Log in

View Full Version : My grandma..



Hool
4th October 2006, 04:33
Was telling me about the 30's and Farabundo Marti in El Salvador and what happened when communism was strong then. Apparently they'd cut off the heads of anybody who disagreed or didn't work and put them on poles after they paraded around with them.

Are their any examples of communism that didn't use fear and violence once they actually had power to keep control of people??

VonClausewitz
4th October 2006, 05:21
Are their any examples of communism that didn't use fear and violence once they actually had power to keep control of people??

I'll start the ball rolling shall I ?

NONE OF ANY COUNTRY IN HISTORY WAS COMMUNIST !!!111!!!!! THEY JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE RED FLAGS, SING RED SONGS, CALL THEMSELVES COMMUNISTS AND GENERALLY HOLD COMMIE-LIKE BELIEFS. BUT THEY WEREN'T COMMUNISTS !!!111111!

bezdomni
4th October 2006, 05:26
If they were beheading workers and peasants, then they weren't communists in any way.

Now, if the people who "didn't agree" were wealthy people who shot at workers and peasants that wanted rights...then who cares?

At any rate, most Marxists (of all flavors) denounce iterrorism as a means of carrying out revolution.

RedCommieBear
4th October 2006, 05:29
If Rosa Luxemburg lived a little longer, and the German revolution was successful, the society she envisioned was not one of, as you described, "a society of fear and violence once they actually had power to keep control of people".


Originally posted by Rosa Luxemburg
Freedom only for the members of the government, only for the members of the Party — though they are quite numerous — is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters. The essence of political freedom depends not on the fanatics of 'justice', but rather on all the invigorating, beneficial, and detergent effects of dissenters. If 'freedom' becomes 'privilege', the workings of political freedom are broken.

Edit: Fixed a couple spelling mistakes.

Hiero
4th October 2006, 08:48
Your grandma is a dirty liar.

ZX3
4th October 2006, 14:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 01:34 AM
Was telling me about the 30's and Farabundo Marti in El Salvador and what happened when communism was strong then. Apparently they'd cut off the heads of anybody who disagreed or didn't work and put them on poles after they paraded around with them.

Are their any examples of communism that didn't use fear and violence once they actually had power to keep control of people??
No.

Its quite simple really- and also complex. Socialists are forever squabbling amongst themselves. They can never agree as to the best way to build socialism. This entire website is a testament to to the fractious nature of socialism (and this forum bans Stalinists who alos have their own view of building socialism).

Communists. who are a subset of socialists, squabble amongst themselves as well (one just has to read the responses so far on this note).

What socialists never seem to understand, even though they mouth it often enough, is that socialism is revolutionary. The entire society has to be overhauled, runs the cant (though there are socialists who would probably be defined derisively by the socialists here as being "reformers" by keeping the capitalist structure, but tightly controled).

So the socialist, when faced with the opportunity to build socialism (or at least starting to build socialism) has to deal not merely with the capitalist or the reactionaries, but also socialists of other parties who will have different ways of building socialism (a problem which socialists rarely address in theory, but is real enough in practice). What to do?

Well, the only rational way forward is to do what Lenin suggested- the "dreaded" vanguard. Such an organization is the only realistic way of dealing with the counter-revolutionaries (remmeber that socialists, erroneously, believe capitalists to have awesome powers. Something must be created to counteract the expected counterstrike). The fractious nature of the socialist movement makes this problem worse, because it divides the socialist movement (ie the workers) at a moment that it needs to be united.

So what happens? The killings start, usually (it is claimed) of just the capitalists and the "reactionaries." Such people are, after all according to many socialists, unreedmable. However, what happens sto the workers of other socilaist parties? Well, they must conform, or they too will be killed off, or shipped off to the camps (the latter is more likely after the revolution has been consolidated). Otherwise, the worker movement is split, and gives an opportunity for the capitalist to sneak back into power.

How communism evolved in the 20th century will be the way it will evolve in the 21st. Not because the same "mistakes" of a Stalin or a Lenin will be remade, but because they were not "mistakes." Socialism evolved as it logically must.

So no, there has never been an example of a communist community which does not commence to mass killings. And there never will be.

Hool
4th October 2006, 14:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 05:49 AM
Your grandma is a dirty liar.
Your opinion of someone you know nothing about doesn't affect that it happened.

How about you do a little research before you talk about things you don't know about, ass.

Iroquois Xavier
4th October 2006, 15:07
Originally posted by Hool+Oct 4 2006, 11:59 AM--> (Hool @ Oct 4 2006, 11:59 AM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 05:49 AM
Your grandma is a dirty liar.
Your opinion of someone you know nothing about doesn't affect that it happened.

How about you do a little research before you talk about things you don't know about, ass. [/b]
WHAT HAVE YOU GOT AGAINST ASSES?

t_wolves_fan
4th October 2006, 16:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 02:27 AM
At any rate, most Marxists (of all flavors) denounce iterrorism as a means of carrying out revolution.
That's funny, Koba was a master terrorist.

Forward Union
4th October 2006, 19:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 02:22 AM
NONE OF ANY COUNTRY IN HISTORY WAS COMMUNIST !!!111!!!!!
Right


THEY JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE RED FLAGS

Yup.


SING RED SONGS,

I wouldn't call songs about how great Lenin and stalin and forced collectivisation were... "red" I certainly wouldn't be singing along with them.


CALL THEMSELVES COMMUNISTS

But they did admit the system they had in place was not communist. You just seem to ignore that.


AND GENERALLY HOLD COMMIE-LIKE BELIEFS.

Such as?

Qwerty Dvorak
4th October 2006, 20:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 02:22 AM

Are their any examples of communism that didn't use fear and violence once they actually had power to keep control of people??

I'll start the ball rolling shall I ?

NONE OF ANY COUNTRY IN HISTORY WAS COMMUNIST !!!111!!!!! THEY JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE RED FLAGS, SING RED SONGS, CALL THEMSELVES COMMUNISTS AND GENERALLY HOLD COMMIE-LIKE BELIEFS. BUT THEY WEREN'T COMMUNISTS !!!111111!
I am a capitalist. I skin 3-year-olds and rape puppies.

OMG :o

JazzRemington
4th October 2006, 20:42
Originally posted by RedStar1916+Oct 4 2006, 12:19 PM--> (RedStar1916 @ Oct 4 2006, 12:19 PM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 02:22 AM

Are their any examples of communism that didn't use fear and violence once they actually had power to keep control of people??

I'll start the ball rolling shall I ?

NONE OF ANY COUNTRY IN HISTORY WAS COMMUNIST !!!111!!!!! THEY JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE RED FLAGS, SING RED SONGS, CALL THEMSELVES COMMUNISTS AND GENERALLY HOLD COMMIE-LIKE BELIEFS. BUT THEY WEREN'T COMMUNISTS !!!111111!
I am a capitalist. I skin 3-year-olds and rape puppies.

OMG :o [/b]
O noez!!!!!!

Dean
4th October 2006, 23:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 01:34 AM
Was telling me about the 30's and Farabundo Marti in El Salvador and what happened when communism was strong then. Apparently they'd cut off the heads of anybody who disagreed or didn't work and put them on poles after they paraded around with them.

Are their any examples of communism that didn't use fear and violence once they actually had power to keep control of people??
What you're talking about is socialism, or predominantly Communist led governments. There are many examples: Chile is an example, as well as Venezuela.

Avtomatov
5th October 2006, 00:49
Venezuala and Chile are not socialist.

Dean
5th October 2006, 08:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 09:50 PM
Venezuala and Chile are not socialist.
Chile is not anymore, Venezuela appears to be so today. I'm not particularly interested in a debate as to waht precisely defines socialism; to me, it is a state in which class distinction is diminished intentionally.

Hiero
5th October 2006, 08:51
Originally posted by Hool+Oct 4 2006, 10:59 PM--> (Hool @ Oct 4 2006, 10:59 PM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 05:49 AM
Your grandma is a dirty liar.
Your opinion of someone you know nothing about doesn't affect that it happened.

How about you do a little research before you talk about things you don't know about, ass. [/b]
How about you do the same. Have you got any other sources for these stupid allegations other then....your Grandma?

mauvaise foi
5th October 2006, 09:21
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 11:59 AM
How about you do a little research before you talk about things you don't know about, ass.
Research? You haven't done any research at all. Your just repeating things your grandma told you. Its pure hearsay. I find it funny that whenever I find my self arguing with reactionaries from Latin American countries that have had revolutionary movements (such as Cuba, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, or currently, Venezuela), the only thing these people can come up with to discredit is "my uncle said..." or "my cousin told me..."

Patchd
5th October 2006, 11:20
Originally posted by Hiero+Oct 5 2006, 05:52 AM--> (Hiero @ Oct 5 2006, 05:52 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 10:59 PM

[email protected] 4 2006, 05:49 AM
Your grandma is a dirty liar.
Your opinion of someone you know nothing about doesn't affect that it happened.

How about you do a little research before you talk about things you don't know about, ass.
How about you do the same. Have you got any other sources for these stupid allegations other then....your Grandma? [/b]
Comrade, it doesnt necessarily mean that his grandman is a liar, it could just be that she was misled, remember if we get stronger the ruling classes would always spread lies about us, to reduce our support among the very people we are trying to help.

Hiero
5th October 2006, 11:40
Originally posted by Palachinov+Oct 5 2006, 07:21 PM--> (Palachinov @ Oct 5 2006, 07:21 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 10:59 PM

[email protected] 4 2006, 05:49 AM
Your grandma is a dirty liar.
Your opinion of someone you know nothing about doesn't affect that it happened.

How about you do a little research before you talk about things you don't know about, ass.
How about you do the same. Have you got any other sources for these stupid allegations other then....your Grandma?
Comrade, it doesnt necessarily mean that his grandman is a liar, it could just be that she was misled, remember if we get stronger the ruling classes would always spread lies about us, to reduce our support among the very people we are trying to help. [/b]
The liar comment was an insult. I didn't really mean it.

BurnTheOliveTree
5th October 2006, 21:50
If our Grandma's say your Grandma is mistaken, do we win?

-Alex

Goatse
5th October 2006, 23:35
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 02:22 AM

Are their any examples of communism that didn't use fear and violence once they actually had power to keep control of people??

I'll start the ball rolling shall I ?

NONE OF ANY COUNTRY IN HISTORY WAS COMMUNIST !!!111!!!!! THEY JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE RED FLAGS, SING RED SONGS, CALL THEMSELVES COMMUNISTS AND GENERALLY HOLD COMMIE-LIKE BELIEFS. BUT THEY WEREN'T COMMUNISTS !!!111111!
Oh damn, you've got me convinced! Now I believe Stalin, Kim and Pol-Pot were communists!

Thank you!

An archist
6th October 2006, 00:10
Since when do expressions from relatives count as truth?

colonelguppy
6th October 2006, 00:14
well considering it was a civil war really i'm sure bad shit happened.

t_wolves_fan
6th October 2006, 00:15
Originally posted by An [email protected] 5 2006, 09:11 PM
Since when do expressions from relatives count as truth?
Are claims from relatives any less credible than claims from individuals who are members of this board? I mean we've got people saying they're working class and will never have an opportunity to rise above their current status. Is that credible? Simply because they've lost hope, they have a point that is applicable to the rest of the working class?

Hool
6th October 2006, 05:23
You guys who said it's hearsay are so fucking stupid i almost don't want to reply. Why would i want to go read a book about something, when i can TALK WITH SOMEONE WHO LIVED THROUGH THE FUCKING CRISIS? wtf.

Also if you actually want to read about the conflict it's called "la matanza" and it happened in '32. I could care less if you believe what my grandma said, even if you don't believe her and i do, that isn't the focus of the thread.

mauvaise foi, i don't know what points you want me to discredit of yours seeing has you haven't given yet any but if you want to throw some out feel free.

An archist
6th October 2006, 10:10
your grandma was involved, so clearly her view of things is affected by her own emotions.

Jazzratt
6th October 2006, 10:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 02:24 AM
You guys who said it's hearsay are so fucking stupid i almost don't want to reply. Why would i want to go read a book about something, when i can TALK WITH SOMEONE WHO LIVED THROUGH THE FUCKING CRISIS? wtf.
Books tend to be compiled objectivley and based both on an understanding of wider events that an eyewitness may well not actually know. The good ones also tend to use extensive sources, some of which may be eyewitness accounts - although it is understood these can often be unrealiable, especially when provided by people who could have a vested interest in putting a certian spin on events. This is why I would rather read a book than rely on the testimony of someone who may well have "LIVED THROUGH THE FUCKING CRISIS" but could either be mistaken about wider events, forgetting important detials or just plain making things up.

(The above paragraph has references to people not being 100% honest, at this time however I would not include the OP's grandmother in this group.)


Also if you actually want to read about the conflict it's called "la matanza" and it happened in '32. I could care less if you believe what my grandma said, even if you don't believe her and i do, that isn't the focus of the thread. Your question in the OP, as I now recall was about socialist countries that don't use violence and fear to keep power, an easy question: Cuba for one. There will be two groups of people on my own side that would disagree with this, namely anarcho-communists of various flavours and the kind of commie that falls for gusano lies. I have yet to find an objective source on cuba that describes a state as fascistic as the one that the gusanos imagine, if you can please tell me. OTherwise my example nation is Cuba.

t_wolves_fan
6th October 2006, 16:13
Books tend to be compiled objectivley

Are you lying on purpose or are you really this naive?


This is why I would rather read a book than rely on the testimony of someone who may well have "LIVED THROUGH THE FUCKING CRISIS" but could either be mistaken about wider events, forgetting important detials or just plain making things up.

Then by your logic I can safely rely on a book about why capitalism rocks and ignore anecdotal stories of the downtrodden working class such as those on this board.

I'm sure that's different though.

:lol:

YSR
6th October 2006, 18:34
Yeah. We've got facts and history on our side. Whereas you have revisionist history based on the elite perspective.

Idiot.

t_wolves_fan
6th October 2006, 19:20
Originally posted by Young Stupid [email protected] 6 2006, 03:35 PM
Yeah. We've got facts and history on our side.
Such as.

Jazzratt
7th October 2006, 01:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 01:14 PM

Books tend to be compiled objectivley

Are you lying on purpose or are you really this naive?
Did I really have to preface that with "Relaiable history", or are you just trying to find whatever you can to ***** about?




This is why I would rather read a book than rely on the testimony of someone who may well have "LIVED THROUGH THE FUCKING CRISIS" but could either be mistaken about wider events, forgetting important detials or just plain making things up.

Then by your logic I can safely rely on a book about why capitalism rocks and ignore anecdotal stories of the downtrodden working class such as those on this board.

I'm sure that's different though.

:lol: Produce your objectivley compiled, fully verifiable evidence please.

LoneRed
7th October 2006, 02:49
La Matanza- happened after The coup that took out Arujo(sp?)
Garcia I believe his name was slaughtered the peasants after they and the communists went to protest and decided that an insurrection to oust the illigitimate leader. He murdered somewhere in the 30000's or so


"Nevertheless, actual fighting broke out on January 22, 1932. Rebels, led by the communist party—Socorro Rojo—and Agustín Farabundo Martí, attacked government forces with support that was largely from Pipil Indians in the western part of El Salvador. Within three days, they had succeeded in taking control of several towns, disrupting supply lines to many of the country’s towns and villages, and attacking a military garrison. With their superior training and technology, the government troops needed only a few days to defeat the rebels. While the rebels killed less than 100 people, the military retaliated with great force, killing between 10,000 and 40,000 peasants, including Martí.
[edit]

Aftermath"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932_Salvador...easant_uprising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932_Salvadoran_peasant_uprising)

LoneRed
7th October 2006, 02:51
Your grandma is mistaken, gravely so, it's a complete backwash of history. The COMMUNISTS WERE NOT!!! in power at that time, they lead the peasants in the peasant rebellion of 32'. Check it!

LoneRed
7th October 2006, 02:52
Fyi... My avatar is Marti.

but go ahead and check the facts

Hool
8th October 2006, 19:48
She lived in western El Salvador, i'm not sure when she left her home town but the only two provinces she's ever lived in in her life have been Ahuachapan and Santa Ana, both in western ES. Once the communists have control of an area, they govern the area how they see fit, just like they did in the 80's. I don't think they were violent in the 80's though, seeing how they found out that if they killed civilians like the army did, the majority of their backing (the campesinos, or farmers) would be diminished.

kaaos_af
9th October 2006, 13:56
How d'y know they were communists?

If I say I'm Mickey Mouse that doesn't make me Mickey Mouse.

Hool
10th October 2006, 06:37
Interesting point, i don't know what to tell you.

bezdomni
13th October 2006, 06:03
Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+Oct 4 2006, 01:45 PM--> (t_wolves_fan @ Oct 4 2006, 01:45 PM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 02:27 AM
At any rate, most Marxists (of all flavors) denounce iterrorism as a means of carrying out revolution.
That's funny, Koba was a master terrorist. [/b]
Then we can conclude that he was not a communist.

Deductive reasoning. Who'd have thunk it?

black magick hustla
13th October 2006, 06:18
hey gtuys my grandma was orson wells

black magick hustla
13th October 2006, 06:19
YAH I AHVE AN EYEWITNESS SHE IS ORSON WELLS

bezdomni
16th October 2006, 23:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 03:20 AM
YAH I AHVE AN EYEWITNESS SHE IS ORSON WELLS
As long as she says so, then it must be true.