redanarchist.org

[chimx]

the raan hub, redanarchist.org, is finally up and working again. sorry sorry sorry for the long ass delays.

[2ormore]

why
(is anarchy)are anarchists always associated to an idea,be it against or for?
Why?

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 02:32 AM
why
(is anarchy)are anarchists always associated to an idea,be it against or for?
Why?
Why do anarchists identify with ideas? :unsure:

[2ormore]

why do you think i said it?

[which doctor]

Everyone identifies with certain ideas, not just anarchists.

[2ormore]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 04:58 PM
Everyone identifies with certain ideas.
zand if i don't wan't to identified?
What then?
Should i be shout . :ph34r:

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 02:53 AM
why do you think i said it?
I dunno? I guess i don't see the problem with identifying with an idea or ideas?


zand if i don't wan't to identified?
What then?
Should i be shout .

Are you still talkin about identifying with ideas or what?

Identified as what?

Identified to who?

[2ormore]

[COLOR= A= :) red]

[chimx]

i'm just sayin' the website is back up.

[2ormore]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 05:58 PM
i'm just sayin' the website is back up.
Cool.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 04:58 PM
Everyone identifies with certain ideas, not just anarchists.
however anarchists do associate themselves with utopic ideas

[2ormore]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+Oct 7 2006, 06:31 PM--> (LeftyHenry @ Oct 7 2006, 06:31 PM)
[email protected] 7 2006, 04:58 PM
Everyone identifies with certain ideas, not just anarchists.
however anarchists do associate themselves with utopic ideas [/b]
of course some have to describe wat utopic is

[LoneRed]

This is quite funny, Chimx, make more threads like this, or rather 2ormore, post more, i like getting laughs

[2ormore]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 07:15 PM
This is quite funny, Chimx, make more threads like this, or rather 2ormore, post more, i like getting laughs


like i said,just that
i like getting laughs :P

[chimx]

raan is not an anarchist organization. it is a network of anarchists and communists working together.

[LoneRed]

my comment was meant to 2ormore

[LoneRed]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+Oct 7 2006, 06:31 PM--> (LeftyHenry @ Oct 7 2006, 06:31 PM)
[email protected] 7 2006, 04:58 PM
Everyone identifies with certain ideas, not just anarchists.
however anarchists do associate themselves with utopic ideas [/b]
anyone else see the irony? :huh:

[Leo]

Originally posted by LoneRed+Oct 8 2006, 12:10 AM--> (LoneRed @ Oct 8 2006, 12:10 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 06:31 PM

[email protected] 7 2006, 04:58 PM
Everyone identifies with certain ideas, not just anarchists.
however anarchists do associate themselves with utopic ideas
anyone else see the irony? :huh: [/b]
Would you consider baseless prejudice as a form of irony?

[LoneRed]

Its funny because both of their views are utopian.

[anomaly]

According to who? You, Lone Red? And what authority have you?

[LoneRed]

I never said i had authority, anarchism lacks a scientific outlook as well being made up by the "middle class" in society, a belief that gets handed down to students, intellectualls, and the petty-bourgeois

[BreadBros]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 03:02 AM
I never said i had authority, anarchism lacks a scientific outlook as well being made up by the "middle class" in society, a belief that gets handed down to students, intellectualls, and the petty-bourgeois
The middle class thing is a lie. Maybe if you look at the United States in recent times only, this might be PARTLY true. However there have definitely been proletarian Anarchist movements fighting for freedom, namely in Spain during the Civil War and in Mexico during the revolution. Furthermore, there has been a resurgance of proletarian Anarchists in recent times, as evidenced by the creation of a plethora of Anarcho-Communist groups, so please stop generalizing or repeating myths, it does no one service.

[LoneRed]

I was targeting the non-proletarian anarchists, I do realize there are good proletarian anarchists out there, I wasn't trying to even touch them

[which doctor]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+Oct 7 2006, 01:31 PM--> (LeftyHenry @ Oct 7 2006, 01:31 PM)
[email protected] 7 2006, 04:58 PM
Everyone identifies with certain ideas, not just anarchists.
however anarchists do associate themselves with utopic ideas [/b]
Our ideas are no more utopian than yours. Theoretical ideas tend to be utopian in nature due to the fact that one is trying to put forward the best possible society. Utopians think that things will work out exactly like how they were first put forward. I realize that things will not be perfect in an anarchist society.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 01:02 PM
I never said i had authority, anarchism lacks a scientific outlook as well being made up by the "middle class" in society, a belief that gets handed down to students, intellectualls, and the petty-bourgeois
Who the fuck are you?

Huh?

Don't forget to clean the crums off your PJ's on your way to bed, ok?

Seriously, who do you think you are? You sit on your fucking arse denouncing the revolutionary philosophy of anarchism and millions of revolutionaries as 'middle class', and 'petit-bourgeois', you're what?

16?

17?

I'm sorry, but you've been a marxist for what?

One year?

Two years?

Three years?

You are in no position to pass judgement, theoretically or ideologically on anarchism (fuckin' please), nor on millions of fucking working class anarchists who've been working themselves to the fucking bone for longer than you've been alive.

Take your blinders off for a second ay?

Yes, of course these are middle class 'anarchists', petit-bourgeois 'anarchists', 'anarchist' 'intellectuals', but there are just as many middle class, petit-bourgeois and intellectual marxist comrades too, and you fucking know it, so please, cut the ignorant, misguided and provocative crap.

[The Grey Blur]

I would just like, on behalf of all rational Marxists, to distance myself from LoneRed's political views or lack thereof

Thank you

[Leo]

Seriously, who do you think you are? You sit on your fucking arse denouncing the revolutionary philosophy of anarchism and millions of revolutionaries as 'middle class', and 'petit-bourgeois', you're what?

16?

17?

He is 20 according to his profile.

[Black Dagger]

In that case, i apologise to all of the 16 and 17 year olds on the board.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I'm 15. *Sniff*

-Alex

[LoneRed]

The difference of course, is that Marxism is the Working class theory, Anarchism is NOT. The reason that petty-bourgeois anarchists are brought up,is because that is anarchisms main clientele. I do see the ones in marxism, they are shrinking, i also attack them, they do not represent working class marxism.

Like i said I see the proletarian anarchists, but they are few, the middle class intellectuals are the majority.


btw im 20, and BD why do always come popping up, is your ego getting trampled?

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by LR+--> (LR)The difference of course, is that Marxism is the Working class theory, Anarchism is NOT.[/b]

A 'theory' has no relationship to the means of production :lol:

And lol at 'the' working class theory, yeah, marxism is THE gift from Saint Marx on high, to the blessed working masses, oh praises be to his glorious name! Marxism! Marxism! Marxism!

Please, leading revolutionary theorist of our age, explain (it's harder than making unsupported claims, i know, but please try) how anarchism 'is NOT' a 'working class theory' (and how marxism differs so dramatically).



Originally posted by LR+--> (LR)
The reason that petty-bourgeois anarchists are brought up,is because that is anarchisms main clientele.[/b]

Right, so you've done a world-wide survey have you?

Can i see it please?

Oh wait...

You're talkin out of your arse again aren't you? :(


[email protected]

I do see the ones in marxism, they are shrinking, i also attack them, they do not represent working class marxism.

You have proof that the numbers of 'middle class, petit-bourgeois marxist intellectuals' is decreasing?

Please show us.

Or are you saying this, without proof, and merely because you are a marxist and want to defend marxism whilst attacking anarchism and anarchists, without proof?


LR

Like i said I see the proletarian anarchists, but they are few, the middle class intellectuals are the majority.

Fucking prove it!

I'd love to see you try.

Why do you feel the need to generalise from an imagined experience with the anarchist movement?

I mean, what is achieved by making unsupportable, non-sense claims about a movement you have no fucking connection with? No one with a half a brain is gonna buy your accusations, so what purpose do they serve?

You enjoy trolling anarchists?

[Nachie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 09:05 PM
raan is not an anarchist organization. it is a network of anarchists and communists working together.
let us not forget those who identify with neither label, choosing simply to be known through their actions, or as "RAANistas"

LoneRed, the "Communist" League has rotted your brain

[LoneRed]

it's not surprising to hear that from a RAANist, or whatever


BD wake up and smell the coffee, look at anarchism look what it has done, nothing. Granted there are still some good ones out there, it is an ideology of the upper class, the petty-bourgeois, it does not claim to liberate the working class, actually it fights against working class empowerment, would rather have a revolution right to a "classless" society.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by LoneGunman

BD wake up and smell the coffee, look at anarchism look what it has done, nothing. Granted there are still some good ones out there, it is an ideology of the upper class, the petty-bourgeois, it does not claim to liberate the working class, actually it fights against working class empowerment, would rather have a revolution right to a "classless" society.

Like i said in my last post,

PROVE WHAT YOU ARE CLAIMING.

Provide some evidence, because everything you have said in the above paragraph about anarchism is a rather amateurish lie, repeating the lies don't make them more credible LoneGunman :wacko:

Provide evidence for your silly claims, otherwise you are trolling, plain and simple.

If you won't provide actual evidence, could ya kindly refrain from makin half-arsed sectarian attacks? Cheers.

[apathy maybe]

Not only that

"LoneRed wake up and smell the coffee, look at Marxism look what it has done, nothing. Granted there are still some good ones out there, it is an ideology of the upper class, the petty-bourgeois, it does not claim to liberate the working class, actually it fights against working class empowerment, would rather have a revolution right to a "classless" society."

I just changed two words (BD and anarchism) and yet the above quote still works. Why? 'Cause it is crap, based on generalisations.

The only Marxists who have "done anything" have been authoritarian fucks who have subsequently fucked over everyone else. Lenin claimed to be a Marxist for example. Yet Russia/USSR turned into a shit hole. Mao claimed to be a Marxist, look what happened to China. Fidel Castro claims to be a Marxist (I think), Cuba is so moving towards a communist society.

Talking about anarchists in this fashion is just stupid, and yes anarchists do want to move straight to a "classless society". We have seen the mistakes of history and wish to avoid them again.

[apathy maybe]

Not only that, I can't access the website. Shit.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by AM
nd yes anarchists do want to move straight to a "classless society".

Yes, and no.

Anarchists want to move straight towards a classless society, but this does entail that anarchists think that there will be no transistion period between capitalism as anarchism, but rather the push towards anarchism must come with as much force as possible, and without the creation of a socialist state.

Your statement was ambiguous on this point.

[apathy maybe]

Yar. That is why "classless society" was ""ified.

LoneRed said, "would rather have a revolution right to a "classless" society", which we would rather go straight to a classless society. It might not be possible, and we will have to fight for it. But minimise that transition and fight for anarchy sooner, rather then after 70+ years of statism and back to capitalism.

[Black Dagger]

Oh ok, thanks for clarifying -> and i agree.

I addressed the point myself because i didnt want to give the LoneGunman an excuse to think he's right about anything :lol:

[kaaos_af]

Hi, I'm an anarchist who was born and raised working class and had to quit my job because in the warehouse I was in I was breathing in toxic fumes and I broke the fingers in my hand. Does that make me middle class/ petit bourgeoisie now that I'm a student? By the way, I don't live with my parents.

Can you not generalise about all anarchists? I know hundreds and I can safely say only a couple I know come from middle class bvackgrounds- which they have rejected.

[LoneRed]

im not generalizing about all anarchists, it's not as simple as being working class to not be included in petty-bourgeois thought, that thought reeks down through the ranks of the working class, whether it did for you or not, i don't know

Bd, you can't hold it off forever.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by LoneRed+Oct 11 2006, 04:35 PM--> (LoneRed @ Oct 11 2006, 04:35 PM) im not generalizing about all anarchists, it's not as simple as being working class to not be included in petty-bourgeois thought, that thought reeks down through the ranks of the working class, whether it did for you or not, i don't know
[/b]
Oh be quiet, of course that is what you're doin, anyone who can read can see that,


Originally posted by [email protected]
The reason that petty-bourgeois anarchists are brought up,is because that is anarchisms main clientele.

Like i said I see the proletarian anarchists, but they are few, the middle class intellectuals are the majority.

The fact is you know JACK about anarchist thought, the anarchist movement etc (something you demonstrate regularly across the board, and are doing so again, right now), in fact you barely seem to understand marxist thought, although i must admit you have mastered vulgar marxism to a T.


LoneGuman

Bd, you can't hold it off forever.

What are you babbling about?

Does it have anything to do with the 9/11 conspiracy? IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB DAMMIT!!! :lol:

[kaaos_af]

On a different note- anarchists don't seek to liberate the working class exclusively- we want to liberate everyone (as long as they don't shoot at us and generally fuck things up) including the animals. :lol:

[Nachie]

RAANISMO O MUERTE!

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 03:02 AM
I never said i had authority, anarchism lacks a scientific outlook as well being made up by the "middle class" in society, a belief that gets handed down to students, intellectualls, and the petty-bourgeois
and the main marxist theorists were proletarian.....

oh wait

[LoneRed]

Communism is meant specifically for the working class, it puts them at the forefront of the struggle, the problem with anarchism is that, it doesnt stand clear on the class line, and would take "recruits" from all classes, a position clearly void of any significant class analysis. IT fails to take into account the disasterous effects of working with the petty-bourgeois, and other dangerous movements and theories

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 01:31 AM
Communism is meant specifically for the working class, it puts them at the forefront of the struggle, the problem with anarchism is that, it doesnt stand clear on the class line, and would take "recruits" from all classes, a position clearly void of any significant class analysis. IT fails to take into account the disasterous effects of working with the petty-bourgeois, and other dangerous movements and theories
Still, communism as a scientific theory was developed by the petit-bourgeois intellectuals.

Sure, the praxis of communism has been organized by workers themselves, but the ideology itself was conceived by petit bourgeois radicals.

You hate the petit bourgeois but yet, you follow an ideology created by petit bourgeois.

Funny, isn't it?

[KC]

Actually Marx lived mostly off of Engels (although he did have a few odd jobs) and Engels worked for his father as a clerk. They were both proletarian.

[LoneRed]

True, In fact that "they werent proles" argument is a classic argument of the anti-communists here and elsewhere

[LoneRed]

and at the very least to call Marx a petty-bourgeois is more of a joke than anything, have you read about his life? He suffered through hell, like all the other workers at the time, I wouldnt trade my life for his, as it was worse.

Getting money from Engels doesnt make him a petty-bourgeois

[chimx]

hah. KC thinks Engels was a proletarian!

He was the son of a wealthy industrialist and wasn't a clerk, but actually managed one of his father's factories. Marx got his money through Engels, who got it from work of English proletarians. While he broke with his pop for a while, he eventually went back to work for him whenever he needed a little $$$$

despite this, i still like both of them.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 04:47 AM
and at the very least to call Marx a petty-bourgeois is more of a joke than anything, have you read about his life? He suffered through hell, like all the other workers at the time, I wouldnt trade my life for his, as it was worse.

Getting money from Engels doesnt make him a petty-bourgeois
Oh, I know.

However, that was just a phase of Marx's life. Eventually, he was even able to afford a maid!

Engels didn't became communist "because he was opressed", or any other shitty fairy tale. He became a communist because he saw how workers were treated like shit in his father's factories.

I like them both, but I am not going to recupate them and add them the "proletarian aproved" sticky.

I would argue there has been more anarchist proletarian theorists than actual marxist theorists.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yeah, Marx had to pawn his clothes for writing paper, and his child starved to death; now that's petty bourgeois! :rolleyes:

[chimx]

we aren't talking about marx, we are talking about engels. engels was the son of a wealthy textile industrialist. i'm not disagreeing that engels quit working for his father by the 1850s (maybe earlier) or so, but he was still in a position of privilege as shown by the fact that when he was really hard up for cash, he could (and did!) get a job for his dad again.

and yes, marx was poor, but he was kept afloat a lot of the times by the money from engels.

[LoneRed]

couple things, you cant control where your born into, he did what he did to get out of that position, Also by giving generously to Marx, and supporting him

I dont know enough about Engels to get into more detail, but ill be researching it

and
"I would argue there has been more anarchist proletarian theorists than actual marxist theorists."

Sweet, sweet Hilarity.

[chimx]

he got out of that position, but later in life returned to it.