So there's a name for it!

[liberated_desire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegalism

This has been my de facto philosophy for a while.

[apathy maybe]

Interesting. However, I have to say that doing illegal things simply because they are illegal is just silly.

What I would recommend is taking no notice of the law (except where the consequences would be too great otherwise), and live how you wish. This may include breaking laws, or it might not, who cares?

I will reply more after others do :)

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 05:16 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegalism

This has been my de facto philosophy for a while.
It's nothing more than a politicised lifestyle choice in my eyes. Breaking the law for the sake of breaking the law, and tenuously linking it to class struggle is not atall revolutionary.

This idea of "if it's illegal it'll help bring down capitalism" bullshit, is in my eyes one of the things that has put Anarchism in the ideological gutter. Like bolshevism, I would gladly disacociate with it.

[Raúl Duke]

Even so it sound intersting I agree with Love Underground and apathy maybe
because it does sound kinda silly (breaking laws for the sake of breaking them, sound rediculous to me)

Its also isn't revolutionary and it doesn't help any class struggle, its more like a lifestylist choice and its logic is similar to that of dumpster diving ("doing all sorts of ilegal things that won't help the strugle will bring down capitalism anyway" = "not participating in capitalist economy will bring capitalism down" in my opinion)


his idea of "if it's illegal it'll help bring down capitalism" bullshit, is in my eyes one of the things that has put Anarchism in the ideological gutter.... I would gladly disacociate with it.
I agree with LU that "illegalism" probably put Anarchism in the ideological gutter

[Everyday Anarchy]

Its also isn't revolutionary and it doesn't help any class struggle, its more like a lifestylist choice and its logic is similar to that of dumpster diving ("doing all sorts of ilegal things that won't help the strugle will bring down capitalism anyway" = "not participating in capitalist economy will bring capitalism down" in my opinion)I hate hearing all these anti-lifestylist arguments. Sure, removing yourself from the capitalist economy won't bring it down... but neither will participating in it. Dumpster diving won't smash the state, but ordering in restaurants won't either.

However, when you and the lifestylist are both lying on your death beds, who carries more blame for the horrors of capitalism? You. I think you'd be the one with more regrets.

[Janus]

Ok...

anything you would like to discuss about it?

[Raj Radical]

Empower the working class, not the criminal class.

[Raúl Duke]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 04:09 PM

Its also isn't revolutionary and it doesn't help any class struggle, its more like a lifestylist choice and its logic is similar to that of dumpster diving ("doing all sorts of ilegal things that won't help the strugle will bring down capitalism anyway" = "not participating in capitalist economy will bring capitalism down" in my opinion)I hate hearing all these anti-lifestylist arguments. Sure, removing yourself from the capitalist economy won't bring it down... but neither will participating in it. Dumpster diving won't smash the state, but ordering in restaurants won't either.

However, when you and the lifestylist are both lying on your death beds, who carries more blame for the horrors of capitalism? You. I think you'd be the one with more regrets.
I didn't mean to offend directly lifestylists, I mean yeah so my argument is kinda anti-lifestyle but what I wanted to cirticize directly was illegalism.

In my opinion, not participating with capitalism is more effective than doing illegal things for the sake of it being illegal thinking that would bring capitalism down.

I only made a comparison because I don't think the people are just going to stop participating (not true participation, since we don't have any in this economy, but I mean in the buying-selling term of the word ) in masse just like I don't think people are going to do illegal things just for the sake of doing illegal things in masse. (people won't join this stuff in masse)

Also, doing lifestylist stuff makes you live by cheaper and independent, which I think is good.

I respect people's decision in life, I'm only saying it just won't spread the revolution.

But about the death bed thing, why would I have regrets over dumpster diving or not, when I'm dying, I think that be the last thing on my mind. :wacko:

[Everyday Anarchy]

Originally posted by Raj Radical[email protected] 28 2006, 06:03 PM
Empower the working class, not the criminal class.
Are you implying that workers are somehow superior to criminals?
As a matter of fact, by labelling certain people as "criminals" you're legitimizing the legal system and the state.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Raj [email protected] 28 2006, 07:03 PM
Empower the working class, not the criminal class.
Criminals tend to be ex-workers who were fed up with the notion of work.

[Raj Radical]

When I refer to criminals, Im talking about selfish lazy thugs who cheat, lie and steal there way through life., not anyone who has ever been charged with a crime.

..and yes, I do consider honest working people vastly superior to said criminals.

[dannie]

Originally posted by Raj [email protected] 29 2006, 05:23 AM

..and yes, I do consider honest working people vastly superior to said criminals.
I hope you just expressed yourself wrong, because that's something really un-leftist to say.

ever heard of equality?

[midnight marauder]

Im talking about selfish lazy thugs who cheat, lie and steal there way through life., not anyone who has ever been charged with a crime.

Who are these people?

Do they exist?

If they do, they clearly are not the same people, nor follow the same principle as is suggested by illegalism.

There are very clear material reason for becomming a criminal. People, with few exceptions, don't choose to become a criminal because they like to lie, or cheat, or steal, or harm others. Criminality is the result of explotiation, hoplessness, corruption; capitalism. It may not be a "moral" or "ethical" response to wage slavery, but it might just be a justified one.

I suggest that we do not reject this "class" automatically. Criminals, if they can be called a class, need our attention and help as much as anyone else.

[bcbm]

Illegalism certainly has a romantic appeal, but in practice it shortens your life-span to about... 2 months, unless you get caught, in which case you get to enjoy life in prison. No parole. The Bonnot Gang pretty much did it in right before the first World War and now it is just aped by "lifestylists" who are too scared to really go for it.

But hey, if you want to live life in complete opposition to the state and go out burning bright, have at it.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by Love Underground+--> (Love Underground)It's nothing more than a politicised lifestyle choice in my eyes. Breaking the law for the sake of breaking the law, and tenuously linking it to class struggle is not atall revolutionary.[/b]Indeed ...


JohnnyDarko
Its also isn't revolutionary and it doesn't help any class struggle, its more like a lifestylist choice and its logic is similar to that of dumpster diving ("doing all sorts of ilegal things that won't help the strugle will bring down capitalism anyway" = "not participating in capitalist economy will bring capitalism down" in my opinion)I disagree that the logic is similar to dumpster diving. Dumpster diving is about minimising a person's reliance on capitalism. Yes it is not revolutionary, but it is not meant to be. It is an ethical choice.

"Illegalism", does not seem to be the same thing. It does not minimize one's reliance on capitalism as such. (Though obviously if one did live it to the full, it would. Stealing stuff ...)

But you have covered this in your reply to Xero.


black banner black gun makes a good point as well. If you truly do not follow any law (not even pragmatically). Then you will rapidly be picked up by the cops. And you will have the book thrown at you.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Anti-social Cyrenaic hedonism.

[RaiseYourVoice]

doing everything you are not allowed to is just another form of capitalism dominating your life isnt it? i mean its like satanists who fuel there believes from the bible or shit like that.

also... are you going to murder, rape, take people as hostage, destroy things for fun only because capitalism doesnt want you to? ffs i dont want you to do that either.

only because we fight capitatalism doesnt mean everything created by capitalism is entirely bad or wrong. we have to decide ourselves which laws are justified and which are not, thats not up to some dogmatic "they say its wrong so its right"

also this is counter-productive to class struggle. it is great for capitalists, because they can claim anarchist or leftist in generall destroy things for funs sake etc.
we dont have to obey law, but our actions have to be justified and not running around drunk and smashing car windows on the way.

[liberated_desire]

My way of life isn't about doing everything illegally, just what I enjoy and can get away with. Which is quite a lot, as it turns out.

[apathy maybe]

So long as you do accept that you will get caught eventually, and so long as you do not harm comrades or potential comrades, then good on you.

If you think that you will never get caught, well I think you are deluding yourself.

If you are harming comrades or potential comrades (stealing from them for example), then fuck off.

I too do what I want as much as I can, attempting not to get caught (taking into account the above two caveats). But I have been caught. It makes you smarter.

But do also join organised active groups fighting for real change, don't think that your individual actions can bring about a revolution.

Good luck!

[kaaos_af]

Everyone gets caught once or twice. Perhaps it's best we shut up about that lest the cops match us to our crimes.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 03:09 PM
My way of life isn't about doing everything illegally, just what I enjoy and can get away with. Which is quite a lot, as it turns out.
but can you see how this could be problematic if people were to use the same philosophy to do things which oppress or exploit other people?

like, if a man was to "enjoy" beating up on his wife, and he could get away with it because she was economically and emotionally dependant on him (due to capitalism and patriarchy) and she'd never tell, does that make it cool or revolutionary?

i mean, i'm far from being the sort to believe that the law adequately protects wom*n from domestic violence, or that by using the legal system it's possible to get rid of patriarchy, but as it stands at least in australian society the law is the only thing which does grant wom*n and children some sort of protection (albeit a weak one) from domestic abuse.

of course, if you have good feminist, anti-racist, queer liberation, anti-ableism, class war politics, then you'd probably not commit illegal acts which perpetuate oppression.. it's just worrying to think that people without progressive politics might use illegalism to fuck society up even more.

[liberated_desire]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 03:09 PM

My way of life isn't about doing everything illegally, just what I enjoy and can get away with. Which is quite a lot, as it turns out.
but can you see how this could be problematic if people were to use the same philosophy to do things which oppress or exploit other people?

I'm not interested in morality, or preventing the oppression of people other than me and mine. Everyone's a psychological egoist, whether they realize it or not, so one morality is about as good as another (or better yet, none!)- they're all just channels for the sublimation of desire. I've found it more fulfilling to cut to the chase.

I've made $35,000 this year, doing nothing but what I love. And I'm just getting started. And I'll never be caught. My name, forever, is "Unknown Perpetrator," and pretty newscasters speak it night after night with a quiver of wonder even as they try their best to wear disdain as demurely as their makeup.


people without progressive politics might use illegalism to fuck society up even more.

I think a good fuck is just what society needs. It's been dreaming about it, in the quiet hours at night, since its maiden years, but it always seems to shy away when the chance arises. What it really wants is for someone who knows what they're doing to just take control for a while.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I'm not interested in morality, or preventing the oppression of people other than me and mine. Everyone's a psychological egoist, whether they realize it or not, so one morality is about as good as another (or better yet, none!)- they're all just channels for the sublimation of desire. I've found it more fulfilling to cut to the chase.
Restriction on its way, methinks.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by rioters bloc+--> (rioters bloc)of course, if you have good feminist, anti-racist, queer liberation, anti-ableism, class-based politics, then you'd probably not commit illegal acts which perpetuate oppression.. it's just worrying to think that people without progressive politics might use illegalism to fuck society up even more.[/b]

Absolutely. Though I would have thought that this person would have been like that anyway, coming to a revolutionary left board. I could be wrong based on what they say though.

But how many non-progressive people are going to use the philosophy of illegalism to justify their acts? Criminals are already criminals, they do not need illegalism to justify it to themselves.



RedStar1916
Restriction on its way, methinks.Why? Being an egoist is not grounds for restriction I don't think. Oh well, I hope they stick around even if they do get restricted.



liberated_desire: Have you heard of the individualist anarchist/egoist Max Stirner? The timid school teacher with the violent writings?

[liberated_desire]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 3 2006, 06:28 AM
liberated_desire: Have you heard of the individualist anarchist/egoist Max Stirner?


Of course. I've never read him, though. I don't read much theory anymore.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by rioters [email protected] 2 2006, 08:01 AM
but can you see how this could be problematic if people were to use the same philosophy to do things which oppress or exploit other people?
Illegalism isn't really about doing anything illegal simply because it is illegal. There was some actual thought behind it, primarily from Victor Serge, which I'd be happy to type up if anybody is interested. In short, the idea is that there is nothing wrong with living in direct opposition to certain capitalist institutions (or that it is even a good thing!), ie robbing banks (or rich people...) if you need cash. Initially, this was manifested through burglaries and minor crimes of that sort. Once the car-jackings, highway robbery, bank robbery and public gunfire entered the mileu it became clear that "illegalism" might as well be called suicide.


it's just worrying to think that people without progressive politics might use illegalism to fuck society up even more.

Been there, done that. It became very hard to be an anarchist following the illegalist outrages in France, with even syndicalist papers getting raided and shut down by the state and every one and their brother in the anarchist movement being monitored, even the ones who explicitly denounced Bonnot, et al.

Whether that actually fucked society up any more is up to debate. Mostly it didn't effect anything, besides making the bourgeoisie very, very nervous. I'd highly advise picking up a copy of "The Bonnot Gang" from AK Press.

One of the major problems was the gang's dealings with proletarians who sided with the state and "public morality." They viewed such individuals as expendable or, worse, actually deserving of a shooting.