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AlwaysAnarchy
29th September 2006, 03:44
Hi again. I was wondering what people here and the progressive Left in general thought about Vegetarianism and animal rights? You see I am a Vegan and believe that it is crucial for us to promote the cause of animal rights and protecting those that need protection (often from giant corporations and the peasantry) - innocent, defenseless animals.

I think PETA is a very worthwhile organization on this topic if you guys wanna check it out. I will not go so far as to say that eating an animal is murder, but I will say that it is not being respectful, humane, compassionate. It is also disgusting in my opinion. But whether or not you eat animals, I would hope that everyone here agrees that we need to better protect the living creatures among us. Thanks.

Raúl Duke
29th September 2006, 04:07
I was wondering what people here and the progressive Left in general thought about Vegetarianism and animal rights?

In my opinion, the thoughts about vegetarianism and animal rights are very varied in revleft.
I personaly, eat meat, but I don't mind if there are others who decide to become vegetarian or vegan. That is their decision and I respect that.

In a way, since I eat meat, I believe animals shouldn't be treated cruelly, especially those that are made into food, because I think the food industry is notorious for its treatment of livestock (I think PETA agrees with the notoriously cruel conditions of livestock). So if the animal must be killed for "consumption" (sound very cold...but don't know what other word to use) I hope they do it quickly and as painless as possible.

Also, other animal by-products like fur, leather, skins, are sometimes (not always though, in my opinion. i.e. shoes are made from leather, I see nothin wrong, but when someone uses fur of an almost extinct animal, thats really wasteful, since their are other furs and even other non-animal materials) made for very useless and vain luxury goods.

So in a way I agree with you that animals should be treated with some respect and in a humane matter

Raj Radical
29th September 2006, 04:26
Vegetarianism is good, but Vegan is a little extreme IMO.

You can find animal products in almost everything, Vegans try to avoid all of that and end up becoming very malnurished and sickly at least from my experience from knowing vegans.

Comrade Marcel
29th September 2006, 04:31
I just KNEW this was going to come from you sooner or later.

Please, just get out of here!

You are like the complete white privlege hippy who will sell out to liberalism anyways. We should get your picture for the definition on wikipedia.

Plus, please do a search next time. This crappy issue has been discussed to death on here already. In short: It's a persynal choice, and usually a petty-bourgeois one.

But in the meantime, read MIM's resolution on the question because it's the best position on the issue IMO:

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/cong/vegan.html

Now, I'm going to go eat some meat.

Comrade Marcel
29th September 2006, 04:33
...and one more thing: FUCK PETA! They are a petty-bourgeois celeberty glorifying organization that compares animal farming with the Holocaust and promotes cultural and national antogonizations (for example by berating Chinese for eating dogs).

Raj Radical
29th September 2006, 04:34
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 29 2006, 01:32 AM
I just KNEW this was going to come from you sooner or later.

Please, just get out of here!

You are like the complete white privlege hippy who will sell out to liberalism anyways. We should get your picture for the definition on wikipedia.

Plus, please do a search next time. This crappy issue has been discussed to death on here already. In short: It's a persynal choice, and usually a petty-bourgeois one.

But in the meantime, read MIM's resolution on the question because it's the best position on the issue IMO:

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/cong/vegan.html

Now, I'm going to go eat some meat.
That was a tee-bit hostile.

Demogorgon
29th September 2006, 04:40
I eat meat personally. I know I shouldn't really, but I am a man of many faults and I'd rather my faults concerned eating meat than selling out people. That being said things like factory farming appall me.

I think given humans are naturally omniverous it is ok to eat meat for the most part (We're not going to tell lions they can't eat meat are we ;) ). Though like I say treating animals cruelly before killing them should really not be tolerated.

I have complete respect for people who don't eat meat though. Personal choice and all.

Cooler Reds Will Prevail
29th September 2006, 08:23
I would agree, vegetarianism is a personal choice, one which I do not adopt. Humans are naturally omnivorous, so obviously meat shouldn't be our entire diet, but there is nothing wrong with eating it in general. Animal abuse, in agreement with the rest, is appalling however (e.g. skinning animals alive for fur).

I completely respect people who choose vegetarianism or veganism, it's just not a feasible option for me personally.

SmithSmith
30th September 2006, 19:42
Animals are not meant to be eaten just like human babies are not meant to be eaten. There are no rational reasons to eat animals but the taste of flesh.

bloody_capitalist_sham
30th September 2006, 19:49
haha. I love Comrade Marcel these days.

I think vegetarianism is personal choice.

The only good argument ive heard for it is that meat production is much more wasteful than fruit and vegetable production.

Rodack
30th September 2006, 20:14
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 12:45 AM
Hi again. I was wondering what people here and the progressive Left in general thought about Vegetarianism and animal rights? You see I am a Vegan and believe that it is crucial for us to promote the cause of animal rights and protecting those that need protection (often from giant corporations and the peasantry) - innocent, defenseless animals.

I think PETA is a very worthwhile organization on this topic if you guys wanna check it out. I will not go so far as to say that eating an animal is murder, but I will say that it is not being respectful, humane, compassionate. It is also disgusting in my opinion. But whether or not you eat animals, I would hope that everyone here agrees that we need to better protect the living creatures among us. Thanks.
Didn't you say that you are Pro-Abortion and was Hitler a vegiterian, Comrade?

Rodack
30th September 2006, 20:19
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 29 2006, 01:34 AM
...and one more thing: FUCK PETA! They are a petty-bourgeois celeberty glorifying organization that compares animal farming with the Holocaust and promotes cultural and national antogonizations (for example by berating Chinese for eating dogs).
Many cultures eat Dog, what about the French, Comrade?

violencia.Proletariat
30th September 2006, 20:25
Animal rights is not an issue that concerns the left. It is completely irrelevant to the working class taking over the means of production.

Rodack
30th September 2006, 20:28
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 05:26 PM
Animal rights is not an issue that concerns the left. It is completely irrelevant to the working class taking over the means of production.
This is the learning section of this BB. I was only asking about the French and their cultural need to feast on dog meat, Comrade

Jazzratt
30th September 2006, 20:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 12:45 AM
Hi again. I was wondering what people here and the progressive Left in general thought about Vegetarianism and animal rights?
'The left' is divided on this subject, personally I think Vegatarianism and Veganism are fine for people to do behind clsed doors without harming anyone, but I will enjoy my ominvourous diet thanks. As for 'animal rights' it's a stupid idea, unless the animals being used in vivesection are being used inefficiantly it doesn't matter wether or not they're harmed.


You see I am a Vegan and believe that it is crucial for us to promote the cause of animal rights and protecting those that need protection (often from giant corporations and the peasantry) - innocent, defenseless animals. That's an inefficiant use of your time mate, you should be focussing on the struggle of the working class.


I think PETA is a very worthwhile organization on this topic if you guys wanna check it out. I will not go so far as to say that eating an animal is murder, but I will say that it is not being respectful, humane, compassionate. It is also disgusting in my opinion. But whether or not you eat animals, I would hope that everyone here agrees that we need to better protect the living creatures among us. Thanks. I fucking LOATHE PETA, they are petit-bourgeoise, reactionary fuckwits. I wouldn't say that meat is murder either, and I don't think you need to be respectful, humane or compassionate to a creature that does not understand respect, is not human and will not reciprocate on the compassion. I don't agree with you, I think you should spend a lot of time in this subforum - you've got a lot to learn, mate.

Rodack
30th September 2006, 21:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 01:41 AM
I eat meat personally. I know I shouldn't really, but I am a man of many faults and I'd rather my faults concerned eating meat than selling out people. That being said things like factory farming appall me.

I think given humans are naturally omniverous it is ok to eat meat for the most part (We're not going to tell lions they can't eat meat are we ;) ). Though like I say treating animals cruelly before killing them should really not be tolerated.

I have complete respect for people who don't eat meat though. Personal choice and all.
I had sweet and sour chicken with rice and a glass of red wine, last night for dinner, comrades

Pirate Utopian
30th September 2006, 21:44
i have a dog, take excellent care of it, but im no veggie or vegan, it's a personal choice like Immortal Technique said on Beef & Broccoli we shouldnt take it as a revolutionary action but a dietary choice.

cenv
30th September 2006, 22:19
I'm a vegetarian, but primarily because I've been raised in a vegetarian household. Although I do believe we have the responsibility to kill animals in efficient manners that do not inflict significant pain upon them, I think the best argument for vegetarianism is that the production of meat takes a huge toll on resources and the environment. I'm going to stay off the issue of animal rights, because I really don't know how it feels to be a cow.

AlwaysAnarchy
30th September 2006, 22:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 04:43 PM
Animals are not meant to be eaten just like human babies are not meant to be eaten. There are no rational reasons to eat animals but the taste of flesh.
:D Thank you!

AlwaysAnarchy
30th September 2006, 22:38
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 29 2006, 01:32 AM
I just KNEW this was going to come from you sooner or later.

Please, just get out of here!

You are like the complete white privlege hippy who will sell out to liberalism anyways. We should get your picture for the definition on wikipedia.

Plus, please do a search next time. This crappy issue has been discussed to death on here already. In short: It's a persynal choice, and usually a petty-bourgeois one.

But in the meantime, read MIM's resolution on the question because it's the best position on the issue IMO:

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/cong/vegan.html

Now, I'm going to go eat some meat.
Ah, how do you know what color skin I have? Are that ignorant that everyone who has a computer is white? Or even everyone who is privileged is white? :rolleyes:

And calling me a privileged person is ironic; you have a PC, internet and you have the time to spend on an internet forum posting messages, don't ya think that YOU are privileged as well?

Btw, I have read MIM's "resolution and here is what they had to say:



2. The state will fund education on why vegan diets are scientifically superior for health.

So why are you mocking this issue and mocking me, calling me a "white hippy person" etc when your own organization whose statement who endorsed calls for EDUCATING people on why they should be a vegan!

And I don't care who kills dogs, Chinese or white or African, I believe that's wrong and backward. Dogs have traditionally been one of mankind's few friends in the animal kingdom, we should respect that.

rouchambeau
30th September 2006, 23:31
"The Left" is not a singular unit.

Wanted Man
30th September 2006, 23:34
I have no idea what "the left" things(as rouchambeau pointed out, we're hardly a monolithic organization that issues official) statements on all kinds of subjects, but I know that I, for one, fucking love meat.

Rodack
30th September 2006, 23:42
I had a taco salad for lunch that has Premium ground chuck, very tasty indeed, comrades

Marukusu
30th September 2006, 23:50
Animals are not meant to be eaten just like human babies are not meant to be eaten.

"Meant to be?" Please, let's be material...

I love meat, especially pork. A lot of proteines in it, too.
Fuck, I don't think I would survive in a society without meat.

Jazzratt
1st October 2006, 00:13
Hey PA, do want to respond to my post mate?

Cheers :D

Comrade Marcel
1st October 2006, 00:39
Originally posted by Rodack+Sep 30 2006, 05:20 PM--> (Rodack @ Sep 30 2006, 05:20 PM)
Comrade [email protected] 29 2006, 01:34 AM
...and one more thing: FUCK PETA! They are a petty-bourgeois celeberty glorifying organization that compares animal farming with the Holocaust and promotes cultural and national antogonizations (for example by berating Chinese for eating dogs).
Many cultures eat Dog, what about the French, Comrade? [/b]
I wasn't targeting anyone. If you read what I wrote, I was giving an example of the kind of shit PETA does.

And the French eat all kinds of stuff that I wouldn't: throats, brains, eyeballs... Big deal.

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
1st October 2006, 00:52
Vegetarianism is an ethical stance people should take. Whether thatn stance is neccessary for the leftist movement to be successful is a different question. Although creating an animal-human hierarchy could lead to the justification of inhumane treatment towards other humans (ie. they are savage animals), I don't think this would occur.

Jazzratt
1st October 2006, 01:09
Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 30 2006, 09:53 PM
Vegetarianism is an ethical stance people should take. Whether thatn stance is neccessary for the leftist movement to be successful is a different question. Although creating an animal-human hierarchy could lead to the justification of inhumane treatment towards other humans (ie. they are savage animals), I don't think this would occur.
Could you explain why vegatarianism and leftism have anything to do with each other?

Zero
1st October 2006, 02:03
"The Left" is not a singular unit.

QFT.

Comrade Marcel
1st October 2006, 02:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 07:39 PM
Ah, how do you know what color skin I have?
I don't know actually; never claimed to. Go back and read exactly what I wrote.

Also, one doesn't have to be white to enjoy "white privilege".


Are that ignorant that everyone who has a computer is white?

I didn't suggest anything like that, so I'm not sure where this is coming from.


Or even everyone who is privileged is white? :rolleyes:

This is a no-brainer.


And calling me a privileged person is ironic; you have a PC, internet and you have the time to spend on an internet forum posting messages, don't ya think that YOU are privileged as well?

Privilege isn't necessarily a problem. But one way is when it blinds the persyn's consciousness. If the persyn is a class traitor, they are cool. There have been very conscious people who come from privileged backgrounds, such as Marx, Engels, Lenin, Angela Davis; and to some extent Trotsky and Chomsky are examples as well.

I support a family of 4 kids and am paying back a stupid student loan. I'm willing to bet I have less privilege then quite a few on here. In the sense of being white and living in an imperialist country, yes I am very privileged. However, my conciousness is definately somewhere else, and I am definately a traitor to Kanadianism.

Internet isn't very exspensive these days, and computers are practically given away for free. Fuck, you can get on the internet with a Pentium 1. People sell Pentium IIIs for like $15 Kanadian, so your example is quite shitty.

Also, it's funny but rightist I argue with are always suggesting I post from a library, etc.


Btw, I have read MIM's "resolution and here is what they had to say:



2. The state will fund education on why vegan diets are scientifically superior for health.

So why are you mocking this issue and mocking me, calling me a "white hippy person" etc when your own organization whose statement who endorsed calls for EDUCATING people on why they should be a vegan!

1.) I never argued whether or not vegetarianism or veganism is or isn't a superior diet. I have my own persynal opinion on the matter and don't necesarily agree with MIM that it is "superior" to health than a diet of quality meat in healthy portions mixed with a well-balanced diet.

2.) MIM is not my organization. I'm not with MIM and I don't necessarily even consider myself a supporter. I agree with their position on the question of labour aristocracy/imperialist country workers, and some of their other positions, so in that sense I have some solidarity with MIM.

3.) MIM is making it clear that veganism/vegetarianism and animal rights is not a central issue, but rather a side issue to proletarian revolution and liberation. I got the impression that you think this is a really important issue that should be addressed right now. Next maybe you are going to tell us your a buddhist too... When and if you do, if you still don't know why I called you a "white privelige hippy" at that time, you never will.


And I don't care who kills dogs, Chinese or white or African, I believe that's wrong and backward.

That right there is a fine example of your white chauvinism. Who cares what you believe, if Chinese people want to raise Dogs and eat 'em they have a right to. I'm sure their culture is older than yours and they have a right to practice something they have been doing for centuries if they want.

Also, my comrade went to China to teach English and told me dog is deeeee lish! :lol:


Dogs have traditionally been one of mankind's few friends in the animal kingdom, we should respect that.

This is unscientific and stupid. Domesticated pets have nothing to do with the "animal kingdom". Try making friends with a pack of wild dogs or wolves and tell us how it goes.

This reminds me actually, it was either animal rights or Buddhists or both, who criticized the revolution in China and Mao for killing packs of wild dogs in the Tibet region. These dogs, of course, were infected with rabies, disease spreading ticks and would attack people and children... But of course the logic of these PETA types is that animals are more important than people's livelyhoods, and for the Buddhists all life is suffering anyhow... :rolleyes:

LSD
1st October 2006, 05:15
Hi again. I was wondering what people here and the progressive Left in general thought about Vegetarianism and animal rights?

Vegetarianism is a personal choice and in my mind isn't a political issue at all.

Insofar as "animal rights", I reject that there is such a thing. The "animal rights" movement, however, is obviously very much real, but I don't see it as having much to do with the progressive left.

Obviously there are problems with the meat industry as it presently exists, there are problem with most industries[/b] as they presently exist; but equating meat with "murder" or any other PETA-esque hyperbole on the subject is clearly ludicrous.

Murder refers to a human societal crime in which one member of society unjustifiable ends the life of another. Killing a plant cannot be "murder" and neither can killing a non-human animal.

This is all so fundamentally obvious that I don't even know what to say in defense of it. At this point I usually wait for the proponent to offer their "arguments" and then procede to cut them down.

In case you haven't figured it out, this issue has been addressed a lot, I'd recommend looking through some of the old threads 'cause otherwise, I'm sure a lot of stuffs gonna be repeated.

ELF-ALF (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=36532)
PETA (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=38285)
veganism (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=39814)
Words cannot express my feelings about this (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=44463)
Vivisection (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=46178)
vivisection (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=48125)
practical vegetarianism (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49249)


Originally posted by me

To say that animal rights activists are reactionary is the silliest thing ever.

Animal rights activists as a group are not intrinsically reactionary. Clearly there is a lot of nescessary work to be done in the field of animal treatment.

TAL advocates (Total Animal Liberation), however, are reactionary because their ideology is fundamentally anti-humanist, regressive, primitavist, and supertstitious.

Look, no one here supports needless animal cruelty. No one wants to go around beating dogs and strangling cats. But animals are not human and we cannot treat them as such. We are omnivores, we eat animals. That's about as natural an act as there is. Preventing people from eating meat is an act of oppression. It reduces freedom of action for nebulous reasons in support of a nebulous goal.

The animal fanatics want to give animals the rights of people with none of the responsibilities. I suppose that means that we should all financially support them so that they don't starve! I can't imagine what they forsee animals giving back to society however...

The simple truth is that animals are not sentient and as such unable to be a part of our society. They are inferior to us and pretending that that isn't true doesn't change it. The simple truth is that we are superior to mice!

Animals are not a part of human society and so do not enjoy the rights given by that society. The very idea of rights is a human invention and applies only to humans. Society must protect rights because it is in the best interest of that society that it do so, that's it.

There is no "higher being" enforcing rights, they are as much a societal creation as anything. Sosicety exists to bennefit the members of said society, therefore it is the obligation of society to afford all liberties and basic rights to members of society so long as said liberties to not infringe on the same rights and liberties of other member of society.

Human society has no obligation to those species which are intrinsically biologically incapable of participating in such society.

Our human obligations are such because that is the nature of our relationship. Our relationship with other animals is in the context of their relationhip with themselves and with other animals. Animals eat animals! Therefore, from a philosophical sense, the eating of meat is within their moral framework. The primary relationship in nature between animal and animal, mammal and mammal is that of hunter and prey, therefore, in terms of our natural responsibility, we are merely participating in preexisting supersocial acts.

That's philosophy, now here's reason: Rights are a societal creation. We are only obligated to provide rights for those who are part of human society. We have no obligation, nor logical reason, to provide rights for those who are not only not a part of said society, but of a species which is fundamentally incapable of even convieving of rights.

Specially incapable. There may be members of human society (infants, the infirmed) who are not capable of concieving of much, but the capacity and the excersizing of said capacity are two seperate things. Humans are genetically capable of concieving of complex abstract ideas, other animals are not.

It is that fucking simple.