Sex Change

[Avtomatov]

Im restricted so I have to post this here.

What does everyone think about sex changes? Are they bourgeoise decadence?

And for the people that have seen my pic in livechat, do you think i would make a good looking woman? I think I would.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Well its certainly not bourgeoise decadence.

Firstly because there were cases of sex changes prior to the Bourgeoise revolutions.

Second, its not really decadent, i dont know why it could be argued to be? why do you think it could be?

[Pirate Utopian]

let people go ahead, not a problem with me

[Darth Revan]

Transexuals Scare me :(

[Jazzratt]

Certianly in a society further in the future, I think something as meaningless as gender or appearence could be changed swiftly and with as little damage to the subject's normal functioning as possible.

They are certianly not bourgeoise decadence, for the reasons BCS stated.

You look like shit, I'm fairly sure you'd look like shit as a woman too.

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 10:51 PM
Certianly in a society further in the future, I think something as meaningless as gender or appearence could be changed swiftly and with as little damage to the subject's normal functioning as possible.

They are certianly not bourgeoise decadence, for the reasons BCS stated.

You look like shit, I'm fairly sure you'd look like shit as a woman too.
Dont you think its kind of insulting :huh:

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Darth Revan+Oct 7 2006, 10:54 PM--> (Darth Revan @ Oct 7 2006, 10:54 PM)
[email protected] 7 2006, 10:51 PM
Certianly in a society further in the future, I think something as meaningless as gender or appearence could be changed swiftly and with as little damage to the subject's normal functioning as possible.

They are certianly not bourgeoise decadence, for the reasons BCS stated.

You look like shit, I'm fairly sure you'd look like shit as a woman too.
Dont you think its kind of insulting :huh: [/b]
Which bit?

The appearence judgment is also entirely subjective, I personally don't think he's very attractive - extrapolating from that I judged that she wouldn't be too attractive either.

[Darth Revan]

You said that he looks like shit you could have said that he just dosnt looks good

[Jazzratt]

I said he looks like shit because I don't like him as a person.

[Avtomatov]

He doesnt like me because I am a real communist, and he is an anarchist/technocrat.

And you look like more shit then me jazzrat. Ill have you know, almost every single girl in my school has a crush on me!

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 11:30 PM
He doesnt like me because I am a real communist, and he is an anarchist/technocrat.
So what have you done that's in any way communist apart from crap on about invisible divides on an internet messageboard? Also I take offense at the anarchist accusation, but then you're too much of a fuckwit to understand anarchy and what parts of it I reject that make me ultimatley a non-anarchist.


And you look like more shit then me jazzrat. Ill have you know, almost every single girl in my school has a crush on me! A delsusional fantasy, unless you've asked them. That and I, not to blow my own trumpet, have given several boys erections and have earned a little money doing nude modelling for a piece or voyeurism and beauty. Stick that in your ugly little beak and smoke it.

[Avtomatov]

A delsusional fantasy, unless you've asked them. That and I, not to blow my own trumpet, have given several boys erections and have earned a little money doing nude modelling for a piece or voyeurism and beauty. Stick that in your ugly little beak and smoke it.

Its not delusional. A couple have told me personally that they have huge crushes on me. One is pretty much obsessed with me. And they tell me that all the other girls like me too.

Why are you giving boys erections? Are you a gay pedophile?

I wouldnt want to see you nude, youre nasty, you look like oscar the grouch.

PS: dont make fun of my beak

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Ill have you know, almost every single girl in my school has a crush on me!

Now thats bourgeoise fucking decadence

But are you not going to let me know why you thought it might have been decadent to have a sex change?

[Avtomatov]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 11:40 PM

Ill have you know, almost every single girl in my school has a crush on me!

Now thats bourgeoise fucking decadence

But are you not going to let me know why you thought it might have been decadent to have a sex change?
Ive heard some people say it was.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

ahh right

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 11:40 PM
Its not delusional. A couple have told me personally that they have huge crushes on me. One is pretty much obsessed with me. And they tell me that all the other girls like me too.
A) I highly doubt that your school has only 2 female students. B) Somone who is obsessed with you is bound to lie to increase your ego, to keep you happy because people are gnerally nicer when they are happy and have their ego stroked.


Why are you giving boys erections? Are you a gay pedophile? Don't be a semantics whore, the 'boys' were about 17, 18 and 22. So fuck off.


I wouldnt want to see you nude, youre nasty, you look like oscar the grouch. And you look a nightmarish perversion of my mate's brother. However this personal mudslinging, whilst fun - is not really in keeping with the message board.


PS: dont make fun of my beak Care to step outside :lol: (Fine, put that in your pipe and smoke it.)

Also did you ask this person who told you that having a sex change would be bourgeoise decadence why they thought that?

[Avtomatov]

no my school has got like 10 female students.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by Darth [email protected] 7 2006, 05:51 PM
Transexuals Scare me :(
I really hope you're not serious.

Also, Jazz and Atomatov, I think you need to chill out and stop throwing mud at each other. It makes you both look bad.

[D_Bokk]

I'm opposed to all cosmetic surgery. Not only is it a waste of medical research and time, but it teaches people within the society to hate themselves. The focus on outward appearance is a bourgeois idea, hence the diamonds, make-up, clothing and everything else that comes with today's consumer society.

Public Enemy sums up the anti-cosmetic surgery argument quite well in "Plastic Nation":
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ECBFTRXY

A "Brave New World" isn't the world we want. . . I hope we can all agree on this.

[Avtomatov]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 11:58 PM
I'm opposed to all cosmetic surgery. Not only is it a waste of medical research and time, but it teaches people within the society to hate themselves. The focus on outward appearance is a bourgeois idea, hence the diamonds, make-up, clothing and everything else that comes with today's consumer society.

Public Enemy sums up the anti-cosmetic surgery argument quite well in "Plastic Nation":
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ECBFTRXY

A "Brave New World" isn't the world we want. . . I hope we can all agree on this.
OK, what about Hormone Therapy? What do you guys think of that?

[Avtomatov]

Personally, I think plastic surgery should be prescribed and free, only to people who need it the most. Just to make for a more equalitarian society.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by Avtomatov
OK, what about Hormone Therapy? What do you guys think of that?
I cannot fathom to understand why someone would want to change sex. Are they that homophobic to think that so long as they have a penis it's "wrong"? I'm willing to bet that transexuals are a product of societal intolerance, not being a "woman trapped in a man's body." And vice-versa, of course.

Personally, I think plastic surgery should be prescribed, only to people who need it the most. Just to make for a more equalitarian society.
"Oh man, you're one UGLY motherfucker! Here's a note to get that fixed.. I mean DAMN you're fucking ugly! Here, wear this bag until you can get an appointment. Have a nice day!"

Is that the kind of conversation you want people to go through with their doctor?

[Avtomatov]

Hormone therapy doesnt get rid of the penis. It feminizes the body.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 11:53 PM
no my school has got like 10 female students.
Dude. I'll try asking my question again, and then maybe you can answere it and we can have a civilised debate and not, as Muig said sling mud at each other. Because I do feel something of a tit for having bothered to enter that stupid pissing match with you.

Anyway:

Also did you ask this person who told you that having a sex change would be bourgeoise decadence why they thought that?

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by Avtomatov
Hormone therapy doesnt get rid of the penis. It feminies the body.
Still, my argument goes unchanged. The question is "Why do they feel like they need to change sexes?" not "Can they get a sex change?"

[Avtomatov]

I dont know, doesnt a person have a right to do what they want to themselves.

D_Bokk I dont beleive you would have sex with an ugly old man dressed in womans clothes. So what you are saying is like, dont be happy, god made you the way you are, even though "beauty" effects how people treat you, we should pretend it doesnt.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by Avtomatov
I dont know, doesnt a person have a right to do what they want to themselves.
Right, they can cut off their own penis for all I care.

D_Bokk I dont beleive you would have sex with an ugly old man dressed in womans clothes.
No, I don't believe I would. However, I don't really see where you're going with this. I wouldn't have sex with an old transexual man either... or an old woman for that matter.

[Avtomatov]

Well you are saying beauty doesnt matter, yet you admit it effects how you interact with others...

Should you really be pissed off at someone for trying to be accepted?

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by D_Bokk
Well you are saying beauty doesnt matter, yet you admit it effects how you interact with others...
I don't have sex with everyone I meet. I will still interact with people who are unattractive. Sex isn't what I base friends or relationships on... maybe you do.

Should you really be pissed off at someone for trying to be accepted?
No. I'm pissed off when society tells someone they're ugly and they turn around and lose all feeling in their: face, lips, breasts, penis and vagina for the sole benefit of others.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Whats wrong with cosmetic surgery?

There are some people who have had really bad accidents and they can feel more confortable with a cosmetic operation.

Thats a positive thing to come out of cosmetic surgery surly.

[RevMARKSman]

Whassa whole deal about transsexual people?

Is it decadent to make your body match what your (conscious and unconscious) mind thinks it should be? I'd still feel like a male if gender roles were reversed, I think. Am I bourgeois-decadence now? This is an issue of core identity, something that cannot be substantially changed by society and its standards.


lose all feeling in their: face, lips, breasts, penis and vagina for the sole benefit of others.

Others? I hadn't really thought of others. I figure most transsexual people do it for themselves more than for others.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by bloody_capitalist_sham
Whats wrong with cosmetic surgery?

There are some people who have had really bad accidents and they can feel more confortable with a cosmetic operation.

Thats a positive thing to come out of cosmetic surgery surly.
This is what's wrong:

"No. I'm pissed off when society tells someone they're ugly and they turn around and lose all feeling in their: face, lips, breasts, penis and vagina for the sole benefit of others."

That's only the physical problem.

People will look in the mirror and think they're ugly and go get surgery. How many of these people actually are satisfied with their appearance after they "fix" one problem? I imagine the number's very low, since they'll likely go back for more surgery later.

Hating yourself and your appearance is a mental problem. They should be given help via their friends, family and community to overcome their insecurity. The quick fix isn't the right fix.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed
Others? I hadn't really thought of others. I figure most transsexual people do it for themselves more than for others.
I don't know about you, but I see the world from a first person viewpoint.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by D_Bokk+Oct 7 2006, 07:54 PM--> (D_Bokk @ Oct 7 2006, 07:54 PM)
MonicaTTmed
Others? I hadn't really thought of others. I figure most transsexual people do it for themselves more than for others.
I don't know about you, but I see the world from a first person viewpoint. [/b]
WTF?

Try reading the sentences separately, instead of as a string.


" I hadn't really thought of others (as part of my transsexuality)."
"I figure most transsexual people do it for themselves more than for others."

[Avtomatov]

D_Bokk are you straight, gay, or bi?

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+--> (MonicaTTmed)WTF?

Try reading the sentences separately, instead of as a string.


" I hadn't really thought of others (as part of my transsexuality)."
"I figure most transsexual people do it for themselves more than for others."[/b]
Right... and I'm saying that outward appearances of your own body and face are not seen unless you look into a mirror. Otherwise only others can see you. Either way, it doesn't change who you are on the inside.

I'm curious, what do you think about this:

Are they [transexuals] that homophobic to think that so long as they have a penis it's "wrong"? I'm willing to bet that transexuals are a product of societal intolerance, not being a "woman trapped in a man's body." And vice-versa, of course.


Avtomatov
D_Bokk are you straight, gay, or bi?
Straight, why?

[RevMARKSman]

seen

yeah, they can be felt too. Not by anyone but you. It's like being born without a finger, or being born with an extra functional one, while your unconscious knows it's not supposed to be there. It's like an "inventory."

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed
yeah, they can be felt too. Not by anyone but you. It's like being born without a finger, or being born with an extra functional one, while your unconscious knows it's not supposed to be there. It's like an "inventory."
I clearly don't understand the logic behind this.

What about your nervous system? Boob jobs, for example, remove a lot of the feeling for the person getting the operation. Sure they're "there," but other than you knowing that - what other purpose will they now serve?

Can transexuals have orgasms? Specifically the ones who turn their vagina into a penis or their penis into a vagina.

[thisguyisatotaljerk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 10:25 PM
Im restricted so I have to post this here.

What does everyone think about sex changes? Are they bourgeoise decadence?

And for the people that have seen my pic in livechat, do you think i would make a good looking woman? I think I would.
I think we all need to see a pic of this incredible hottness. I'll tell you if ur hot. Personally women tell me I'm cute, but I never had half the school on my tail... one quarter maybe.

I do have some advice though. To see what its like sexually, drink a few bottles of soy milk every day for a few days. This contains plant estrogens. After I tried this, I temporarily started to look and think about men very differently.

And as for you Jazzratt, what the matter, you even talk to your communist brethren in this vile and unseemly manner? Have you no honor sir?

[Rollo]

Originally posted by thisguyisatotaljerk+Oct 8 2006, 05:22 PM--> (thisguyisatotaljerk @ Oct 8 2006, 05:22 PM)
[email protected] 7 2006, 10:25 PM
Im restricted so I have to post this here.

What does everyone think about sex changes? Are they bourgeoise decadence?

And for the people that have seen my pic in livechat, do you think i would make a good looking woman? I think I would.
I think we all need to see a pic of this incredible hottness. I'll tell you if ur hot. Personally women tell me I'm cute, but I never had half the school on my tail... one quarter maybe.

I do have some advice though. To see what its like sexually, drink a few bottles of soy milk every day for a few days. This contains plant estrogens. After I tried this, I temporarily started to look and think about men very differently.

And as for you Jazzratt, what the matter, you even talk to your communist brethren in this vile and unseemly manner? Have you no honor sir? [/b]
You're the most stupid person ever.

[RevMARKSman]

Sure they're "there," but other than you knowing that - what other purpose will they now serve?


None. They are for the purpose of "you knowing that" and sometimes for others "knowing that."

[Darth Revan]

D_Bokk i totally agree with you people should be happy with how they were born they need to be grateful that they weren't born with an genetic disease
Changing you're sex wont help you get accepted into society as a woman you were born a man and you will stay this way forever even if you cut of you're own dick Its just another side effect of homophobia

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Are they bourgeoise decadence?


And even if it was a "bourgeois decadence", let's say sex change started after the bourgeoisie revolutions, should we have opposed it then?

Say homosexuality didn't come about after bourgeoisie revolutions, should we beat up homosexuals just because..?

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Darth [email protected] 8 2006, 08:00 AM
D_Bokk i totally agree with you people should be happy with how they were born they need to be grateful that they weren't born with an genetic disease
Changing you're sex wont help you get accepted into society as a woman you were born a man and you will stay this way forever even if you cut of you're own dick Its just another side effect of homophobia
Yup, because everyone knows all transsexual people are homophobic and ungrateful, no matter what their core identity is and their actual attitude towards homosexuality as well as the treatment of those with genetic diseases... :wacko:

Listen, Darth Redneck, this isn't just about society, it's about self-actualization and matching one's body with one's identity, which cannot be changed.

[Dyst]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 08:09 PM
And even if it was a "bourgeois decadence", let's say sex change started after the bourgeoisie revolutions, should we have opposed it then?

Say homosexuality didn't come about after bourgeoisie revolutions, should we beat up homosexuals just because..?
No, but it's foolish to believe these things are not affected by material conditions, which you are hinting.

[Dyst]

Crap double post.

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+Oct 8 2006, 02:11 PM--> (MonicaTTmed @ Oct 8 2006, 02:11 PM)
Darth [email protected] 8 2006, 08:00 AM
D_Bokk i totally agree with you people should be happy with how they were born they need to be grateful that they weren't born with an genetic disease
Changing you're sex wont help you get accepted into society as a woman you were born a man and you will stay this way forever even if you cut of you're own dick Its just another side effect of homophobia
Yup, because everyone knows all transsexual people are homophobic and ungrateful, no matter what their core identity is and their actual attitude towards homosexuality as well as the treatment of those with genetic diseases... :wacko:

Listen, Darth Redneck, this isn't just about society, it's about self-actualization and matching one's body with one's identity, which cannot be changed. [/b]
F*ck of i didn't mean transsexuals are homophobic i meant that there closet gays and are afraid of coming out you call me a redneck one more time and iam gonna stab you fuck :angry:

[Darth Revan]

MonicaTTmed that&#39;s not what i meant you&#39;re twisting my words i said people should accept the way they were born and not try to change it so fuck off <_<

[which doctor]

Avtomatov, PM me a picture of you and I will tell you if you would make an ugly girl or not.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Darth Revan+Oct 8 2006, 12:51 PM--> (Darth Revan @ Oct 8 2006, 12:51 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 02:11 PM

Darth [email protected] 8 2006, 08:00 AM
D_Bokk i totally agree with you people should be happy with how they were born they need to be grateful that they weren&#39;t born with an genetic disease
Changing you&#39;re sex wont help you get accepted into society as a woman you were born a man and you will stay this way forever even if you cut of you&#39;re own dick Its just another side effect of homophobia
Yup, because everyone knows all transsexual people are homophobic and ungrateful, no matter what their core identity is and their actual attitude towards homosexuality as well as the treatment of those with genetic diseases... :wacko:

Listen, Darth Redneck, this isn&#39;t just about society, it&#39;s about self-actualization and matching one&#39;s body with one&#39;s identity, which cannot be changed.
F*ck of i didn&#39;t mean transsexuals are homophobic i meant that there closet gays and are afraid of coming out you call me a redneck one more time and iam gonna stab you fuck :angry: [/b]
I&#39;m not a closet gay. I&#39;m asexual, and transsexual. Oops, there goes that conjecture.


MonicaTTmed that&#39;s not what i meant you&#39;re twisting my words i said people should accept the way they were born and not try to change it so fuck off

Yup, all those people who were born with missing limbs, or extra ones, or debilitating motion-inhibiting conditions shouldn&#39;t try to chnge &#39;em...right...

[Avtomatov]

Im no closet homophobe either. You guys are dumbasses. Im Bisexual and Transexual.

[Avtomatov]

DELETE

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed
Yup, because everyone knows all transsexual people are homophobic and ungrateful, no matter what their core identity is and their actual attitude towards homosexuality as well as the treatment of those with genetic diseases...
Well, they had to have felt like something was wrong for them to chop off their penis. My conjecture is that they&#39;ve been convinced by society that being gay is wrong, so they decided becoming a female would make it right.

Self-hate isn&#39;t natural.

Yup, all those people who were born with missing limbs, or extra ones, or debilitating motion-inhibiting conditions shouldn&#39;t try to chnge &#39;em...right...
These procedures can be done without speciality knowledge in cosmetic surgery. And to top it off, it has nothing to do with sex changes.

[Darth Revan]

This forum is just to weird

[RevMARKSman]

Well, they had to have felt like something was wrong for them to chop off their penis

Yup. It conflicts with their identity as women.


Self-hate isn&#39;t natural.

No shit?
Sex changes are a way of resolving the issue that causes self-hate: gender identity dysphoria.


These procedures can be done without speciality knowledge in cosmetic surgery. And to top it off, it has nothing to do with sex changes.

I was only responding to Darth Revan&#39;s comment:

i said people should accept the way they were born and not try to change it so fuck off


you call me a redneck one more time and iam gonna stab you fuck
:rolleyes: Internet = serious business.

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+Oct 8 2006, 05:53 PM--> (MonicaTTmed &#064; Oct 8 2006, 05:53 PM)
Originally posted by Darth [email protected] 8 2006, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 02:11 PM

Darth [email protected] 8 2006, 08:00 AM
D_Bokk i totally agree with you people should be happy with how they were born they need to be grateful that they weren&#39;t born with an genetic disease
Changing you&#39;re sex wont help you get accepted into society as a woman you were born a man and you will stay this way forever even if you cut of you&#39;re own dick Its just another side effect of homophobia
Yup, because everyone knows all transsexual people are homophobic and ungrateful, no matter what their core identity is and their actual attitude towards homosexuality as well as the treatment of those with genetic diseases... :wacko:

Listen, Darth Redneck, this isn&#39;t just about society, it&#39;s about self-actualization and matching one&#39;s body with one&#39;s identity, which cannot be changed.
F*ck of i didn&#39;t mean transsexuals are homophobic i meant that there closet gays and are afraid of coming out you call me a redneck one more time and iam gonna stab you fuck :angry:
I&#39;m not a closet gay. I&#39;m asexual, and transsexual. Oops, there goes that conjecture.


MonicaTTmed that&#39;s not what i meant you&#39;re twisting my words i said people should accept the way they were born and not try to change it so fuck off

Yup, all those people who were born with missing limbs, or extra ones, or debilitating motion-inhibiting conditions shouldn&#39;t try to chnge &#39;em...right... [/b]
A sex change isn&#39;t necessary like an an eye surgery or something you can continue you&#39;re life as a male or female without any problems
EDIT:OMG QUOTE TRAIN :D

[Avtomatov]

OMFG D_Bokk, i thought you were smarter then this. Transexuality has nothing to do with being gay. And gender identity has got nothing to do sexual orientation.

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 07:05 PM

Well, they had to have felt like something was wrong for them to chop off their penis

Yup. It conflicts with their identity as women.


Self-hate isn&#39;t natural.

No shit?
Sex changes are a way of resolving the issue that causes self-hate: gender identity dysphoria.


These procedures can be done without speciality knowledge in cosmetic surgery. And to top it off, it has nothing to do with sex changes.

I was only responding to Darth Revan&#39;s comment:

i said people should accept the way they were born and not try to change it so fuck off


you call me a redneck one more time and iam gonna stab you fuck
:rolleyes: Internet = serious business.
You know what i don&#39;t feel like a human i am not a human iam dolphin trapped inside a humans body iam gonna have a Specie-change YEAH :D

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 07:08 PM
OMFG D_Bokk, i thought you were smarter then this. Transexuality has nothing to do with being gay. And gender identity has got nothing to do sexual orientation.
Yes there are &#39;&#39;transexual lesbians&#39;&#39;

[RevMARKSman]

A sex change isn&#39;t necessary like an an eye surgery or something you can continue you&#39;re life as a male or female without any problems

So sexual anxiety, depression and even suicide are "without any problems"? :blink:


You know what i don&#39;t feel like a human i am not a human iam dolphin trapped inside a humans body iam gonna have a Specie-change YEAH biggrin.gif


I&#39;d like to see an actual evidence for your case of "species identity disorder," you know, like having the brain proportions of a dolphin, before you go through with this.


Yes there are &#39;&#39;transexual lesbians&#39;&#39;

No shit, we noticed. There are also transsexual: gay men, straight women and men, bi men and women, and asexual men and women.

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 07:12 PM

A sex change isn&#39;t necessary like an an eye surgery or something you can continue you&#39;re life as a male or female without any problems

So sexual anxiety, depression and even suicide are "without any problems"? :blink:


You know what i don&#39;t feel like a human i am not a human iam dolphin trapped inside a humans body iam gonna have a Specie-change YEAH biggrin.gif


I&#39;d like to see an actual evidence for your case of "species identity disorder," you know, like having the brain proportions of a dolphin, before you go through with this.
ah whatever you can have a sex change if you want i wont say anything i just thing it isn&#39;t right my opinion doesnt really counts so whatever do what you want :wacko:

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed
Yup. It conflicts with their identity as women.
Or their identity of a gay man.

No shit?
Sex changes are a way of resolving the issue that causes self-hate: gender identity dysphoria.

No, it&#39;s a way of promoting the issue.

"Hey, if you don&#39;t like the way you are - just get under the knife&#33;"

So sexual anxiety, depression and even suicide are "without any problems"?
Societal problem or internal problem, is the debate here. I argue society because society claims gays are bad, you argue internal problem because you "feel" like you&#39;re of the opposite sex because it "feels right."

I&#39;d like to see an actual evidence for your case of "species identity disorder," you know, like having the brain proportions of a dolphin, before you go through with this.
Gerald Broflovski wanted to be a dolphin. :lol:

[RevMARKSman]

Or their identity of a gay man.

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm


Furthermore, the size of the BSTc of heterosexual men and homosexual men did not differ, which reinforced the idea that the reduced BSTc size {which is a factor in transsexuality} is independent of sexual orientation.


No, it&#39;s a way of promoting the issue.

"Hey, if you don&#39;t like the way you are - just get under the knife&#33;"

So you suggest changing the individual&#39;s core identity, which they are perfectly happy with, instead of their body, with which they are not?


I argue society because society claims gays are bad

So every transsexual is a closet gay?

I already refuted that with my own counterexample. I am an FTM transsexual and sexually attracted to NO ONE.
It only takes one counterexample...


you argue internal problem because you "feel" like you&#39;re of the opposite sex because it "feels right."

Turkey in the straw, turkey in the hay,
Roll &#39;em up and twist &#39;em up a high tuckahaw
And twist &#39;em up a tune called Turkey in the Straw.

Again:
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

This is an issue of the brain, its proportions, hormones, and how they relate to gender identity, not a fleeting "feeling."

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by D_Bokk+Oct 8 2006, 07:39 PM--> (D_Bokk @ Oct 8 2006, 07:39 PM)
MonicaTTmed
Yup. It conflicts with their identity as women.
Or their identity of a gay man.

No shit?
Sex changes are a way of resolving the issue that causes self-hate: gender identity dysphoria.

No, it&#39;s a way of promoting the issue.

"Hey, if you don&#39;t like the way you are - just get under the knife&#33;"

So sexual anxiety, depression and even suicide are "without any problems"?
Societal problem or internal problem, is the debate here. I argue society because society claims gays are bad, you argue internal problem because you "feel" like you&#39;re of the opposite sex because it "feels right."

I&#39;d like to see an actual evidence for your case of "species identity disorder," you know, like having the brain proportions of a dolphin, before you go through with this.
Gerald Broflovski wanted to be a dolphin. :lol: [/b]
Yeah lol south park

[Avtomatov]

I sent FoB my picture, he says I would make a decent woman.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Sex change is fine. There are biological reasons for it that are difficult to explain. If you are going to criticize it, you should research the matter first. If you research the matter, you probably won&#39;t criticize it any longer.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+Oct 8 2006, 08:17 PM--> (MonicaTTmed &#064; Oct 8 2006, 08:17 PM)

Or their identity of a gay man.

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm


Furthermore, the size of the BSTc of heterosexual men and homosexual men did not differ, which reinforced the idea that the reduced BSTc size {which is a factor in transsexuality} is independent of sexual orientation.


No, it&#39;s a way of promoting the issue.

"Hey, if you don&#39;t like the way you are - just get under the knife&#33;"

So you suggest changing the individual&#39;s core identity, which they are perfectly happy with, instead of their body, with which they are not?


I argue society because society claims gays are bad

So every transsexual is a closet gay?

I already refuted that with my own counterexample. I am an FTM transsexual and sexually attracted to NO ONE.
It only takes one counterexample...


you argue internal problem because you "feel" like you&#39;re of the opposite sex because it "feels right."

Turkey in the straw, turkey in the hay,
Roll &#39;em up and twist &#39;em up a high tuckahaw
And twist &#39;em up a tune called Turkey in the Straw.

Again:
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

This is an issue of the brain, its proportions, hormones, and how they relate to gender identity, not a fleeting "feeling."[/b]
Okay, I&#39;ll assume the article is truthful.

What&#39;s the difference between being a male and a female beyond body structure? Based on my above assumation - you must claim that there&#39;s a difference between the two since a man can "feel" like a woman without their body structure. What could that difference possibly be? I really cannot imagine a difference.

What do you think of people who get whiskers inserted into their face and their ears changed to be a cat because they "feel" like they&#39;re a cat?

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
Sex change is fine. There are biological reasons for it that are difficult to explain. If you are going to criticize it, you should research the matter first. If you research the matter, you probably won&#39;t criticize it any longer.
Why would there be cosmetic surgery in communism?

[Rollo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 09:14 AM
I sent FoB my picture, he says I would make a decent woman.
It be true, he would make a decent woman from the photo I&#39;ve seen :P.

[RevMARKSman]

What&#39;s the difference between being a male and a female beyond body structure? Based on my above assumation - you must claim that there&#39;s a difference between the two since a man can "feel" like a woman without their body structure. What could that difference possibly be? I really cannot imagine a difference.


Did you even read the article?

BSTc size is a difference. Transsexual women identify as female because of the female BSTc size, which affects hormones, which affect identity. Men and women have different hormones too, y&#39;know.

[Rollo]

Don&#39;t forgot those wacky chromozones Monica.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 09:32 PM
Don&#39;t forgot those wacky chromozones Monica.
That&#39;s kind of a given. A physical difference, not an identity or brain difference.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed
Did you even read the article?

BSTc size is a difference. Transsexual women identify as female because of the female BSTc size, which affects hormones, which affect identity. Men and women have different hormones too, y&#39;know.
A man doesn&#39;t have female hormones... we&#39;re talking about a man emulating a female or vice-versa. Well they do have the female hormone - but you know what I&#39;m getting at. They don&#39;t have the certain amount needed to be a biological woman.

I&#39;m asking, what&#39;s the difference between a man and woman that requires a sex change?

[Rollo]

The main difference is physically.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by Rollo
The main difference is physically.
Right, which leads back to plastic surgery. Why should communism have a medical practice which promotes self-hate?

[Rollo]

I don&#39;t see how it&#39;s self hate. They would just rather be a member of the opposite sex. Or adleast appear to be.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

A sex change comes from a desire to be the appropriate sex. There was a case where a boy was born with a micropenis, if I recall correctly, and a doctor removed it purposely (evil, I know). He then asked the couple if they wanted to raise the child as a girl or boy. They said girl. Years later a sex change. Other cases like this have been documented I believe.

[Quills]

The case of David Reimer is one that&#39;s used over and over as conclusive proof of biologically perscribed gender roles, but if it is not a valid case. That man didn&#39;t have a "normal" upbringing as a women, he went to meetings twice a year to discuss how much of a girl he was, his parents were probably the least subtle people in the world and not at all prepared for the task of lying to their child, and he was told in his early teens.

However there are a couple of badly documented cases of the opposite happening, for example a women (who was actually a man born without a penis) never having any problems untill her and her boyfriend went to the doctors to find out why she couldn&#39;t get pregnant and being told that she didn&#39;t have a womb and was, biologically, a man.

There&#39;s also a tribe called the Tchambuli in which the gender roles are reversed. Women are dominant and sexually aggressive, and the men portray the stereotypically female traits of dependence, vainity and "*****iness".

I feel that once gender roles are diminished that the number of transgendered people will fall dramatically. The fact that some feel like they should have what is typically an opposite sex personality and interests means nothing more than that they have different interests than most same sex people around them. To imply that because of this they need to change biological sex perpetuates these roles.

However, if they just wish to have a different body, and they feel it will dramatically improve their lives, then I see no reason they shouldn&#39;t be able to. I, not being transgendered, have no idea how they feel, so cannot actually say anything of any real merit.

[RevMARKSman]

A man doesn&#39;t have female hormones... we&#39;re talking about a man emulating a female or vice-versa. Well they do have the female hormone - but you know what I&#39;m getting at. They don&#39;t have the certain amount needed to be a biological woman.

I&#39;m asking, what&#39;s the difference between a man and woman that requires a sex change?

This person, who is a male physically, identifies as a woman because of the female BSTc in her brain. In order to fulfill her identity, she gets a biological sex change to appear female to herself and others.

[Avtomatov]

What age do you guys think people should have a sex change at?

If I would get one, I would have wanted to get one at 13. Because my chest is getting bigger, and my shoulders are broader, everything is more masculine now.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 07:19 PM
What age do you guys think people should have a sex change at?

If I would get one, I would have wanted to get one at 13. Because my chest is getting bigger, and my shoulders are broader, everything is more masculine now.
However early the person finishes the Real Life test (1 year living as the opposite gender). Some people are just insincere, or might regret it later.

[Avtomatov]

Can they figure out if you have the opposite size BSTc thing while you are alive?

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 07:26 PM
Can they figure out if you have the opposite size BSTc thing while you are alive?
Er. Yeah. That study was done on live subjects.

[D_Bokk]

I want everyone to at least think about this question and it&#39;s ramifications if the answer is yes:

Will plastic surgery exist in communism as a profession?

Originally posted by Rollo+--> (Rollo) I don&#39;t see how it&#39;s self hate. They would just rather be a member of the opposite sex. Or adleast appear to be.[/b]
You don&#39;t see how cutting off your penis doesn&#39;t relate to hating yourself?

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected]
A sex change comes from a desire to be the appropriate sex.

MonicaTTmed
This person, who is a male physically, identifies as a woman because of the female BSTc in her brain. In order to fulfill her identity, she gets a biological sex change to appear female to herself and others.
How&#39;s that different from an ugly person who "feels" like a pretty person on the inside?

[D_Bokk]

"Be Yourself" by Audioslave

Someone falls to pieces, sleeping all alone and someone kills the pain
Spinning in the silence, it finally drifts away
someone gets excited in a chapel yard and catches a bouquet
another lays a dozen white roses on a grave

And to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do

Someone finds salvation in everyone, another only pain
someone tries to hide himself, down inside himself he prays
someone swears its true love until the end of time, another runs away
separate or united, healthy or insane

And to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do

And even when you’ve paid enough, been pulled apart or been held up
Because every single memory of the good or bad faces of luck
don’t lose any sleep tonight
I&#39;m sure everything will end up alright

you may win or lose
But to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do


That pretty much sums up my argument.

[thisguyisatotaljerk]

OK, Whoa, slow down, hold your horses Avtomatov.

Right, let me get this completely clear.

You say the womenfolk are falling for you. Is this right? Ok, that&#39;s a good sign.

But then you say you want a sex change?

Like, WTF? :blink:

Can&#39;t you just take the chicks? :cool:

Like, Why aren&#39;t you satisfied?

Man, you can&#39;t be for real.

[Rollo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 07:37 PM
OK, Whoa, slow down, hold your horses Avtomatov.

Right, let me get this completely clear.

You say the womenfolk are falling for you. Is this right? Ok, that&#39;s a good sign.

But then you say you want a sex change?

Like, WTF? :blink:

Can&#39;t you just take the chicks? :cool:

Like, Why aren&#39;t you satisfied?

Man, you can&#39;t be for real.
Are you like 4 years old?

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 10:46 PM
"Be Yourself" by Audioslave

Someone falls to pieces, sleeping all alone and someone kills the pain
Spinning in the silence, it finally drifts away
someone gets excited in a chapel yard and catches a bouquet
another lays a dozen white roses on a grave

And to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do

Someone finds salvation in everyone, another only pain
someone tries to hide himself, down inside himself he prays
someone swears its true love until the end of time, another runs away
separate or united, healthy or insane

And to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do

And even when you’ve paid enough, been pulled apart or been held up
Because every single memory of the good or bad faces of luck
don’t lose any sleep tonight
I&#39;m sure everything will end up alright

you may win or lose
But to be yourself is all that you can do
to be yourself is all that you can do


That pretty much sums up my argument.
And mine.

When your physical body doesn&#39;t match your gender identity (which is determined before birth), you gotta change your body.



How&#39;s that different from an ugly person who "feels" like a pretty person on the inside?

Stop stalling, there is no part of the brain that determines one&#39;s identity as "pretty," that is completely determined by society and the image it forces on its members of the concepts "pretty" and "ugly."

[Darth Revan]

Avtomatov its stupid to have a SRS (sex reassignment surgery) while you&#39;re still a teenager wait until you grow up or you will end up regretting it

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Darth [email protected] 10 2006, 11:08 AM
Avtomatov its stupid to have a SRS (sex reassignment surgery) while you&#39;re still a teenager wait until you grow up or you will end up regretting it
Right, because everything teenagers do they end up regretting.
:rolleyes:

There is a study on this, I&#39;ll get it later.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed
And mine.

When your physical body doesn&#39;t match your gender identity (which is determined before birth), you gotta change your body.
Or you accept your appearance and move on with your life. Whether you have a sex change or not, you will always be the same person inside.

I, personally, am a nerd. However, my outward appearance doesn&#39;t scream "NERD&#33;&#33;" Even so, I don&#39;t put on fake glasses, tape them up and slap on a pocket protector so I and everyone else is confident that I am in fact a nerd.


Stop stalling, there is no part of the brain that determines one&#39;s identity as "pretty," that is completely determined by society and the image it forces on its members of the concepts "pretty" and "ugly."
In a large way, sex and specifically the roles, are determined by society as well. You obviously view men and women as clearly different, because you were so determined to change your sex.

[RevMARKSman]

Or you accept your appearance and move on with your life. Whether you have a sex change or not, you will always be the same person inside.


Er...no. SRS improves psychological functioning, fulfillment and overall happiness and satisfaction for nearly everyone who has it.

http://www.antijen.org/cohen.html <--- Young Transsexuals and the Effects of SRS

What is Transgender? Causes
|
|
v


So far, there is no final agreement as to what factors are involved in transgender behavior. There are two major conflicting schools, one emphasizing nature, the other nurture, and many who find the answer in a various combinations of the two. Those who emphasize nature look not only to chromosomal variations such as XXY or single X or others but the influence of hormones and other factors on the embryo. One of the richest sources of study have been children with ambiguous sexuality . This could be due to various factors including adrenogenital syndrome which produces varying degrees of pseudo hermaphroditism and virilization in girls (Ehrhardt, Epstein and Money, 1968A; Ehrhardt, Evers, and Money, 1968B).Another factor involved is androgen insensitivity syndrome which results in testicular feminization. It occurs as a result of a deficiency of androgen receptors, a condition that makes the subject insensitive to androgens in the genital area. It only occurs in genetic males and results in sexual differentiation along female lines, but because of the crucial effects of the Muellerian inhibiting factor, not quite into a normal female. Thus even though they have the normal female external genitalia, internally there are intra-abdominal testes, a lack of a uterus, and a short and blind vagina. The child usually is reared as a girl and develops breasts, but she never begins to menstruate. In spite of their lack of ovaries and uteri, these XY women develop as normal females in their capacity for sexual response and sexual desire.

If testosterone is added to the bloodstream of a genetically female fetus during a critical period in development, a girl will be born with either a grossly enlarged clitoris, or in rare instances, a normal looking penis with an empty scrotum. Such a development can take place through an abnormal function of the adrenal cortex, or might result from a tumor (Money, 1965, Money,1968). The list of various anomalies can be extended, but the point I want to emphasize is that though biology has an important role in how we develop as boys and girls, men and women, other factors are also present.This was emphasized by the famous case of the Canadian male twins, one of whom had his penis burned off by a cauterizing gun during a circumcision procedure which took place when they were seven months old. The parents over the course of the next year sought help on what to do about their boy without a penis, but everyone agreed it was impossible to make an artificial penis until the child was in his teens. The parents felt that a penis-less boy would forever be taunted by his playmates and, after seeking advice from a wide variety of specialists, decided to rear the child as a girl. To this end they had the scrotum and testes removed at 17 months. John Money supported the parents&#39; decision and seized on the opportunity to study the pair, using them as an example of the influence of nurture on development of sexual identity. There were early reports from Money that the new girl was developing feminine characteristics, but then the case disappeared from the literature (Money and Ehrhardt, 1972). Unfortunately, developments did not proceed according to what Money predicted, and the child in her teens rejected the female persona and began to live as a man, though one without a penis or testicles. With the benefit of injections of male hormones, he now functions and lives as a man. This only emphasizes that coding of gender is multivariate, sequential, and developmental, reflecting a complex interaction across the boundaries of disciplines and across biological and social variables. There probably are critical periods during which socio-psychological factors have greater influence than the others, but it is not always clear what agents are at work.In fact, the concept that masculinity is the opposite of femininity, has itself been challenged. Instead of an either/or identity, it seems there is a both/and concept. In 1973, Ann Constantinople was a pioneer in questioning the assumption that masculinity was the opposite of femininity and suggested that the identification of masculine traits might be independent from rather than opposite of the identification of feminine traits (Constantinople, 1973). Sandra Bem successfully tested such a hypothesis with her Bem Sex Role Inventory, that treated identification with masculine traits independently of identification with feminine traits (Bem, 1974), and found that men had a wide range of feminine traits, some far more than others, and that women had a wide range of masculine traits and in greater or lesser amounts. Using a variety of scales, including their own, J. T. Spence and R. L. Helmreich found wide variation in gender traits, although they also found that stereotypically masculine personality traits in males were correlated with self-esteem (Spence and Helmreich, 1978). This only serves to emphasize just how much influence society and culture have on self-esteem.

[mauvaise foi]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 09:37 AM
OK, Whoa, slow down, hold your horses Avtomatov.

Right, let me get this completely clear.

You say the womenfolk are falling for you. Is this right? Ok, that&#39;s a good sign.

But then you say you want a sex change?

Like, WTF? :blink:

Can&#39;t you just take the chicks? :cool:

Like, Why aren&#39;t you satisfied?

Man, you can&#39;t be for real.
You certainly have chosen a fitting user name. Congratulations.

[Avtomatov]

hey monica, someone mentioned some tribe were the gender roles are reversed. Could it be that they have all have opposite BStc things for their sex? Has anyone done a study on it? If not you should email the people who did that study you showed us, and tell them to study that tribe.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed
Er...no. SRS improves psychological functioning, fulfillment and overall happiness and satisfaction for nearly everyone who has it.
Er...Yes. Your mind isn&#39;t altered by plastic surgery, sorry.

Fat people who get all the fat sucked out of them are &#39;satisfied&#39; with their operation. Just because transsexuals are &#39;happy&#39; with it doesn&#39;t mean that plastic surgery is justified. Both situations involve self-hate; society shouldn&#39;t promote self-hate by giving everyone a quick fix, they should promote self-worth via support and tolerance of different individuals. By the way, I&#39;m not advocating ending transgender operations under capitalism because intolerance is so rampant that too many people will commit suicide.

However, by committing to the surgery, society and you are both admitting there&#39;s something inherently wrong with you.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 03:37 AM
The case of David Reimer is one that&#39;s used over and over as conclusive proof of biologically perscribed gender roles, but if it is not a valid case. That man didn&#39;t have a "normal" upbringing as a women, he went to meetings twice a year to discuss how much of a girl he was, his parents were probably the least subtle people in the world and not at all prepared for the task of lying to their child, and he was told in his early teens.

However there are a couple of badly documented cases of the opposite happening, for example a women (who was actually a man born without a penis) never having any problems untill her and her boyfriend went to the doctors to find out why she couldn&#39;t get pregnant and being told that she didn&#39;t have a womb and was, biologically, a man.

There&#39;s also a tribe called the Tchambuli in which the gender roles are reversed. Women are dominant and sexually aggressive, and the men portray the stereotypically female traits of dependence, vainity and "*****iness".

I feel that once gender roles are diminished that the number of transgendered people will fall dramatically. The fact that some feel like they should have what is typically an opposite sex personality and interests means nothing more than that they have different interests than most same sex people around them. To imply that because of this they need to change biological sex perpetuates these roles.

However, if they just wish to have a different body, and they feel it will dramatically improve their lives, then I see no reason they shouldn&#39;t be able to. I, not being transgendered, have no idea how they feel, so cannot actually say anything of any real merit.
Source? Why does this mean anything? Are you saying a reinforcement of someone&#39;s gender role from an early age will make someone rebel against that gender role? Men are encouraged and reminded that they are men all the time, and I imagine it is the same for women.

[Avtomatov]

what is the name of this tribe i hear mentioned? And were can i find information?

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+Oct 10 2006, 10:36 PM--> (MonicaTTmed &#064; Oct 10 2006, 10:36 PM)
Darth [email protected] 10 2006, 11:08 AM
Avtomatov its stupid to have a SRS (sex reassignment surgery) while you&#39;re still a teenager wait until you grow up or you will end up regretting it
Right, because everything teenagers do they end up regretting.
:rolleyes:

There is a study on this, I&#39;ll get it later. [/b]
I wasnt talking to you can u stfu k ? thx

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Darth Revan+Oct 11 2006, 03:01 AM--> (Darth Revan @ Oct 11 2006, 03:01 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 10:36 PM

Darth [email protected] 10 2006, 11:08 AM
Avtomatov its stupid to have a SRS (sex reassignment surgery) while you&#39;re still a teenager wait until you grow up or you will end up regretting it
Right, because everything teenagers do they end up regretting.
:rolleyes:

There is a study on this, I&#39;ll get it later.
I wasnt talking to you can u stfu k ? thx ***** [/b]
Nope. Every post on an INTERNET forum is an open invitation for people to answer, deride, or completely destroy. Millions of kids make the choice to go to university, and a minority of them regret it.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by Darth Revan+Oct 11 2006, 08:01 AM--> (Darth Revan @ Oct 11 2006, 08:01 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 10:36 PM

Darth [email protected] 10 2006, 11:08 AM
Avtomatov its stupid to have a SRS (sex reassignment surgery) while you&#39;re still a teenager wait until you grow up or you will end up regretting it
Right, because everything teenagers do they end up regretting.
:rolleyes:

There is a study on this, I&#39;ll get it later.
I wasnt talking to you can u stfu k ? thx ***** [/b]
Did you really need to use the ***** word? <_<

[RevMARKSman]

However, by committing to the surgery, society and you are both admitting there&#39;s something inherently wrong with you.


No. Fucking. Shit? Something went wrong in the uterus, which resulted in a biological sex being different from the brain&#39;s identity.


Your core identity, which cannot be changed, is in conflict with your biological sex. You have three options.

1. Change your sex. (resolves the conflict)
2. Change your identity (impossible)
3. Live with the conflict with no way to resolve it (essentially be depressed and emo the rest of your life)

Pick one, the one that seems best to you.

"Fat" people have only been told they are too fat by society. There is no integral part of the identity that says "thin." That&#39;s the difference.

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:54 AM

However, by committing to the surgery, society and you are both admitting there&#39;s something inherently wrong with you.


No. Fucking. Shit? Something went wrong in the uterus, which resulted in a biological sex being different from the brain&#39;s identity.


Your core identity, which cannot be changed, is in conflict with your biological sex. You have three options.

1. Change your sex. (resolves the conflict)
2. Change your identity (impossible)
3. Live with the conflict with no way to resolve it (essentially be depressed and emo the rest of your life)

Pick one, the one that seems best to you.

"Fat" people have only been told they are too fat by society. There is no integral part of the identity that says "thin." That&#39;s the difference.
I doubt its something that got wrong in the uterus its all in you&#39;re brain man
it isn&#39;t some genetic flaw
p.s sorry about the ***** word :( i tend to get angry after i smoke weed :(

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Darth Revan+Oct 11 2006, 12:48 PM--> (Darth Revan @ Oct 11 2006, 12:48 PM)
[email protected] 11 2006, 10:54 AM

However, by committing to the surgery, society and you are both admitting there&#39;s something inherently wrong with you.


No. Fucking. Shit? Something went wrong in the uterus, which resulted in a biological sex being different from the brain&#39;s identity.


Your core identity, which cannot be changed, is in conflict with your biological sex. You have three options.

1. Change your sex. (resolves the conflict)
2. Change your identity (impossible)
3. Live with the conflict with no way to resolve it (essentially be depressed and emo the rest of your life)

Pick one, the one that seems best to you.

"Fat" people have only been told they are too fat by society. There is no integral part of the identity that says "thin." That&#39;s the difference.
I doubt its something that got wrong in the uterus its all in you&#39;re brain man
it isn&#39;t some genetic flaw
p.s sorry about the ***** word :( i tend to get angry after i smoke weed :( [/b]
Wow, how do you know that? Stumbled across some new research have you?

And who gets angry when they&#39;re stoned? :wacko:

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by Mujer Libre+Oct 11 2006, 01:03 PM--> (Mujer Libre @ Oct 11 2006, 01:03 PM)
Originally posted by Darth [email protected] 11 2006, 12:48 PM

[email protected] 11 2006, 10:54 AM

However, by committing to the surgery, society and you are both admitting there&#39;s something inherently wrong with you.


No. Fucking. Shit? Something went wrong in the uterus, which resulted in a biological sex being different from the brain&#39;s identity.


Your core identity, which cannot be changed, is in conflict with your biological sex. You have three options.

1. Change your sex. (resolves the conflict)
2. Change your identity (impossible)
3. Live with the conflict with no way to resolve it (essentially be depressed and emo the rest of your life)

Pick one, the one that seems best to you.

"Fat" people have only been told they are too fat by society. There is no integral part of the identity that says "thin." That&#39;s the difference.
I doubt its something that got wrong in the uterus its all in you&#39;re brain man
it isn&#39;t some genetic flaw
p.s sorry about the ***** word :( i tend to get angry after i smoke weed :(
Wow, how do you know that? Stumbled across some new research have you?

And who gets angry when they&#39;re stoned? :wacko: [/b]
no after that

[D_Bokk]

Why do you always ignore the bulk of my argument?

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed
Nope. Every post on an INTERNET forum is an open invitation for people to answer, deride, or completely destroy. Millions of kids make the choice to go to university, and a minority of them regret it.
Many of them regret not knowing what to major in college and spending their first years doing basically nothing.

No. Fucking. Shit? Something went wrong in the uterus, which resulted in a biological sex being different from the brain&#39;s identity.
It has nothing to do with the uterus and everything to do with society and insecurity. You aren&#39;t genetically meant to be a woman, why can&#39;t you just admit that?

Your core identity, which cannot be changed, is in conflict with your biological sex. You have three options.

1. Change your sex. (resolves the conflict)
2. Change your identity (impossible)
3. Live with the conflict with no way to resolve it (essentially be depressed and emo the rest of your life)

Pick one, the one that seems best to you.
4. Stop being a baby and accept everything about you.

"Fat" people have only been told they are too fat by society. There is no integral part of the identity that says "thin." That&#39;s the difference.
And men are told they need to: play football, drink beer, love cars, be a Mr. Fix-It and provide for their family by society. There&#39;s no difference.

[Avtomatov]

Actually D_bokk, monica is a woman, she wants to be a man.

[A CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 10:25 PM
Im restricted so I have to post this here.

What does everyone think about sex changes? Are they bourgeoise decadence?

And for the people that have seen my pic in livechat, do you think i would make a good looking woman? I think I would.
Is it bourgeoise? Don&#39;t know and don&#39;t care. You can do whatever you want with your body. Who is anyone to tell you its wrong.

[RevMARKSman]

It has nothing to do with the uterus and everything to do with society and insecurity. You aren&#39;t genetically meant to be a woman, why can&#39;t you just admit that?

MEANT?

WHO THE FUCK "MEANT"?

"nature" has a consciousness now?
"God"?
A teapot orbiting Mars?
Who the fuck is to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body?



4. Stop being a baby and accept everything about you.

Yeah. Riiight. Pretend you can change a part of your consciousness that can&#39;t be changed. The truth is, if you let that conflict persist, you&#39;re going to have emotional issues.


And men are told they need to: play football, drink beer, love cars, be a Mr. Fix-It and provide for their family by society. There&#39;s no difference.

When gender roles die out in communism, there will be "feminine" men.
There will be follower men. There will be leader women, "masculine" women.

But some will not be satisfied with being women, no matter how "feminine" or "masculine" or whatever they happen to be. Some really do want to be men biologically, and can&#39;t stop wanting, because that desire is something about them they can&#39;t change. They will end up being men, whether "feminine" or "masculine" or something else.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by Avtomatov+--> (Avtomatov) Actually D_bokk, monica is a woman, she wants to be a man.[/b]
Whatever, it doesn&#39;t really matter which one is switching.

MonicaTTmed
MEANT?

WHO THE FUCK "MEANT"?

"nature" has a consciousness now?
"God"?
A teapot orbiting Mars?
Who the fuck is to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body?
Very poor and rather emotional argument. If you were meant to be born of the opposite sex, then you would have been. Simple concept, I&#39;m not saying you must follow societal gender roles because of that 50/50 chance, I&#39;m saying there&#39;s absolutely no reason for transgender operations to even exist in communism.

Yeah. Riiight. Pretend you can change a part of your consciousness that can&#39;t be changed. The truth is, if you let that conflict persist, you&#39;re going to have emotional issues.
Your fucking body has nothing to do with your mind. Saying otherwise means you&#39;re a very vain person.

When gender roles die out in communism, there will be "feminine" men.
There will be follower men. There will be leader women, "masculine" women.

But some will not be satisfied with being women, no matter how "feminine" or "masculine" or whatever they happen to be. Some really do want to be men biologically, and can&#39;t stop wanting, because that desire is something about them they can&#39;t change. They will end up being men, whether "feminine" or "masculine" or something else.
That first paragraph is quite sexist, in my opinion. Which further proves my guess that society makes transsexuals homophobic and/or sexist. There&#39;s no such thing as "feminine" men or "masculine" women unless you accept the gender roles in society. Do you?

Appearances are stupid.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by D_Bokk+Oct 11 2006, 08:43 PM--> (D_Bokk @ Oct 11 2006, 08:43 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected]
Actually D_bokk, monica is a woman, she wants to be a man.
Whatever, it doesn&#39;t really matter which one is switching.

MonicaTTmed
MEANT?

WHO THE FUCK "MEANT"?

"nature" has a consciousness now?
"God"?
A teapot orbiting Mars?
Who the fuck is to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body?
Very poor and rather emotional argument. If you were meant to be born of the opposite sex, then you would have been. Simple concept, I&#39;m not saying you must follow societal gender roles because of that 50/50 chance, I&#39;m saying there&#39;s absolutely no reason for transgender operations to even exist in communism.

Yeah. Riiight. Pretend you can change a part of your consciousness that can&#39;t be changed. The truth is, if you let that conflict persist, you&#39;re going to have emotional issues.
Your fucking body has nothing to do with your mind. Saying otherwise means you&#39;re a very vain person.

When gender roles die out in communism, there will be "feminine" men.
There will be follower men. There will be leader women, "masculine" women.

But some will not be satisfied with being women, no matter how "feminine" or "masculine" or whatever they happen to be. Some really do want to be men biologically, and can&#39;t stop wanting, because that desire is something about them they can&#39;t change. They will end up being men, whether "feminine" or "masculine" or something else.
That first paragraph is quite sexist, in my opinion. Which further proves my guess that society makes transsexuals homophobic and/or sexist. There&#39;s no such thing as "feminine" men or "masculine" women unless you accept the gender roles in society. Do you?

Appearances are stupid. [/b]

That first paragraph is quite sexist, in my opinion. Which further proves my guess that society makes transsexuals homophobic and/or sexist. There&#39;s no such thing as "feminine" men or "masculine" women unless you accept the gender roles in society. Do you?


There is a REASON I put "masculine" and "feminine" in quotes. And no, it&#39;s not too hard to figure out. If you&#39;re going to make baseless allegations, at least admit they&#39;re baseless.


Your fucking body has nothing to do with your mind. Saying otherwise means you&#39;re a very vain person.

Since when? The mind is affected by hormones, the same way the body is.


If you were meant to be born of the opposite sex, then you would have been.

Again, that "meant." again. Meant by whom? There is no "intent" in cells or chemicals.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed
There is a REASON I put "masculine" and "feminine" in quotes. And no, it&#39;s not too hard to figure out. If you&#39;re going to make baseless allegations, at least admit they&#39;re baseless.
Right...

You&#39;re trying to justify communist transgender surgery, but you use words to describe your argument that you actually don&#39;t "mean." How about you share with us what you really meant, without the sexist quotes?

Since when? The mind is affected by hormones, the same way the body is.
What kind of question is that? Vain&#39;s definition is focusing so much on appearances...

Again, that "meant." again. Meant by whom? There is no "intent" in cells or chemicals.
Meant by your Dad&#39;s sperm.

[RevMARKSman]

Right...

You&#39;re trying to justify communist transgender surgery, but you use words to describe your argument that you actually don&#39;t "mean." How about you share with us what you really meant, without the sexist quotes?

Okay.

I will retype my argument clearly so there isn&#39;t anything to misinterpret.

Then again... :rolleyes:


When gender roles die out in communism, there will be men that in today&#39;s capitalist society would be considered "feminine." There will be women that in today&#39;s capitalist society would be considered "masculine."

But some will not be satisfied with being women or men, no matter how in contradiction of today&#39;s capitalist gender roles they happen to be. Some really do want to be men/women biologically, and can&#39;t stop wanting, because that desire is something about them they can&#39;t change. They will end up being men or women, respectively.


What kind of question is that? Vain&#39;s definition is focusing so much on appearances...

I was saying, since when does the mind have nothing to do with the body?

Then I explained.


Meant by your Dad&#39;s sperm.

Like I said, cells don&#39;t have self-awareness therefore they don&#39;t have intent or "meaning."

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 10:44 AM
When gender roles die out in communism
Who said gender roles will "die out in communism"?

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by .+Oct 12 2006, 08:04 AM--> (. @ Oct 12 2006, 08:04 AM)
[email protected] 12 2006, 10:44 AM
When gender roles die out in communism
Who said gender roles will "die out in communism"? [/b]
I was assuming that gender roles were social constructs, but if they aren&#39;t I&#39;ll be glad to see some evidence.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed
When gender roles die out in communism, there will be men that in today&#39;s capitalist society would be considered "feminine." There will be women that in today&#39;s capitalist society would be considered "masculine."
Might as well have copy and pasted your previous statement.

But some will not be satisfied with being women or men, no matter how in contradiction of today&#39;s capitalist gender roles they happen to be. Some really do want to be men/women biologically, and can&#39;t stop wanting, because that desire is something about them they can&#39;t change. They will end up being men or women, respectively.
You don&#39;t have one example to prove your claim, nor does it pertain any rational logic whatsoever.

Every gay man who takes the role of a woman in a capitalist society is proof as to why my argument holds more weight than yours. When gender roles are completely eliminated, then that weaker people who would generally have a transgender surgery would have no motive to do so.

I was saying, since when does the mind have nothing to do with the body?
Since the mind controls the body.

Like I said, cells don&#39;t have self-awareness therefore they don&#39;t have intent or "meaning."
Oh please.

You know damn well what I was saying. Genetics and nature caused you to be a woman (or man, I honestly don&#39;t know what you were in the beginning.) There&#39;s a base reason behind this, that reason being the sperm.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+Oct 12 2006, 05:12 PM--> (MonicaTTmed @ Oct 12 2006, 05:12 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 08:04 AM

[email protected] 12 2006, 10:44 AM
When gender roles die out in communism
Who said gender roles will "die out in communism"?
I was assuming that gender roles were social constructs, but if they aren&#39;t I&#39;ll be glad to see some evidence. [/b]
If I have any say in the matter gender roles will die out in a post-capitalist society. They really are quite useless and only inhibit liberation. They are similar to patriarchy, sexism, chauvinism, racism, they all contribute in one way or another to the perpetuation of capitalism.

[YSR]

Originally posted by D_Bokk
Your fucking body has nothing to do with your mind.

Materialists accept that the mind is actually just a construction of the body. The mind actually doesn&#39;t exist as some type of Cartesian abstraction. Your opinion is incredibly antimaterialist.

If someone decides that their birth sex is not the correct one, I fail to see why you should do anything to stop them. The anarchist perception of gender is like most issues of the personal: it&#39;s up to the person in question. Do you dispute this? How can you justify this type of authority?

Furthermore, I would ask any admin reading this to give Darth Revan a warning point for this incredbily sexist bullshit comment:


I wasnt talking to you can u stfu k ? thx *****

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by Young Stupid Radical
If someone decides that their birth sex is not the correct one, I fail to see why you should do anything to stop them. The anarchist perception of gender is like most issues of the personal: it&#39;s up to the person in question. Do you dispute this? How can you justify this type of authority?
Please show me where I&#39;ve ever even hinted at stopping someone from getting a sex change. If someone was so inclined to do the surgery on themselves, I seriously couldn&#39;t care less.

My gripe comes with the fact that the community is putting valuable resources (ie medical research and people-power) towards such a blatantly conceited practice. Plastic surgery in it&#39;s whole should be completely wiped off the face of this earth because not only is it a waste of time, but it perpetuates self-hate. What&#39;s more authoritarian, not having plastic surgeons or having everyone put up to a certain standard of beauty?

[YSR]

Prove how it could possibly "perpetuate self-hate."

Isn&#39;t just the opposite, that is to say, someone currently feels "hatred" towards the sex they were born into and want to change to feel more appropriate, therefore with less "self-hatred"?

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by Young Stupid Radical
Prove how it could possibly "perpetuate self-hate."
If plastic surgery existed in communism, people will use it. Since communism wont have any currency, anyone and everyone can get breast implants, nose surgery and liposuction. As more and more people do it, the cultural acceptance of beauty will be closely related to standards that can only be achieved by the knife. Therefore even more people will contemplate their appearance and decide to destroy their nervous system in order to be attractive. Their insecurity will lead them to lose all feeling in their their face, breasts, nose and in some cases, sexual organs in order to be attractive for other people. They&#39;re mutilating their body because it&#39;s not "good" enough. Hence, self-hate.

Isn&#39;t just the opposite, that is to say, someone currently feels "hatred" towards the sex they were born into and want to change to feel more appropriate, therefore with less "self-hatred"?
Their body, untainted by mutilation, is part of their self. However, the transsexual completely cuts up their body to make a drastic change. How is it any different from a emo wrist-cutter? The wrist-cutter likes the feeling from cutting themselves, does that mean it&#39;s okay?

Also, you would then be defining yourself by your material possessions (ie makeshift penis, breast implants) and therefore become part of the bourgeois.

[RevMARKSman]

The wrist-cutter likes the feeling from cutting themselves, does that mean it&#39;s okay?

Yeah.

They can be offered support if they want it, but in the end it&#39;s up to the individual.


Also, you would then be defining yourself by your material possessions (ie makeshift penis, breast implants) and therefore become part of the bourgeois.

Shock fucking horror&#33; Material possessions&#33;

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 10:12 PM
I was assuming that gender roles were social constructs, but if they aren&#39;t I&#39;ll be glad to see some evidence.
Of course gender roles are social constructs, so are most things in civilized society.

Love is a social construct too, so is science, and psychology, and.....are you saying all of those will "die out in communism" too?

Of course not. You have to distinguish between social constructs which came into being as a progression of mankind and civilization, and social constructs which came into being as part of the exploitative character of the upper classes.

Gender roles have existed since the dawn of civilization, ever since humans have existed actually. Men went out hunting while women stayed at the cave and took care of the children, processed the food etc. That wasn&#39;t exploitative for the women, that was what the women did, that was their natural role as women, that was their gender role. Just like how it was the gender role of the stronger sex to go out hunting and risk death, or later on to fight in wars and such.

Later on as civilization progressed the amount of women fitting male gender roles increased as well as the amount of men fitting female gender roles. It&#39;s actually very natural since gender roles today aren&#39;t as important as they were in those times; if a woman wants to go out and have a job instead of having children, who can stop them? Who should stop them? Only the ignorant will have objections to that, yet even in today&#39;s society there are signs of gender roles amongst the vast majority of people.

Girls while they are young play with barbie&#39;s and like pony&#39;s, boys play with action figures and play out battles with their toy soldiers, is that not a gender role?

Women predominantly watch shows like "Sex And The City" while men predominantly watch sports, is that not a gender role?

You have to agree that there are some things men do a lot more (or less) and some things that women do a lot more (or less) than the other gender. Those are all gender roles, and some of those will never "die out". I understand that you weren&#39;t referring to most of those gender roles, but were specifically referring to the gender role of "men go to work, women stay at home", of course that will "die out", it is already beginning to die out, but that gender role has nothing to do with the physiological differences in males and females, it used to make a difference because men were physically stronger and therefore had the role of working, but nowadays anyone can sit behind a desk and do the job.

So yeah, you were right about that specific gender role dying out, but gender roles overall? Definitely not. Men and women are different, and they will never be the same in their physiological make-up, therefore they will always have different gender roles.

EDIT: And everyone in this thread who opposes sex-changes is ignorant of the phenomenon.

A woman or man who want&#39;s a sex-change is psychologically built as the other sex, they were "supposed to be...", and since technology and science now allows for their psychological needs to be met, they should definitely take the opportunity.

[LuXe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 09:49 PM
Actually D_bokk, monica is a woman, she wants to be a man.
How old is monica who wants to be a man?

[TC]

There is so much mystical, non-materialist dogma on both sides here.

Gender role is a wholely socially constructed phenomenon that doesn&#39;t exist in the same manner in scenarios where the material economic conditions don&#39;t support it.

Priminitive communist societies don&#39;t typically have a division of labor and therefore don&#39;t have gender role. Likewise, feudal royality so removed from labor and class interaction didn&#39;t either. Gender role as such exists in a strong way only in situations where theres a stark division of labor, which is in the case of most of the population in feudal agricultural civilization, and portions of the population in capitalist industrial civilization.


Originally posted by Marxism&#045;Leninism

Of course not. You have to distinguish between social constructs which came into being as a progression of mankind and civilization, and social constructs which came into being as part of the exploitative character of the upper classes.

Gender roles have existed since the dawn of civilization, ever since humans have existed actually. Men went out hunting while women stayed at the cave and took care of the children, processed the food etc. That wasn&#39;t exploitative for the women, that was what the women did, that was their natural role as women, that was their gender role. Just like how it was the gender role of the stronger sex to go out hunting and risk death, or later on to fight in wars and such.

You don&#39;t seem to really get it. Social constructs follow from the means of production, the &#39;upper classes&#39; don&#39;t have an &#39;exploitive character&#39; apart from their relation to the means of production. In other words you&#39;re making a distinction where none exists.


Gender roles have existed since the dawn of civilization, ever since humans have existed actually.

Thats purely speculative and probably untrue. Most hunter/gather primitive communist societies make distinctions between sexes but don&#39;t have any real patriarchal heirarchy as such because their mode of production isn&#39;t very depedent on, say, upper body strength as pre-industrial agriculture is.

The cultural materialist (marxist) anthropologist Marvin Harris argued that the use of animal-driven iron plows in agricultural, a farming technique that both gives a huge productive advantage over more primitive forms of farming and requires a lot of upper body strength and weight, began significant social division between men and women as unlike primitive slash-and-burn agriculture and hunter-gather production which employ women and men in equal numbers.

This of course matchs the actual data, in that while there are many examples of egalitarian or even weakly matriarchal hunter-gather tribes, and many primitive agricultural psudo-civilizations had such weakly divided gender roles that they even employed men and women equally in military roles, virtually all iron aged agricultural civilizations have been heavily patriarchal, far more so than industrial civilization.

As Marxists you need to base your politics on material phenomon of society not on backwards projecting speculation.


Girls while they are young play with barbie&#39;s and like pony&#39;s, boys play with action figures and play out battles with their toy soldiers, is that not a gender role?


No its a preference, its not a role.


So yeah, you were right about that specific gender role dying out, but gender roles overall? Definitely not. Men and women are different, and they will never be the same in their physiological make-up, therefore they will always have different gender roles.

Tall people and short people, diabetics and non-diabetics, etc, also have different physiological make ups, it doesn&#39;t follow that they have different roles, thats absurd.


A woman or man who want&#39;s a sex-change is psychologically built as the other sex, they were "supposed to be...",

You can&#39;t be "psychologically built as the other sex" because sex-depedent differences in psychology are only statistical trends not absolute differences. For instance, while statistically, women are more likely to do better on verbal tasks and men are more likely to do better on spacial tasks, this simply represents a different statistical trend not an absolute difference as a huge minority of men do better on verbal tasks and a huge minority of women do better on spacial tasks. These people aren&#39;t "psychologically built as the other sex" nor are they not the sex they&#39;re "supposed to be", they are simply on one side of the statistical norm.


For instance, women are on average smaller than men, but when you have a woman who is larger than an average man you don&#39;t say that she is "sized as the other sex" and therefore not the "sex she&#39;s supposed to be", because these are not absolute differences.


The only absolute differences are chromosomes and genitalia in that those are the differences that the definitions of male and female are derived from. There is no such thing as a male or female mind or psychology, only psychological types slightly more common in men and psychological types slightly more common in women (if that).

[Avtomatov]

Do you guys think the general male is inherently more violent and dominating?

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Darth [email protected] 7 2006, 10:51 PM
Transexuals Scare me :(
specially when they cant dress LOL and the look like a dude with a hang over hahah

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+Oct 14 2006, 04:22 AM--> (R_P_A_S @ Oct 14 2006, 04:22 AM)
Darth [email protected] 7 2006, 10:51 PM
Transexuals Scare me :(
specially when they cant dress LOL and the look like a dude with a hang over hahah [/b]
LOL

[Avtomatov]

You two should be restricted or banned for those comments.

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by Avtomatov
You two should be restricted or banned for those comments.
Not really.

Heterosexuals are disgusted by the thought of having sex with someone of the same sex just as homosexuals are disgusted over having sex with the opposite sex. That&#39;s why neither of those two groups are bisexual... shits just not attractive.

[Darth Revan]

Avtomatov Chill Dude

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+October 14, 2006 04:21 pm--> (R_P_A_S &#064; October 14, 2006 04:21 pm)
Originally posted by Darth Revan+Oct 7 2006, 10:51 PM--> (Darth Revan &#064; Oct 7 2006, 10:51 PM) Transexuals Scare me :( [/b]
specially when they cant dress LOL and the look like a dude with a hang over hahah [/b]
Saying &#39;transexuals scare me&#39; is extremely offensive, your post not only legitimised Darth Raven&#39;s transphobia but reinforced it, agreeing with Darth Raven&#39;s comment you then contexualised/personalised his transphobia with your opinion on what is particularly &#39;scary&#39; about trans people, that is text-book transphobia.

It&#39;s not &#39;funny&#39; to laugh or make jokes about trans people, least of all to joke about how &#39;scary&#39; you may find &#39;them&#39;. The board does not tolerate transphobia anymore than we tolerate heterosexism, racism or sexism.

If someone had said, &#39;Latinos scare me&#39;,

and then someone chimed in, agreeing with them, and givin&#39; a specific (and derogatory) example of how Latinos &#39;scare&#39; them, they would be warned for racism.

Is that justified? Or is it okay to think that Latinos are &#39;scary&#39;? Lesbians? Gay men? Black people?


Originally posted by Darth Raven
LOL

What are you laughing at?

Transphobia is funny to you?


Darth [email protected]
Avtomatov Chill Dude

Huh?

You make ignorant, offensive statements, and when someone gets offended you tell them to &#39;chill&#39;?

Why on earth should anyone &#39;chill&#39; about this? Transphobia is a serious issue, it&#39;s not a joke, if you&#39;re gonna make ignorant and prejudiced statements you should EXPECT to get called on them.

People will &#39;chill&#39; when transphobia and other social prejudices are no longer an issue, as this thread demonstrates, we&#39;ve got a long way to go on the &#39;revolutionary left&#39;.



D Bokk
Not really.

Heterosexuals are disgusted by the thought of having sex with someone of the same sex just as homosexuals are disgusted over having sex with the opposite sex. That&#39;s why neither of those two groups are bisexual... shits just not attractive.

Right, so because Darth Raven is not trans it&#39;s natural for him to find trans people scary? :rolleyes:

Moreover, &#39;not being attracted&#39; and &#39;disgusted&#39; do not go hand-in-hand, honestly, finding sex disgusting simply because the people involved are of the same sex or not is immature, and well idiotic - it&#39;s just humans&#33; I mean you dont have to get turned on, or &#39;like&#39; it, but digust? That is a pretty strong, emotive word to use.

This analogy is also a nice way to potentially disguise real heterosexism, &#39;uh, im got nothing&#39; against gay people, i just find em disgusting, and like em havin&#39; sex digusting, not coz im homophobic, it&#39;s coz im heterosexual you know?&#39; And when i say it can potentially disguise heterosexism, i mean ive talked to heterosexists who maintain that actual position&#33;

[BurnTheOliveTree]

The more I listen to you about discrimination, Black Dagger, the more I nod my head in agreement. You get it right, every damn time. :)


Darth Revan and R_P_A_S - The way to check for any possibly discriminating remarks is replace your operative word, in this case "transexuals" with "blacks".

Think "Black scare me. :("
"LOL me too especially when they can&#39;t blush"

-Alex

[D_Bokk]

Originally posted by Black Dagger
Right, so because Darth Raven is not trans it&#39;s natural for him to find trans people scary?
Nope, but thanks for asking the same question you asked a while back. I bet it makes you look even more intelligent the second time around.

Moreover, &#39;not being attracted&#39; and &#39;disgusted&#39; do not go hand-in-hand, honestly, finding sex disgusting simply because the people involved are of the same sex or not is immature, and well idiotic - it&#39;s just humans&#33; I mean you dont have to get turned on, or &#39;like&#39; it, but digust? That is a pretty strong, emotive word to use.
Saying things like: "I don&#39;t like," "it doesn&#39;t turn me on," and "it&#39;s just not attractive" is basically saying "disgust" but in a nicer way. Just because you surround everything you say with clutter to make it as neutral as possible doesn&#39;t hide the fact that it means the same thing as the one word "disgust."

Excuse me for being s upfront and not beating around the bush on every issue. Maybe we would get a lot more accomplished if people stopped filling their paragraphs with useless trash and cut right to the chase. Of course, if we did that then you wouldn&#39;t have anything to say... but I think that would be for the best.

This analogy is also a nice way to potentially disguise real heterosexism, &#39;uh, im got nothing&#39; against gay people, i just find em disgusting, and like em havin&#39; sex digusting, not coz im homophobic, it&#39;s coz im heterosexual you know?&#39; And when i say it can potentially disguise heterosexism, i mean ive talked to heterosexists who maintain that actual position&#33;
Did I say I find homosexuals or the act of placing my penis inside someone&#39;s poop shoot disgusting?

[LoneRed]

I think that we should analyze the causes of becoming a transexual, as from what ive learned its usually a man dressing like a women, who likes to have sex with men, yes it can take other forms but this seems like the dominant one. I will not discriminate them, but what is their reason for this. Is it a cover up of being homosexual, they feel that a heterosexual relationship is the right one, so they will dress up like women. what could cause this?

[RevMARKSman]

as from what ive learned its usually a man dressing like a women, who likes to have sex with men, yes it can take other forms but this seems like the dominant one.

A. That&#39;s not the "dominant" form; it&#39;s just the one portrayed by the media the most.
B. You left a whole lot of shit out of this issue. Like...hmmm...gender identity.

http://symposion.com/ijt/gilbert/bullough.htm

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by LoneRed+--> (LoneRed)as from what ive learned its usually a man dressing like a women, who likes to have sex with men, yes it can take other forms but this seems like the dominant one.[/b]

So basically what you&#39;re saying is, a trans person is a gay man who likes to wear women&#39;s clothes? :blink:

In reality, transsexuality is not restricted to &#39;men&#39; or &#39;women&#39;.

A trans person is merely someone who identifies with the gender/sex opposite to their biological sex or the biological sex assigned to them at birth.

It has NOTHING to do with sexual intercourse, &#39;liking&#39; to have sex with men or women, it&#39;s NOT a &#39;sexual preference&#39;.

Many pre-op trans people choose to dress to suit their correct sex, once you have undergone gender re-assignment surgery you will be the correct sex, so the idea &#39;suiting&#39; your sex becomes redundant. Regardless, neither pre-op or post-op trans people are &#39;cross-dressers&#39;, as &#39;cross-dressers&#39; by definition dress in the clothes of the opposite sex, where as trans people dress in the clothes of their actual sex.


Originally posted by [email protected]

I will not discriminate them, but what is their reason for this.

This is not known, though in some cases it can relate to the assignment of sex at birth, with doctors choosing to assign a sex to a child with &#39;ambiguous&#39; genitalia. When the child grows up it becomes apparent that the sex assigned to them at birth does not reflect their true sex.


LR
Is it a cover up of being homosexual, they feel that a heterosexual relationship is the right one, so they will dress up like women. what could cause this?

NO.

Gender dysphoria has nothing to do with homosexuality, that is a rather ignorant myth.

It makes no sense and completely ignores the central issue, gender identity.

Trans people don&#39;t &#39;feel&#39; like they want to have sex with people of the same-sex, they &#39;feel&#39; like their sex does not reflect their correct gender identity, that is motivation behind gender re-assignment surgery, to correct this inconsistency, it has nothing to do with an individuals sexuality or a desire to have sex with people of the same-sex or whatever the &#39;closet theory&#39; of transsexuality suggests.

A further refutation of this assertion, trans people cover a range of sexualities, lesbian/gay/bi/hetero/etc. everything and anything, the commonality between trans people relates to gender identity not sexuality, i&#39;m not sure why you would get this impression?

[TC]

Hey BlackDagger,

I remember that before the rollback when the site was offline, you posted that you thought crossdressers were &#39;transvestic fetishists&#39;, have you reviewed that rather prejudiced position when i called you on it or are just just self-censuring in the new version of this post?

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by TC+--> (TC)I remember that before the rollback when the site was offline, you posted that you thought crossdressers were &#39;transvestic fetishists&#39;, have you reviewed that rather prejudiced position when i called you on it or are just just self-censuring in the new version of this post? [/b]

Please, you completely distorted what i said because of your own ignorance, not mine, i said no such thing.

I suppose you never read my long-ass reply to your original distortion did you? :rolleyes:

Now that its been wiped i&#39;ll have to re-write it since you&#39;ve decided to repeat already refuted slander, honestly TC, you&#39;re a fucking time burglar&#33; :angry:

You didnt&#39; &#39;call&#39; me on anything, i replied in full to your trolling, and made plain your own ignorance. This is precisely what motivated your attack on me in the first place, from your own position of ignorance you wrongly conflated trans and non-trans people who &#39;cross-dress&#39;, and you accused me of being transphobic for stating that non-trans people may cross-dress because of a sexual fetish (which is a fact).

You wrongly alledged that this was &#39;transphobic&#39; or insulting to trans people, which again, only shows your ignorance.

How on earth can stating one of many reasons why NON-trans people &#39;cross-dress&#39; possibly be insulting to trans people?

The comment was not directed at trans people nor is it by any stretch insulting to trans people. If a statement is neither directed at, or about trans people, or otherwise insulting to trans people, how the fuck can it be transphobic?&#33; :wacko:

The point being made was that people wrongly conflate trans and non-trans people (because of &#39;cross-dressing), a point completely lost on you it seems.

In the post of mine to which you are referring/distorting, i was explaining this difference to another member, contrasting trans people who &#39;cross dress&#39; with non-trans people who &#39;cross dress&#39;, i.e. that trans people &#39;cross dress&#39; because of issues related to gender identity, i.e. they are trans, and are dressing to suit their correct gender/sex.

And by contrast, in many cases, non-trans people &#39;cross-dress&#39; because it turns them on (i.e. transvestic fetishism) - this is common, and by no means a controversial statement. Moreover, as i said in my reply to your last trolling post, also in many cases non-trans people &#39;cross dress&#39; for political reasons, i.e. gender-fucking, which is something i do occasionally, or perhaps because they like the &#39;feel&#39; of the clothes etc., for many many reasons.

The critical point is that for non-trans people &#39;cross dressing&#39; is not about expressing ones true gender or sex (as they are not trans), rather as stated above, it can be for a number of unrelated reasons, because it turns you on, political reasons, or something completely idiosyncratic - but it&#39;s not the same as being trans, and the two should NOT be conflated which is precisely what you are doing.

Now i would appreciate if you&#39;d stop mis-representin&#39;/makin up shit about me, and address what ive actually said here, cheers big ears :)


TC
have you reviewed that rather prejudiced position when i called you on it or are just just self-censuring in the new version of this post?

This is the thing, i havent &#39;reviewed&#39; my position nor am i &#39;self-censuring&#39;, my position is exactly the same as it was a week ago or whenever the board was wiped, there is nothing inconsistent with my last post in this thread and the post from the CC which you are talking about it.

Again that you would assume that there is a conflict or inconsistency between what ive said in this thread and what i said last week is due to your own mis-reading/ignorance on this subject.

Why?

Because in this thread im talkin about trans people, in the other thread, the comment to which you refer was about non-trans people who &#39;cross-dress&#39;, for the last time, they&#39;re not the same&#33;&#33;&#33; So please stop conflating them. That is the problem here, you don&#39;t seem to understand that these are two different dicussions.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 02:07 pm
How old is monica who wants to be a man?
Isn&#39;t she like 12? I wonder if her parents know that she&#39;s on a communist forum telling us that she wants to be a man. Anyway, this thread should be renamed to "FedEX", because it delivers. One of the funnier threads since "@nti-dialectics made easy". Seems to have claimed a few previously unrestricted people, too. :lol:

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Matthijs
isn&#39;t she like 12? I wonder if her parents know that she&#39;s on a communist forum telling us that she wants to be a man.

What was the point of this?

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+November 01, 2006 09:18 am--> (Black Dagger @ November 01, 2006 09:18 am)
Matthijs
isn&#39;t she like 12? I wonder if her parents know that she&#39;s on a communist forum telling us that she wants to be a man.

What was the point of this? [/b]
That&#39;s exactly what I was thinking.

And people wonder why we say OI is a shithole...

[Wanted Man]

A mix of amusement and honest curiosity. These last two posts are great examples of how you humorless anarchists make such fine lol-cows. It&#39;s just so easy to milk some lulz out of you. Moo, moo&#33; Heh. Anyway, no need to worry. There is not a conspiracy to put women back in the household and children back in the factories behind everything.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2006 10:16 pm
A mix of amusement and honest curiosity. These last two posts are great examples of how you humorless anarchists make such fine lol-cows. I
Right, so you were trying to belittle Monica, forgive me for not loling at your hilarious joke :(

[Darth Revan]

hmm guess i was wrong anyway sorry i don&#39;t except anyone to accept my apology I&#39;m an asshole and i admit it