So when does it start?

[Political_Chucky]

Ok I have been on this for a month or so more or less invisible to the revleft.com public. So this is my question. I see many people discussing how the revolution is suppose to take place, how people are getting "ready" for the revolution, and whos government should be implemented along with the action. But WHEN will you actually take action is what I want to know. Too many people are more or less bullshit and talk.

I understand that many people are living a more or less comfortable life but if many of the leftist society discusses a revolution to take place, what are you waiting for? We are the proletarians of society! Are you waiting for a messiah? Answer me these questions.

[cenv]

We&#39;re waiting for the masses to become politically conscious. The revolution needs to be carried out by the proletariat as a whole, not <5% of the proletariat. When this will be is anyone&#39;s guess, but don&#39;t hold your breath, as we still have a lot of work to do.

[Rollo]

Next weekend. Run outside shouting "viva la revolucion" firing guns off, don&#39;t check beforehand.

[An archist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 06:41 AM
Next weekend. Run outside shouting "viva la revolucion" firing guns off, don&#39;t check beforehand.
:lol: Viva la revolution brotha&#33;

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 05:09 AM
I see many people discussing how the revolution is suppose to take place, how people are getting "ready" for the revolution,
Getting ready? well I wonder how you would go about doing that? I think the revolution is immediately present. We exist in state of war, between the two classes, and must fight these battles, so im my opinion, the "revolution" would just be an escalation of the actions already happening. So to answer your question, we&#39;re not getting ready, we&#39;re fighting the revolution now.


and whos government should be implemented along with the action.

No ones government should be implemented. The organisations we take part in now should be as democratic and non-hierarchical as possible, and we should try to organise our workplaces and communities along these lines also.


But WHEN will you actually take action is what I want to know. Too many people are more or less bullshit and talk.

Well, many of us do take action - and are actively involved in political organisation. But resistance isn&#39;t made up of a string of symbolic demonstrations. It&#39;s not a liberal hobby. A lot of "action" is tedious and time consuming. But needs to be done.


I understand that many people are living a more or less comfortable life

Who?


Are you waiting for a messiah?

Of course not. But you are correct, many members of this forum see Communism as some sort of interests project - and will maybe even go to a demo and buy fair-trade coffee. They&#39;re wankers. There&#39;s not really any excuse for not being involved in the class struggle, most of us don&#39;t have a choice.

[Ze]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 10:09 AM
Ok I have been on this for a month or so more or less invisible to the revleft.com public. So this is my question. I see many people discussing how the revolution is suppose to take place, how people are getting "ready" for the revolution, and whos government should be implemented along with the action. But WHEN will you actually take action is what I want to know. Too many people are more or less bullshit and talk.

I understand that many people are living a more or less comfortable life but if many of the leftist society discusses a revolution to take place, what are you waiting for? We are the proletarians of society&#33; Are you waiting for a messiah? Answer me these questions.
part of taking action is talking, is educating the masses around you. especially at the onset. &#39;each one, teach one&#39;. the US power structure is very well entrenched but nothing is impossible. keep learning, talking, doing...

[rouchambeau]

Next weekend. Run outside shouting "viva la revolucion" firing guns off, don&#39;t check beforehand.

No man. We had to move it back to the weekend after that. All of the white, middle-class vanguardists have midterms to study for.

[afrikaNOW]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 05:09 AM
Ok I have been on this for a month or so more or less invisible to the revleft.com public. So this is my question. I see many people discussing how the revolution is suppose to take place, how people are getting "ready" for the revolution, and whos government should be implemented along with the action. But WHEN will you actually take action is what I want to know. Too many people are more or less bullshit and talk.

I understand that many people are living a more or less comfortable life but if many of the leftist society discusses a revolution to take place, what are you waiting for? We are the proletarians of society&#33; Are you waiting for a messiah? Answer me these questions.
"THE REVOLUTION IS HERE, THE REVOLUTION IS NOW."

remember revolution is a process.

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 09:35 PM
We&#39;re waiting for the masses to become politically conscious. The revolution needs to be carried out by the proletariat as a whole, not <5% of the proletariat.
Well see that is what I mean. If only 5% of the population is realizing that capitalism is not the way, it is up to us to show the other 95% the light. But in order to accomplish these ideas, because I am sure we have all done much planning and discussing, we must go out and make a difference.


It&#39;s not a liberal hobby. A lot of "action" is tedious and time consuming. But needs to be done.

Exactly. If I may, I would like to bring up Malcolm X. Now, when the Nation of Islam was only but a minority of the black race, lets just says 1% of the black race. Malcolm actually went out, preached the word of the Nation and actually had people listening because the people he preached to were people in need. And the people in need have no idea of how to better their life, but he offered them a solution. As time went on, this 1% of the black race grew, and even if it only reached a 20% increase, this method would do just fine in making communism or any type of government known to the world again. That is what I believe must happen.

If Communism is to be preached, we must explain to society that their perception of it is wrong and that United States propaganda has affected its image to be connected with Russia and other current Communist states rather then the actual true Communism that is envisioned.

I believe that many people are afraid to come out and discuss communist views because society has deemed it wrong, and especially with the most ignorant of people associating it with Nazis. I must admit I was once one of those ignorant people, but I have learned from my mistakes and wish to show people the truth. I can also admit to myself that I am too young to take action, mentally and physically because I yet have lots to learn. But for the people who do have the mentality of knowing true communism, we all must admit that there has really been no progress in the political world for communism in the U.S. besides a couple of Che shirts and hats. This is why we must increase the action we direct towards the American Community.

[Rawthentic]

Thats true what you&#39;re saying bro. So now go and spread the word. Talk to people, dialogue and communicate with our oppressed brothers and sisters on the need for revolution. If you&#39;re interested in joining an organization, send me a PM.

[Tekun]

There is no time or date that signifies the beginning of "the revolution"
Ever since capitalism emerged, after the fall of feudalism, class conflict and consciousness has always been present and emanant
And several lower class uprisings and capitalist overthrows have taken place since then...Paris Commune of 1871, Russian revolution, German insurrection, Cuban revolution,....some have been successful others have not
Regardless of this, like LU said, the revolution is ongoing
Active and violent revolutions are right around the corner in many parts of the world, and some are constantly going on...the FARC in Colombia have an ongoing armed conflict against the Colombian government, the Maoist rebels in Nepal have been fighting a war with the government, same goes for the NPA in the Philipines, and now the APPO in Mexico
These are all examples of groups that took action and are now entrenched in a fight against capitalism
The same can be said about certain groups whose members post on RevLeft, although most of these groups are in their activism phase, if they are succesful the working class will start to rise up against their oppressors, and then they will have to fight alongside their proletarians brothers against the gov and the forces of capitalism, like what&#39;s going on in Colombia and Nepal
But, like every other group, they have to gather the support of the majority of the working class
And this takes time, they have to break the chains of comformity and ignorance, and start to enlighten the working class about their plight, and ways to improve their conditions
We&#39;re fighting against a very experience and strategic foe...and it takes time to undo decades of indoctrination and thus liberate them
And that&#39;s what alot of groups on RevLeft are trying to do...like IWW, the FPM, the CL, and so on...

You really can&#39;t compare the NOI and communism, although we could compare the ways that they recruited
The NOI sought to brainwash ppl about Allah and E Mohammed
While communism (in my case) is all about throwing that out the window and empowering the working class
Ppl are always gonna be vulnerable towards religion because it seeks to create an entity that ppl rally around and place their faith/lives in, that&#39;s why Marx despised it because he believed that ppl deserved to believe in themselves, as a way improving their lives
So religion is always gonna be easier to put into ppl&#39;s heads
That&#39;s why most of the world has ties to a religion
Communism is gonna be hard to influence ppl because of its history, but many of us are trying to abolish the preconceived notions about it, and use it to liberate the working class
Its hard due to the propaganda campaigns against communism, but more and more ppl are looking for change
And sooner or later, ppl&#39;s lives will push them to seek an alternative to the current system, and they&#39;ll make up the bulk of the masses that want a revolution

I doubt that any working class person on RevLeft is living a comfortable life
Just the fact that we&#39;re from the working class should give u an idea about our lives, we wan&#39;t change because we&#39;ve had enough of the exploitation, poverty, and abuse
Although once in a while you&#39;ll encounter some upper class rebel wannabe poster that&#39;s interested in socialism/communism/anarchism
But since communism seeks to erase all classes and private property, most of them will be turned off because of the threat that communism poses upon their comfortable lives

Most of us on RevLeft are in some way to connected to organizations dedicated to increasing class consciousness, unity, and fighting against the system
Just because we&#39;re on RevLeft doesn&#39;t mean we aren&#39;t out on the streets fishing and doing work
Like I said, religion is easier to transmit than class consciousness
Slowly but surely, we&#39;re increasing that need that ppl have for change in the US or in Europe, and sooner or later active revolution in one or more countries will come to head
So, don&#39;t think we&#39;re all talk and no action
Im at UCR and seeing how u live in Riverside, how about we spread the word around the city? PM me if you&#39;re interested


The revolution needs no messiah, the working class is the power behind the movement

[Political_Chucky]

Regardless of this, like LU said, the revolution is ongoing
Active and violent revolutions are right around the corner in many parts of the world, and some are constantly going on...the FARC in Colombia have an ongoing armed conflict against the Colombian government........

Yes I completely agree with this, its just to me, its not happening as well as it should in America. I am not really aware of any militant groups in America who have took extremes to get their ideas heard, such as earlier militant groups such as the black panthers or brown berets, who obviously made a statement. but when I said that most of us are more or less comfortable...I should had clarified myself. I am really directing this comment to the people who you describe as the people who look at communism from a higher class and are turned off by this idea of a no class system.


You really can&#39;t compare the NOI and communism, although we could compare the ways that they recruited
The NOI sought to brainwash ppl about Allah and E Mohammed
While communism (in my case) is all about throwing that out the window and empowering the working class.....So religion is always gonna be easier to put into ppl&#39;s heads. That&#39;s why most of the world has ties to a religion

Yea well thats what I meant by comparing the NOI and Communism, was just with the methods of recruitment. But see, why are people so attracted to religion is the question that should be asked. I believe it is because, what does it offer? If a person does what he is told.....he will live a prosperous life now and when he is dead. Now, if people are given the idea that Communism also will lead you to a more prosperous life, and in reality, to the general public, it will, then people WILL follow. Of course I am not talking about misleading them, but directing them to to true communism. I think politics should be looked at as a religion, because as with any religion, it has its set of basic laws and beliefs, and if these beliefs can be transmitted with the same propaganda that tries and destroy it, then it will be massivly taught or at least be an interested topic to discuss with the public. Now when I say with the same propaganda, I am talking about the modern media such as radio, television, music, and newspaper.

But in general I agree with alot of what you said Tekun, and the Revolution is a slow but sure process. I just see it like this. It has been 40 years since the "Red Scare" and that means its been 40 years since communism has been implemented in the mass amount of Americans heads. If nothing has happened since then, what is to be done to allow it to happen now?

[RNK]

This is probably the most useful thing you can do right now:

- Reach out to local Communists
- Engage in military training (either by state or substitute it with self-training)
- Attempt to organize, or join, or unite, other Communists/groups into a committee to discuss what steps need to be taken next

This is what I and some friends are currently doing... note that for military training, RESERVES are often better than full-time military. You get the same training in the Reserves (over a longer period of time) without having to sign over your soul. Atleast that&#39;s how it goes in Canada.

(Also as has been discussed between my friends an I, it is not entirely bad to be deployed into combat, ie Afghanistan -- although it is universally understood that the "peacekeeping" mission there is a fucking farce, it would provide good on-the-ground combat experience that mere military training would not give. We decided against it, but it is an option)

So go on&#33; Go out and start it&#33;

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 10:10 PM
This is probably the most useful thing you can do right now:

- Reach out to local Communists
- Engage in military training (either by state or substitute it with self-training)
- Attempt to organize, or join, or unite, other Communists/groups into a committee to discuss what steps need to be taken next

This is what I and some friends are currently doing... note that for military training, RESERVES are often better than full-time military. You get the same training in the Reserves (over a longer period of time) without having to sign over your soul. Atleast that&#39;s how it goes in Canada.

(Also as has been discussed between my friends an I, it is not entirely bad to be deployed into combat, ie Afghanistan -- although it is universally understood that the "peacekeeping" mission there is a fucking farce, it would provide good on-the-ground combat experience that mere military training would not give. We decided against it, but it is an option)

So go on&#33; Go out and start it&#33;
yea I have also thought about joining the army, but as you said, I feel like I am giving my soul away. I just don&#39;t see how someone can really do something such as take action without the required knowlodge of his enemy. So if a revolution was to happen, there would need to be a lot of people who do have a good sense of knowlodge of how the enemy&#39;s tatics work. But yea, this is what I have decided upon my life personally after highschool.

1.Community College getting my basic ed- 2 years
2.Find a college and try and get a bachelors in Pol. Science-3-4 years
3.While trying to get my degree, try and get into the peace corps so when I do have it, I can go. 2 years
4.Get masters when I get back.- 3-4 years
5.start work on political career.

Now this is my basic idea, but of course, tihngs are subject to change and I being realistic, don&#39;t see the revolution in America coming in the following years I am studying. But if I do follow this path, I can certainly say that I will keep my point of view for action.

[afrikaNOW]

What exactly is the peace corps and can you tell me more about it?
Is it all expensed paid or you have to pay for it?

[Tekun]

Originally posted by Political_Chucky Posted: Oct 3 [email protected] 04:42 AM

Yes I completely agree with this, its just to me, its not happening as well as it should in America. I am not really aware of any militant groups in America who have took extremes to get their ideas heard, such as earlier militant groups such as the black panthers or brown berets, who obviously made a statement. but when I said that most of us are more or less comfortable...I should had clarified myself. I am really directing this comment to the people who you describe as the people who look at communism from a higher class and are turned off by this idea of a no class system.

You&#39;re right, its not happening like what&#39;s going on in Colombia or Nepal
But that&#39;s because of a number of reasons, among these:
First off, class conciousness has decreased considerably since the Cold War, due to anti-red hysterias that took place
In addition, a great deal of reforms have more or less "improved" the lives of thousands in the US (welfare, worker&#39;s rights, unions,...) and its made them content with their situation
And this has definitely decreased worker&#39;s militancy and determination
But, among the biggest reason for this lack of revolutionary enthusiasm, comes as a result of labor aristocracy
Worker&#39;s in developed countries lack revolutionary spirit because they conform and are content with exploiting the worker&#39;s in underdeveloped countries, thus it is these workers in places like LatinAmerica or Asia which are the first ones to rise up against capitalism

Unfortunately, militant groups like the BP&#39;s and the Weatherman were undone by tactical errors, COINTELPRO, and the lack of ground to work with due to all the things that developed countries offer for workers
However, one must also take into consideration their policy of direct militancy, which became their undoing, because many of their members were arrested or killed due to their militancy
So, its up to groups rep&#39;ed here on RevLeft to take a different approach, raise class conciousness, and then when the working class starts armed conflict against their enemies, join them instead of becoming their leaders
With so many workers in unions and the decreasing benefits of workers, class conflict only needs a few sparks to ignite




But in general I agree with alot of what you said Tekun, and the Revolution is a slow but sure process. I just see it like this. It has been 40 years since the "Red Scare" and that means its been 40 years since communism has been implemented in the mass amount of Americans heads. If nothing has happened since then, what is to be done to allow it to happen now?

Worker&#39;s emancipation should be perceived like a religion...however, u have to realize that unlike religion, the government openly opposes any communist activities that serve to liberate our working class brothers and sisters
If they didn&#39;t, the armed revolution would be present
But the foe we fight against, is both strategic and experienced
So its harder to show ppl the truth about communism, than in pushing religion

What needs to be done is more and more activism on our part
The rest will take care of itself...we can&#39;t control the government&#39;s policies, so sooner or later, capitalism will start dismantling itself through its own greed, and then ppl will be ready to fight it
We see it throughout LatinAmerica, in Mexico, in Bolivia, in Venezuela, in Haiti we see that the ppl are taking action and are fed up with the exploitation
Although guidance could help these movements, they&#39;re on the verge of exploding

[Tekun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 06:39 AM
What exactly is the peace corps and can you tell me more about it?
Is it all expensed paid or you have to pay for it?
Don&#39;t waste your time on the PeaceCorp
Its a government sponsored agency that seeks to elevate and improve America&#39;s reputation in the 3rd world
It was created in 1961 by Kennedy to create solidarity with underdeveloped countries in order to undermine Soviet and Chinese influence

In the PeaceCorp, American citizens go abroad and do volunteer projects for poor and exploited ppl in different countries, for about 2 years
Its a way for the American government to repair its notorious and imperialistic prominence by doing charity work, rather than offering the world&#39;s poor a true solution to their problems

Bsides, its a government agency, sponsored by the government
Its like the military, except that you&#39;re not imposing American influence through the barrel of a gun, but with a shovel and a textbook

To hell with the PeaceCorp

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 11:06 PM
, this method would do just fine in making communism or any type of government known to the world again. That is what I believe must happen.
Well, I think communism is a realisation of ones class status or "consciousness". People don&#39;t need to have an in-depth understanding of Marx&#39; historical materialism to be a "communist revolutionary" many people involved in anarchist-communist groups are just workers, who have realised they&#39;re being fucked over by a class society. Rather than preaching economics or morals to people, we simply need to offer them an organised solution to their problems. And this is best done in practically fighting our class interests, against; redundancies, factory closures, ID cards, or whatever.


I must admit I was once one of those ignorant people, but I have learned from my mistakes and wish to show people the truth.

Well, although I respect the sentiments. You don&#39;t want to approach people like they&#39;re ignorant buffoons, and you must liberate their minds with your superior intellect. Right though you may be, communist theory doesn&#39;t mean much when someone&#39;s being exploited, and they know it. We need to actually fight for our class interests, against capitalism and the state. People will see it as a way of making their lives better and get involved in the struggle against their bosses.


I can also admit to myself that I am too young to take action, mentally and physically because I yet have lots to learn.

Well, there are a lot of things that need doing within organisations. From combating the police, to spell checking/writing articles, I&#39;d be surprised if there wasn&#39;t something within your capabilities. And in way it&#39;s important that you become self sufficient and independent.


This is why we must increase the action we direct towards the American Community.

Totally. We need to actually start combating capitalism, and making a better way of life for ourselves. Not handed down to us by the rich. We need to take our means of survival ourselves and become independent and co-operative.

[Rawthentic]

Comrade Chucky, since you are in Riverside, and so is Tekun, you should consider joining with him since he is an FPM member, isnt that correct Tekun? Im also an FPM member but I live in Salinas, about 6 hrs from you, 2hrs south of San Francisco. One of my serious college options is UC Riverside, and I have talked with Tekun about the possibilities of me and him joining up there in the future. Im a junior, by the way. Dont be afraid, thats what forums are also for, to meet other comrades. So get in touch, join the FPM, and get to work.

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by Tekun+Oct 3 2006, 12:55 AM--> (Tekun &#064; Oct 3 2006, 12:55 AM)
[email protected] 3 2006, 06:39 AM
What exactly is the peace corps and can you tell me more about it?
Is it all expensed paid or you have to pay for it?
Don&#39;t waste your time on the PeaceCorp
Its a government sponsored agency that seeks to elevate and improve America&#39;s reputation in the 3rd world
It was created in 1961 by Kennedy to create solidarity with underdeveloped countries in order to undermine Soviet and Chinese influence

In the PeaceCorp, American citizens go abroad and do volunteer projects for poor and exploited ppl in different countries, for about 2 years
Its a way for the American government to repair its notorious and imperialistic prominence by doing charity work, rather than offering the world&#39;s poor a true solution to their problems

Bsides, its a government agency, sponsored by the government
Its like the military, except that you&#39;re not imposing American influence through the barrel of a gun, but with a shovel and a textbook

To hell with the PeaceCorp [/b]
Well I understand that it peace corps is only spreading American patriotism to the foriegn lands, or at least thats what it may more or less be doing. But for my Political science major, it would auctaully help me with credits and also allow me to travel all expenses paid. Pros of the peace corps is 1. traveling for free 2. sense of what different countries cultures are 3. college credits for certain colleges 4. looks good on the resume and 5. You are helping people which is something I would like to do. I really think the pros out weigh the cons. But one major thing is that after 2 years, you are only paid 6,000 bucks which is really nothing. But if the opprotunity is there, I wouldn&#39;t mind taking advantage of it.

If you are interested into joining the peace corps look at the Peace corps (http://www.peacecorps.gov/) website. But really the only way to join is with a college degree in something.

[Tekun]

Well I understand that it peace corps is only spreading American patriotism to the foriegn lands, or at least thats what it may more or less be doing. But for my Political science major, it would auctaully help me with credits and also allow me to travel all expenses paid. Pros of the peace corps is 1. traveling for free 2. sense of what different countries cultures are 3. college credits for certain colleges 4. looks good on the resume and 5. You are helping people which is something I would like to do. I really think the pros out weigh the cons. But one major thing is that after 2 years, you are only paid 6,000 bucks which is really nothing. But if the opprotunity is there, I wouldn&#39;t mind taking advantage of it.


"Pros" of the PeaceCorp:

1.Traveling for free, yet knowing full well that your helping this evil government repair its reputation around the world, a reputation that was achieved through years of abuse
U could drive down to Mexico, Central America, and whatnot all by yourself, without compromising your principles

2. If you wanna travel and get to know cultures, join one of the many grassroot Marxist orgs that help out and spread the word in different countries
Its not gonna be free, but you&#39;re gonna be liberating ppl&#39;s minds, instead of clamping more chains on em by polishing this country&#39;s rep and giving these ppl false promises

3. If u need college creds, take a couple of AP classes or take college courses in the summer
Bsides, college is fun, why shorten your stay?

4. Resume? Who exactly are u trying to impress?
I&#39;d say that if you&#39;re going to major in PoliSci, joining grassroot orgs that have and push a political agenda should be enough
The more revolutionary, the merrier

5. U don&#39;t have to join the PeaceCorp to help ppl, u can do that yourself or with one of the many org that are repped here on RevLeft


If you&#39;re concerned about what they&#39;re gonna pay u for "helping" ppl on a 2yr trek with the PeaceCorp...I think u got your priorities mixed up
All of us on RevLeft could care less about pay for helping our fellow human beings
Word to tha wise....

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 03:26 AM
"Pros" of the PeaceCorp:

1.Traveling for free, yet knowing full well that your helping this evil government repair its reputation around the world, a reputation that was achieved through years of abuse
U could drive down to Mexico, Central America, and whatnot all by yourself, without compromising your principles

2. If you wanna travel and get to know cultures, join one of the many grassroot Marxist orgs that help out and spread the word in different countries
Its not gonna be free, but you&#39;re gonna be liberating ppl&#39;s minds, instead of clamping more chains on em by polishing this country&#39;s rep and giving these ppl false promises

3. If u need college creds, take a couple of AP classes or take college courses in the summer
Bsides, college is fun, why shorten your stay?

4. Resume? Who exactly are u trying to impress?
I&#39;d say that if you&#39;re going to major in PoliSci, joining grassroot orgs that have and push a political agenda should be enough
The more revolutionary, the merrier

5. U don&#39;t have to join the PeaceCorp to help ppl, u can do that yourself or with one of the many org that are repped here on RevLeft


If you&#39;re concerned about what they&#39;re gonna pay u for "helping" ppl on a 2yr trek with the PeaceCorp...I think u got your priorities mixed up
All of us on RevLeft could care less about pay for helping our fellow human beings
Word to tha wise....
OK I will rebuddle your answers corresponding with the numbers.

1. Joining an organization that is against communist principles is one thing, but joining something that is helping people from third world countries is another. Yes, it is funded by the government, but I believe in the philosophy that if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em, at least to an extent. I am not going to be able to stop capitalism all at once, because as someone said it is a slow but surely process. Besides, nothing can compromise my own opinion and principles unless it is something I truly believe is right.

2. Well see, that a big problem. I don&#39;t have money to be spending and the more free things I can get, the better. I am currently working helping my parents pay for basic necessities and if I have the chance to have an easier way, I’m not going to pass it up. And besides, it is actually a bad idea to spread any kind of political philosophy in the peace corps, whether it be capitalism, democracy, or anarchy. The whole purpose is just to help the countries there, not to input a system of government there.

3. Whether or not college is fun, I would like to make it as quick as possible because learning from my sisters, college is very expensive.(Even with grants and such.)

4.Well considering that money is a big factor in society right now, I&#39;m not going to totally ignore that we live in a class system. And by keeping with today&#39;s status quo, I am still trying to make some money so I can at least make life for my family a little bit easier. So if I can impress any big corporation, then that is a plus for me. But like I said, nothing can change my beliefs, and whether or not I do get money, I still believe in a true communist philosophy.

5. I have considered joining organizations here in so-cal but right now, my priorities are just too big for me to ignore and just can&#39;t be done.

Like I said, I believe in communist ideals, but why am I going to ignore that I still live in a capitalistic society? To get into college, it takes money. To get money, you have to live by the rules, no matter how unbearable it may be. You must learn to take what you can and no point in sacrificing legitimate opportunities.

[Tekun]

1. Joining an organization that is against communist principles is one thing, but joining something that is helping people from third world countries is another. Yes, it is funded by the government, but I believe in the philosophy that if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em, at least to an extent. I am not going to be able to stop capitalism all at once, because as someone said it is a slow but surely process. Besides, nothing can compromise my own opinion and principles unless it is something I truly believe is right.

Of course the PeaceCorp is helping to an "extent", but its doing more harm than anything else
How, because it dupes the ppl of that country into believing the lies of the American gov, thus they open the door and allow the US and its economic partners to plunder their country even more, creating poverty, and worsening their plight

Let me get this straight, u believe in "if u can&#39;t beat em, join em?"
If all of us believed in that, how would we ever defeat capitalism and its cronies?



2. Well see, that a big problem. I don&#39;t have money to be spending and the more free things I can get, the better. I am currently working helping my parents pay for basic necessities and if I have the chance to have an easier way, I’m not going to pass it up. And besides, it is actually a bad idea to spread any kind of political philosophy in the peace corps, whether it be capitalism, democracy, or anarchy. The whole purpose is just to help the countries there, not to input a system of government there.

I dig where you&#39;re coming from...but IMO nothing is ever worth enough for you to compromise your principles (im in the same boat too)
The "easier way" is not always the right thing to do
U honestly think that the US is not spreading its "freedom loving democracy" via the PeaceCorps? Of course they&#39;re not gonna be out preaching Locke and Smith, but don&#39;t u think they&#39;re promoting their interpretation of democracy through programs that appear to help ppl in developing countries?
Rather naive don&#39;t ya think?



4.Well considering that money is a big factor in society right now, I&#39;m not going to totally ignore that we live in a class system. And by keeping with today&#39;s status quo, I am still trying to make some money so I can at least make life for my family a little bit easier. So if I can impress any big corporation, then that is a plus for me. But like I said, nothing can change my beliefs, and whether or not I do get money, I still believe in a true communist philosophy.

Im not telling you to ignore class and society
We&#39;re all trying to help our families and friends, that&#39;s why we struggle against the forces that create the working class&#39; problems (poverty, lack of healthcare, crime)
If u wanna impress a corporation, then its because u wanna get a job at that corp
And by working at any of these multinational corps you&#39;re, by the nature of the free market, gonna be exploiting worker&#39;s and ppl in the US and around the world
No matter what u believe in, if your actions go against and repress the working class, you&#39;re only lying to yourself
Communists or ppl who believe in communism don&#39;t exploit their working class brothers via the free market
You can&#39;t be both communist and capitalist, doesn&#39;t happen...



5. I have considered joining organizations here in so-cal but right now, my priorities are just too big for me to ignore and just can&#39;t be done.

Like I said, I believe in communist ideals, but why am I going to ignore that I still live in a capitalistic society? To get into college, it takes money. To get money, you have to live by the rules, no matter how unbearable it may be. You must learn to take what you can and no point in sacrificing legitimate opportunities.

We all live in a capitalist society, but just because we live in one doesn&#39;t mean we have to partake or engage in the capitalist system
By working at a corp or a big business, you&#39;re going against communist beliefs, because whether u like it or not, you&#39;re exploiting the working class
Have u ever heard of or seen a communist CEO? That&#39;s an oxymoron

No, as socialists/communists we don&#39;t believe in capitalism&#39;s rules
We seek to change their rules which enslave us to a life of poverty and exploitation
Instead of working and profiting off society&#39;s rules, let&#39;s work to destroy them
Opportunities to exploit the working class...I&#39;ll pass

[Political_Chucky]

Of course the PeaceCorp is helping to an "extent", but its doing more harm than anything else
How, because it dupes the ppl of that country into believing the lies of the American gov, thus they open the door and allow the US and its economic partners to plunder their country even more, creating poverty, and worsening their plight

Let me get this straight, u believe in "if u can&#39;t beat em, join em?"
If all of us believed in that, how would we ever defeat capitalism and its cronies?

Well for one, it is really impossible to change the countries ideals and laws of government because usually it is a whole different constitution then what ours represents and basically I doubt the country would stand for that. The only real basis I can agree with you is that it gives the united states the ability to say that they participate in foreign issues. The whole point of the peace corps however is to avoid poverty from happening, and even with a organization led by capitalistic ideals, this still doesn’t change a mission for peace. You must be realistic about it and realize that just because it is run by the government, it does not mean it is evil. I am sure there are still other non-communist or even non-leftist politicians who really just want a solution to a better world and without going off topic too much(even though we already have), I believe this program may be one benefit in this society and I also think that you have an unhealthy idea that everything is a conspiracy.


dig where you&#39;re coming from...but IMO nothing is ever worth enough for you to compromise your principles (im in the same boat too)
The "easier way" is not always the right thing to do

I don&#39;t see how participating in it compromises my principles. If I were to change them just because I am in a foreign nation that would probably never even try to preach to me capitalistic views, then I am a mixed up man and have no morals I could really look up to. But I don&#39;t see how its any different where I am bombarded with propaganda in the history textbooks everyday at school. If I can sustain it from school daily, then I can sustain it from society.


If u wanna impress a corporation, then its because u wanna get a job at that corp
And by working at any of these multinational corps you&#39;re, by the nature of the free market, gonna be exploiting worker&#39;s and ppl in the US and around the world

I wanna impress a corporation so I can make an actual living during the time needed. I can see your point and I would agree with you, but I have actually discussed this with a peer of mine about how that happens when a person has certain ideas about the rebelling of a society or government, and as he grows, it always seems to change due to certain circumstances. I am trying to keep my own opinion and not be swayed by money and other temptations that would lead me away from my real political objective.

Now back on topic and which fits perfectly with what I was describing above, I believe that in order to start this revolution, it might have to be actually be done by a member or group of the higher class. But not just a person who is really intrigued by the money. It has to be someone who has been from the working class in a previous time, and made his way up the ladder. I believe this is because 1. The lower class will feel compelled to listen to him due to his life as a proletarian before he had money. 2. The rich will be forced to listen because now that man or group has the authority and money to point the media in his direction. and finally, 3. If the man or group still has their communist beliefs, then truth is the best weapon out there against propaganda and the government officials. The truth to admit your own faults, the truth about the governments past and modern war against revolution and use of propaganda(which I try and explain in a simple manner here on my Blog (http://www.gnn.tv/A02590)), and the truth about the governments involvement on the people&#39;s oppression. Of course, these 3 principles would apply well to any politician, but would work effectively for a communist revolution.

[Rawthentic]

That last paragraph was very reactionary. By climbing up the ladder, you necessarily exploit workers and pursue an individualist ideology. Plus, the idea that they will listen because you were once a proletarian is sick and paternalistic. Worst of all, you say that the rich will listen. That is absurd, as a communist one does not negotiate with the capitalists, he seeks an alternative alongside the oppressed for liberation and the downfall of the rule of the capitalists. And how the fuck is there gonna be a rich communist&#33;&#33;

Joining the Peace Corps while knowing what it represents is ridiculous and hypocritical. It represents imperialism, period. You are not helping the world that way. The Peace Corps "mission for peace" is to quell the opressed desire for rebellion. There can never be peace as long as there are classes.

Look man, if you consider yourself a communist, then your views are gonna have to change dramatically. The way you speak of revolution is perverted and sickening. With the path you are planning to take, you are no revolutionary.

[Forward Union]

And furthermore if this discussion becomes one about the peace corps I will lock it, it has nothing to do with the revolutionaryleft.

[LoneRed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 05:10 AM
This is probably the most useful thing you can do right now:

- Reach out to local Communists
- Engage in military training (either by state or substitute it with self-training)
- Attempt to organize, or join, or unite, other Communists/groups into a committee to discuss what steps need to be taken next

This is what I and some friends are currently doing... note that for military training, RESERVES are often better than full-time military. You get the same training in the Reserves (over a longer period of time) without having to sign over your soul. Atleast that&#39;s how it goes in Canada.

(Also as has been discussed between my friends an I, it is not entirely bad to be deployed into combat, ie Afghanistan -- although it is universally understood that the "peacekeeping" mission there is a fucking farce, it would provide good on-the-ground combat experience that mere military training would not give. We decided against it, but it is an option)

So go on&#33; Go out and start it&#33;
the only problem with that recomendation is that most of us are in the USA, so if we did that we&#39;d most likely be shipped to Iraq, or Iran or who knows

[Tekun]

Well for one, it is really impossible to change the countries ideals and laws of government because usually it is a whole different constitution then what ours represents and basically I doubt the country would stand for that. The only real basis I can agree with you is that it gives the united states the ability to say that they participate in foreign issues. The whole point of the peace corps however is to avoid poverty from happening, and even with a organization led by capitalistic ideals, this still doesn’t change a mission for peace. You must be realistic about it and realize that just because it is run by the government, it does not mean it is evil. I am sure there are still other non-communist or even non-leftist politicians who really just want a solution to a better world and without going off topic too much(even though we already have), I believe this program may be one benefit in this society and I also think that you have an unhealthy idea that everything is a conspiracy.

As socialists and communists, we seek to destroy any and all bourgeois constitutions which do nothing but exploit and repress us, the working class
Only through revolution can we destroy these "laws"
Accepting them and living by them does nothing to relieve our oppression
That&#39;s what I think you&#39;re not understanding, if we accepted them, our oppression would continue, if we destroy them and set up a true constitution that is both fair and equal for ALL ppl in society, all in society would benefit

The US doesn&#39;t care about participating in foreign issues, because the reality is that they control foreign countries
Furthermore, the fact that u think that the PeaceCorp exists to prevent poverty or to relieve it, is rather naive
The PeaceCorp has been in Africa for 40yrs, what if anything have they accomplished? Poverty is still there, so is exploitation, and so is the US which is partly responsible for perpetuating the poverty in that country via capitalism
Peace? Bro, look at the reality, this country and ALL its organizations could care less about peace, as long as their economic interests are met
40 yrs in Africa, the PeaceCorp has been, and of all the things that are missing in that country (food, shelter, infrastructure) none has a bigger impact on the continent than the lack of peace

The government has created my plight, your plight, and the misery under which all the working class lives, internationally and domestic working class
That&#39;s enough evidence to convict this country, of doing nothing but of spreading its evil
As long as the interests of politicians and their business partners are met, they could care less about poverty and misery around the world, Africa is a great example

Conspiracy? PeaceCorp has been in Africa for 40yrs, has poverty been reduced, has aids decreased, has exploitation been abolished? I rest my case



I don&#39;t see how participating in it compromises my principles. If I were to change them just because I am in a foreign nation that would probably never even try to preach to me capitalistic views, then I am a mixed up man and have no morals I could really look up to. But I don&#39;t see how its any different where I am bombarded with propaganda in the history textbooks everyday at school. If I can sustain it from school daily, then I can sustain it from society.

Hmmm, u claim to believe in communism, yet you want to help an organization that has done nothing but justified American imperialism
U can sustain it propaganda from a textbook
But as soon as u join the PeaceCorp u become an active participant in the governments propaganda machine
Just to give u an idea, the following are the PeaceCorps main goals, according to their website:


1.Helping the people of interested countries in meeting their need for trained men and women.
2.Helping promote a better understanding of Americans on the part of the peoples served.
3.Helping promote a better understanding of other peoples on the part of Americans.

Propaganda machine, nuff said



I wanna impress a corporation so I can make an actual living during the time needed. I can see your point and I would agree with you, but I have actually discussed this with a peer of mine about how that happens when a person has certain ideas about the rebelling of a society or government, and as he grows, it always seems to change due to certain circumstances. I am trying to keep my own opinion and not be swayed by money and other temptations that would lead me away from my real political objective.

Corporate scum don&#39;t make a living, they make the living of 2 or 3 ppl by exploiting us, the working class (ppl like my father, my friends, and me)
Once your making big dough, everything changes
They can easily destroy your principles by giving u a bigger and bigger paycheck, which is the way that all these "ideological" politicians become corrupted via soft money and the likes of Abramoff
U can&#39;t destroy the system by working within it

That last section is, like my boy Hasta said, reactionary and incredibly elitist, now that I kinda think about it, it sounds rather fascist
Communism does not rely on a wealthy individual, its about the masses of working class ppl who lead the revolution

1.The working class is not looking for &#036;, they&#39;re looking for a more confortable and equal life
They won&#39;t follow one man who has &#036;, and who at one time exploited them in order to make his &#036;
In addition, the revolution is not about one man with a moral responsibility, its about the working class that at one point will feel the need to rebel after years of abuse
Your example is a type of perverted socialism

2. The rich will never listen to him unless he&#39;s for the bourgeoisie, and caters to the bourgeoisie
Furthermore, this lil example of yours sounds alot like a dictatorship

3. We don&#39;t need one man to "remember" communist principles
Because our conditions reiterate the need for communist actions against the capitalists


I seriously advise u to read the Manifesto or Capital, so u can understand how communism and socialism works
Because your assertions have very lil socialist substance
If anything, its a form of perverted socialism that sounds alot like fascism
U should check out our Learning section also, so u can truly understand classism and why we&#39;re trying to get rid of it

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 05:35 AM
We&#39;re waiting for the masses to become politically conscious.
You might be waiting, but that&#39;s not really the best thing to do. It would be far more effective to join an organisation and aggitate within the wider working class and youth for socialism to develop the class consciousness needed to changes societies. A lot of that can be hard, tedious and at times not all that intersting. However it makes a difference.

[Darth Revan]

It will take a lot of time to organize a revolution its possible that only our grandchildren will see it but we must fight for a better future not for our self but for the future generations remember Rome wasn&#39;t build one day its a long proses that will take a lot of time you don&#39;t just grab a gun and overthrow the government you need more than that we must educate the people in order to make them aware about the oppression under witch they are living

[bolshevik butcher]

We also have to educate ourselves, at time when political activity is low it is the correct time for us to familiarise ourselves with marxist theories so that we know how best to act and organise when times call for a higher level of activity; ie when class consciousness is higher.

[Darth Revan]

Agreed

[Political_Chucky]

Hmmm, u claim to believe in communism, yet you want to help an organization that has done nothing but justified American imperialism
U can sustain it propaganda from a textbook
But as soon as u join the PeaceCorp u become an active participant in the governments propaganda machine
Just to give u an idea, the following are the PeaceCorps main goals, according to their website:

Since they are going to lock the thread because it is a "supposable" unrelated topic and turning into a peace corp thread, I will reply to you about that in a PM. But I will reply to one statement you made openly which is connected to what we are talking about.


Conspiracy? PeaceCorp has been in Africa for 40yrs, has poverty been reduced, has aids decreased, has exploitation been abolished? I rest my case

It has also been about 134 years since The Communist Manifesto came out and the idea of it been spread, yet have we seen a revolution in America? Once again the corrupted higher official has used propaganda against the society.


Corporate scum don&#39;t make a living, they make the living of 2 or 3 ppl by exploiting us, the working class (ppl like my father, my friends, and me)

And you think you are alone? My parents are fighting the fucking system just to keep our house and give us some luxury. Don&#39;t think you’re alone. But you cannot determine a persons moral simply on money. When a worker starts to see he is gaining riches, he does not simply turn corrupt. He knew the value it took to get him there. But the problem with that capitalistic way is that usually people who are born into it don&#39;t know any other way, or simply don&#39;t care which is the cause for the corruptness.

Now if we were able to gain power and voice in a capitalistic society, then we could use it to our advantage. Just because if we were to have money does not mean we would use it for our own priorities&#33; We give back to the community, help proletarian workers, and show them we indeed care for their minds and values.

I strongly disagree with your statement that "You can&#39;t destroy the system by working within it." That would be a valuable key to winning this war against classes. We could stop the effect of propaganda. Look at Malcolm x for example. He used the media for his own cause, preaching to the people about black liberty and his hatred in a racist, capitalistic society. To work in a political position is no different. We must begin to enlighten the lower class because most of America&#39;s lower class is ignorant of politics PERIOD. Then we must Sway the minds of other politicians, and point out the corrupt to society.


1.The working class is not looking for &#036;, they&#39;re looking for a more comfortable and equal life

But how do you gain a comfortable and equal life in modern America? By gaining money. That is all the workers know. I personally don&#39;t intend to exploit the workers. But could you please define how raising yourself into a higher position is exploiting the workers if you are still giving back? Since the old way of preaching communism is not working, I believe this is the only way.

I must also clarify that when describing the steps that need to be taken, this is the responsibility of many communist believers, not just one man. It would take a number of people for the proletarian of America to realize that he has been abused. And once more and more ghettos are engrossed with the idea of communism, the more people will join, until the majority of the mass has been enlightened.

This is far from a dictatorship as you name it. There is no form of government in this rebellious period and no specific man would be appointed as the ruler of a nation.

I have read the manifesto and disagree with your label of a fascist. This idea does not put one person about the law and doesn&#39;t use the ideology of communism for the right to dominate others without moral restraint. I respect your views but find them rather........ "closed."

[Rawthentic]

Oh my god, where can I start? First if all the Communist Manifesto was written 134 years ago, but that does not make it obsolete. One only has to look at Oaxaca to confirm that. It does not have to do on a book, but the class struggle, and as long as there are classes there will always be revolutions. Just because Africa hasnt staged a successful revolution, doesnt mean that it will be that way, there are historical conditions that need to be met for a revolution to occur.


We give back to the community, help proletarian workers, and show them we indeed care for their minds and values.
What the fuck? You mean like Bill Gates? The only way to "enlighten" the workers like your elitist ass says is by communicating with them and help to make available the socialist alternative.


I strongly disagree with your statement that "You can&#39;t destroy the system by working within it." That would be a valuable key to winning this war against classes. We could stop the effect of propaganda. Look at Malcolm x for example. He used the media for his own cause, preaching to the people about black liberty and his hatred in a racist, capitalistic society. To work in a political position is no different. We must begin to enlighten the lower class because most of America&#39;s lower class is ignorant of politics PERIOD. Then we must Sway the minds of other politicians, and point out the corrupt to society.

Oh boy. Malcolm X did not use the capitalist media to spread his message. You cant use capitalist media to spread anti-capitalist propaganda. By becoming a politician, you immediately become divorced from the working-class and must now cater to the ruling-class because they control society. This would also make you a reformist, in which case you do not belong here. Your notion of "swaying" politicians is also absurd, its like asking them to give up there comfortable lifestyles and point out the corruption that THEY are a part of.


But how do you gain a comfortable and equal life in modern America?
I know, socialist revolution. :wacko: You cannot rise up in society without exploitation taking place, thats how capitalism works. If you give back, the only thing that you are doing is letting them have the crumbs of what you have. What is the old way of preaching communism? There is no "old" way or "new" way, there is one way, that is by assimilating into the proletariat and into their daily struggles to gain there confidence and help them see the alternative.


I suggest that you listen to us, dont go out and contaminate socialism with some sick, ridiculous, and reactionary way of implementing socialism.

THE WAY YOU ARE GOING AND THINKING, YOU ARE NO REVOLUTIONARY. YOU ARE A UTOPIAN AND REACTIONARY.

[Political_Chucky]

Oh my god, where can I start? First if all the Communist Manifesto was written 134 years ago, but that does not make it obsolete. One only has to look at Oaxaca to confirm that. It does not have to do on a book, but the class struggle, and as long as there are classes there will always be revolutions. Just because Africa hasnt staged a successful revolution, doesnt mean that it will be that way, there are historical conditions that need to be met for a revolution to occur.

Right now what you have in the many countries of Africa is that you don&#39;t have an established government where there are classes. They are more or less a society where they are beyond poverty since most of the white men who were oppressing the population have gone. I think you might have marches in Africa for protest, I&#39;m not really sure about that. But it is usually being countered by more conservative groups from European and westernized civilizations. They send these groups who are sent to place an American sympathizer in the leader for that country. Africa has been contained by conservatives which is why there hasn&#39;t been a revolution or a increased in poverty. It all goes back to this, THE PEOPLE NEED TO BE EDUCATED. If you are going to argue this, Che once said," In order for the people to overthrow the government, the people need to be educated. In order for the people to be educated, the government needs to be overthrown." or something along those lines.


What the fuck? You mean like Bill Gates? The only way to "enlighten" the workers like your elitist ass says is by communicating with them and help to make available the socialist alternative.

How the fuck am I an elitist when I’m working to the same goal you are. I think you are confused on what we are talking about, revolution or the government. The revolution standpoint should be fought on all sides, but there must be someone working from the inside is what I believe. Bill Gates has nothing to do with this. Yes he is distributing his money, but that is for his own foundations and beliefs. He is really not helping the American poverty. If he was, he wouldn&#39;t be the richest man in the world. With someone as rich as Bill Gates, he can afford to donate a few billion dollars and still be a rich man where as if I was to have a billion dollars, I would donate until I had enough to support me and my family, in a capitalistic society that is. I am not talking about being a rich man(which I would not even achieve now) in a communist government. I am not above the law. I am talking about a revolution, and during this time nothing is organized. Your getting these two mixed up and making yourself look like a fool.




Oh boy. Malcolm X did not use the capitalist media to spread his message. You cant use capitalist media to spread anti-capitalist propaganda. By becoming a politician, you immediately become divorced from the working-class and must now cater to the ruling-class because they control society. This would also make you a reformist, in which case you do not belong here. Your notion of "swaying" politicians is also absurd, its like asking them to give up there comfortable lifestyles and point out the corruption that THEY are a part of.

First off, I NEVER SAID CAPITALIST MEDIA. And secondly, by swaying the politicians minds, THAT IS NOT THE PRIMARY GOAL and you should know that. Do not twist my words. The whole idea of using the MEDIA, is to point out the corrupted, and the media can be used as tool. Look at the current news about that politician having sex with young 18 year old boys. The media will not hesitate to pounce on a corrupt politician. Also how is it that George Bush is constantly bombarded with critics and other politicians? If you are able to direct the media in your direction, there is no limit to what you can do. Since you don&#39;t seem to understand the definition, propaganda, according to dictionary.com, is the information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc. There are many people on television tryin to repel propaganda, but more or less from the local networks. I suggest you read my article A Violent Truth (http://www.gnn.tv/articles/2590/A_Violent_Truth) because I don&#39;t think you seem to understand that. Malcolm X indeed did use the media to spread his message. Why do you think he had such an impact all over the U.S.? He did speak at many colleges around the country that is true, but the media also gave him an image. Every individual in the U.S. took it a different way, but as the media portrayed him as an antagonist towards American values, what did the mass end up looking at him as? As a true spokesman of black liberation.


I know, socialist revolution. :wacko: You cannot rise up in society without exploitation taking place, thats how capitalism works. If you give back, the only thing that you are doing is letting them have the crumbs of what you have. What is the old way of preaching communism? There is no "old" way or "new" way, there is one way, that is by assimilating into the proletariat and into their daily struggles to gain there confidence and help them see the alternative.

My friend once told me about an ignorant friend of his that said to be among proletarians is to lower yourself and put yourself down, but that is not true. I believe that in order to lead the proletariat, you need to teach them, get them aware. I can agree with assimilating with them, but how do you intend to help them see the alternative? You can&#39;t do this working from the bottom up. It must be done from all sides, from the inside, and also from the proletarian stand point.




I suggest that you listen to us, dont go out and contaminate socialism with some sick, ridiculous, and reactionary way of implementing socialism.

THE WAY YOU ARE GOING AND THINKING, YOU ARE NO REVOLUTIONARY. YOU ARE A UTOPIAN AND REACTIONARY.

There is nothing impractical to my theories. All of this is very plausible and for you to dismiss it makes YOU VERY ARROGANT AND UNCULTIVATED.

[Rawthentic]

They are more or less a society where they are beyond poverty since most of the white men who were oppressing the population have gone. I think you might have marches in Africa for protest, I&#39;m not really sure about that. But it is usually being countered by more conservative groups from European and westernized civilizations. They send these groups who are sent to place an American sympathizer in the leader for that country. Africa has been contained by conservatives which is why there hasn&#39;t been a revolution or a increased in poverty.

Africa is beyond poverty&#33; Wow, NOW you&#39;re freakin me out&#33; Africa has not had a revolution because they have not reached the historical conditions or social consciousness. Africa is contained by capitalism, not conservative groups. Also, the black ruling classes oppress the black working-classes in Africa. Just because there arent that much whites in SOME parts, that doesnt mean the end of oppression.

I cant beleive you said that Africa is a society where there is no established government or classes. It is capitalist, so there are classes. Geez, can you at least tell me what constitutes a class?



How the fuck am I an elitist when I’m working to the same goal you are. I think you are confused on what we are talking about, revolution or the government. The revolution standpoint should be fought on all sides, but there must be someone working from the inside is what I believe. Bill Gates has nothing to do with this. Yes he is distributing his money, but that is for his own foundations and beliefs. He is really not helping the American poverty. If he was, he wouldn&#39;t be the richest man in the world. With someone as rich as Bill Gates, he can afford to donate a few billion dollars and still be a rich man where as if I was to have a billion dollars, I would donate until I had enough to support me and my family, in a capitalistic society that is. I am not talking about being a rich man(which I would not even achieve now) in a communist government. I am not above the law. I am talking about a revolution, and during this time nothing is organized. Your getting these two mixed up and making yourself look like a fool.

No, you are confused on what revolution is, and how it is reached. You cannot work inside the system to defeat it, thats reformism, and stop the conspiracy theory shit because this isnt Hollywood. So, would you consider that being a billionare would help the communist cause? Cause if you do on youre on some good shit. When you are rich, you are bourgeios, you cannot educate the masses on revolution being bourgeios, you need to be one of them. No such thing as a communist government, that is an oxymoron.


First off, I NEVER SAID CAPITALIST MEDIA. And secondly, by swaying the politicians minds, THAT IS NOT THE PRIMARY GOAL and you should know that. Do not twist my words. The whole idea of using the MEDIA, is to point out the corrupted, and the media can be used as tool. Look at the current news about that politician having sex with young 18 year old boys. The media will not hesitate to pounce on a corrupt politician. Also how is it that George Bush is constantly bombarded with critics and other politicians? If you are able to direct the media in your direction, there is no limit to what you can do. Since you don&#39;t seem to understand the definition, propaganda, according to dictionary.com, is the information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc. There are many people on television tryin to repel propaganda, but more or less from the local networks. I suggest you read my article A Violent Truth because I don&#39;t think you seem to understand that. Malcolm X indeed did use the media to spread his message. Why do you think he had such an impact all over the U.S.? He did speak at many colleges around the country that is true, but the media also gave him an image. Every individual in the U.S. took it a different way, but as the media portrayed him as an antagonist towards American values, what did the mass end up looking at him as? As a true spokesman of black liberation.

You cannot use the media to educate the masses. The alternative media is maybe like 2% or less of the media. It is impossible to try and compete with the capitalist media. I dont give a shit if the media exposed a pedophile, why the fuck doesnt it expose the misery in the world? Because it is capitalist and they wont profit off of that. Nope, Malcolm X used books and papers and speeches to spread his word, not the media, he cant, because its capitalist. I already talked about this above.


My friend once told me about an ignorant friend of his that said to be among proletarians is to lower yourself and put yourself down, but that is not true. I believe that in order to lead the proletariat, you need to teach them, get them aware. I can agree with assimilating with them, but how do you intend to help them see the alternative? You can&#39;t do this working from the bottom up. It must be done from all sides, from the inside, and also from the proletarian stand point.

Wrong. You cannot help them from all sides, only from the proletarian standpoint, and it cant be done by being rich and trying to dissuade them because of your position in power. A proletarian revolution can only be achieved in this way, none other. This is class struggle. Proletarians stand in conflict with the bourgeioisie, you cant be bourgeios and help them fight for revolution.


There is nothing impractical to my theories. All of this is very plausible and for you to dismiss it makes YOU VERY ARROGANT AND UNCULTIVATED.

Theyre not just impractical, they are ignorant, flagrant, utopian, reactionary, idiotic, whatever you want buddy. I am not uncultivated just because I wont accept your ridiculous schemes, and Im not arrogant because I proved you wrong on all points.

[Political_Chucky]

.........I really don&#39;t know what to say to you.....after this post, I will no longer acknowledge you unless you make points with concrete evidence.


Africa is beyond poverty&#33; Wow, NOW you&#39;re freakin me out&#33; Africa has not had a revolution because they have not reached the historical conditions or social consciousness. Africa is contained by capitalism, not conservative groups. Also, the black ruling classes oppress the black working-classes in Africa. Just because there arent that much whites in SOME parts, that doesnt mean the end of oppression.

Just so it is convenient for you, I will point all the necessary evidence from Wikipedia(Africa) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa#Post-colonial_Africa)
"Due largely to the effects of colonialism, corrupt governments and despotism, Africa is the world&#39;s poorest inhabited continent. According to the United Nations&#39; Human Development Report in 2003, the bottom 25 ranked nations (151st to 175th) were all African nations. [4]"................."While rapid growth in China and now India, and moderate growth in Latin America, has lifted millions beyond subsistence living, Africa has gone backwards in terms of foreign trade, investment, and per capita income. This poverty has widespread effects, including lower life expectancy, violence, and instability -- factors intertwined with the continent&#39;s poverty."............"Failed government policies and political corruption combined with the effects of global climate change have resulted in many widespread famines"

First of all, if any communist revolution was to happen in any continent, it would be Africa. If anything, Africa is due for a revolution by 100&#39;s of years. Now, with the exception of South Africa and apparently Botswana( which I really did not know), most of the countries of Africa are in poverty. I might have been wrong about the Peacecorp after all, at least in Africa because it really does not seem as if it is doing ne good there. But as for your argument against conservatives, American conservatism is basically the same shit as capitalism. Enough said on that.


I cant beleive you said that Africa is a society where there is no established government or classes. It is capitalist, so there are classes. Geez, can you at least tell me what constitutes a class?

In most cases, there isn&#39;t an established government or class. Of course there are some exceptions to the case, but the civil war in the congo is making a disorganized alliance between neighboring states and combined with the poverty state Africa is in, really makes the masses the lower poverty-state people.


No, you are confused on what revolution is, and how it is reached. You cannot work inside the system to defeat it, thats reformism, and stop the conspiracy theory shit because this isnt Hollywood. So, would you consider that being a billionare would help the communist cause? Cause if you do on youre on some good shit. When you are rich, you are bourgeios, you cannot educate the masses on revolution being bourgeios, you need to be one of them. No such thing as a communist government, that is an oxymoron.

Working in the inside the way I am describing is not reformism. Those are steps necessary in a revolution. I am not talking about changing capitalistic society into a better one, I am talking aboutchanging capitalism into a true communistic ideal. You don&#39;t seem to understand that there is more then one way to do it and if there is any other way, you seem to think it must not work. You are completely dismissive when another point is brought up it seems. I mean, please explain WHY it won&#39;t work besides your own theories. Give me concrete evidence and I will change my perspective. Communism is a form of government There is a form a government for everything. Anarchy is a form of government. Anarchy is the rule of one persons self rule. Any kind of rule is a form of government. It may not be a big federal government as we call it, but it is a government.

Do you even know what revolution means? A revolution is a radical change in the country&#39;s constitution. You can go as far as the civil rights movement, it was a revolution. It was a radical change of the constitution. You need to change your view of revolution. Peaceful negotiations need to take place first, and if that does not work, violent revolution is to take place. A revolution can take place in any class. In 1984, George Orwell describes how the main character Winston realizes that the middle class needs the proletarians to revolt against the government to achieve its goals. Che was even one of these. He had a rich background, owned a plantation and helped start the Cuban Revolution Your very ignorant and uneducated on your part if you really believe this.


You cannot use the media to educate the masses. The alternative media is maybe like 2% or less of the media. It is impossible to try and compete with the capitalist media. I dont give a shit if the media exposed a pedophile, why the fuck doesnt it expose the misery in the world? Because it is capitalist and they wont profit off of that. Nope, Malcolm X used books and papers and speeches to spread his word, not the media, he cant, because its capitalist. I already talked about this above.


You really need to read. Malcolm X would only comment to certain magazines he knew who wouldn&#39;t show him in a negatively way with a couple of interviews in playboy, on the radio, and in his book. If you want any cites, pm me and I will gladly give you these for your own references.



Wrong. You cannot help them from all sides, only from the proletarian standpoint, and it cant be done by being rich and trying to dissuade them because of your position in power. A proletarian revolution can only be achieved in this way, none other. This is class struggle. Proletarians stand in conflict with the bourgeioisie, you cant be bourgeios and help them fight for revolution.

Wrong. You can. Che did it, why can&#39;t anyone else?




Theyre not just impractical, they are ignorant, flagrant, utopian, reactionary, idiotic, whatever you want buddy. I am not uncultivated just because I wont accept your ridiculous schemes, and Im not arrogant because I proved you wrong on all points.

You have proved me wrong in none of my points. Your arguments have no concrete evidence and no practical information that really makes any sense. I believe that you have been mis-informed by propaganda and need a real informative read to educate yourself more throughly. You are simply misinformed, ignorant, misguided, and a DUMBASS.

[Tekun]

It has also been about 134 years since The Communist Manifesto came out and the idea of it been spread, yet have we seen a revolution in America? Once again the corrupted higher official has used propaganda against the society.


What does this have to do with the PeaceCorp? Anyways....of the many reasons why we haven&#39;t seen a revolution in this country is primarily because of Lenin&#39;s old theory of the labor aristocracy
Ppl in developed countries are content with what they have and by exploiting the lesser developed countries, and it is the ppl from 3rd world countries that are more prone to revolution due to their material conditions

Propaganda plays a role, but its not the biggest reason that revolution hasn&#39;t occured
Therez propaganda which urges all Americans to vote, yet America has one of the lowest voter turnouts in the world
So propaganda has had a small and limited impact on the absence of revolution in the US
Therefore, it makes no sense for one man like u suggested to wield the arms of the media to "our" advantage
Only through worker&#39;s unity, consciousness, and strength can the revolution materialize



And you think you are alone? My parents are fighting the fucking system just to keep our house and give us some luxury. Don&#39;t think you’re alone. But you cannot determine a persons moral simply on money. When a worker starts to see he is gaining riches, he does not simply turn corrupt. He knew the value it took to get him there. But the problem with that capitalistic way is that usually people who are born into it don&#39;t know any other way, or simply don&#39;t care which is the cause for the corruptness.

I never said I was the only one, I was merely giving an example
If you&#39;re parents are fighting the system, why would u want to partake in this same system?
Socialism and communism is not about morality, its about uplifting humanity by empowering the masses
Charity and reform are based on morality, and they&#39;re both staples of the capitalist system, if you think that morality is gonna help starving children in Africa, you&#39;re sorely mistaken

Corruption and capitalism are not the same
Corruption is taking advantage by overstepping the laws
Capitalism is earning money by exploiting others
When corporate scum make money, they&#39;re using the labor of blue-collar workers to increase their income
Ppl who "climb the ladder" and exploit blue-collar workers are just as guilty as those who are born into the capitalist system
In the end, they both drive the working class into a sort of wage slavery in order to increase their income



Now if we were able to gain power and voice in a capitalistic society, then we could use it to our advantage. Just because if we were to have money does not mean we would use it for our own priorities&#33; We give back to the community, help proletarian workers, and show them we indeed care for their minds and values.

If we were to gain power in the capitalist system, we&#39;d end up like the FMLN and the Sandinistas, two reformed social democratic parties that are wealthy and display very little interest in overthrowing the system
Giving back to the community is a capitalist practice of quieting the restless masses by throwing them a bone, it does nothing to kill exploitation nor bring about a proletarian revolution
Its not about charity nor about giving back to the community, our goal is to empower the community and work with them in order to incite a revolution



I strongly disagree with your statement that "You can&#39;t destroy the system by working within it." That would be a valuable key to winning this war against classes. We could stop the effect of propaganda. Look at Malcolm x for example. He used the media for his own cause, preaching to the people about black liberty and his hatred in a racist, capitalistic society. To work in a political position is no different. We must begin to enlighten the lower class because most of America&#39;s lower class is ignorant of politics PERIOD. Then we must Sway the minds of other politicians, and point out the corrupt to society.

If u disagree with my statement, you&#39;re disagreeing with the majority of socialists/communists/anarchists in the world, in addition to disagreeing with Marx and Engels (not to mention Lenin, Fidel, Trotksy,...)

No, Malcolm X used the media to voice his opinions
But rather than enlightening and influencing those through the tube, he alienated him and the NOI from the majority of the US (black and white), who saw him as a zealot and a racist

Again, corruption and capitalism are NOT the same
All politicians are guilty if they work with the capitalist system, rather than the working class
To reach others, we shouldn&#39;t have to own a damn cable station, like what u suggest
But rather through worker&#39;s camps, flyers, unions, and the like




But how do you gain a comfortable and equal life in modern America? By gaining money. That is all the workers know. I personally don&#39;t intend to exploit the workers. But could you please define how raising yourself into a higher position is exploiting the workers if you are still giving back? Since the old way of preaching communism is not working, I believe this is the only way.

I have a way, how about overthrowing the profit driven system?
Worker&#39;s own money by the amount of their labor
Corporate scum, CEO&#39;s, marketers, investors earn money by exploiting the labor of the working class
Once you&#39;re in the system, u can&#39;t help but exploit the workers, you&#39;re not the one who is writing your paycheck nor ordering u around
Giving back doesn&#39;t do anything to improve the long term plight of the proletarian
What does giving a couple of hundred dollars worth of charity do for the children of the working class, they&#39;re not gonna live off charity
Although Marxism is considered archaic, most of its new revisions hurt the working class in order to make it work, as is seen in China&#39;s market-socialism system




This is far from a dictatorship as you name it. There is no form of government in this rebellious period and no specific man would be appointed as the ruler of a nation.

I have read the manifesto and disagree with your label of a fascist. This idea does not put one person about the law and doesn&#39;t use the ideology of communism for the right to dominate others without moral restraint. I respect your views but find them rather........ "closed."

Let me see, u wanted one man-with &#036;-who had the influence of the working class-and who had control of the media.....yeah, that sounds alot like fascism
I might be "closed" but at least Im not willing to exploit my fellow working class brothers and sisters in order to make socialism work, which is in itself an oxymoron

[Rawthentic]

<_<

[Rawthentic]

On the Africa thing, it was a misunderstanding. I believed that you meant that Africa was no longer poor.


In most cases, there isn&#39;t an established government or class. Of course there are some exceptions to the case, but the civil war in the congo is making a disorganized alliance between neighboring states and combined with the poverty state Africa is in, really makes the masses the lower poverty-state people.

Do you know what a fucking class is? It is the relationship to the means of production. You are high if you think that there are no classes or established government.


I mean, please explain WHY it won&#39;t work besides your own theories. Give me concrete evidence and I will change my perspective.

Look bro, I would never finish if I were to prove you wrong. You need to read alot, stay on this forum to expand your knowledge, read Marx and other revolutionaries. If I am to say one thing, its that revolutions are made by workers themselves, and no one else. If you can understand what class struggle is then you are good.


Communism is a form of government

I see what you mean, another misunderstanding. This is a semantics issue, we had a different view of what a government was. Done with that


A revolution is a radical change in the country&#39;s constitution. You can go as far as the civil rights movement, it was a revolution. It was a radical change of the constitution. You need to change your view of revolution. Peaceful negotiations need to take place first, and if that does not work, violent revolution is to take place.

AHHHHHH&#33;&#33;&#33; A revolution is not a radical change in a constitution, it is the seizure of the means of production by the oppressed class. The civil rights movement was not a revolution. Im sorry, but you dont know what a revolution is.


He had a rich background, owned a plantation and helped start the Cuban Revolution Your very ignorant and uneducated on your part if you really believe this.


No he did not. As a child and teen his parents were an affluential middle class family, but as he grew his parents lost this. When the revolution came around, he had lost his bonds as a petty-bourgeios (do you know what this is?) and had become a man of the people, a proletarian revolutionary. Dont try to justify your sick shit by using Che as an example.


Your very ignorant and uneducated on your part if you really believe this.

comrades on RevLeft&#33;&#33;&#33; Help me out here&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Look bro, Im here to help you understand. When I was new, I had similar ideas, but after a while I got how it worked, I read Marx, studied, etc.


Wrong. You can. Che did it, why can&#39;t anyone else?

Wrong again&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Che did not help the Cuban Revolution by being rich, which he was not ever. He helped by giving himself to his people and making the ultimate sacrifice. hey Companero de Libertad, you are the wise dude on the Cuban Revolution, help this guy out.



You have proved me wrong in none of my points. Your arguments have no concrete evidence and no practical information that really makes any sense. I believe that you have been mis-informed by propaganda and need a real informative read to educate yourself more throughly. You are simply misinformed, ignorant, misguided, and a DUMBASS

Sure, I have. On all counts. Dont get offensive, you will NEVER learn like that. All my info, is practical, Marxist and revolutionary. Yours was probably out of your ass.

[Political_Chucky]

What does this have to do with the PeaceCorp? Anyways....of the many reasons why we haven&#39;t seen a revolution in this country is primarily because of Lenin&#39;s old theory of the labor aristocracy
Ppl in developed countries are content with what they have and by exploiting the lesser developed countries, and it is the ppl from 3rd world countries that are more prone to revolution due to their material conditions


Well since you had brought up how the peacecorp hadn&#39;t done anything for Africa in 40 years, I brought up the time frame for The Manifesto.

But I don&#39;t understand...you saying the reason why African countries havn&#39;t seen a revolution is because the rich are fine with what they have and the poor aren&#39;t? Your basically just stating the obvious. Like I explained to hasta....



First of all, if any communist revolution was to happen in any continent, it would be Africa. If anything, Africa is due for a revolution by 100&#39;s of years. Now, with the exception of South Africa and apparently Botswana( which I really did not know), most of the countries of Africa are in poverty.


I don&#39;t understand what your trying to prove....





Propaganda plays a role, but its not the biggest reason that revolution hasn&#39;t occured
Therez propaganda which urges all Americans to vote, yet America has one of the lowest voter turnouts in the world
So propaganda has had a small and limited impact on the absence of revolution in the US
Therefore, it makes no sense for one man like u suggested to wield the arms of the media to "our" advantage
Only through worker&#39;s unity, consciousness, and strength can the revolution materialize


Now I know you really can&#39;t believe that. Propaganda has been one of the many, if not the biggest, reasons why the U.S. has been able to control its people. But really, you can&#39;t compare voting with anything. I remember my friend explained to me different types of propaganda. One type of it is the informative type which urges people to vote, get tested for HIV,to eat right and other things that are basically good for the people.. The other is the more misleading type of propaganda which either advertises or harms a person, place, event, or idea. You really can&#39;t compare informative types of media urging you to vote with propaganda trying to explain why Communism is a threat to America. Besides, a majority of Americans are not educated enough to understand that voting is a big deal. To give you an idea why I say that, let me direct you to an interesting article (http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp). It claims that 79,279,000 U.S. citizens did not vote, more then half of the people that did go out and vote. And like I explained to hasta, che once said "In order for us to overthrow the government, the people need to be educated. But in order for our people to be educated, the government needs to be overthrown." The quote is something along those lines.

So with that, you must not twist my words. I never said JUST one man to "wield the arms of the media." I said,


I must also clarify that when describing the steps that need to be taken, this is the responsibility of many communist believers, not just one man.


When I said the media, I meant every type of it. Television, internet, newspapers, magazines, books and radio. The media is the means of communication that reach or influence people widely. Why not use it to our advantage? It really makes no sense. You say Only through worker&#39;s unity, consciousness, and strength can the revolution materialize... So let me ask YOU something. How do you intend to accomplish this without any type of media, no amounts of money, or any of the above steps that you seem to disagree? We must remember we are all working towards the same goal. Everything I have described is only my theory of a revolution, not the outcome.



I never said I was the only one, I was merely giving an example
If you&#39;re parents are fighting the system, why would u want to partake in this same system?
Socialism and communism is not about morality, its about uplifting humanity by empowering the masses
Charity and reform are based on morality, and they&#39;re both staples of the capitalist system, if you think that morality is gonna help starving children in Africa, you&#39;re sorely mistaken


Why do I want to partake in the system if my parents are fighting it? Same reason everyone else has to. WE DO NOT LIVE IN A COMMUNIST SOCIETY&#33; Everything I have described is the revolution prior to the realization of True Communism. In the meantime, I do need to support myself AND my family. I am not going to ignore that right now in order to survive, money is needed. That would just be idiotic.

How is charity, based on morality, supposable staples of the capitalist system, yet we are trying to enlighten proletarians of how capitalism is against moral values? Where charity is the actions to aid the poor, and communism is basically the annihilation of anything against moral values allowing people to have better equalization. If anything, Communism is virtuous in that sense.



Corruption and capitalism are not the same
Corruption is taking advantage by overstepping the laws
Capitalism is earning money by exploiting others
When corporate scum make money, they&#39;re using the labor of blue-collar workers to increase their income
Ppl who "climb the ladder" and exploit blue-collar workers are just as guilty as those who are born into the capitalist system
In the end, they both drive the working class into a sort of wage slavery in order to increase their income


Its like you ignore everything I am telling you. Instead, let me ask you. Since you are in college and everything, what is your major? What do you plan to do after college? How do you earn your money? What part of riverside, or California do you live in?



If u disagree with my statement, you&#39;re disagreeing with the majority of socialists/communists/anarchists in the world, in addition to disagreeing with Marx and Engels (not to mention Lenin, Fidel, Trotksy,...)


Provide concrete evidence for that statement. I do not see how working with the media or a political party WITH communist ideals would go against the majority of the people you named.



No, Malcolm X used the media to voice his opinions
But rather than enlightening and influencing those through the tube, he alienated him and the NOI from the majority of the US (black and white), who saw him as a zealot and a racist


Once again, the media is not just limited to the television set. But of course a majority of the white Americans looked at him as a racist, he was supporting the ideas of segregation DURING the 1960s and they used this as an excuse. But look at how he had an effect on the country, and how well he got his message across. Since u don&#39;t seem to believe my idea, I will now use Martin Luther King Jr. as an example. Look at how many people followed him in the media&#33; In the end, politicians even supported kings views because they were afraid of black people revolting against them which is why white politicians helped set up the March to Washington. Imagine if King had not stopped there and demanded more change.



Let me see, u wanted one man-with &#036;-who had the influence of the working class-and who had control of the media.....yeah, that sounds alot like fascism
I might be "closed" but at least Im not willing to exploit my fellow working class brothers and sisters in order to make socialism work, which is in itself an oxymoron


No, I wanted a group that is educated, with money or not, who can influence both the working class and if the bourgeois if possible, and use the media as a tool to shift itself against U.S. propaganda. Money, if used correctly, can be used to help the cause in the capitalistic society but will be abolished once it has been transited into the period of revolution.

I do not take kindly when people attack me viciously like Hasta has. I believe he has much to learn before he can comment on such things and that a majority of radicals and extremists have skewed his own opinion. Please answer me those questions however Tekun. How do you intend to accomplish this without any type of media, no amounts of money, or any of the above steps that you seem to disagree with me in a capitalistic society. And also Since you are in college and everything, what is your major? What do you plan to do after college? How do you earn your money? What part of riverside, or California do you live in?

As I said above, we are all working towards the same goal. No matter what you think, (as you have labeled me as a fascist) I believe in true communism, and hope all of you are the same.

[Rawthentic]

I do not take kindly when people attack me viciously like Hasta has. I believe he has much to learn before he can comment on such things and that a majority of radicals and extremists have skewed his own opinion

Okay bro, Ill take it easy. Remember that we are debating the future, so if you cant take staunch, revolutionary criticism, then you need to join the Democratic Party or something. We are revolutionaries, we work with the people, study Marx, read, read, and educate. I am a revolutionary because I understand, using the tools of the revolutionary, such as historical materialism which you most likely dont know about seeing the claims you make, that revolution is a historical process, not something deterministic or utopian as you have made it.

I want you to call on all the comrades on RevLeft, and have them skew my opinions, see who gets attacked. Go ahead , do it. You would get eaten alive by all the knowledgeable comrades. I understand that i have much to learn, but I am mature in revolutionary theory, something which you currently are obviously not. If you want to make this something personal, go right ahead, but we are here to help each other learn, sometimes in a strong, REVOLUTIONARY sense. This is class struggle, there are no niceties. I encourage you to keep learning, and we&#39;ll see who was right. In the meanwhile, i also encourage you to summon all the comrades here, and have them "skew" my opinions. I know that what you think is correct, but me and Tekun see the level that you are at and are disposed to help you.

[Tekun]

Well since you had brought up how the peacecorp hadn&#39;t done anything for Africa in 40 years, I brought up the time frame for The Manifesto.

But I don&#39;t understand...you saying the reason why African countries havn&#39;t seen a revolution is because the rich are fine with what they have and the poor aren&#39;t? Your basically just stating the obvious. Like I explained to hasta....

Are u by any way trying to compare the Manifesto to the PeaceCorp?
The PeaceCorp has done very lil for the ppl of Africa, while the Manifesto has brought about revolutions and revolutionary activity, which has attempted and in many instances improved the lives of ppl, on every continent of the earth

Lenin&#39;s theory of Labor Aristocracy is a lil more complicated than that, u can get a grip on it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_aristocracy)
In addition, there are alot of other reasons why Africa has never experienced a "successful" socialist revolution (underdevelopment, colonialism, rurality, ethnic violence,...)
Nevertheless, we shouldn&#39;t rely on the PeaceCorp to "help" these ppl out of poverty
Like I mentioned, the PeaceCorp will help to a degree (a degree at which the ppl of Africa are still able to labor and cater to rich capitalists), but its main objective is to repair the image of the US, something that we should NOT take part in
Socialism and revolution are their only ally in this profit driven world



Now I know you really can&#39;t believe that. Propaganda has been one of the many, if not the biggest, reasons why the U.S. has been able to control its people. But really, you can&#39;t compare voting with anything. I remember my friend explained to me different types of propaganda. One type of it is the informative type which urges people to vote, get tested for HIV,to eat right and other things that are basically good for the people.. The other is the more misleading type of propaganda which either advertises or harms a person, place, event, or idea. You really can&#39;t compare informative types of media urging you to vote with propaganda trying to explain why Communism is a threat to America. Besides, a majority of Americans are not educated enough to understand that voting is a big deal. To give you an idea why I say that, let me direct you to an interesting article. It claims that 79,279,000 U.S. citizens did not vote, more then half of the people that did go out and vote. And like I explained to hasta, che once said "In order for us to overthrow the government, the people need to be educated. But in order for our people to be educated, the government needs to be overthrown." The quote is something along those lines.

I do believe it, propaganda is effective to a certain degree
Whether it be propaganda which fools ppl into believing in the voting system to propaganda which misconstrues communism, propaganda is propaganda because it influences ppl into doing/believing in something or not

Most ppl in the US, as of right now, aren&#39;t tired of watching the news or hearing news on the radio
TV entertainment began in order to give viewers something else to watch bsides news
Therefore, their "brainwashing" has and has had a limit
However, the reason that most don&#39;t accept communism as theory is because they have very lil info on it
Lack of info and education is IMO the main reason why communism hasn&#39;t thrived
U even mention it yourself (in bold), that a lack of info is what fools ppl into doing something
If u have a limited amount of knowledge regarding a subject, how can u expect to accept and embrace it? In addition, how could communism thrive if there was a very lil info on it, and then it was perverted/misinterpreted by authors hostile to worker&#39;s emancipation?
That is the reason why communism is not as pervasive in the US as it is in Europe
Lack of information and then a bombardment of propaganda (like u said) has completely put an end to any radical leftist movement in the US, due to lack of popular support and hostility
Aside from propaganda and a lack of info, other reasons such as political persecution during the Red Scares, individualism, communists giving communism a bad rep, lack of a vanguard,...have halted any steps that communism has taken in the last 130yrs in the US
Though I am not deterred




Why do I want to partake in the system if my parents are fighting it? Same reason everyone else has to. WE DO NOT LIVE IN A COMMUNIST SOCIETY&#33; Everything I have described is the revolution prior to the realization of True Communism. In the meantime, I do need to support myself AND my family. I am not going to ignore that right now in order to survive, money is needed. That would just be idiotic.

So, in order to support (even though corporate jobs don&#39;t help u support but rather help u thrive) your fam, you&#39;re willing to gentrify more and more ppl?
C&#39;mon man....
Your fam is fighting to keep their house, yet in a couple of yrs, you or the company you&#39;ll work for are gonna be doing the same thing...fighting to take some other family&#39;s house, mimicking the gentrification that your fam is fighting against
That&#39;s not supporting your fam, that&#39;s cheating someone else in order to make a ridiculous amount of paper (kuz that&#39;s exactly what corporate America does), regardless of who the money will help
There are many jobs which don&#39;t necessarily partake in the system
Corporate jobs don&#39;t earn money to survive, they earn in order to thrive and live luxuriously
U gotta realize that




How is charity, based on morality, supposable staples of the capitalist system, yet we are trying to enlighten proletarians of how capitalism is against moral values? Where charity is the actions to aid the poor, and communism is basically the annihilation of anything against moral values allowing people to have better equalization. If anything, Communism is virtuous in that sense.

Charity is all about helping someone who is not as fortunate (whatever that means) in order to feel good about oneself or to do "the right thing"
Morality is a metaphysical sentiment, that determines between what is right and what is wrong, according to that imaginary apparatus known as the conscience
Both of these elements have never materialized nor will they
Therefore, charity is taken up in order to fulfill and satisfy one&#39;s morals
However, charity won&#39;t help anyone, it just offers the recipients false hope and temporary relief, which in the long run does very lil if anything to improve their lives
Capitalists, in order to feel good about what they do and at the same time get rid of any guilt, do charitable things (offering &#036;, supplies, education,...)
But charity will not erase poverty, it only gives those affected by poverty temporary relief, which many argue, only serves to decrease dissatisfaction and rebellion amongs the poor
They don&#39;t care about improving the lives of the poor, because that&#39;s one less market that they would have for them to exploit
Therefore, they lull these ppl to sleep by giving them a few things here and there, without really addressing nor offering a solution to their real problem

Communism is not about moral values, nor has ever been about morality, its always been about material conditions, science, and humanity
Most argue that morality is as irrational towards humans and their experiences, as is religion
Both lack substance, human experience, and materiality
Marx based his theories on history, class conflict, and logic (using empirical evidence to formulate his ideas, u can&#39;t use empirical evidence when talking about morality)
Morality has nothing to do (well almost nothing) with Marx&#39;s theories, we refuse to acknowledge Hegel&#39;s idealism, but rather, emphasize Marx&#39;s historical materialism
Its lengthy to explain, but this is one aspect of communism which I feel that u haven&#39;t discovered yet
Here&#39;s an explanation of Marxism and Historical/Dialectical Materialism (http://www.marxists.org/subject/students/index.htm)



Its like you ignore everything I am telling you. Instead, let me ask you. Since you are in college and everything, what is your major? What do you plan to do after college? How do you earn your money? What part of riverside, or California do you live in?

This is what u said...

Originally posted by PoliticalChucky+--> (PoliticalChucky)When a worker starts to see he is gaining riches, he does not simply turn corrupt. He knew the value it took to get him there. But the problem with that capitalistic way is that usually people who are born into it don&#39;t know any other way, or simply don&#39;t care which is the cause for the corruptness.[/b]
And I answered....

Originally posted by Tekun+--> (Tekun)Corruption and capitalism are not the same
Corruption is taking advantage by overstepping the laws
Capitalism is earning money by exploiting others
When corporate scum make money, they&#39;re using the labor of blue-collar workers to increase their income
Ppl who "climb the ladder" and exploit blue-collar workers are just as guilty as those who are born into the capitalist system
In the end, they both drive the working class into a sort of wage slavery in order to increase their income[/b]

I answered and explained your claims (in bold)
How am I side-stepping anything u say??

If u must know, Im a 4th yr Econ major, with a minor in Marxian Economics - at UCR
Im planning to go into teaching, be it at the university or HS level
And I work at the library
I can decipher where you&#39;re going with this....




Provide concrete evidence for that statement. I do not see how working with the media or a political party WITH communist ideals would go against the majority of the people you named.

I was not referring to the media or a political party (nevertheless, u can add them in), I was talking about the statement that u disagreed with, the "U can&#39;t destroy the system by working within it"
This goes against the belief of almost all socialists, communists, and especially anarchists (this does not include social democrats)

Here&#39;s my concrete evidence:
The State and Revolution by Lenin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/index.htm)
The Principles of Communism by Marx (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm)
The Struggle for State Power by Trotsky (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1917/state.htm)



Once again, the media is not just limited to the television set. But of course a majority of the white Americans looked at him as a racist, he was supporting the ideas of segregation DURING the 1960s and they used this as an excuse. But look at how he had an effect on the country, and how well he got his message across. Since u don&#39;t seem to believe my idea, I will now use Martin Luther King Jr. as an example. Look at how many people followed him in the media&#33; In the end, politicians even supported kings views because they were afraid of black people revolting against them which is why white politicians helped set up the March to Washington. Imagine if King had not stopped there and demanded more change.

Okay, the media isn&#39;t just about TV
No, X didn&#39;t propose segregation, he advocated seperation
....I guess I understand where you&#39;re coming from
Having outlets to inform the public is good, but as long as those outlets are grassroots and non-commercial, nonprofit too



No, I wanted a group that is educated, with money or not, who can influence both the working class and if the bourgeois if possible, and use the media as a tool to shift itself against U.S. propaganda. Money, if used correctly, can be used to help the cause in the capitalistic society but will be abolished once it has been transited into the period of revolution

This is what u said in your initial post:

[email protected]
Now back on topic and which fits perfectly with what I was describing above, I believe that in order to start this revolution, it might have to be actually be done by a member or group of the higher class. But not just a person who is really intrigued by the money. It has to be someone who has been from the working class in a previous time, and made his way up the ladder. I believe this is because 1. The lower class will feel compelled to listen to him due to his life as a proletarian before he had money. 2. The rich will be forced to listen because now that man or group has the authority and money to point the media in his direction. and finally, 3. If the man or group still has their communist beliefs, then truth is the best weapon out there against propaganda and the government officials

So as you can see, u initally claimed that the revolution would have to be led by a man or a group of men from the upper class, with &#036;, and who had ties with the media (in bold)
Sounds like fascism to me

What exactly do u mean by educated?
We don&#39;t have to have money
We&#39;re not trying to buy ppl into believing in communism
Of course resources are helpful to spread communism, but their not vital to our movement&#39;s existence, nor should we focus on having huge amounts of &#036;
The Russian revolution had very lil resources, yet it managed to attract many due to the relevance that communism had on their lives
Money or not, ppl will come when we corroborate and explain a solution to their plight with communist principles



I do not take kindly when people attack me viciously like Hasta has. I believe he has much to learn before he can comment on such things and that a majority of radicals and extremists have skewed his own opinion. Please answer me those questions however Tekun. How do you intend to accomplish this without any type of media, no amounts of money, or any of the above steps that you seem to disagree with me in a capitalistic society. And also Since you are in college and everything, what is your major? What do you plan to do after college? How do you earn your money? What part of riverside, or California do you live in?


Hasta was a lil carried away, but he knows what he&#39;s talking about
We&#39;re all radicals and extremists in society, maybe not u, but communists and anarchists ARE according to bourgeois politics
Communism can be reached through activism, worker&#39;s conciousness/unity/education, and the extreme effects that capitalism and imperialism have on workers and peasants
In addition, if u wanna get a better understanding of my outlook regarding revolution and socialism
Just reread the Manifesto and some of Lenin&#39;s works, I base most of my assumptions and beliefs on these pieces

Im not gonna answer the same question again, and bsides what for, u a Nazi disguised as a communist? We&#39;ve had that happen b4
I don&#39;t live in Riverside, I live in Anaheim



As I said above, we are all working towards the same goal. No matter what you think, (as you have labeled me as a fascist) I believe in true communism, and hope all of you are the same.

I never labeled u a fascist
I labeled your claims as on the verge of fascist
Specifically:

PoliticalChucky
Now back on topic and which fits perfectly with what I was describing above, I believe that in order to start this revolution, it might have to be actually be done by a member or group of the higher class. But not just a person who is really intrigued by the money. It has to be someone who has been from the working class in a previous time, and made his way up the ladder. I believe this is because 1. The lower class will feel compelled to listen to him due to his life as a proletarian before he had money. 2. The rich will be forced to listen because now that man or group has the authority and money to point the media in his direction. and finally, 3. If the man or group still has their communist beliefs, then truth is the best weapon out there against propaganda and the government officials
If u reread this, you&#39;ll also see that its on the verge of fascism (on the verge)
One man, with money, with the media...cmon, that&#39;s on the road towards fascism

Do u know what Social Democracy is? Because, your beliefs have alot in common with the principles of Social Democracy

[BraveNewWorld]

we should have the revolution in 2010&#33; dunno why, just seems like a good idea so get recruiting amd start turning yours cars into T34s&#33;

[Comrade_Scott]

comrade i belive the revolution has already started(but only in small pockets) look at nepal for example... what needs to be done to expand the revolution is to educate the masses and unite under one banner to fight the oppressor which is capitalism

[Comrade Castro]

So then in relation to a revolution in the united states, how many people have actually been shown the truth of communism and would be willing to fight in a revolution? Is there any such statistic, to know how much progress we&#39;ve made, and how much more we must do before armed struggle?

[Rawthentic]

Nope, sorry, no such thing. But it is our job to educate people through theory and action.

[hazer87]

Like zach de la rocha said
"it has to start somewhere, it has to start sometime
what better place than here, what better time than now"


What needs to be done is a mass malitia must be formed and attack D.C. with surprise. with our troops being occupied with dieing to make teh elite richer, the heart of america is weak, especially to a mass, organized strike. When we take Washington, the change can begin.

"it is better to die fighting, than it is to live on your knees" Ernesto "CHE" Guevara

Viva La Revolution