started and the small Tibetan army was defeated, the PRC imposed a treaty on the Tibetan Government under the terms of which Tibet was declared to be a part of China, albeit enjoying a large degree of autonomy. In the White Paper, China claims this treaty was entered into entirely voluntarily by the Tibetan Government, and that the Dalai Lama, his Government and the Tibetan people as a whole welcomed it. The facts show a very different story, leading to the conclusion that the so-called "17 Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet" was never validly concluded and was rejected by Tibetans. The Dalai Lama stated Tibetan Prime Minister Lukhangwa as having told Chinese General Zhang Jin-wu in 1952:


It was absurd to refer to the terms of the Seventeen-Point Agreement. Our people did not accept the agreement and the Chinese themselves had repeatedly broken the terms of it. Their army was still in occupation of eastern Tibet; the area had not been returned to the government of Tibet, as it should have been. [My Land and My People, Dalai Lama, New York, Fourth Edition, 1992, p.95]


And for the record - No I don&#39;t support the Dalai Lama, however I most strongly denounce the Chinese invasion of Tibet, just like I denounce the US invasion of feudal regimes in Afghanistan while not supporting the Taliban.

Severian
23rd October 2006, 05:42
Looks like some posts in this thread were lost in the board crash. Including a couple long ones by me. Here&#39;s another response, and this time I saved it.


Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2006 08:49 pm
For example, some people here say "The Chinese overthrew feudalism, established socialism" or "The Chinese invasion helped Tibet progress" and I am comparing it to statements made by every imperalist conquering nation that wanted to bring civilization, Christianity, all the good things in the world blah blah blah
And? Because it&#39;s sometimes false that the capitalists are bringing progress, therefore it&#39;s automatically false that the Chinese Revolution did?

Look, there&#39;s no substitute for examining the concrete facts. This careless compaison certainly isn&#39;t a good substitute.

Your argument is an appeal to mental laziness: just compare China in Tibet to all imperialism in general, then there&#39;s no need to learn or examine anything else.


Virtually all the Tibetan exiles are strongly anti Chinese,

Well, yeah. The ones who left. The former ruling elite. Plus some others self-selected for their political opposition. This is not surprising. Happens in every revolution.

Look up how many Loyalists fled the newly independent U.S. sometime. They had real tales of persecution to tell, too.


Sure. It&#39;s pretty common knowledge I think but here it goes:

It&#39;s a commonly repeated accusation. What&#39;s lacking is evidence, and you still haven&#39;t given any. Nobody ever has.

In fact, that Wikipedia article points out that nobody else goes along fully with the Tibetan exiles&#39; accusations&#33; Not even the Black Book of Communism - which is a tissue of exaggerations and rabid anticommunism. It&#39;s methods and estimates were criticized even by some of the scholars who wrote parts of it&#33;

I pointed out - with evidence - why these accusations of mass genocide are unlikely to be true. Of course, you and other DL fans ignored my evidence. If you prefer faith to evidence, there&#39;s not much I can do about that.


And this is from a book I"m currently reading, "Blessing of the Wind - A History of Tibetan Buddhism"

Yeah, there&#39;s plenty of books by exiled former serfowners, and their Western converts, out there. Which make all kinds of unsupported accusations.

Now I can quote that kind of book too - I do it in my article I linked earlier (http://www.seeingred.com/Copy/3.1_freetibet.html) - in order to point out what they admit against their interests.

But they&#39;re a long way from overall accurate histories like those by scholars like Melvyn Goldstein, A. Tom Grunfeld, or Tsering Shakya.


Treaties in international law are binding on the countries signing them, unless they are imposed by force or a country is coerced into signing the agreement by the threat of force.

That&#39;s a very strange claim; all treaties are imposed by the threat of force. That is, they all reflect the relationship of forces. Treaties are routinely imposed by the victors on the defeated in wars.

The Tibetan army - whose existence the "pacifist" lamas would like you to forget - lost battles. So the government was forced to sign a treaty. This is normal.


Their army was still in occupation of eastern Tibet; the area had not been returned to the government of Tibet, as it should have been.

This is a good example of the total dishonesty and baldfaced lies of the exiled theocrats.

Eastern Tibet - Kham and Amdo - was never under the Lhasa government, so how to "return" it? It was simply never covered by the 17-point agreement.

Read any of the DL&#39;s biographies, even, about how he was, as a child, chosen as an "incarnation." They tell how emissaries had to pay tribute to a Kuomintang-linked Chinese Muslim warlord in order to conduct their search in eastern Tibet.

It&#39;s part of "ethnographic" Tibet - Tibetan by the language and culture of most of its people - not historical "political" Tibet ruled from Lhasa. This is one of the standard tricks of Tibetan exile propaganda - switching back and forth between the two without acknowledging the difference.


And for the record - No I don&#39;t support the Dalai Lama, however I most strongly denounce the Chinese invasion of Tibet, just like I denounce the US invasion of feudal regimes in Afghanistan while not supporting the Taliban.

Really? Then why do you believe every word that comes out of his mouth? Admit it - you don&#39;t just support him, you worship him.

And anyway, your support or opposition to Tibetan or Chinese policies doesn&#39;t really affect anything, does it?

Which is why the Free Tibet campaigns don&#39;t just denounce alleged Chinese bad deeds. They demand the U.S., Britain, and other imperialist governments do something about it.

Where do you stand on that, on the calls for economic sanctions, etc., against China?

Even where action is not explicitly demanded - that&#39;s the only possible real-world effect of denouncing the adversaries of one&#39;s "own" government. Rather than focusing your fire primarily on the government you live under, the government whose foreign and domestic policy you have the chance to practically oppose.

Oh, and BTW. You&#39;re such a big pacifist, supposedly.

Where do you stand on the CIA-armed Tibetan guerillas?

synthesis
11th December 2006, 22:38
None of you lived in Tibet prior to the occupation, none of you have visited and very few of you have spoken to anyone who has seen anything first hand. Each and every one of you is drawing a conclusion that fits into your ideological schema, taking your information from people who have done the same shit before you. Why be so passionate about something that, realistically, you don&#39;t know jack shit about?

The question is: are Tibetans more satisfied with their quality of life than they were before the occupation? You don&#39;t know first-hand? Then stop talking.

Intelligitimate
12th December 2006, 13:10
I&#39;m surprised no one has mentioned Michael Parenti&#39;s article Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth (http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html).

This issue is what seperates the Leftists from the Liberals.

Severian
13th December 2006, 22:35
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 04:38 pm
None of you lived in Tibet prior to the occupation, none of you have visited and very few of you have spoken to anyone who has seen anything first hand.
Neither have you, I&#39;m betting.


Each and every one of you is drawing a conclusion that fits into your ideological schema, taking your information from people who have done the same shit before you.

Speak for yourself. I&#39;ve drawn a conclusion based on the facts, drawn from a full range of sources, with the full range of different ideological biases. I know the facts on Tibet better than anyone I&#39;ve ever met, in real life or on the &#39;net. Have you dealt with the facts I&#39;ve posted? No, you&#39;ve just done a general-purpose diatribe, probably without reading the thread.


The question is: are Tibetans more satisfied with their quality of life than they were before the occupation? You don&#39;t know first-hand? Then stop talking.

Why not take your own advice and shut up?