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Marx Lenin Stalin
4th October 2006, 19:33
This is an abbreviated version of the article I posted citing the works and achievements of Stalin. I hope the PC police do not delete it again and if they do , at the very least provide me with a reason. Don't member deserve that much??

http://www.usa2017.com/beatles/stalin.jpg


Joseph Stalin: A Great Marxist-Leninist Leader of the International Working Class
Stalin Waged a Lifelong Struggle to Defend Marxism-Leninism and the Dictatorship of the Proletariat
December 21 marks the 107th anniversary of the birth of one of the greatest leaders of the international working class, Joseph Stalin. Stalin's place in history is monumental. He led the Soviet Communist Party and the Soviet working people for nearly three decades. These were the decades in which socialism, the social system which is destined replace capitalism on a world scale, was first created. Karl Marx, Frederick Engels and V.I. Lenin had all pointed the way forward to socialism and had laid out the path to be followed. But it was Joseph Stalin who, after Lenin's death, actually led the Soviet workers and peasants to carry out the collectivization of agriculture and the building of socialist industry, to complete the radical political and social transformations necessary to build a socialist society. The path for carrying out these tasks was uncharted and Stalin shouldered the great historic responsibility of leading the Soviet people to blaze this trail.

Stalin's Struggle Against Opportunism and Revisionism


J.V. Stalin was a faithful pupil and comrade-in-arms of V.I. Lenin Under Stalin's guidance the Soviet Party stayed on the revolutionary path of Leninism, following the principles he set forth for the building of the dictatorship of the proletariat and socialism. Stalin further developed the theoretical understanding of the transition from capitalism to socialism and the nature of the new socialist society- He waged a determined struggle against those who attempted to deviate the Party to the right or the "left", which would have resulted in surrendering the revolution to the bourgeoisie. Of the critical ideological and political struggles waged under Stalin's leadership, three stand out - the struggles against Trotskyism, against Bukharinism and against Yugoslav revisionism. These were all essentially struggles to defend Marxism-Leninism and the dictatorship of the proletariat.

The. Struggle. Against Trotskyism

The first of these struggles was waged against the Trotskyists, who at first represented petty bourgeois radicalism within the Soviet Party. Fundamentally, the Trotskyists did not believe that it was possible to build socialism in one country, especially a country as backward as the Soviet Union was in the years immediately following the Bolshevik Revolution. Trotsky distorted Marx's theory of "permanent revolution" which, while super-revolutionary in words, in deeds meant defeatism and capitulation to the capitalists in the one country where the socialist revolution had been victorious, the Soviet Union.

"The essence of Trotskyism", wrote Stalin, "is, first of all, denial of the possibility of completely building socialism in the USSR by the efforts of the working class and the peasantry of our country. What does this mean? It means that if a victorious world revolution does not come to our aid in the near future, we shall have to surrender to the bourgeoisie and clear the way for a bourgeois-democratic republic. Consequently, we have here the bourgeois denial of the possibility of completely building socialism in our country, disguised by 'revolutionary' phrases about the victory of the world revolution."

The Trotskyists claimed that the peasantry was hopelessly tied to small-scale capitalist production and that there was no basis for an alliance of the working class and the peasantry.

"The essence of Trotskyism," continued Stalin, "is secondly, denial of the possibility of drawing the main mass of the peasantry into the work of socialist construction in the countryside. What does this mean? It means that the working class is incapable of leading the peasantry in the work of transferring the individual peasant farms to collectivist lines, that if victory of the world revolution does not come to the aid of the working class in the near future, the peasantry will restore the old bourgeois order."

Based on these views, the Trotskyists proposed a whole series of reckless and adventurist policies during the period of reconstruction, including a policy of super-industrialization at the expense of the peasantry, which would have led to the ruin of the peasantry and the rupture of the worker-peasant alliance. At the same time, he argued for far-reaching concessions to foreign capital in order to finance and acquire technology for industrialization. Later, he joined Right opportunists in criticizing the rates of collectivization of agriculture and socialist industrialization as "excessive." Stalin explained that these apparent contradictions in Trotskyist policies reflected "the duality of the position of the urban petty bourgeoisie," which "is striving either to jump into socialism 'at one go' in order to avoid being ruined (hence adventurism and hysterics in policy), or, if this is impossible, to make every conceivable concession to capitalism (hence capitulation in policy)."

Trotsky, a life-long factionalist, joined in a series of unprincipled blocs with all opposition forces in the Party to attack the leadership and promote factions, advancing theories to justify the "necessity of factions" in the Party.

"The essence of Trotskyism," continued Stalin, "is, lastly, denial of the necessity for iron discipline in the Party, recognition of freedom for factional groupings in the Party, recognition of the need to form a Trotskyist party. According to Trotskyism, the [Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Bolsheviks)] must not be a single, united militant party, but a collection of factions, each with its own center, its own discipline, its own, press and so forth. What does this mean? It means proclaiming freedom for political factions in the Party. It means that freedom for political groupings in the Party must be followed by freedom for political parties in the country, i.e. bourgeois democracy."

"That freedom for factional squabbling of groups of intellectuals is not inner-party democracy, that the widely developed self-criticism conducted by the Party and the colossal activity of the mass of the party membership is real and genuine inner-party democracy - Trotskyism cannot understand."

The defeat of Trotskyism was decisive to the construction of socialism. "There is no doubt that the triumph of the 'Left' deviation in our Party," wrote Stalin, "would lead to the working class being separated from its peasant base, to the vanguard of the working class being separated from the rest of the working class masses and, consequently, to the defeat of the proletariat and to facilitating conditions for the restoration of capitalism." After their defeat in the Soviet Party, the Trotskyists joined with international capital to slander and sabotage socialism in the Soviet Union.

The Struggle Against Bukharinism

The second major struggle was against Bukharin and the Right opportunists. Bukharin claimed that socialism could be built automatically, and peacefully without class struggle. They protested against the elimination of the kulak (rich peasant) economy and its replacement by collectivized agriculture. They argued that the kulaks and the other capitalist elements remaining in Soviet society would "grow peacefully into socialism." They also demanded that the state's monopoly on foreign trade be relaxed to allow for the growth of capitalist merchants, that the rate of industrialization be cut back and that the struggle against bureaucracy be curtailed, claiming that it undermined the Soviet state apparatus. Stalin warned that "A victory for the right deviation would mean a development of the conditions necessary for the restoration of capitalism." He reaffirmed Lenin's thesis that the defense of the dictatorship of the proletariat required a fierce class struggle against the remnants of the overthrown exploiting classes, the agents of international capital and new capitalist elements which arose within Soviet society. "Either we vanquish and crush them, the exploiters," warned Stalin, "or they will vanquish and crush us, the workers and peasants of the USSR."

Stalin pointed out that bureaucracy, the tendency of party and state officials to place themselves above the control of the masses, was "one of the most savage enemies" of the socialist order and could only be success-fully combated by "raising the fury of the masses of working people against bureaucratic distortions in our organizations." "The abolition of classes," taught Stalin, "is not achieved by the extinction of class struggle, but by its intensification."

In addition to the struggles against "Left" and Right opportunism within the Soviet Party, Stalin led the struggle against similar tendencies in the international communist movement. Of particular importance for the communist movement in the United States, was the intervention of Stalin and the Communist International in 1929 to correct the problems of factionalism, "American exceptionalism" and right opportunism which plagued the Communist Party, USA (CPUSA). Stalin told the U.S. communists, who were then divided into two unprincipled factions:

"The error of both groups is that they exaggerate the significance of the specific features of American capitalism which are characteristic of world capitalism as a whole... It cannot be denied that American conditions form a medium in which it is easy for the American Communist Party to be led astray and to exaggerate the strength and stability of American capitalism. These conditions lead our comrades from America, both the majority and minority, into errors of the type of the Right deviation."

The intervention of the Communist International resulted in the purge of the right opportunist Lovestone faction from the CPUSA and set the Party on a clear path of revolutionary struggle. The finest period of the revolutionary activity of the CPUSA followed, during the early 1930's. Marxist-Leninists today have much to learn from the leadership Stalin provided for the CPUSA and for the communist movement as a whole.

The Struggle Against Yugoslav Revisionism

The third major ideological struggle waged by Stalin took place after World War II and was directed against Tito and the revisionist leaders of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia (CPY). The Yugoslav revisionists were the first revisionists to hold state power. After they came to power in 1944, the Yugoslav revisionists pursued a liberal and opportunist policy of alliance with the capitalist elements of the city and the countryside, and they maintained close ties with the U.S. and British imperialists. In 1948, the Soviet Communist Party, at Stalin's initiative, openly criticized the Yugoslav policies before the international communist movement in a series of letters. The main ideological criticism concerned the question of class struggle in the construction of socialism.

"[The] spirit of the policy of class struggle is not felt in the CPY... the capitalist elements are increasing in the cities and the villages and… the leaders of the Party are not undertaking any measures to check the capitalist elements....

"The denial on the part of these comrades of the strengthening of the capitalist elements, and in connection with this, the sharpening of the class struggle in the village under the conditions of contemporary Yugoslavia, arises from the opportunist contention that, in the transition period between capitalism and socialism, the class struggle does not become sharper, as taught by Marxism-Leninism, but dies out, as averred by opportunists of the type of Bukharin, who postulated the decadent theory of the peaceful absorption of the capitalist elements into the socialist structure.

"Where, as in Yugoslavia, there is no nationalization of the land, where private ownership of the land exists and land is bought and sold, where considerable portions of land are concentrated in the hands of the kulaks, where hired labor is used, etc., the Party cannot be educated in the spirit of camouflaging the class struggle and smoothing over class controversies without disarming itself for the struggle with the main difficulties in the development of socialism."

The letters further exposed the policy of submerging the proletarian party within the multi-class popular front, which was a reflection of the same right opportunist policy of class conciliation:

"[In] Yugoslavia the CPY is not considered the main leading force, but rather the People's Front... Yugoslav leaders diminish the role of the Party and are in fact dissolving the Party into a non-party People's Front, allowing in this way the same cardinal error committed by the Mensheviks in Russia forty years ago."

"It must be borne in mind that in the People's Front a variety of classes are admitted: kulaks, merchants, small manufacturers, bourgeois intelligentsia, various political groups, including some bourgeois parties. The fact that, in Yugoslavia, only the People's Front enters the political arena and that the Party and its organizations do not take part in political life openly under its own name, not only diminishes the role of the Party in the political life of the country, but also undermines the Party as an independent political force, called upon to gain the confidence of the people and to spread its influence over even broader masses of workers through open political work, through open propaganda of its opinions and its programme."

The letter further criticized the sectarian-bureaucratic nature of the CPY:

"[The] CPY retains a semi-legal status, in spite of the fact that it came into power more that three and a half years ago;… there is no democracy in the Party; there is no system of elections; there is no criticism or self-criticism... the CPY Central Committee is not composed of elected persons, but of co-opted persons."

"[The] Politbureau of the CC of the CPY does not consider the Party as an independent entity, with the right to its own opinion, but as a partisan detachment, whose members have no right to discuss any questions but are obliged to fulfill all the desires of the 'chief' without comment. We call this cultivating militarism in the Party, which is incompatible with the principles of democracy within a Marxist-Leninist Party."

The Yugoslav leaders rejected these criticisms of Stalin and the Soviet Party and continued on their capitalist course, and, after being denounced by the international communist movement, openly allied themselves with U.S. and British imperialism. They claimed to be building a new "model of socialism," in which there was no need to expropriate the capitalists or build a proletarian dictatorship. They returned factories to the old exploiters and threw open the doors to foreign capitalist investment. In 1951, the Soviet government declared that Tito and his clique had already reestablished the capitalist system in Yugoslavia, thereby depriving the people of their revolutionary victory, and transforming the nation into a weapon of the aggressive imperialist powers.

The struggle against Yugoslav revisionism was part of a broader struggle initiated by Stalin against Right opportunist deviations which had been generated during World War II when an alliance was made with the U.S., Britain and other bourgeois democratic states to defeat fascism. This struggle included the exposure of Browderism in the U.S. Communist Party and similar opportunist lines which claimed that the War would be followed by a long period of alliance between the Soviet Union and the Anglo-American imperialists, and that here was no longer any need for revolution in the imperialist countries. The struggle was also carried out in all of the People's Democracies that had been born out of the anti-fascist war, directed against similar deviations to those that were occurring in Yugoslavia. Stalin also initiated a new campaign against Right opportunism in the Soviet Union, targeting deviations in the fields of culture and economic theory.

Stalin's Death and the Victory of Modern Revisionism

This struggle against Right opportunism was cut short by Stalin's death in 1953. Following Stalin's death the Khrushchev revisionist clique, representing a stratum of privileged and bureaucratic Soviet party and state officials, seized power, destroyed socialism and restored capitalism in the Soviet Union. They promoted the treacherous ideology of modern revisionism throughout the world, causing the degeneration of most of the communist parties. This momentous tragedy for the international communist movement was only possible after the death of Joseph Stalin, who, as the central leader of the communist movement, had defended Marxism-Leninism with determination throughout his life.

The genuine Marxist-Leninists, led by the Party of Labor of Albania (PLA) took up the struggle against the onslaught of modern revisionism. In waging this struggle they were guided by the teachings of Joseph Stalin. They had been trained by the struggle Stalin had led against Yugoslav revisionism, which had been the first battle in the struggle against modern revisionism. The Albanian Marxist-Leninists had been particularly schooled in this struggle, in which they had taken a direct part.

Stalin, of course, could not have foreseen the entire process by which the dictatorship of the proletariat would degenerate from within, a process which was concluded only after his death. The Marxist-Leninist analysis and summation of these events, and of modern revisionism in its fully developed form, were left up to Stalin's successors, Enver Hoxha and the PLA, as well as the other genuine Marxist-Leninists. After summing up the causes of the tragedy which befell the Soviet people, the PLA took important measures to correct weaknesses and distortions that had developed in the Soviet system of socialism. These measures were a perfection of the socialism pioneered by Stalin, not a rejection of it. The Albanians relied on precisely the course championed by Stalin (i.e., the continuation of the class struggle, the mobilization of the masses of people in the struggle against bureaucracy, etc.) as the basis of their measures to continually perfect and revolutionize the socialist system. In contrast, the Chinese revisionists, who also denounced Soviet revisionism, used these denunciations as an excuse to discard the basic teachings of Marxism-Leninism and the model of Soviet socialism during Stalin's time. They have ended up building capitalism, not socialism.

The Capitalist and Revisionist Attacks on Stalin

Joseph Stalin has been viciously slandered by the capitalists and revisionists, who make him out to be the devil incarnate. The reason for these unbridled attacks is clear. Stalin's name is synonymous with socialism and the dictatorship of the proletariat. He was, during the years he led the Soviet people, the most formidable and implacable enemy of the capitalist exploiters. Even now that he has died, his ideas and the system that he represents remain a fatal danger to the capitalists and the revisionists. For this reason they must attack him with all their resources; they must use every lie and deception to defame this great working class leader.

Among those who attack Stalin are a whole array of political forces which call themselves Marxists. First there are the Soviet revisionists, who have destroyed the socialist system created under Stalin's leadership and are determined to vilify anything connected with the years when the dictatorship of the working class existed in the Soviet Union, and to attack the basic principles of genuine Marxism-Leninism. (The Communist Party, USA repeats the Soviet revisionists' attacks on Stalin.) Then there are the Trotskyists, the arch-enemies of Marxism-Leninism and Soviet socialism, who have made a profession out of slandering Stalin in the service of the capitalists for over half a century. These anti-Marxist tendencies are joined by various other opportunists, and have recently found a new ally in their attacks on Stalin in the so-called Marxist-Leninist Party (MLP) in the United States. The MLP, which for many years proclaimed affiliation to the international Marxist-Leninist movement headed by the PLA, has, since 1984, shown its true colors in a series of scurrilous attacks on the Party of Labor of Albania and on Stalin. Their arguments are essentially a rehash of the lies and distortions put forward by the Trotskyists for decades.

Stalin: A Touchstone of Marxism-Leninism

All genuine Marxist-Leninists are proud to uphold Joseph Stalin as one of the great teachers of Marxism-Leninism. The question of Stalin and his work is not simply one of historical importance. It is a question of critical importance to the ongoing development of the Marxist-Leninist movement worldwide. All of the basic ideas of Marxism-Leninism and especially the heart of this theory, the necessity of the dictatorship of the proletariat, are tied up with the defense of Stalin. The capitalists and revisionists attack on Stalin is at the same time an attack on the ideas of Lenin and of Marx. The upholding of Stalin is a touchstone differentiating genuine Marxism-Leninism from all of the theories that defend capitalism (although they may do this under a myriad of "radical" and "revolutionary" signboards). Only those who uphold and defend the work and teachings of Joseph Stalin will be able to build the kind of political party necessary to lead the working class to victory and to establish and maintain the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Enver Hoxha, the great Albanian communist who died last year, spoke for all genuine Marxist-Leninists when he said:

"The historic merits of Stalin are undeniable. Those merits constitute his fundamental characteristic as a great leader and revolutionary. The revisionists' slanders against Stalin cannot in the least obscure his outstanding figure and monumental work, which will remain brilliant through the ages and will always serve as a great and inspiring example and a banner of struggle for all Marxist-Leninists of the world."

Revolution67
4th October 2006, 19:37
Comrade,
I found your original thread in the 'Trashcan' section of the messageboard. I mean really, I could not understand why it was consigned to the 'Trashcan' section. No reasons were given whatsoever for such an action. I hope this thread doesnt meet the same fate as your original thread. Moderators would use their powers wisely.

chimx
4th October 2006, 22:37
moderators should use their powers wisely and put it back in the trash.

LoneRed
4th October 2006, 22:38
How awfully sectarian of you to say such a thing

Comrade Marcel
4th October 2006, 23:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 07:38 PM
moderators should use their powers wisely and put it back in the trash.
The circle-A-jerker version of free speech: talk about it as one of your merits, but don't actually practice it. Hypocritical liars.

We MLists , on the other hand, are straight up: we don't give a fuck about bourgeois abstract concepts of "free speech", we give a fuck about socialism and material conditions for the proletarian.

Pirate Utopian
4th October 2006, 23:39
let him post his stalin tribute, im not a fan of stalin but hey he was a marxist in a way

Mesijs
4th October 2006, 23:43
Stop this personal cultus. Communism is about the collective, not about one god-like person.

Enragé
4th October 2006, 23:50
dear god, mesijs, are you feeling alright?

this is the 2nd time i have agreed with you in a matter of days :P

Janus
5th October 2006, 01:22
The mod of this forum trashed it because 1. we have plenty of Stalin threads 2. tributes belong in Chit Chat not History because no discussion ever happens rather there is a ton of spam.

chimx
5th October 2006, 02:11
Originally posted by Comrade Marcel+Oct 4 2006, 08:30 PM--> (Comrade Marcel @ Oct 4 2006, 08:30 PM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 07:38 PM
moderators should use their powers wisely and put it back in the trash.
The circle-A-jerker version of free speech: talk about it as one of your merits, but don't actually practice it. Hypocritical liars.

We MLists , on the other hand, are straight up: we don't give a fuck about bourgeois abstract concepts of "free speech", we give a fuck about socialism and material conditions for the proletarian. [/b]
you're the democratic centralist. what happened to unity in action? you are required by your ideology to get behind the actions of the CC, or any CC for that matter, and accept without hesitation what it has dictated. anything short of that, and you should be buried next to krondstaters.

RevolverNo9
5th October 2006, 03:37
Hah! That would be brilliant! We should so introduce democratic-centralism into the CC.

Prairie Fire
5th October 2006, 09:42
:D Every socialist on this forum claims to believe in democracy and freedom...

...except when it comes to speaking fondly of Stalin.


All they can talk about is Stalins purges, and when we try to counter it with
our own threads, they purge Stalin (from the forum.).

He he he. Hypocrisy is funny.

chimx
5th October 2006, 14:30
yeah, that's why we allow all those pro-capitalism and pro-fascism threads to live outside OI. ::rollseyes::

Zeruzo
5th October 2006, 14:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 08:44 PM
Stop this personal cultus. Communism is about the collective, not about one god-like person.
Well yes, but Stalin was the face of that collective.
If you think of World War2, what faces do you think of?
Hitlers?
Roosevelts?
Churchills?
Stalins?
I doubt you'll think of the faces of the masses.
Of course you DO think of the collective, but that collective has a face.
Which was Hitler for the Nazi's, and Stalin for all genuine Marxist-Leninists.


The mod of this forum trashed it because 1. we have plenty of Stalin threads 2. tributes belong in Chit Chat not History because no discussion ever happens rather there is a ton of spam.

Then why was it trashed and not send to chit chat?

Mesijs
5th October 2006, 17:52
Originally posted by Zeruzo+Oct 5 2006, 11:33 AM--> (Zeruzo @ Oct 5 2006, 11:33 AM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 08:44 PM
Stop this personal cultus. Communism is about the collective, not about one god-like person.
Well yes, but Stalin was the face of that collective.
If you think of World War2, what faces do you think of?
Hitlers?
Roosevelts?
Churchills?
Stalins?
I doubt you'll think of the faces of the masses.
Of course you DO think of the collective, but that collective has a face.
Which was Hitler for the Nazi's, and Stalin for all genuine Marxist-Leninists.


The mod of this forum trashed it because 1. we have plenty of Stalin threads 2. tributes belong in Chit Chat not History because no discussion ever happens rather there is a ton of spam.

Then why was it trashed and not send to chit chat? [/b]
A collective hasn't got a face. A collective is the mass that is not represented by one god-like leader who is not criticized, whose portrait is put everywhere, whose statue is everywhere. That is not the face of the masses, that's the face of one person.

And how could you ever call Stalin the face of all genuine Marxist-Leninsts? Marxism is clearly noy about a strong leader, Marxism is against the leader and wants dictature of the proletariat.

It's also funny that you call the names of the bourgeois and fascist leaders. They have a political system in which a small clique or one individual rules the masses. How could you ever draw this line to people that shouldn't have this hierarchy.

You know, people like you make me feel sick. How could you ever say that the face of one person is the face of 'genuine Marxist-Leninsts'. That's the biggest rape of Marxism you could ever imagine.

Hiero
5th October 2006, 18:30
Originally posted by chimx+Oct 5 2006, 10:12 AM--> (chimx @ Oct 5 2006, 10:12 AM)
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 4 2006, 08:30 PM

[email protected] 4 2006, 07:38 PM
moderators should use their powers wisely and put it back in the trash.
The circle-A-jerker version of free speech: talk about it as one of your merits, but don't actually practice it. Hypocritical liars.

We MLists , on the other hand, are straight up: we don't give a fuck about bourgeois abstract concepts of "free speech", we give a fuck about socialism and material conditions for the proletarian.
you're the democratic centralist. what happened to unity in action? you are required by your ideology to get behind the actions of the CC, or any CC for that matter, and accept without hesitation what it has dictated. anything short of that, and you should be buried next to krondstaters. [/b]
Democratic centralism isn't a moral to followed in day to day actions. The CC isn't a communist party.

Enragé
5th October 2006, 21:45
Originally posted by Zeruzo+Oct 5 2006, 11:33 AM--> (Zeruzo @ Oct 5 2006, 11:33 AM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 08:44 PM
Stop this personal cultus. Communism is about the collective, not about one god-like person.
Well yes, but Stalin was the face of that collective.
If you think of World War2, what faces do you think of?
Hitlers?
Roosevelts?
Churchills?
Stalins?
I doubt you'll think of the faces of the masses.
Of course you DO think of the collective, but that collective has a face.
Which was Hitler for the Nazi's, and Stalin for all genuine Marxist-Leninists.

[/b]
i think of

http://www.historywiz.com/images/holocaust/dachauprisoners.gif

and

http://hpbimg.leestafel.info/de%20dokwerker.JPG

and

http://ww2.boom.ru/Stalingrad/stalingrad.jpg



not some shitty leader

RevolverNo9
6th October 2006, 02:35
If you think of World War2, what faces do you think of?
Hitlers?
Roosevelts?
Churchills?
Stalins?

You are doing your own argument little here since Hitler, Roosevelt and Churchill all presided over societies that expressed and promoted an individualist and voluntarist ideology. Such things ought to be anathema to the workers' movement. However, they became ingrained in the ideology of the Soviet Union. Your point only serves to demonstrate this.


Democratic centralism isn't a moral to follow in day to day actions. The CC isn't a communist party.

There's a slim possibility that Chimx was being a little ironic. Still, nice to hear that old morality's still around.

chimx
6th October 2006, 03:35
what's wrong with tolerating stalinists less than one would tolerate capitalists?

kaaos_af
6th October 2006, 07:56
Nothing, comrade, nothing at all.

Raj Radical
6th October 2006, 08:05
Stalin was a mass-murdering, paranoid monster before he was a socialist.

Thats all there is to it.

kaaos_af
6th October 2006, 08:11
Stalin was a socialist since he was 16... how can you be a 15 year old mass murderer? God knows, when I was that age at school I would've liked to be one :D

RebelDog
6th October 2006, 08:49
People can call Stalin a socialist, a communist, a marxist if they want but to me he was just another crazed Tsar who didn't give a flying fuck about the proletariat in his kingdom or futher afield. If Stalin was a marxist he certainly did not practice it. Marx would have had nothing to do with the man had he been alive to see him operate.
I wouldn't trust a Stalinist as far as I could throw him. Why would a marxist want to have anything to do with Stalin? The answer is control, deep down they don't trust the proletariat.

sonofthedog
6th October 2006, 09:01
Quite simply, Stalin murdered most outstanding Bolshevik cadre, real Marxists (not philistine revisionists), and the emerging left-wing opposition and defense of the gains of the October Revolution espoused in Trotskyism.

Stalinists, a.) are not Marxists and distort the very key tenets of Marxism and Leninism, b.) do not represent the interests of the working-class as a whole, and c.) should not be lent any political support by Socialists today.

Stalinism has betrayed more than one revolution, from Iran to Afghanistan to Spain...
and what sane person could ever listen to someone who would defend gulags?

If we are ever to have a serious discussion about the prospects of building a conscious independent Left (let alone the building of a revolutionary Party) in the US, we must move beyond the two main tendencies and weaknesses crippling today's Left - namely, opportunism (and its stepchild, accomodation), and conversely, ultra-leftism - which are also the pulls within the marginal Stalinist presence.

"Neither Washington nor Moscow, but International Socialism!"

Herman
6th October 2006, 10:25
Now hold your horses there. What's with this insulting Stalin and telling that "stalinists" shouldn't be given any power? I thought you were SOCIALISTS. I guess I was wrong.

Marx Lenin Stalin
6th October 2006, 20:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 06:43 AM
:D Every socialist on this forum claims to believe in democracy and freedom...

...except when it comes to speaking fondly of Stalin.


All they can talk about is Stalins purges, and when we try to counter it with
our own threads, they purge Stalin (from the forum.).

He he he. Hypocrisy is funny.
Good point. So outright pacifists and liberals can post freely here as members but it's not OK for Marxists who accept Stalin as a leader to do so? Some revolutionaries.... :rolleyes:

Marx Lenin Stalin
6th October 2006, 20:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 07:26 AM
Now hold your horses there. What's with this insulting Stalin and telling that "stalinists" shouldn't be given any power? I thought you were SOCIALISTS. I guess I was wrong.
Yup. Apparently so. :blink:

Leo
6th October 2006, 20:32
"Neither Washington nor Moscow, but Islamic Iranian State Killing Striking Workers!"

Quote fixed.


If we are ever to have a serious discussion about the prospects of building a conscious independent Left (let alone the building of a revolutionary Party) in the US, we must move beyond the two main tendencies and weaknesses crippling today's Left - namely, opportunism (and its stepchild, accomodation), and conversely, ultra-leftism - which are also the pulls within the marginal Stalinist presence.

You don't know shit about ultra-leftism.


Quite simply, Stalin murdered most outstanding Bolshevik cadre, real Marxists (not philistine revisionists), and the emerging left-wing opposition and defense of the gains of the October Revolution espoused in Trotskyism.

I am, as usual, thrilled by the thick anti-materialism coming from Trotskyists. "If only our great leader Trotsky managed to became the leader instead of that evil monster Stalin, everything would be perfect". No it wouldn't, it would have been almost the same. Leaders don't make history; history makes leaders and classes make history.

The "outstanding cadres" of the Bolshevik aristorcracy, stood for the petty-bourgeoise, Stalin stood for the "middle cadres" or the new buerocratic and industrial capitalist class, this is why Stalin was a capitalist and an imperialist, and apparently quite consciously so. What brought him to the 'top' was the class supporting him. Any other leader who could have been there had to be supported by this new capitalist class, there was no other way.

GX.
7th October 2006, 07:27
Originally posted by Leo [email protected] 6 2006, 05:33 PM

"Neither Washington nor Moscow, but Islamic Iranian State Killing Striking Workers!"

Quote fixed.


If we are ever to have a serious discussion about the prospects of building a conscious independent Left (let alone the building of a revolutionary Party) in the US, we must move beyond the two main tendencies and weaknesses crippling today's Left - namely, opportunism (and its stepchild, accomodation), and conversely, ultra-leftism - which are also the pulls within the marginal Stalinist presence.

You don't know shit about ultra-leftism.


Quite simply, Stalin murdered most outstanding Bolshevik cadre, real Marxists (not philistine revisionists), and the emerging left-wing opposition and defense of the gains of the October Revolution espoused in Trotskyism.

I am, as usual, thrilled by the thick anti-materialism coming from Trotskyists. "If only our great leader Trotsky managed to became the leader instead of that evil monster Stalin, everything would be perfect". No it wouldn't, it would have been almost the same. Leaders don't make history; history makes leaders and classes make history.

The "outstanding cadres" of the Bolshevik aristorcracy, stood for the petty-bourgeoise, Stalin stood for the "middle cadres" or the new buerocratic and industrial capitalist class, this is why Stalin was a capitalist and an imperialist, and apparently quite consciously so. What brought him to the 'top' was the class supporting him. Any other leader who could have been there had to be supported by this new capitalist class, there was no other way.
You don't know shit about Trotskyism, obviously. I've never met a single Trot who thinks that bureaucracy can be surmounted other than through 'permanent revolution' until international socialism. And I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with the original post.

Mujer Libre
7th October 2006, 07:41
Originally posted by Marx Lenin Stalin+Oct 6 2006, 05:19 PM--> (Marx Lenin Stalin @ Oct 6 2006, 05:19 PM)
[email protected] 5 2006, 06:43 AM
:D Every socialist on this forum claims to believe in democracy and freedom...

...except when it comes to speaking fondly of Stalin.


All they can talk about is Stalins purges, and when we try to counter it with
our own threads, they purge Stalin (from the forum.).

He he he. Hypocrisy is funny.
Good point. So outright pacifists and liberals can post freely here as members but it's not OK for Marxists who accept Stalin as a leader to do so? Some revolutionaries.... :rolleyes: [/b]
WTF does that even mean? Do you accept Stalin as your personal saviour?

He's dead- he's not going to be leading anything. ;)

YSR
7th October 2006, 10:39
Boring. Stalin is about as relevent to the modern workers movement as Proudhon.

Why does he show up all the time? He was a terrible leader, as leaders go. He was the manifestation of the managerial class that ruled the Soviet Union at the time. Just like a president or something.

Who the fuck cares about this murderous shithole? Seriously, you "Marxist-Leninist" types confuse the hell out of me. Why are you living in the 1940's?

Leo
7th October 2006, 11:08
Just remember: The same History books that say that Stalin was a ruthless tyrant are the same history books that say that Winston Churchill was a tireless defender of freedom and democracy.

And the History books that say Winston Churchill was a ruthless pig are the same history books that say that Stalin was a tireless defender of socialism and saviour of European nations. History is written by the victorious. The fact remains, however, that Stalin and Churchill got drunk together.

Herman
7th October 2006, 13:27
Who the fuck cares about this murderous shithole? Seriously, you "Marxist-Leninist" types confuse the hell out of me. Why are you living in the 1940's?

Who says I am? It wasn't me who started this thread in the (gasp!) HISTORY section.

chimx
7th October 2006, 19:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 03:43 AM
Chimx said:

what's wrong with tolerating stalinists less than one would tolerate capitalists?

Come again? Excuse me?

Wow...fucking incredible. I mean, I've met Trots who have admitted that the Soviet Union under Stalin was MUCH better than capitalist Russia as it stands now, and Trotskyism is an ideology that could not exist without a festering hatred of Stalin.

You chose capitalism, the mortal enemy of socialism, over "Stalinism".
Why doesn't that surprise me.
Of course, you take the Capitalist classes word for everything you know about Stalin, and probably everything else, so of course you were with the capitalists from the beggining.

a) i'm not a trot
b) the quality of life in the ussr was so fucked under stalin. its basically like asking the question, would you rather live under capitalism or die of starvation.

Leo
7th October 2006, 20:48
Now you are just being an opportunist. Stalin and Churchill have been in the same room at the same time, occasionally, therefore they are birds of a feather.

Beeing in the same room is a little different from getting drunk together in a cheerful atmosphere when millions of workers are dying.


Despite the fact that Churchill egged the fascist nations on against Stalin's USSR, and hated communism with a passion, he and Stalin were obviously one and the same. I'm sure a dogmatist like you would have prefered if the USSR had to fight
Germany alone, and then also fight Britain and America.

I would have prefered if workers of all those countries refused to fight under the national flag and overthrown their bourgeoise for communism but history is not about preferances.


Just as capitalists try to discredit Stalin with his brief peace with Nazi germany, dogmatic revisionists, trots and anarchists try to discredit Stalin with his brief alliance with capitalist UK and USA.

I am not discrediting Stalin with his brief alliance with capitalist UK and USA or with his brief peace with Nazi germany, quite the contrary I think those 'peaces' were the rational and expected thing for a capitalist and imperalist like Stalin to do and what I am pointing out is that those rulers are not different at all.

Invader Zim
8th October 2006, 06:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 04:17 PM


Sad isn't it? Some of you revolutionaries will tolerate Capitalists and fascists before you tolerate Stalin.
Stalin was a state capitalist and arguably a 'proto-fascist', so no its not sad at all.

A wolf in a lamb suit is still a wolf.

Leo
8th October 2006, 12:03
When did this happen? I have never heard of Stalin and Churshill socializing
and drinking. Churchill hated communism

Stalin wasn't really a communist. I believe that it happened in one of the conferances.


hence he wouldn't have spoken to Stalin if he didn't have to.

You know that this doesn't make any sense. Those people are politicans, of course they would talk to each other, and be nice to each other, and flatter each other if it is necessary. Personal feelings of the leaders are irrelevant in diplomacy. I think Churchill even gave Stalin a sword saying "to the leader of russian workers and peasants".


And I would have prefered if the Canadian working class had overthrown the canadian government, and established the Peoples Republic of Canada.
Only problem is, I'm talking about what has actually happened, not what I wished happened.

Yes, so am I. An imperialist war has actually happened.


Ah, good point. It would have been much better if the Red army had focused on fighting ALL of the other powers of the second world war. That way, Soviet casualties would be able to escalate to 50 Million. Absolutely brilliant.

Do you have a problem with comprahending? I didn't say "this is what the USSR" should have done, as I don't say "this is what the USA should have done" or "this is what the Nazi Germany should have done", all those nation-states acted accordingly to their material and imperial interests, they could not have acted in any other way.


but in this case it was about the survival of socialism in the USSR.

Ah, this is the crux of our disagreement. I think the revolution was long dead in the USSR during the second world war. It was dead before Stalin and the middle cadre capitalist class took power. It was dead in 1921, latest.


Hopes and dreams of peoples of all nations turning an imperialist war into a civil war are fine, but that didn't happen in a lot of countries, so we have to analyse what DID happen.

And that's what I'm doing, an imperialist war had happened.

Enragé
8th October 2006, 16:18
Neither Washington nor Moscow, but Workers' Power!


quote FIXED

i <3 that one

stevensen
9th October 2006, 15:55
let us be bold comrades. yes, stalin made mistakes , after all he was human. and stalin did amzing things too. let us learn from his mistakes and never forget everyone make mistakes. of stalin this much can be said, his mistakes were done in ignorance and always in a manner that he thought was for the revolution. while we learn from his mistakes let us be proud of his achievements. and let us admit openly with all his faults we still love stalin because he was and nobody can ever take this away from him the true leader of the party, a genuine revolutionary. here was stalin a man with all his mistakes whose achievements still outshone his mistakes.
we love stalin and stalin it shall be.
long live the people&#33; long live the revolution1 long live stalinism&#33;

A.J.
9th October 2006, 16:04
All I&#39;ll say is. Consider the parties/organisations/groups etc etc around the world at present who are pro-Stalin then contrast them with the parties/organisations/groups who are anti-Stalin.

Cursory analysis should reveal that is the former not the latter that represents and expresses the interests of the workers and oppressed peoples.

KC
9th October 2006, 19:39
Could you back that up, or are you just pulling that out of your ass?

Also, trade unions "express the interests of the workers and the oppressed peoples" but it doesn&#39;t mean they&#39;re going to bring socialism.

chimx
9th October 2006, 21:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 05:39 PM
Chimx:

a) i&#39;m not a trot
b) the quality of life in the ussr was so fucked under stalin. its basically like asking the question, would you rather live under capitalism or die of starvation.

I didn&#39;t say you were a trot. Believe it or not, I can read an avatar.
I only used trots as an example, because they fucking hate Stalin, and yet I was able to get a trot I know to choose Stalin over capitalism. Maybe this was the lowest common denominator, but that&#39;s still a good sign. It shows that when push comes to shove, certain people can put their hatred of Stalin aside to unite againts the common enemy: CAPITALISM.

You think I like Kropotkin? How about Bakunin?
Still, I&#39;ll choose Kropotkin over Reagan any day.

Oh, and you know that Stalins USSR was starving, do you? Is this from your own experience, in the Soviet Republic of Montana? I mean, I can&#39;t say for sure that people wern&#39;t starving, but at least I have a bit of a paper trail to back up my argument. Now during the period of 1939-1945, things were pretty messed up in the USSR. However, keep in mind that there was a WAR GOING ON. Even bourgeoisie historians will admit that the soviet union got raped pretty hard by
the Germans. Keep in mind, it&#39;s kind of hard to grow crops when you have an army advancing on the capital.
after you get done with denying the millions of people that died in the USSR with your paper trail, are you going to deny the holocaust next?

Nothing Human Is Alien
9th October 2006, 21:28
the quality of life in the ussr was so fucked under stalin. its basically like asking the question, would you rather live under capitalism or die of starvation.

Except for not at all.

Life expectancy doubled under Stalin. That&#39;s an indicator of living conditions as a whole.

chimx
9th October 2006, 21:30
:rolleyes:

Leo
9th October 2006, 23:01
What the fuck do you mean you "believe"? If your going to put information out there, assume responsibility for it&#39;s legitimacy.

Lets correct that: I believe I read that they got drunk together in one of the conferances, If I remember correctly, it was Tehran, but it might be Yalta as well. I will check my resources to make sure which one it is.

And now, please try to calm down and be civil. I know you can do it if you try hard enough.


So now we are talking about differences in OPINION. You say Stalin wasn&#39;t a communist, I say he was. If you have something to say against Stalin, argue something less abstract.

Well, I am talking about historical and economical facts here. Middle cadres; bueraucrats, ex-tsarists officers etc. were the new economically rising potential ruling class. In the diaries of Georgi Dimitroff, which were recently published in German, we get a unique glimpse into how Stalin was fully aware what brought him to power, giving an unexpected twist to his well-known slogan that "cadres are our greatest wealth.” When, at a diner in November 1937, Dimitroff praises the “great luck” of the international workers, that they had such a genius as their leader, Stalin, Stalin answers:

“... I do not agree with him. He even expressed himself in a non-Marxist way.
Decisive are the middle cadres."

He puts it in an even clearer way a paragraph earlier:

“Why did we win over Trotsky and others? It is well known that, after Lenin, Trotsky was the most popular in our land. But we had the support of the middle cadres. Trotsky did not pay any attention to these cadres.”

Here Stalin spells out the secret of his rise to power: as a rather anonymous General Secretary, he nominated tens of thousands of cadres who owed their rise to him... This is why Stalin did not yet want Lenin dead in the early 1922, rejecting his demand to be given poison to end his life after the debilitating stroke: if Lenin were to die already in early 1922, the question of succession would not yet be resolved in Stalin’s favor, since Stalin as the general secretary did not yet penetrate enough the Party apparatus with his appointees — he needed another year or two, so that, when Lenin effectively dies, he could count on the support of thousands of mid-level cadres, potential capitalist class of Russia which was rapidly rising, nominated by him to win over the big old names of the Bolshevik “aristocracy.”

So if you think being a &#39;communist&#39; is limited to talking about &#39;socialism&#39; and waving red flags, you can think Stalin was a communist. However, communism is not just limited to those, and Stalin was a conscious capitalist.

Marx Lenin Stalin
10th October 2006, 19:32
Will some of the critics of Comrade Stalin actually try to attack any of the excellent points made in the opening article of this thread?

It has shown conclusively the IMMORTAL controbutions of Comrade Stalin.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/Stalin.jpg

Raj Radical
11th October 2006, 21:30
Originally posted by Marx Lenin [email protected] 10 2006, 04:33 PM
Will some of the critics of Comrade Stalin actually try to attack any of the excellent points made in the opening article of this thread?

It has shown conclusively the IMMORTAL controbutions of Comrade Stalin.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/Stalin.jpg
Maybe because your original post is just the same idol-worship cultist shit that we have heard a thousand times before.

Your hero was a scum-fucking dictator. Get over it.

Cult of Reason
11th October 2006, 22:23
Socialism (system): Worker control of the means of production and distribution.

Stalin was no Socialist.

Leo
11th October 2006, 22:39
Socialism (system): Worker control of the means of production and distribution.

Stalin was no Socialist.

That&#39;s actually a wrong description of socialism according to Marx&#39;s own definition :P , but in no way is Stalin a socialist in Marx&#39;s definition as well.

The truth is that Stalin was a conscious capitalist and imperialist.

Cult of Reason
11th October 2006, 23:04
I am not using Marx&#39;s definition. :P

Xiao Banfa
12th October 2006, 02:18
How does his love of middle-level cadres and scheming make him a capitalist?

Xiao Banfa
12th October 2006, 02:33
I agree with the following:


Just remember: The same History books that say that Stalin was a ruthless tyrant are the same history books that say that Winston Churchill was a tireless defender of freedom and democracy


Life expectancy doubled under Stalin. That&#39;s an indicator of living conditions as a whole.



Stalin is about as relevent to the modern workers movement as Proudhon.

Axel1917
12th October 2006, 04:51
Originally posted by Compań[email protected] 9 2006, 06:29 PM

the quality of life in the ussr was so fucked under stalin. its basically like asking the question, would you rather live under capitalism or die of starvation.

Except for not at all.

Life expectancy doubled under Stalin. That&#39;s an indicator of living conditions as a whole.
Things went pretty far forward. A deformed workers&#39; state is better than no workers&#39; state at all. The refusal to admit this by some is a complete capitulation to bourgeois propaganda.

Well, Marx-Lenin-Stalin, I don&#39;t have the time to make super-long posts, but I believe the work at http://www.marxist.com/russia-revolution-c...rrevolution.htm (http://www.marxist.com/russia-revolution-counterrevolution.htm) does well in doing as such.

Marx Lenin Stalin
12th October 2006, 18:35
Originally posted by Tino [email protected] 11 2006, 11:34 PM
I agree with the following:


Just remember: The same History books that say that Stalin was a ruthless tyrant are the same history books that say that Winston Churchill was a tireless defender of freedom and democracy


Life expectancy doubled under Stalin. That&#39;s an indicator of living conditions as a whole.



Stalin is about as relevent to the modern workers movement as Proudhon.
As do I&#33; :D

This is exactly why I made my post for people whose heads have been filled only by bourgeois propaganda to see the tremendous achievements made by Stalin&#33;&#33;

Demogorgon
12th October 2006, 21:15
Originally posted by Marx Lenin [email protected] 12 2006, 03:36 PM

As do I&#33; :D

This is exactly why I made my post for people whose heads have been filled only by bourgeois propaganda to see the tremendous achievements made by Stalin&#33;&#33;
You would be as well talking about the achievements of capitalism. Stalin achieved a fair bit (though not as much as the Soviet Union like to claim, they weren&#39;t above fiddling with the figures) but he also did great damage. The bottom line though is that he was nothing but an opportunist using socialism for political power and no socialist himself. So his achievements were not the achievements of socialism. Why celebrate them here?

Mesijs
13th October 2006, 00:24
The Stalinist here still do not see the point that in a true worker&#39;s state, there should be a worker&#39;s democracy and not one man on top who decides. People who say: Stalin may have made mistakes, but he did more good, YOU DON&#39;T GET THE POINT&#33; The point is that there shouldn&#39;t be one man who takes decisions, but a true worker&#39;s representation. If the point was that the worker&#39;s democracy made mistakes but did more good, that is something logical in a true communist territory.

And please kiddies, why put this man in your avatar. Is he really like your big idol. I thought personal cultus was something for authoritarian people and fascist, not for people who put the collective first.

Xiao Banfa
13th October 2006, 07:03
The Stalinist here still do not see the point that in a true worker&#39;s state, there should be a worker&#39;s democracy and not one man on top who decides. People who say: Stalin may have made mistakes, but he did more good, YOU DON&#39;T GET THE POINT&#33; The point is that there shouldn&#39;t be one man who takes decisions, but a true worker&#39;s representation. If the point was that the worker&#39;s democracy made mistakes but did more good, that is something logical in a true communist territory.

And please kiddies, why put this man in your avatar. Is he really like your big idol. I thought personal cultus was something for authoritarian people and fascist, not for people who put the collective first.

I agree with everything in this post except that I&#39;m a Stalin Kiddie and putting a historical figure in your avatar makes you a cultist. The avatar&#39;s a joke.

I think you immediately make the association between Stalin and cultic worship when you see the picture.

Anyway, I don&#39;t see why people make such a fuss about Stalin these days. Back in the 60&#39;s and 70&#39;s many people had at least some degree of appreciation for Stalin. That was the New Left, BTW.

RNK
13th October 2006, 07:12
All of this in-fighting makes baby Marx cry.

Enragé
13th October 2006, 14:16
if sectarianism is calling a brutal homocidal dictator who raped the revolution a bastard

then im sectarian&#33;


you can say that life expectancies doubled...well
because of whom did they double?
because of stalin?
NO&#33;
because of the workers&#33; Who worked hard day in day out for a better tomorrow, yet only recieved repression and a new leader, same as the old one.

Dyst
13th October 2006, 16:18
There are people out there "raping revolutions" TODAY. And im not talking about "leninists".

Deal with that, anarcho folks. Stalin is long dead, it&#39;s easy to criticize someone who has no relevance anymore (or shouldn&#39;t have)...

Rollo
13th October 2006, 21:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 09:17 PM
if sectarianism is calling a brutal homocidal dictator who raped the revolution a bastard

then im sectarian&#33;


you can say that life expectancies doubled...well
because of whom did they double?
because of stalin?
NO&#33;
because of the workers&#33; Who worked hard day in day out for a better tomorrow, yet only recieved repression and a new leader, same as the old one.
Oh please, if it was up to Lenin, Stalin wouldn&#39;t have had so much power of the people.


Dyst

Who&#39;s raping revolutions today? Chavez? I can&#39;t think of many.

Marx Lenin Stalin
10th November 2006, 00:33
This thread needs to be viewed as it appears the anarchists, revionists and bourgeois liberals have ganged up to make a large amount of repetiative anti Stalin, anti worker posts where they basically repeat bourgeois lies over and over and over again.

loveme4whoiam
10th November 2006, 00:37
How about creating a thought-out post where you actually explain and prove those accusations you&#39;re chucking about? And frankly, idiot Stalin worship deserves to be ganged up on.

Intelligitimate
10th November 2006, 01:01
Originally posted by Marx Lenin [email protected] 10, 2006 12:33 am
This thread needs to be viewed as it appears the anarchists, revionists and bourgeois liberals have ganged up to make a large amount of repetiative anti Stalin, anti worker posts where they basically repeat bourgeois lies over and over and over again.
When push comes to shove, they always run from debate. The stickied post in this forum is proof of that. The anti-Stalin &#39;socialists&#39; were ***** slapped in that thread. As soon as they have to start justifying their bullshit with evidence, they stop posting. Most of them can be forgiven, because they are just dumb teenagers who will hopefully learn better. But quite a few of them are dedicated anti-communists Trotskyite cult members. Anti-Stalinism (and by extension, anti-communism) is their entire identity. They literally hate every single socialist revolution besides 1917, and worship the most savage and brutal &#39;Bolshevik&#39; there was: Trotsky, the egomaniacal father of anti-communism. They are his ideological children, and use the same methods Trotsky used against his own opponents, which his son Sedov described so well to his mother:

“I think that all Dad&#39;s deficiencies have not diminished as he has grown older, but under the influence of his isolation, very difficult, unprecedentedly difficult, got worse. His lack of tolerance, hot temper, inconsistency, even rudeness, his desire to humiliate, offend and even destroy have increased. It is not &#39;personal,&#39; it is a method and hardly good in organisation of work.”

They all even hate each other. You should watch the Trotskyites denounce each other on this forum over the stupidest bit of theory. It is hysterical&#33;

Marx Lenin Stalin
10th November 2006, 01:05
Excellent point comrade&#33;&#33; :lol: :lol:

The so called "anti authoritarians" claim to be about the oh so virtous things like free speech and democratic rights..except when it comes to discussing Comrade Stalin&#33; Hypocrisy, sheer hypocrisy&#33;

http://www.phil.mq.edu.au/staff/grestall/log/images/stalin.jpg

BreadBros
10th November 2006, 02:52
Originally posted by Marx Lenin [email protected] 10, 2006 01:05 am
Excellent point comrade&#33;&#33; :lol: :lol:

The so called "anti authoritarians" claim to be about the oh so virtous things like free speech and democratic rights..except when it comes to discussing Comrade Stalin&#33; Hypocrisy, sheer hypocrisy&#33;

http://www.phil.mq.edu.au/staff/grestall/log/images/stalin.jpg
Thats the same thing right-wingers say about communists though. :rolleyes:

Nilats
11th November 2006, 15:25
So? You really think if anarchists or trotskyists or whomever came to power they wouldn&#39;t call you bad names either?

Naive.

Enragé
11th November 2006, 15:30
the point is that no one should come to power but the collective working class.

period.

the point is that the achievements in the USSR were because of the work of the people of the USSR, not the work of one man in the kremlin.
did he till the fields?
did he work in the factories?

Cryotank Screams
11th November 2006, 15:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:25 am
So? You really think if anarchists or trotskyists or whomever came to power they wouldn&#39;t call you bad names either?

Naive.
The criticisms are a reflection of your beliefs, and how you both embrace, condone, and exalt the deeds of stalin; it&#39;s your own fault.

YSR
11th November 2006, 15:50
That&#39;s it&#33; Marx Lenin Stalin has got to be some kind of satirist. It&#39;s just too ridiculous for him not to be.

Keep it up, comrade.

Red October
11th November 2006, 16:00
has anyone here read a book called "The Commissar Vanishes"? i forget who the author is, but its a good book about soviet propaganda in stalinist russia, the purges, and how so many people were simply "erased".

OneBrickOneVoice
11th November 2006, 16:25
Stalin made many mistakes in how he beuracratized the party, and so viciously dealt with the opposition both inside the party and out and inside the proletariat and out.

The actions he took here would in the end be very counterproductive to the movement and would be used as ammo by capitalists and facists for decades to come.

----

That said, that kind of action is understandable in a undeveloped, unestablished nation which was war ravaged and lacked any sort of defence. In the end, Stalin&#39;s actions would have the USSR emerge victorious against the Nazis and establish themselves as a superpower. The cost would be a more deformed worker state than before, but personally, if the USSR, wanted to live past WWII, that &#39;iron fist industrialization&#39; was necessary.

Wanted Man
11th November 2006, 17:31
A site that I can recommend to anyone:

http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/

It&#39;s not written by what some might call "stalinist" partisans, but it still seeks to do away with the idea of the USSR in the Stalin era as some sort of "totalitarian" or "Orwellian" hole. Pretty much the essence of "fair & balanced", but done right.

Dimentio
11th November 2006, 17:44
Does&#39;nt marxist-leninists of a hoxhaite orientation think that Stalin were authoritarian? I mean, I cannot see the need for instituting censorship and suppression of debate in the USSR during the late 20;s and 30;s. I mean, I could dislike and even wanna beat up those who are repeating idiotic arguments from time to time, but I try to understand their points at least.

The Advent of Anarchy
3rd December 2006, 16:00
I think any proper Stalinist could tell you Stalin wasn&#39;t perfect, but he did great things along with the terrible. He made his country literate, a world power, and he crushed Hitler and the Werchmat with his Red Army.

The Bitter Hippy
3rd December 2006, 22:07
i think many here would agree that the industrialization/collectivisation movements were both necessary and in the long term justified.

Stalin&#39;s biggest problem was the purges and centralization of authority. They were unnecessary, and counterproductive. They finally doomed the USSRs chance to attain communism.