October 5th

[bezdomni]

World Can't Wait (http://www.worldcantwait.net/)


YOUR GOVERNMENT, on the basis of outrageous lies, is waging a murderous and utterly illegitimate war in Iraq, with other countries in their sights.

YOUR GOVERNMENT is openly torturing people, and justifying it.

YOUR GOVERNMENT puts people in jail on the merest suspicion, refusing them lawyers, and either holding them indefinitely or deporting them in the dead of night.

YOUR GOVERNMENT is moving each day closer to a theocracy, where a narrow and hateful brand of Christian fundamentalism will rule.

YOUR GOVERNMENT suppresses the science that doesn't fit its religious, political and economic agenda, forcing present and future generations to pay a terrible price.

YOUR GOVERNMENT is moving to deny women here, and all over the world, the right to birth control and abortion.

YOUR GOVERNMENT enforces a culture of greed, bigotry, intolerance and ignorance.

People look at all this and think of Hitler - and they are right to do so. The Bush regime is setting out to radically remake society very quickly, in a fascist way, and for generations to come. We must act now; the future is in the balance.

Millions and millions are deeply disturbed and outraged by this. They recognize the need for a vehicle to express this outrage, yet they cannot find it; politics as usual cannot meet the enormity of the challenge, and people sense this.

There is not going to be some magical "pendulum swing." People who steal elections and believe they're on a "mission from God" will not go without a fight.

There is not going to be some savior from the Democratic Party. This whole idea of putting our hopes and energies into "leaders" who tell us to seek common ground with fascists and religious fanatics is proving every day to be a disaster, and actually serves to demobilize people.

But silence and paralysis are NOT acceptable. That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn - or be forced - to accept. There is no escaping it: the whole disastrous course of this Bush regime must be STOPPED. And we must take the responsibility to do it.

And there is a way. We are talking about something on a scale that can really make a huge change in this country and in the world. We need more than fighting Bush's outrages one at a time, constantly losing ground to the whole onslaught. We must, and can, aim to create a political situation where the Bush regime's program is repudiated, where Bush himself is driven from office, and where the whole direction he has been taking society is reversed. We, in our millions, must and can take responsibility to change the course of history.

Acting in this way, we join with and give support and heart to people all over the globe who so urgently need and want this regime to be stopped.

This will not be easy. If we speak the truth, they will try to silence us. If we act, they will try to stop us. But we speak for the majority, here and around the world, and as we get this going we are going to reach out to the people who have been so badly fooled by Bush and we are NOT going to stop.

The point is this: history is full of examples where people who had right on their side fought against tremendous odds and were victorious. And it is also full of examples of people passively hoping to wait it out, only to get swallowed up by a horror beyond what they ever imagined. The future is unwritten. WHICH ONE WE GET IS UP TO US.



Get involved (http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=22&Itemid=232)

In your area? (http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=702&Itemid=209)

[violencia.Proletariat]

And the workers will be pouring out of the factories on October 5th :rolleyes:

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 04:20 PM
And the workers will be pouring out of the factories on October 5th :rolleyes:
No, but I'm guessing 8-10 college students will be walking out of their dorms.

[The Grey Blur]

Christ lads that's some revolutionary rhetoric there

[bezdomni]

And how many revolutions have your organizations started?

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 10:55 PM
And how many revolutions have your organizations started?
I was talking to VC and FOB comrade, I respect the struggle you're involved in

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Permanent Revolution+Sep 17 2006, 10:59 PM--> (Permanent Revolution @ Sep 17 2006, 10:59 PM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 10:55 PM
And how many revolutions have your organizations started?
I was talking to VC and FOB comrade, I respect the struggle you're involved in [/b]
That comment wasn't directed at you mate. ;)

[Janus]

Moved.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 06:55 PM
And how many revolutions have your organizations started?
My organization has done more for the workers of America than the RCP has done for anyone. Besides, it is laughable that you call Oct. 5 a revolution. Do you seriously think the workers of america are going to sieze the means of production on Oct.5? :lol:

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 05:55 PM
And how many revolutions have your organizations started?
WARNING!!! - removing Bush from office does not equal revolution.

The WCW is just some liberal, reformist distraction for wannabe radical college students who don't mind waving around green signs on campus.

World Can't Wait! for all politicians to step down.

As I've said before The Revolution Will Not Be Scheduled.

[Liandri Corporation]

Originally posted by FoB+Sep 18 2006, 12:16 AM--> (FoB @ Sep 18 2006, 12:16 AM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 05:55 PM
And how many revolutions have your organizations started?
WARNING!!! - removing Bush from office does not equal revolution.

The WCW is just some liberal, reformist distraction for wannabe radical college students who don't mind waving around green signs on campus.

World Can't Wait! for all politicians to step down.

As I've said before The Revolution Will Not Be Scheduled. [/b]
So instead of doing SOMETHING, you just sit there and continue to be an armchair revolutionary... wonderful.

[RevSouth]

When I clicked on this topic I thought it was about some form of action at a wrestling match. :lol:

[bezdomni]

When I clicked on this topic I thought it was about some form of action at a wrestling match.
:lol:


My organization has done more for the workers of America than the RCP has done for anyone. Besides, it is laughable that you call Oct. 5 a revolution. Do you seriously think the workers of america are going to sieze the means of production on Oct.5?
I didn't call Oct. 5 a revolution, I was just wondering how many revolutions your organization has been behind because I was under the implication that you were saying if it isn't an outright worker's revolution it's not worthwhile.

Has your organization given the means of production to the workers? If not, then it wasn't a socialist revolution so by your own paradigm it wasn't worthwhile.

Seriously, I am sick of armchair revolutionaries that think every action that isn't 100% anarchist or their specific flavor of communist is a complete waste of time. Get into the real world.


WARNING!!! - removing Bush from office does not equal revolution.

The WCW is just some liberal, reformist distraction for wannabe radical college students who don't mind waving around green signs on campus.

World Can't Wait! for all politicians to step down.

As I've said before The Revolution Will Not Be Scheduled.

So have you overthrown any governments lately?

What is more revolutionary? Organizing the masses to increase political awareness and antagonize the bourgeois government, or sitting around criticizing everything.

[which doctor]

Seriously, I am sick of armchair revolutionaries that think every action that isn't 100% anarchist or their specific flavor of communist is a complete waste of time. Get into the real world.
The real world as in reformist politics?
http://www.topsynergy.com/images/famous/John_Kerry_Main.jpg
The WCP isn't a radical organization, it never will be


So have you overthrown any governments lately?
I never said I did, in fact I don't think anyone on this board has.


What is more revolutionary? Organizing the masses to increase political awareness and antagonize the bourgeois government, or sitting around criticizing everything.
The WCW is not organizing the masses, unless of course you consider the masses to be a bunch of yuppie liberals. They're not antagonizing bourgeois government either. Hell, quite a few of their supporters are members of bourgeois government. I bet WCW will support whatever Democratic canidate the yuppies decide to nominate to run against the republicans.

WCW is no more revolutionary than the Democratic party.

[Liandri Corporation]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 01:29 AM
I bet WCW will support whatever Democratic canidate the yuppies decide to nominate to run against the republicans.

WCW is no more revolutionary than the Democratic party.
Your ignorance is quite obvious.

Have you looked at the website for WCW? They clearly don't think elections will change anything. Why don't you go read the FAQ before you go criticizing the event/organization.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Liandri Corporation+Sep 17 2006, 08:38 PM--> (Liandri Corporation @ Sep 17 2006, 08:38 PM)
[email protected] 18 2006, 01:29 AM
I bet WCW will support whatever Democratic canidate the yuppies decide to nominate to run against the republicans.

WCW is no more revolutionary than the Democratic party.
Your ignorance is quite obvious.

Have you looked at the website for WCW? They clearly don't think elections will change anything. Why don't you go read the FAQ before you go criticizing the event/organization. [/b]
Then why are they so liked by so many members of the Democratic Party?

WCW has held days like this before, they accomplish shit.

[bezdomni]

When did the WCW encourage people to vote for Kerry?

Never.

Your "critique" of the WCW is illogical. Just because some democrats support it doesn't mean it is a reformist democrat movement.

Did you even read the part of the declaration that says:

"There is not going to be some savior from the Democratic Party. This whole idea of putting our hopes and energies into "leaders" who tell us to seek common ground with fascists and religious fanatics is proving every day to be a disaster, and actually serves to demobilize people."

Seriously, you should know what the hell you are talking about before you look stupid.

It isn't the WCW that isn't accomplishing shit, it's this this sort of nonsense.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Has your organization given the means of production to the workers? If not, then it wasn't a socialist revolution so by your own paradigm it wasn't worthwhile.

Yes. It has given the power for workers to sieze the means or prodcution. It is a syndicalist union. We are in the process of rebuilding our influence.


Seriously, I am sick of armchair revolutionaries that think every action that isn't 100% anarchist or their specific flavor of communist is a complete waste of time. Get into the real world.

I am in the real world. In the real world I realize that you will not "drive out bush" on Oct. 5. Nor would somehow kicking Bush out of office accomplish anything. The point is to end class exploitation, not get rid of a mouthpiece. I love how your calling me armchair revolutionary when you are going to be holding a damn sign with a group of liberals.

[bezdomni]

I like how you belittle every movement that is not your own.

You also seem to have no idea what WCW is about.

First, on your assumption that we think the WCW is the end-all, be-all movement.


Q: Does protest make any difference?

A: It does -- and it doesn't. Let's start with how it doesn't. Protest doesn't make a damn bit of difference if it's "protest as usual". Protest that trims its sails to the political terms set by electing Democrats, or that tries to be respectable, or that doesn't convey that THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE AND MUST BE BROUGHT TO A HALT. No, protest like that doesn't really amount to much. Never has and never will.

We're talking about tens of thousands going into the streets with a clear standard -- BRING THIS TO A HALT -- and a spirited call to others to join this. Our recent statement envisions "a great wave of people unleashed from the huge reservoir of people who are deeply distressed over the direction in which the Bush regime is dragging the country and the world, moving together on the same occasion, making, through their firm stand and their massive numbers, a powerful political statement that could not be ignored: refusing that day to work, or walking out from work, taking off from school or walking out of school -- joining together, rallying and marching, drawing forward many more with them, and in many and varied forms of creative and meaningful political protest throughout the day, letting it be known that they are determined to bring this whole disastrous course to a halt by driving out the Bush Regime through the mobilization of massive political opposition."

That kind of protest could and would make a difference. It would begin to galvanize into an active political and moral force the millions who hate the way things are going but are now paralyzed. The possibility of turning things around and onto a much more favorable direction would take on a whole new dimension of reality. This would send a different message to the whole world.

Face it: no great change has ever been won without protest, without people acting "from the bottom up" to set a new agenda, without struggle, without upheaval. No. The protests in 2002 and 2003 didn't succeed in preventing the Iraq war, but they let the whole world know that Bush was acting in the face of huge public opposition. They put him on the moral defensive. And they helped to set terms for the future - as the ugliness of the war got revealed and people increasingly have come to oppose it. The problem is not that our actions have had no impact; it's that we have not acted up enough. A new season of upsurge must start now, one that sets out to reverse the whole direction in which this society is now hurtling, and to dramatically change the course of history.

The stakes now are too high to keep going through the motions of protest as usual -- politics that say: the people in government exercise power and make the corresponding decisions and our only role is to protest certain things they do. Instead, we need to act on the truth that when people take massive and independent political action, they can change things very profoundly. People in the 60's did not ask the liberal Democrats then in office for permission to fight for civil rights and Black liberation or to protest the war. They just did it, mobilizing millions and effectively saying in the immortal words of Bob Dylan that "your sons and daughters are beyond your command." The whole ethos of a generation and a country changed.


Second, your assertion that we for some reason think Bush will be driven out on just one day.



Q: But what difference will a single day make?

A: A lot! If it signals a turning point in the political direction of the country. One day won't drive out the Bush regime, but if it brings into being a powerful movement determined to achieve this and breaks open the flood gate of public opinion for this, it can be critical to changing the course of history. But only if October 5 mobilizes enough people -- a critical mass of people -- will it be sufficient to bring into being something that does not exist yet.

You make the difference in whether this happens or not ... if there are enough funds to reach enough people, if your organization is mobilized, if your church congregants are coming, if your friends and family are all debating what they will do that day. Tell everyone you know. History needs to be made that day - where will you be?

Third, the surprisingly common assertion that the WCW is a reformist, democrat-ridden movement.


Q: But isn't getting the Democrats elected and getting a majority in Congress the only real way to stop Bush?

A: Stop him from doing what?

From invading Iran? The Democrats support Bush on Iran.

From outlawing abortion? The Democrats are running anti-choice candidates for the Senate.

From carrying out repression? The Democrats voted overwhelmingly to support the Patriot Act and have done nothing to stop the illegal spying on millions of people.From conducting the war in Iraq? Even Ned Lamont only promises withdrawal "a year from now" and he's already hedged on that - and the rest of the Democrats are doing far worse.

Our Call tells it like it is: "There is not going to be some savior from the Democratic Party. This whole idea of putting our hopes and energies into 'leaders' who tell us to seek common ground with fascists and religious fanatics is proving every day to be a disaster, and actually serves to demobilize people."

The situation is way too urgent to allow yourself to be lulled. The reality is this: without the whole political situation being radically altered by people in this country taking responsibility to act, the current fascistic direction will accelerate. Without decisively breaking out of the confines of official politics… without refusing to take orders from the likes of Charles Schumer and the other top Democrats… without refusing to set an entirely different and radically new dynamic from below, we are headed from this dark time to an even darker one. But if we do set that dynamic from below, then everyone in society -- including those on the top who today make horrific decisions unchallenged -- will be forced to respond to that.

Look, go ahead and vote if you think you must. But the question is where are you going to put your resources and energies? Into something that has disappointed you time and again? Something that doesn't even represent your demands and interests? Or into something that you not only agree with, but that carries the only chance now before us to carve out a different road and a different future? Think of what it will mean for the people of Lebanon, for the survivors of Katrina, for the immigrants under attack, and for the rest of the planet to know that there is a massive and determined movement of people in the United States taking to the streets in cities and towns across the country to demand this be brought to a halt. Imagine the start of a new dynamic - actions producing headlines reading: "Anti-Bush Protests Continue to Bring Cities to a Standstill across the Country." What if THIS were injected into the regular string of shocking atrocities and monstrous crimes being carried out by the Bush regime?

Face it. The political will of the people is not going to find expression through the elections. Look at the state of official politics and how unacceptable the whole process and logic is. There is no other way this fall for people to make manifestly clear that they want the war ended, that they want the right of abortion protected, that they think torture is completely immoral and unacceptable, that they regard a government that abandons and then uproots the Black population of New Orleans as unconscionable. There is no other way to affirm that evolution and global warming are truths that must be acted upon, no way to voice that living under a government that engages in detaining people without trial, spies on its citizens, summarily terminates basic constitutional protections such as due process, and silences dissent is well on its way to becoming a police state - and that all this must be stopped.

And there is no other way to make powerfully clear that we refuse to be dragged into yet another hellish war and nightmarish political situation, this time with Iran!

[violencia.Proletariat]

We're talking about tens of thousands going into the streets with a clear standard -- BRING THIS TO A HALT -- and a spirited call to others to join this

You don't have this support. By the time you could muster this support with a miracle, bush's term will be up.

[SPK]

World Can’t Wait is a front group for the Revolutionary Communist Party USA. I’ve talked and worked with members / supporters of the RCP in the past, and WCW is organized in a very top-down fashion, like most RCP initiatives. They’re trying to use secretive, anti-democratic, vanguardist methods to build a mass movement. Such methods might work in building a Marxist-Leninist party -- or any other closed, underground organization -- but they are not going to work in building an open, growing, dynamic, and creative mass movement. That’s one reason why the turnouts for these WCW events are, with few exceptions, so poor.

I don’t think that the political perspective of WCW makes any sense at all. Come 2008, Bush is not going to attempt to override the constitution and stay in office indefinitely. The ruling elites are going to maintain the fiction of a democratic system, since that ideological screen has worked so well for them in the past and continues to do so today. Elections will be held, some new ruling class puppet will be installed in office, and then, of course, absolutely nothing will change – the usa will still be occupying Iraq, banging the war drums against Iran and Syria, and so on.

That said, I respect people like SP who want to get involved in efforts like WCW. Efforts like RevLeft are useful for honing revolutionary politics -- as with the debates between Marxists and anarchists, for example -- but at some point everyone has to take the lessons learned in these forums and try to apply them in the real world. We can’t just stay holed up in our closed, insular, ideologically homogeneous micro-groupings. Being involved in real, actual, nuts-and-bolts organizing raises a whole set of questions quite unlike, say, debates around the Spanish Civil War. :lol: Questions like: how to structure an organization, what decision-making processes to use, what communities or base to focus on, how to handle ideological differences within a group, and so forth. The WCW / RCP does not have the correct approach to those questions, but SP’s experience there will still be very educational and instructive, in a positive sense and not just in a negative sense.

In any case, its not as if there are many options or alternatives currently available to people who want to do this kind of mass work. The movements in the usa are the weakest I’ve ever seen them – and I’ve been doing activism off and on for years. The national coalitions are either unambiguously oriented towards the liberal / Democratic party spectrum or are controlled by the different Marxist-Leninist parties: Workers World, the Party for Socialism and Liberation, the International Socialist Organization, etc. The anarchists, despite the promise demonstrated after Seattle, from 1999-2001, and despite all of their overheated rhetoric, totally failed to develop any kind of alternative pole for those who wanted to oppose the Iraq occupation with a more radical politics and direct action approach – this was a huge strategic error.

Even the immigrant rights movement, which was able to mobilize millions of people earlier in the year against punitive, anti-immigrant legislation, seems at this point to be stuck. The most recent Labor Day demonstrations at the beginning of the month were poorly attended and appeared to be controlled by elements wanting to move people towards the Democratic Party. Since this movement was overwhelming comprised of immigrants – i.e. people who can’t vote -- and had a strong concentration of youth and middle-school / high-school students – i.e., again people who can’t vote – that kind of liberal, electorally-oriented political line had something to do, I think, with the poor turnout. :lol: More alarmingly, where I’m at in tejas, I’m not currently seeing any new, organized radical tendencies arising out of that immigrant rights movement, which I had expected to see by this time.

So, there aren’t too many avenues to take, in terms of mass organizing. More will undoubtedly arise at some point in the future, but for now it is what it is. Have fun with WCW, SP. Tell us what you learn and don’t pick up too many bad habits from the RCP. :lol:

[Severian]

Despite the militant-sounding rhetoric, this is an objectively pro-Democratic Party effort by the RCP.

Even some people on this board who initially supported "World Can't Wait" eventually realized it was supporting the Democrats. thread link (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=45744)

About this statement, which isn't even recent and has been previously posted on the board:

Originally posted by SovietPants+Sep 17 2006, 01:07 PM--> (SovietPants @ Sep 17 2006, 01:07 PM)World Can't Wait (http://www.worldcantwait.net/)
YOUR GOVERNMENT, on the basis of outrageous lies, is waging a murderous and utterly illegitimate war in Iraq, with other countries in their sights.[/b]

"Your government"? How liberal. No, this is the bosses' government. Maybe a coalition can't say so - but supposed communists leading that coalition could at least avoid "your government", maybe with "the government."

It's part of a larger liberal guilt-trip conducted in more recent RCP/WCW statements - telling people they're "complicit" in the system if they don't join WCW, etc. All things I've listened to ad nauseum by liberals and pacifists at antiwar protests, but it's remarkable to hear 'em from people who claim to be communist.

This government is their government. Working people should oppose it, and all its wars and repression, for the sake of our class interests, our solidarity, our freedom. Not out of guilt. And we are never responsible for its actions, regardless of the intensity or size of working-class struggle against it at any particular time.


Originally posted by 2005 WCW [email protected]
People look at all this and think of Hitler - and they are right to do so. The Bush regime is setting out to radically remake society very quickly, in a fascist way, and for generations to come. We must act now; the future is in the balance.

But of course the actions listed are not just committed by the "Bush regime". The Democratic Party is part of them too. So why is only the Bush regime supposedly fascist? (And who ever heard of a two-party fascist regime?) Why are the Democrats only condemned in the fine print, not in the headlines?

Because this false claim that Bush is fascist, or something close to fascism, serves the same function as usual. Trying to stampede people into a Popular Front with the Democrats.


2005 WCW statement
There is not going to be some magical "pendulum swing." People who steal elections and believe they're on a "mission from God" will not go without a fight.

How ironic. What will the RCP say if the Democrats do in fact win the next election?

I bet their latest statements don't say this.....Yup, Avakian's latest doesn't. (http://www.rwor.org/a/062/baoct5-en.html) Instead, it says it doesn't matter if Democrats get elected. I agree.

But what happened to the prediction that they won't? The certainty that Bush can and will steal elections? Who ever heard of a two-party fascist regime, or a fascist regime that leaves power peacefully?

Down the memory hole. And since they dropped it without seeing the Democrats actually win an election - just based on the possibility they might soon - you gotta conclude:

They never really, deep-down believed any of that "Hitler" crap to begin with.

****

SPK raises some interesting point...I think there are other things to get involved with.

The immigrants' rights actions are happening in an impressive range of places; there should be something near most people in the U.S. The next ones will be Sept. 30.

While the latest ones weren't huge, neither are the RCP's front-group actions, certainly! And the class composition of the immigrant rights actions is far better. I'd suspect they've shrunk partly just because the immediate threat of the Sensenbrenner "felony" bill has gone away for now.

And while the protests do seek to influence Congress, they may actually be less prone to support the Democrats' position on immigration. In the earlier protests, a fair number of people called for support the McCain-Kennedy Act, etc.; but more organizations seem to be adopting a position of legalization for all, now.

For example (http://www.themilitant.com/2006/7032/index.shtml)

Also, it's possible to join that debate and affect the direction of the movement - while the character of WCW is fixed by the RCP, everyone knows it.

So I think that people will learn more by participating in working-class actions like the immigrants' rights movement, or aiding whatever strikes, etc., may be happening in your local area....

[which doctor]

Another funny thing is that two members of the WCW's top commitee are pastors. There are far too many reactionaries in the WCW.

[bezdomni]

Bakunin was an anti-semite.

[which doctor]

Bakunin's not on my central commitee :rolleyes:

[RNK]

If we continue this unhealthy obsession with only supporting "true" communist and/or revolutionary organizations then nothing will ever get done. Everyone has their own unique opinions about who is true to what. Bashing down everybody in your path because of a difference of opinion is completely counter-revolutionary -- instead of concentrating on fighting and debating why you shouldn't support whatever group, you should concentrate on realizing that ANY change, any shift, however slight, is good. Just because it doesn't lead to revolution overnight doesn't mean it's a waste of time. One step towards the left is better than no step.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 03:13 AM
Bakunin's not on my central commitee :rolleyes:
Just thought I'd let you know. ;)

Ernest: Thank you. I was beginning to think this thread was a waste of time.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 12:13 AM
you should concentrate on realizing that ANY change, any shift, however slight, is good.
Some changes are for the worse. You'll notice the WCW/RCP is claiming that Bush is radically changing things for the worse; not entirely without basis. (Though they exaggerate some - and leave the Democrats for the fine print.)

And some changes are not necessarily better nor worse. Like a change from Republican to Democratic.

So it's better to say: support anything that benefits working people. That increases our self-confidence, our consciousness of ourselves as a class, our capacity to change the world. "Even a little", as you say.

The question in dispute here, of course, is whether "World Can't Wait" does that - or the opposite. You're not specially helping figure that out - by proclaiming in general that people need to be less critical.

Thought without action is pointless, certainly. But action without thought is like a chicken with its head cut off.

[ahab]

'Im down for runnin up on them *****es in they city hall'

haha great lyric, true though, im down

[SPK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 05:20 PM
The immigrants' rights actions are happening in an impressive range of places; there should be something near most people in the U.S. The next ones will be Sept. 30.
Give us a report come 9-30 and tell us how those mobilizations went.

[An archist]

You don't organise a revolution, a revolution comes from the masses when they are REALLY dicontent.
I don't see that happening in the near future.

other then that: good luck with the demo

[redwinter]

This shit is really popping off all over the country (and the world!) - over 115 actions going on, and a few even being organized by American exiles in Canada and Switzerland.

October 5th ads have been placed in large newspapers in major cities across the country, in Spanish language media, on both local radio and larger stations like Air America, and are about to hit big websites like MySpace to reach literally millions of youth.

It has increasingly become an important social question in the United States that millions of people here are going to have to answer to in one way or another.



They can't hear you

By RJ Schinner

They didn't hear you yelling at the TV when Bush talked about "staying the course" in Iraq.

They can't see the peace button on your backpack.

They can't hear your laughter at the latest satire of Bush on the Colbert Report.

They didn't hear the phone call to your parents about how utterly insane it is that government torture is becoming legal (though the NSA might have been listening in).

They didn't read the essay you wrote last semester documenting all of Bush's lies about the war on Iraq.

They weren't outside the movie theater when "An Inconvenient Truth" let out to the sound of outraged conversations.

They won't see any opposition to the war from you when you cast your ballot for Democrats arguing that they can be "tougher on terrorism".

They can't hear you counting down the minutes until Bush's term is over, and even then they won't hear your sighs of relief as a new president continues the same horrors.

They can't hear your private disgust, your whispered discontent, or your conversations filled with contempt for Bush and all he represents.

So how will they hear you?

Your sentiments do matter. But not in and of themselves. If you ACT on your sentiments, if your disgust goes from private conversations to determined protest, a whole different dynamic can begin – where people here and around the world can stop the current disastrous direction and begin to shape the future of the planet.

The sound of gunshots next door, of bombs destroying neighborhoods, and of cries at funerals is what presently fills the ears of people in Iraq. This deafening destruction is being carried out in our name by our government. We have a responsibility to make sure people in Iraq and around the world hear something different – a clear repudiation of the nightmare the Bush regime is reigning down on them and a commitment to bring it to a halt.

There is a day to get this started. October 5th: will they hear you?

STEP UP AND HELP CHANGE THE COURSE OF HISTORY -- BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE! (http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2418&_event=14)

[Red Heretic]

Wow, I'm really sorry I came so late to this discussion. I've been busy actually organizing and taking part in political actions, so I don't have time to bum around online as much as I'd like.

Anyways, I think there's seems to be alot of misconceptions about what World Can't Wait is, and also what October 5th is.

1. World Can't Wait is a broad united front which seeks to bring together all progressive ideologies and classes, and to unite them to drive out the entire Bush Regime.

2. What is meant by the phrase "the Bush Regime" is not simply Bush, or the Republicans. World Can't Wait is not a reformist movement. It is referring to the section of the bourgeoisie which is trying to transform America from a secular bourgeois democracy into a fascist theocracy.

3. Yes, World Can't Wait was started because of a call that the RCP put out. However, the truth is that very few of the WCW organizers or leaders are even RCP members. In fact, to my knowledge only 2 of the entire National Steering Committee are even associated with the RCP. People need to get over the fact that a particular political party put out a call for a movement like this, and realize that World Can't Wait is a legitimate broad, united, anti-Christian Fascist front.

4. October 5th is not supposed to directly be a revolution. From the communist point of view, however, it does serve to further repolarize society to a point in which there could be a civil war against the Christian Fascists, which of course, could lead to a revolutionary situation for the proletariat in the US.

I hope this clears up some stuff. I hope to see you all on the 5th! :D


October 5th Protest Locations (http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2418&_event=14)

[Severian]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 28 2006, 10:50 PM
2. What is meant by the phrase "the Bush Regime" is not simply Bush, or the Republicans. World Can't Wait is not a reformist movement. It is referring to the section of the bourgeoisie which is trying to transform America from a secular bourgeois democracy into a fascist theocracy.
Hm. And which section of the bourgeoisie is that, according to the RCP? Apparently the Republicans.

[afrikaNOW]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 04:11 AM
'Im down for runnin up on them *****es in they city hall'

haha great lyric, true though, im down
No, it's

I'm down for running up on them crackers in they city hall

dont sensor their lyrics.

[Pirate Utopian]

i always had that line cnesored i thought they said "niggas"

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 28 2006, 11:50 PM
World Can't Wait is a legitimate broad, united, anti-Christian Fascist front.


They're not anti-christian.

WCW National Steering Committee:

Father Luis Barrios, New York City
Mark James, Los Angeles
Rev. Deborah Elandus Lake, Chicago
Allen Lang, New York City
Prachi Noor, New York City
Debra Sweet, New York City

[afrikaNOW]

He mean't they are a front against christian fascism. not a front of antichristians against fascism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

i always had that line cnesored i thought they said "niggas"

What sense would that make? There are no/few black folks in City Hall.


Father Luis Barrios, New York City

I don't know about the rest of them, but this guy is a liberation-theologist. I know from speaking with him that he considers himself a communist. He was kicked out of one church for his political activity.

He was recently arrested, beat up, and charged with felonies for protesting in front of the UN, see: http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=...2924&Itemid=223 (http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2924&Itemid=223)

[rouchambeau]

"blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "

Moderators note: If you wish to contribute to the discussion, then please do....but this type of post only serves to collectively lower the standard of debate present in this forum and on this board. Therefore, I'm stating publicly that if you continue to make posts like this in this thread or any other thread, you will be warned. And that goes for everyone else who has considered making a totally worthless post like this.

-- AS.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Don't spam.

[Rawthentic]

Are you shitting me? There are shitloads of places that are gonna have protests! I was looking at the site and I was amazed. But who knows what it will accomplish. I support the idea, but who knows.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Severian+Sep 29 2006, 08:16 AM--> (Severian @ Sep 29 2006, 08:16 AM)
Red [email protected] 28 2006, 10:50 PM
2. What is meant by the phrase "the Bush Regime" is not simply Bush, or the Republicans. World Can't Wait is not a reformist movement. It is referring to the section of the bourgeoisie which is trying to transform America from a secular bourgeois democracy into a fascist theocracy.
Hm. And which section of the bourgeoisie is that, according to the RCP? Apparently the Republicans. [/b]
No! Not the republicans! The Christian Fascists. The Christian Fascist are not confined to any single political party (and not everyone in the republican party is a Christian Fascist).

The Christian Fascists are seeking to transform the US from a secular bourgeois democracy into a theocratic fascist country. This means that there is a fundamental contradiction inside the bourgeoisie which can ultimately lead to civil war as has happened in countries that had this contradiction in the past.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by FoB+Sep 29 2006, 09:43 PM--> (FoB @ Sep 29 2006, 09:43 PM)
Red [email protected] 28 2006, 11:50 PM
World Can't Wait is a legitimate broad, united, anti-Christian Fascist front.


They're not anti-christian.

WCW National Steering Committee:

Father Luis Barrios, New York City
Mark James, Los Angeles
Rev. Deborah Elandus Lake, Chicago
Allen Lang, New York City
Prachi Noor, New York City
Debra Sweet, New York City [/b]
I didn't say anti-Christian. I said anti Christian Fascist. There is a difference. Not all Christians are fascists, and not all Christians want the US transformed into a fascist theocracy.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 29 2006, 04:50 AM
1. World Can't Wait is a broad united front which seeks to bring together all progressive ideologies and classes, and to unite them to drive out the entire Bush Regime.

I think this point poses a couple of important questions....

1) There is, without a doubt, left-Democratic, liberal and so on presences within the WCW "movement" -- if it can be called a "movement", that is. So, are anti-Bush, anti-Iraq War liberals suddenly now "progressives"? Or, as you put it, people with "progressive ideologies"?

It would certainly be a strange turn of events if that were the case. Not just because it's usually members of the radical left that can lay claim to the label "progressive", but because these folks are, generally speaking, to the right of most social-democratic programmes....and social-democrats, the older variations at least, are really the most rightist element of the progressive camp. But you lot seem to be extending the limits further towards the right.

I mean, basically, it seems to me that in "WCW World", anyone who's an "anti Christian Fascist" (it should be a little f there, they're not a Party) is classed as a "progressive". A classification that is so broad that it compromises the majority of the political spectrum....and that means it compromises ideologies that haven't been considered "progressive" since, say, 1850.

2) You mention "all progressive ideologies and classes" -- that is, in your opinion, there are "progressive .... classes". Which is interesting, to say the least. I mean, not least is it a frank admission of class collaboration, but it's a shameless example of it too.

After all, you don't even have the humility to try and cover up your class collaboration by saying that you welcome those few progressive individuals from different classes. No, you label whole other classes "progressive". Indeed, one does wonder what classes you're referring to here? The petty-bourgeois?

[Zero]

Oh FFS! This is probably how the far right's feel about racial purity >.>

If you DON'T want to go DON'T go. If you DO want to go then GO.

I want Bush out now so children stop dieing. If you want children to stop dieing then you should ally yourself with those who have similar short term goals.

This is how things progress past the intellectual masturbatory phase.

[Red Heretic]

1) There is, without a doubt, left-Democratic, liberal and so on presences within the WCW "movement" -- if it can be called a "movement", that is. So, are anti-Bush, anti-Iraq War liberals suddenly now "progressives"? Or, as you put it, people with "progressive ideologies"?

This is a good question. Communists come to understand what classes are progressive and what classes are reactionary based upon the principle contradiction in society. For example, in many countries like China during the Chinese revolution where the principle contradiction was between the Japanese imperialism and the forces oppressed by Japanese imperialism, the Chinese national-bourgeoisie was oppressed by Japanese imperialism. For that reason, the national bourgeoisie was a progressive force for a period of time in China, and the Chinese proletariat allied with it to defeat Japanese imperialism. After that, the national-bourgeoisie became a reactionary force, and the Chinese proletariat smashed it.

In the USA, the principle contradiction today is between Christian Fascism and all of the forces that Christian Fascism seeks to oppress. That includes the proletariat, women, homosexuals, the youth, the intellectuals and scientists, the petit-bourgeoisie, and yes, even the "democratic" section of the bourgeoisie. The Christian Fascists have unleashed an entire wave of attacks on the foundations of bourgeois democracy, seeking to transform it into a fascist theocracy.



and that means it compromises ideologies that haven't been considered "progressive" since, say, 1850.

You don't think the "demoncratic" section of the bourgeoisie was progressive in Germany, Italy, Spain, and Chile? In all of the listed countries, the "democratic" section of the bourgeoisie came under attack. In Spain, the "democratic" section of the bourgeoisie joined into a coalition with the proletariat to wage civil war against fascism. In Germany, both the proletariat and the "democratic" section of the bourgeoisie were utterly crushed, and put into concentration camps. How do you want these contradictions to unfold, because they're very real!


2) You mention "all progressive ideologies and classes" -- that is, in your opinion, there are "progressive .... classes".

There are multiple revolutionary and progressive classes in different situations. In most third world countries, for example, both the proletariat and the peasantry are revolutionary classes , and at the same time the national-bourgeoisie is a progressive class against US imperialism.


Which is interesting, to say the least. I mean, not least is it a frank admission of class collaboration, but it's a shameless example of it too.

No, it is not class collaboration. Class collaboration is something that occurs between a progressive or revolutionary class and a reactionary class.


After all, you don't even have the humility to try and cover up your class collaboration by saying that you welcome those few progressive individuals from different classes. No, you label whole other classes "progressive". Indeed, one does wonder what classes you're referring to here? The petty-bourgeois?

That's because RCP is not composed of liars and revisionists. The position they adopted is based upon their firm grasp of dialectical materialism and the present contradictions in society.


On a side note, I do think it's very important to understand that this united front and effort to repolarize society is being done out of an active effort to make the contradictions in US society lead up to a revolutionary situation. This is not Dimitrovism (the narrow defending of bourgeois democracy from fascism for the sake of saving bourgeois democracy). It is a conscious effort to ultimately create a revolutionary situation in the US.

[Crash]

http://myspace-936.vo.llnwd.net/01237/63/95/1237595936_l.jpg

I am not a member of the RCP, however I am an organizer for World Can't Wait. This flyer is kind of cool, so I figured I would post it.

[Red Heretic]

OMG! Where did you guys get this flyer?! I fucking love it! Here in Houston we still have the same national flyer.

[Red Heretic]

By the way, people need to go to World Can't Wait (http://worldcantwait.org) and find the protest location (http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2418&_event=14) in their own cities.

This rally is now up to 155 cities!

[Crash]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 2 2006, 05:00 AM
OMG! Where did you guys get this flyer?! I fucking love it! Here in Houston we still have the same national flyer.
We had a guy design the little image and I took it to photoshop after he scanned it. Debra jsut sent me an e-mail saying:


Matt and friends from Atlanta:
I'm asking very firmly that you NOT use the poster put up on the
organizer's list earlier tonight. It has a drawing of images that could
be misconstrued or used to distort the intent and character of our
protests, and the aim of our movement.
Taken from our Call: "we must and will create a political situation
where the Bush regime's program is repudiated, where Bush himself is
driven from office, and where the whole direction he has been taking
society is reversed. We, in our millions, must and can take
responsibility to change the course of history."
We would not ever put something like this on our website.

Debra Sweet, National Coordinator, The World Can't Wait - Drive Out the
Bush Regime

[Red Heretic]

Yeah, I can see that. Anyway, perhaps it'd be a cooler poster for other protests of revolutionary nature later down the road.

[afrikaNOW]

'm asking very firmly that you NOT use the poster put up on the
organizer's list earlier tonight. It has a drawing of images that could
be misconstrued or used to distort the intent and character of our
protests, and the aim of our movement.
Taken from our Call: "we must and will create a political situation
where the Bush regime's program is repudiated, where Bush himself is
driven from office, and where the whole direction he has been taking
society is reversed. We, in our millions, must and can take
responsibility to change the course of history."
We would not ever put something like this on our website.

Damn shame when your revolutionary propraganda can't even be revolutionary.
And i think the poster is really effective. And people need to question their heart and sincerity in their own movement.

[Crash]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 2 2006, 05:15 AM
Yeah, I can see that. Anyway, perhaps it'd be a cooler poster for other protests of revolutionary nature later down the road.
I tried to send this to you via aim.

BTW, did Janx ever get a hold of you?

[unema-]

I'll be at the LA one!!! I'm designing my posters tonight :)

[Crash]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 05:19 AM
'm asking very firmly that you NOT use the poster put up on the
organizer's list earlier tonight. It has a drawing of images that could
be misconstrued or used to distort the intent and character of our
protests, and the aim of our movement.
Taken from our Call: "we must and will create a political situation
where the Bush regime's program is repudiated, where Bush himself is
driven from office, and where the whole direction he has been taking
society is reversed. We, in our millions, must and can take
responsibility to change the course of history."
We would not ever put something like this on our website.

Damn shame when your revolutionary propraganda can't even be revolutionary.
And i think the poster is really effective. And people need to question their heart and sincerity in their own movement.
WCW is trying to cater to everyone, even republicans.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Red Heretic+Oct 1 2006, 12:43 PM--> (Red Heretic @ Oct 1 2006, 12:43 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 08:16 AM

Red [email protected] 28 2006, 10:50 PM
2. What is meant by the phrase "the Bush Regime" is not simply Bush, or the Republicans. World Can't Wait is not a reformist movement. It is referring to the section of the bourgeoisie which is trying to transform America from a secular bourgeois democracy into a fascist theocracy.
Hm. And which section of the bourgeoisie is that, according to the RCP? Apparently the Republicans.
No! Not the republicans! The Christian Fascists. The Christian Fascist are not confined to any single political party (and not everyone in the republican party is a Christian Fascist).

The Christian Fascists are seeking to transform the US from a secular bourgeois democracy into a theocratic fascist country. This means that there is a fundamental contradiction inside the bourgeoisie which can ultimately lead to civil war as has happened in countries that had this contradiction in the past. [/b]
Which tells me nothing. Because it's not stated who the RCP considers "Christian Fascists." But few people are going to interpret that as including Democrats.

Presumably the "Bush regime" is supposed to refer to Bush among others. That's about the only thing I can be sure of, what all this "Bush regime" and "Christian Fascist" stuff is supposed to mean.

But as I pointed out earlier, the Bush administration is not in reality a fascist-like regime.

Maybe by "Christian Fascist" you mean people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell? But Bush and his "regime" are not even part of the Pat Robertson wing of the Republican Party. He's placed less emphasis on their favorite issues, like opposition to abortion and gay rights, than past Republican presidents.

Basically he just throws them some demagogy around election time, to get them to turn out and vote for him, without actually implementing much of the stuff they want.

Heck, on some gay rights stuff he's barely distinguishable from Kerry and other liberals.

“I don’t think we should deny people rights to a civil union, a legal arrangement, if that’s what a state chooses to do so,” Bush said in an interview aired Tuesday on ABC. Bush acknowledged that his position put him at odds with the Republican platform, which opposes civil unions.

“I view the definition of marriage different from legal arrangements that enable people to have rights,” said Bush, who has pressed for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. “States ought to be able to have the right to pass laws that enable people to be able to have rights like others.”

Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry backs civil unions for gay couples, too. He opposes gay marriage but also opposes the idea of a constitutional ban.
MSNBC's headline is: "Bush's gay union stance irks conservatives." (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6338458/)

Many Bush detractors claim he's a captive of the "neoconservatives". Well, the neocons are some of the least "socially conservative" people in the Republican Party; all they want is a super-hawkish foreign policy. Heck, a lot of 'em are Jewish, the last thing they want is a "Christian Fascism."

And actual fascists, like Patrick Buchanan, all oppose Bush and his war in Iraq.

So whatever "Christian Fascism" is supposed to mean - it doesn't mean fascism, and it does mean opposition to the current Republican president and his administration. Excuse me, his "regime."

[bcbm]

They want to drive out the Bush regime, but you can't use a poster showing that occuring?

Why the hell is it on a Thursday? Maybe some people can afford to take off school and work to goto some (lame, ineffective) protest but...

[Okocim]

as much as I admire your efforts comrade, it will not work.

We had 50000 marching in Manchester last weekend with the slogans "blair must go" and "troops out" - afterwards there was a tiny article on the BBC and little besides in the mainstream media, and even on the BBC original reports gave half the number of people in order to make it look insignificant. I realise how much bigger your's is going to be but imo the same will happen in the US - the media will try to hush it up, and bush, and blair, will continue their reigns of terror for as long as they can regardless of the people's wishes.

good luck with it nonetheless. :hammer:

[ahab]

nvm Im an idiot I figured it out lol

[Zero]

Way to post a 3rd topic about the all out Oct. 5th.

[redwinter]

it's a cool flyer but could be misconstrued as supporting shit that WCW is not down with, thus it has been pulled from use.

all out on october 5th -- mass historic independent political action to drive out the bush regime!!

join up with an action in your city, or list your town and start preparing for school walkouts and gatherings in your area:
www.worldcantwait.org (http://www.worldcantwait.org)

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 05:19 AM
Damn shame when your revolutionary propraganda can't even be revolutionary.
And i think the poster is really effective. And people need to question their heart and sincerity in their own movement.
Comrade, even if the Revolutionary Communist Party had a far sighted vision of creating a revolutionary situation through repolarizing society for Civil War against the Christian Fascists when it put out the call for an organization like World Can't Wait, that doesn't make World Can't Wait revolutionary.

The fact of the matter is that WCW is an anti-fascist united front, composed of millions of people from different ideologies and different class backgrounds. It serves the purpose of fighting the Bush regimes attempt to plunge society into a fascist theocracy. I'm SURE that the Revolutionary Communist Party wouldn't mind artwork of this kind for actual revolutionary activity, but World Can't Wait is not the Revolutionary Communist Party, and October 5th is not an attempt at a revolution.

[Taboo Tongue]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 11:10 PM
Matt and friends from Atlanta:
I'm asking very firmly that you NOT use the poster put up on the
organizer's list earlier tonight. It has a drawing of images that could
be misconstrued or used to distort the intent and character of our
protests, and the aim of our movement.
I know it's for the WCW and not the RCP but it seems she's saying "Fuck the R in "Revolutionary CP" we are the "Evolutionary CP" now!


We would not ever put something like this on our website.
You know, I always thought RS2k was exagerating the top-down structure of MLM groups, but I see he wasn't here with no vote among local leaders or anything, wonder if there the national leaders even voted.
You guys do finally have a city in the state where I live, wich makes it very tempting especially in this paticular action to actually go forth with this. But between my Berkley trip, and this top down structure (poster was one of the coolest shits I've seen, maybe we can ue it in the "Working Together (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54059&view=findpost&p=1292158855)" thread.
Maybe I will check into ditching, but probably not.
Janx is pretty elite though, talked to the guy\girl over Email for awhile (and made the Altanta RCYB's sites old nav bar).

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Taboo [email protected] 3 2006, 03:15 AM



We would not ever put something like this on our website.
You know, I always thought RS2k was exagerating the top-down structure of MLM groups, but I see he wasn't here with no vote among local leaders or anything, wonder if there the national leaders even voted.
You guys do finally have a city in the state where I live, wich makes it very tempting especially in this paticular action to actually go forth with this. But between my Berkley trip, and this top down structure (poster was one of the coolest shits I've seen, maybe we can ue it in the "Working Together (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54059&view=findpost&p=1292158855)" thread.
Maybe I will check into ditching, but probably not.
Janx is pretty elite though, talked to the guy\girl over Email for awhile (and made the Altanta RCYB's sites old nav bar).

I know it's for the WCW and not the RCP but it seems she's saying "Fuck the R in "Revolutionary CP" we are the "Evolutionary CP" now!

WHAT?! Did you even read what I said? Repeat after me:

World Can't Wait is not the Revolutionary Communist Party.
World Can't Wait is not the Revolutionary Communist Party.
World Can't Wait is not the Revolutionary Communist Party.

Debera Sweet was speaking on behalf of World Can't Wait. World Can't Wait is not trying to stage a revolution.

Like I said, this poster would be better used for actual revolutionary insurrection, which isn't October 5th.


You know, I always thought RS2k was exagerating the top-down structure of MLM groups, but I see he wasn't here with no vote among local leaders or anything, wonder if there the national leaders even voted.

Oh, give me a break. What Debra said was just the implementation of the outlook which World Can't Wait's membership agreed upon at it's founding. Yes, the RCP does believe that creating a united front like WCW will ultimately lead to a revolutionary situation, but World Can't Wait in itself is not directly trying to create a revolutionary situation.

[Zero]

At this stage of the game a "revolution" would be a coup. Not a revolution.

[afrikaNOW]

This movement is about driving out the bush regime and preventing the establishment of a christina fascist state, not a socialist revolution.

I just think that more action than protests is gonna have to be done to drive out the bush regime and or prevent the rising of christian fascism in america.

But again, i overstand the WCW position, im just stating my beliefs.

[BBBG-unlogged]

we must and will create a political situation
where the Bush regime's program is repudiated, where Bush himself is
driven from office, and where the whole direction he has been taking
society is reversed.

Yes, this is not at all a call for revolution. :rolleyes:

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

it's a cool flyer but could be misconstrued as supporting shit that WCW is not down with

Like overthrowing the bourgeoisie and their representatives in government.

So what is "WCW" down with at this point? I know several people who were at talks by Sunsara and Deborah bringing up a possible campaign to oust Bush and stop the rise of Christian fascism (and this eventually became the WCW campaign). I know the things they were talking about then are alot different from what the campaign has turned into now.

The WCW leadership hasn't even answered the key question, which is "Once Bush is out, then what?" The legal answer is that Cheney would take over. And of course, the Dems involved in the WCW wouldn't settle for anything but a legal succession. Is Cheney as president going to change anything?

[Janus]

Merged.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

This WCW thing looks interesting, maybe I'll go. I'm always interested in ways to show our disapproval of the Bush regime and the Bush presidency through peaceful means. Ill check out the site.

[Red Heretic]

Like overthrowing the bourgeoisie and their representatives in government.

How many times do I have to fucking say it?! WORLD CAN'T WAIT IS NOT THE REVOLUTIONARY COMMUNIST PARTY! This is the fourth time I have gone over this.

Would Can't Wait is a united front against Christian Fascism. It has nothing to do with overthrowing the bourgeoisie, that's what the Revolutionary Communist Party is for.


So what is "WCW" down with at this point?

Creating a united front against Christian Fascism, and driving out the Bush Regime.


The WCW leadership hasn't even answered the key question, which is "Once Bush is out, then what?"

Then World Can't Wait will continue to wage struggle against Christian Fascism, repolarizing society, and driving out the entire Bush Regime.

From the perspective of the Revolutionary Communist Party, this serves to repolarize society further toward a civil war between Christian Fascism and all forces that oppressed by Christian Fascism (which could ultimately lead to a revolutionary situation). Again though, the Revolutionary Communist Party is NOT THE SAME as World Can't Wait!!


The legal answer is that Cheney would take over. And of course, the Dems involved in the WCW wouldn't settle for anything but a legal succession. Is Cheney as president going to change anything?

This is a total distortion of World Can't Wait. World Can't wait is not trying to drive out just Bush, but the ENTIRE BUSH REGIME.

[Red Heretic]

By the way, October 5th has now spread to 175 cities!

[ahab]

I hope there is a good presence in Salt Lake cuz i dont think theres to many leftists here but im excited to meet some

[YSR]

Maybe I'll go. I'll see if I can get some anarchists around here together. At the very least, we can have a little fun at the liberals' expense.

I think it's interesting that AS's criticism has gone mostly unanswered:


Originally posted by AS
You mention "all progressive ideologies and classes" -- that is, in your opinion, there are "progressive .... classes". Which is interesting, to say the least. I mean, not least is it a frank admission of class collaboration, but it's a shameless example of it too.

I know, I know, WCW isn't the RCP. Then that forces the question: why are you supporting them? Do you see them as progressive? I'll be honest, I don't see how it could possibly be so. People tied together through political organization as opposed to economic or social means. That flies in the face of everything Marx and the anarchists ever said.

[redwinter]

over 210 cities now at the latest count...probably a few more will pop up today.

i was amazed looking at the list - 5 protests in ontario! 4 protests in alabama, 11 in florida, 13 in north carolina, 2 in south carolina, 4 in tennessee, 2 in south dakota, even shit going on in utah, kansas, kentucky - places you'd never think of in relation to on the streets politics...this radical message is really reverberating all over the country!

i really encourage anyone that isn't already planning on going to a local action to join up, and if there isn't one in your area to announce one. i'm especially looking forward to walkouts at hundreds of schools and colleges across the country. if you haven't started organizing yet: it ain't too late - the world can't wait!

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Young Stupid Radical+Oct 4 2006, 04:57 AM--> (Young Stupid Radical @ Oct 4 2006, 04:57 AM) Maybe I'll go. I'll see if I can get some anarchists around here together. At the very least, we can have a little fun at the liberals' expense.[/b]

That'd be awesome man. It's really important that people from all outlooks, including those with an anarchist outlook, come be a part of this from their point of view. Seriously, all of us have to make tomorrow a turning point in history.


I think it's interesting that AS's criticism has gone mostly unanswered:


AS
You mention "all progressive ideologies and classes" -- that is, in your opinion, there are "progressive .... classes". Which is interesting, to say the least. I mean, not least is it a frank admission of class collaboration, but it's a shameless example of it too.

I know, I know, WCW isn't the RCP. Then that forces the question: why are you supporting them? Do you see them as progressive? I'll be honest, I don't see how it could possibly be so. People tied together through political organization as opposed to economic or social means. That flies in the face of everything Marx and the anarchists ever said.

That's totally not true that I didn't answer that criticism. I went in depth and thoroughly analyzed this question (and it's a really important question!). Please read my response to this post here: Here (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=56817&view=findpost&p=1292178817)

[bolshevik butcher]

I wish the comrades well tommorow and hope that this effort helps to build awarness and class consciousness. I don't know much about the WCW but I trust sovietpants to work well and in places where he thinks he has the potential to spread marxism, I would like to know what the people criticising this have been up to in the way of political activity recently.

[Ultra-Violence]

Today im going to the demonstration commrades ill let u know how its goes down!

NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR! :hammer:

[Marukusu]

Great. If I lived in the USA, I would surely be doing something radical today.

Remember to share all the nasty details later, comrades!

[ahab]

it was a good demo, only like 40 or 50 people shoed up to salt lake but we were all over the innersection and got lots of noteriaty, I was actually surprised at how little oppositon we received since utah is a dominate republican state. It was good though

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

According to reports less people showed up for this in New York than did for the Independence for Puerto Rico rally a short time ago. And that's with the WCW campaign spending all that money to run full page ads in the New York Times!

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 6 2006, 12:59 AM
According to reports less people showed up for this in New York than did for the Independence for Puerto Rico rally a short time ago. And that's with the WCW campaign spending all that money to run full page ads in the New York Times!
That's a totally unfair analogy. Did those people who went to the independence for Puerto Rico rally walk out of school and work, and refuse to shop on that day?

You can't compare a nationwide rally that is taking place in the middle of the work week and trying to have an actual substantial economic impact on this regime to some a rally like the one you mentioned which probably occured on a weekend, and wasn't as heavy or controversial.

[Red Heretic]

Anyway, the Houston rally was really good, but the turn out wasn't nearly as good as places like LA, San Fransisco, Chicago, etc. That's to be expected though, since Houston is in an area where there is such a concentration of total reactionaries.

I have some photos I took, but they're all really blurry and hastey though, and I never got a good picture of the whole builk of the protest... It's hard to take pictures while your carrying lots materials at the same time the whole rally.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

That's a totally unfair analogy. Did those people who went to the independence for Puerto Rico rally walk out of school and work, and refuse to shop on that day?

It's not "totally unfair". I didn't say the protests were similar. I said the turn out was small in NYC, and that an earlier protest for PR independence was larger. My analogy was that the WCW cats spend big money to run a full page ad in the New York Times and only broughout out that small crowd, while the PR protest wasn't nearly as publicized and was much larger.


You can't compare a nationwide rally that is taking place in the middle of the work week and trying to have an actual substantial economic impact on this regime to some a rally like the one you mentioned which probably occured on a weekend, and wasn't as heavy or controversial.

Over 1,000 people marching on the UN, chanting "Armed struggle is the path to liberation" and demanding independence for the oppressed colony of Puerto Rico isn't as "heavy or controversial" of the Democrat infested WCW?

[An archist]

so, is there any news on this event, reports, pictures, anything?

[afrikaNOW]

is the bush regime out yet?

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 01:35 PM
is the bush regime out yet?
Yeah dude! They like totally stepped down when they saw all these college kids waving these green posters!

[bolshevik butcher]

So were you organising or agitating for anarchism within the protests?

[afrikaNOW]

Where are the WCW supporters at?

[redwinter]

all the WCW supporters are busy actually organizing and doing political work...sorry y'all. don't got time right now to write a response that does this justice, but this was a great beginning...let's keep the momentum growing and really build this movement! i'll be sure to write somethin up to put all the haters to shame.

good to see all y'all out there, for those who went. one thing i noticed from the reports that have been sent into the WCW site is that these protests were more evenly developed than most i've heard about, that is, the protests in NYC, LA and SF were only a few times bigger than the protests in, say, Albuquerque, Denver, or Sarasota (which each had a few hundred, along with plenty of other cities without much of an "activist scene"). very exciting shit!

this thursday thru sunday - nationwide political meetings for the world can't wait - drive out the bush regime! go to www.worldcantwait.org (http://www.worldcantwait.org) for your city or start your own!

[Ultra-Violence]

Srry Took a while to resppond always with my girlfreind :o

The demonstration in L.A was ok...........
ehh not really exiting not much happend really....

BUT

Since my dumbass Anarchist friends left cuase they were *****ing about how WcW is RCP and all this bull shit Me and my girlfreind marched with veterans for peace and stuff and we started chanting about how capitilism has to go and stuff and the old dudes were like "YEAH MAN THATS RIGHT " "I LIKE WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING' etc.... So he started chanting with us and pretty soon all of veterans for peace was chanting about capitilism and imperailsm etc... so that was pretty much the climax the rest was just "another protest"

:hammer:

[AlwaysAnarchy]

I went to the protests and it was um pretty good. I drove an hour from the suburbs to get to Detroit Michigan where the big rally was being held. So yea I definitely made the effort to get there and took the day off from school.

The turnout was all right and we heard from several speakers. The crowd was very diverse adn that was cool. We had John Conyers show up and we were warned about a possible October or Novemeber surprise from teh Bush adminstration and how best to prepare against it should it happen.

The movement is about removing Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld from office but not only that - the entire right wing political establishment with him!