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ComradeRed
28th September 2006, 05:50
Introduction: This is a critique that covers the inconsistencies of both the Neoclassical school of economics and the Austrian school of economics (in that order).

First by using the assumptions of the Neoclassical school of thought, it is demonstratable that not only does their model break down but that supply and demand curves cannot be found.

Then it is demonstrated that contrary to the Neoclassical school's wishes that the prices are derived from the rate of profit rather than the other way around.

For the Austrians, the critique will be proven to hold likewise. The terrible irony is that this critique is heavily mathematically based.

The only reason for this is to demonstrate the patent absurdity of the "roundaboutness" method of value.

The reason why this critique is applicable to both the Austrian and Neoclassical Schools is because both accept the Marginalist paradigm which states mathematically the rate of profit is based on the prices. Insomuch as any school accepts the marginalist framework, this critique will still hold.

Author's Notes: It is most likely that most OI "economists" do not know the marginalist paradigm in its entirety (and that is likely to hold with the RevLeft "economists"). Thus I will have to explain the marginalist paradigm, it will either be an appendix or explained as we go along.

Also, this critique is based off of others' critiques of bourgeois economics, so I do not have any claim in originality of content, etc. I do take responsibility for the mathematical formalisms and the demonstration of the inconsistencies in the marginalist paradigm following its own instructions.

I also apologize for the poor writing style as this is probably going to be a hard read for most (all?) of you due to the high math content. I am going to use "LaTeX syntax" for math, so it will be somewhat "unified".

Section I: Neoclassical Nonsense

So, one of the principles of the Marginalist paradigm which comes into question is the "Diminishing Productivity Causes Rising Price" proposition. Let us take an example firm.

This is the input and output of a hypothetical firm:

Labor - Output - Wage Bill - Total Cost - Marginal Product - Marginal Cost - Average Variable Cost - Average Fixed Cost - Average total cost - Total Revenue - Profit
1, 52, 1000, 251000, 52.0, 19.2, 19, 4808, 4827, 208, -250792
9, 611, 9000, 259000, 83.6, 12.0, 15, 409, 424, 2443, -256557
10, 698, 10000, 260000, 87.5, 11.4, 14, 358, 372, 2793, -257207
100, 23333, 100000, 350000, 398.5, 2.5, 4, 11, 15, 93333, -256667
276, 131111, 276000, 526000, 772.5, 1.3, 2, 2, 4, 524444, -1556
277, 131885, 277000, 527000, 773.7, 1.3, 2, 2, 4, 527539, 539
400, 233333, 400000, 650000, 850.0, 1.2, 2, 1, 3, 933333, 283333
500, 316667, 500000, 750000, 800.5, 1.2, 2, 1, 2, 1266667, 516667
700, 443333, 700000, 950000, 401.5, 2.5, 2, 1, 2, 1773333, 823333
725, 452370, 725000, 975000, 323.5, 3.1, 2, 1, 2, 1809479, 834479
730, 453938, 730000, 980000, 307.1, 3.3, 2, 1, 2, 1815753, 835753
735, 455424, 735000, 985000, 290.5, 3.4, 2, 1, 2, 1821698, 836698
740, 456827, 740000, 990000, 273.7, 3.7, 2, 1, 2, 1827307, 837307
745, 458144, 745000, 995000, 256.6, 3.9, 2, 1, 2, 1832576, 837576
746, 458397, 746000, 996000, 253.1, 4.0, 2, 1, 2, 1833588, 837588
747, 458647, 747000, 997000, 249.7, 4.0, 2, 1, 2, 1834587, 837587
748, 458893, 748000, 998000, 246.2, 4.1, 2, 1, 2, 1835572, 837572
800, 466667, 800000, 1050000, 52.0, 19.2, 2, 1, 2, 1866667, 816667
The Assumptions of this table: the worker is paid $1000 for her wage, and the firm has fixed costs of $250000. The market price of the commodity produced is held at $4 per unit.

The idea is that the supply curve has a positive slope ("it goes up") because productivity falls as output rises.

This falling productivity means that there is a rising price. Therefore there is a link between marginal productivity (the amount produced by the last worker) and the marginal cost (the cost of the production of the last unit produced).

You will note this in the table given above in the "code" section.

As the number of workers increase from just one fellow doing all the work, the workers can get relatively more specialized in her selected work.

Note that there is a positive profit with the 277th worker.

The trend of rising "marginal productivity" continues up util the 400th worker. At this time the "marginal costs" have fallen dramatically.

The "marginal product" of the 400th worker is 850 units. THe "marginal cost" of this worker is the wage of $1000 divided by 850 (the number of units produced), which is $1.18 (rounded to 1.2 for the table).

The fixed costs have now becomes trivial with the output level of 233333.

According to the marginalist paradigm, the marginal productivity decreases. The "reasoning" behind this is that the variable input (labor) has exceeded the optimal level for the constant variable (capital, i.e. the means of production).

It is important to bear in mind that the next worker still apparently adds input, but at a diminishing rate. Since "marginal product" is now falling, "maginal cost" will now start to rise.

But please take note of this very important fact: profits continue to rise even though "marginal productivity" is falling and "marginal cost" is rising!

In economic jargon this is because "marginal revenue" exceeds "marginal cost".

The rise of profit ends with the 747th worker added...her marginal product of 249.7 units is sold for $998.8 as opposed to $1000.

At this point, any further worker added would cause a loss of profits.

This is where the "marginal cost" is equal to the "marginal revenue" and where profit is maximized.

Now what happens is that we are on to stage two, falling productivity means rising cost.

But what economists do is rush to argue that EVERYTHING is determined by diminishing "marginal productivity" (see Browning and Browning).

Now where profit is maximized is when the linear total revenue function for output Q minus the curvilinear total cost function for output Q is greatest.

Now if we were to graph this hypothetical firm's "marginal" and average costs, and "marginal revenue" it would be shocking to most students of economics:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Profit_max_marginal_small.png

Well, this is fine and dandy, and it looks nice...but as others have pointed out (Sraffa 1926) it doesn't work for an industrial economy.

The crux of Sraffa's argument is simple: the common position would be constant "marginal returns" and therefore horizontal (as opposed to rising) "marginal costs".

The importance of this is that since "marginal returns" determine everything, Sraffa's argument would be a critique of the entire "marginalist" paradigm!

If constant returns are the norm, then the output function instead is a straight line (just like the total revenue line, though with a different slope).

If the slope of the revenue is greater than the slope of the cost curve, then every unit sold after the firm met its costs would spell profit. The more units sold, the more profit.

In fact, the problem is that there would be no limit to the amount a competitive firm would produce (since it would want to maximize profits). The firms would want to produce an infinite number of goods!

This critique is rejected by most economists who use the following "reasoning": if Sraffa was right, then why don't firms want to produce an infinite number of goods? They don't, so Sraffa's wrong.

In other words it is remarking to something that works in practice "Ah, but does it work in theory?" The opposite case should hold true...sure Neoclassical models work in theory, but they don't work in practice.

Here is Sraffa's argument:

Sraffa focused on the assumptions that there were "factors of production" (which were fixed in the short run), and that supply and demand were independent of each other.

He argued that both assumptions could not be held simultaneously.

In circumstances where the "factors of production" were fixed in the short run, supply and demand ceased being independent of each other...so every point on the supply curve would satisfy a different demand curve.

Alternatively, when supply and demand were independent of each other, then it became impossible for the "factors of production" to be held as fixed.

Thus the "marginal costs" of production would be held as fixed.

Sraffa then pointed out that the Classical school also had its own "law of diminishing marginal returns".


But in the Classical School's case it wasn't in price theory...it was in the distribution theory (generally confined to rents).

The concept for the classical school was that farming was done on the best quality land first.

When the population grew, the lesser quality lands were brought into use. This poorer land would have a poorer yield.

"Diminishing marginal returns" thus applied because the quality of the land decreased...not because of relations between "fixed" and "variable" "factors of production".

Sraffa argued that the use of "diminishing marginal returns" in Neoclassical economics was an inappropriate application of this conceptin the context of their model...where the model assumed that all the firms were so small relative to the market that they could not influence the price of their commodity and that all "factors of production" were homogeneous.

IN the Neoclassical model falling quality of inputs couldn't explain "diminishing marginal productivity".

Instead, productivity could only fall because the ratio of "variable factors of production" to "fixed" ones exceeded some optimal level.

But when is it valid to assume that a given "factor of production", e.g. land, to be fixed? Sraffa pointed out that it is valid when industries were defined very broadly...but then Supply and Demand ceased being independent of each other.

So suppose we did take an industry sector, say Agriculture, and treat a "factor of production" (say Land!) to be fixed. Since the only way to add more land is to take it from some other sector (e.g. Tourism or Manufacture) and converting it, it is thus difficult to change the amount of land in the short run. The "Agriculture Sector" will suffer from "Diminishing returns", as predicted.

However, the definition of the agriculture sector is so vast that changes in its outputs must affect other industries. In particular an attempt to change its output would require more labor, which takes away from the workers of other industries... because labor is the only "variable factor of production" for agriculture.

This might appear to make the case for "diminishing returns" stronger since the chief variable input would become increasingly expensive.

However, it undermines two crucial aspects of the model: a) the assumptions that supply and demand are independent of each other and, b) the proposition that one market can be studied indepedent of all other markets.

Instead, if increasing the supply of agriculture changes the relative prices of land and labor, then it will also change the distribution of income. But this changes the demand curve.

This makes it impossible to draw independent supply and demand curves that intersect in just one point. Sraffa says:
Originally posted by Sraffa+1926--> (Sraffa @ 1926)If in the production of a particular commodity a considerable part of a factor is employed, the total amout f which is fixed or can be increased only at a more than proportional cost, a small increase in the production of the commodity will necessitate a more intense utilisation of that factor, and this will affect in the same manner the cost of the commodity in question and the cost of hte other commodities into the production of which that factor enters, and since commodities into the production of which a common special factor enters are frequently, to a certain extent, substitutes for one another...the modification in their price will not be without appreciable effects upon demand in the industry concerned.[/b]
These non-negligible impacts upon demand mean that the demand curve will shift with every movement along its supply curve.

(Which is rather interesting in and of itself...)

Supply and demand therefore intersect in multiple locations, and it is impossibe to say which price or quantity prevails as the "best equilibrium point".

So "diminishing returns" does not exist when industries are broadly defined, no industry can be considered independent of another, as supply and curve analysis would require.

But What If We Define The Sector "Narrowly"? Well, it is then unlikely that "diminishing returns" would exist.

Not because supply and demand curves aren't independent of each other (it most likely is at a smaller scale), but because it would not be reasonable to assume that some "factor of production" is fixed.

Sraffa argues that in the real world, firms and industries will normally be able to vary ll factors of production fairly easily.

This is because these additional inputs can be taken from other industries or garnered from stocks of under-utilised resources.

That is, if there is an increased demand for wheat, then rather than farming a given quantity of land more intensively, farmers will instead convert some land from another crop (e.g. barley) to wheat.

Or perhaps convert some of their own land which is currently lying fallow to wheat production.

Or non-wheat farmers will choose to produce wheat.

As old Sraffa said:
Originally posted by [email protected]
If we next take an industry which employs only a small part of the "constant factor" (which appears more appropriate for the study of the particular equilibrium of a single industry), we find that a (small) increase in its production generally met much more by drawing "marginal doses" of the constant factor from other industries than intensifying its own utilisation of it; thus the increase in cost will be practically negligible...In all cases, the ratio of one factor of production to any other will remain relatively constant, while the total amount of resources given to production will rise.

This results in a straight-line output function.

A straight-line output curve results in constant marignal costs and falling average costs.

This means that every sale after q_{min} is profit, and that sales are not limited by rising cost. Instead, costs for a firm are likely to be constant (or perhaps falling) within the normal range of output. IF economic theory is right that firms are facing a horizontal demand curve, THEN according to economic theory the firm would be trying to produce an infinite output.

This means that "diminishing returns" still doesn't work for either the grandest scopes or the narrowest scopes...and the entire marginalist paradigm falls to pieces.

Sraffian Criticism of Marginalism

Well, I am sure that all the Austrian "economists" are fed up with the mathematical "psychobabble" (:lol:) above. Here's the real beauty of this critique: inasmuch as the Austrians accept the marginalist paradigm, they too are subject to the above critique!

But just for them I have worked a special critique that is especially mathematically complex! It has to do with their "roundaboutness" theory of pricing.

You see, one of the fatal flaws is that the rate of profit is determined by the prices rather than the other way round. This leaves itself open to Sraffa's criticism of the Neoclassical school (Sraffa 1960).

So, to give you all a taste of Sraffa's (1960) critique, here is the arguments he gave. Bear in mind that this is so far a criticism of Neoclassical economics and that I will later demonstrate its validity with respect to the Austrians.

Suppose we had a hypothetical economy:
240 qrs Wheat + 12 t. Iron + 18 pigs -> 450 qrs Wheat
90 qrs Wheat + 6 t. Iron + 12 pigs -> 21 t. Iron
120 qrs Wheat + 3 t. Iron + 30 pigs -> 60 pigs

Please note that the commodities are arbitrary, of course it does not make any sense that a pig makes iron but the logic of the criticism is invariant to changes in the commodities' names.

Now what you do is for each sector substitute in x for the value of 1 qr wheat, y for 1 t. Iron, and z for 1 pig.
240 x + 12 y + 18 z = 450 x
90 x + 6 y + 12 z = 21 y
120 x + 3 y + 30 z = 60 z

Note the change of "->" (which should be read as the chemistry sign "yields" or "produces") to "=" because we changed the units to value.

Now, we have a system of linear equations! We then subtract the sectors inputs to get:
12 y + 18 z = 450 x - 240 x = 210 x
90 x + 12 z = 21 y - 6 y = 15 y
120 x + 3 y = 60 z - 30 z = 30 z

Then we can substitute in for the corresponding units in any arbitrary sector:
12 y + (18/30)(120 x + 3 y) = 210 x
and it carries out to be:
12 y + 72 x + 1.8 y = 210 x
13.8 y = 138 x
y = 10x (QED).
To get the value that 10 qrs of wheat is exchangeable for 1 t. Iron. Now we can substitute this in for the pig sector to get:
120x + 3y = 30z
(120x)(y/10x) + 3y = 30z
12y + 3 y = 30z
15 y = 30z
y = 2z (= 10x) (QED)
So we have our economy solved! 10 qrs of Wheat is exchangeable for 1 t. Iron or 2 pigs.

Now the next step is where Sraffa's model introduces the rate of profit. If we have a hypothetical economy with a surplus output:
280 qrs. Wheat + 12 t. Iron -> 575 qrs. Wheat
120 qrs. Wheat + 8 t. Iron -> 20 t. Iron

We cannot do what we did before. Instead we introduce the rate of profit scalar r such that r>0.

We once again set x to be the value of 1 qr. Wheat, and y to be 1 t. Iron, and introduce the rate of profit mechanism in our calculations:
(1+r)(280 x + 12y) = 575x
(1+r)(120 x + 8y) = 20y

I'm too lazy to teach math, and I'm really not that good at it (doing it over the internet-wise), so I'm going to tell you how to solve this but not show all the steps. You want to determine the rate of profit first.

I'll give you the answer: r = 25% = .25; ok?

Now we can figure out the exchange values rather simply: plug and chug techniques from good old algebra!

We then get:
(1.25)(280x + 12y) = 575x
(1.25)(120x + 8y) = 20y
which then reduces to
350x + 15y = 575x
150x + 10y = 20y
and then subtract the inputs from both sides (the x input for the x sector, and the y input for the y sector, etc.):
350x + 15y - 350x = 575x - 350x = 15y = 225x
150x + 10y -10y = 20y - 10y = 150x = 10y
and then simply divide!
15y/15 = 225x/15 = y = 15x
150x/10 = 10y/10 = y = 15x (QED)

The general scheme is to figure out the rate of profit, then plug it back in, and solve algebraically (remember each sector is an independent equation).

Now, if we were really uptight about realism, we could have this be accurate to any arbitrary degree (depending on how willing the modeller is).

But what about labor now? And wages? Etc.

NOTE: this is getting too complicated, I think, for the general online community here and thus I will avoid some of the models.

Well, supposing we had an explicit amount of labor, wage is an unknown represented by the letter w.

Also, I wish to introduce the "maximum rate of profit" scalar R. You see, Sraffa shows there is an appropriate measuring stick (the "standard ratio of commodities" or more shortly "the standard commodity") which exposes a simple, linear relationship between wage w, the actual rate of profit r, and the maximum rate of profit R.

The wage w falls linearly as the rate of profit r rises towards the Maximum rate of profit R (or in keen math symbols! w->0 as r->R).

Here is an example table:
Maximum R = 25%
Wage (% of surplus) - Profit Rate
0% 25%
10% 23%
20% 20%
30% 18%
40% 15%
50% 13%
60% 10%
70% 8%
80% 5%
90% 3%
100% 0%
So if the workers get a 0% wage, i.e. they work for free or as slaves, the capitalist would get the entire 25%. At 10% wage, the capitalist gets 23%; and so on.

Here's the underlying critique: Rather than prices determining the distribution of income, the distribution of income between wges and profits must be known before prices can be calculated.

What's even more ironic is that Sraffa demonstrates this while the economy is in constant equilibrium and static...the same assumptions that should make the marginalist paradigm work!

The terrible irony is that even in conditions that marginalists assume, marginalism doesn't work!

And Now, For Something Completely Different: Austrian Economics

Now I am guarenteed the Austrians are pissed at me...having to go through all that math and still, I am assured, they say "That model is entirely flawed, the price of a ton of iron is the amount people are willing to pay." etc.

Well it's so hard to criticize a school that rejects both empiricism and math and take them seriously. So I did what any scientist would do in such a situation take empiricism and math and tried to criticize Austrian economics as seriously as possible.

First off, a summary of the "roundaboutness" theory...simply the idea that a cheapening of capital (via a fall of the rate of interest) will lead to a less "roundabout" approach to production, meaning that more direct labor and less indirect capital will be applied to its production.

Now, the problem is the very same of the Neoclassical paradigm: from prices we get the rate of profit, wages, etc. Whereas it is demonstratable that it is not so.

Consider our glorious widget industry. For simplicity, there are two ways to make a widget: Method A which involves the application of 1 wage unit now, 8 units last year, and 1 unit 8 years ago; and Method B which involves 1 unit now and 20 units a year ago; at a higher rate of profit, the order could reverse...and it could reverse again for a higher rate of profit.

This makes the Austrian theory of "roundaboutness" as flawed as the Neoclassical Marginal productivity theory. Of course, to find out about how flawed that is, you need to read the above parts of this long critique.

And now for a horribly ironic ending of my mini-critique. The Austrians, who are quite vocal against equilibrium analysis (arguing in favor of disequilibrium), their preference for capitalism as a social system is dependent on the belief that it will remain close to equilibrium. If (instead) capitalism is endogeneously unstable, then it may remain substantially distant from equilibrium situations all the time. This weakens the Austrian school, to the extent that its support for capitalism emanates from conditions which are assumed to apply in equilibrium!

Post-Script: A Critique of Marginal Utility

Most of you, I am guessing, expected it to come to this eventually.

Well, any elementary introductory Microeconomics text (e.g. Browning and Browning) will tell you that it is feasible to measure the demand curve.

Well, it is worthwhile to quote the "economists" themselves:

Originally posted by Browning and [email protected] Chapter Two, Page 55
Utility is simply a subjective measure of usefulness, or want satisfaction, that results from consumption. Units in which it is measured are arbitrary, but they are commonly referred to as utils: a util is one unit of utility. --emphasis in bold is mine added

Now, it is first off important to note that "arbitrariness" is a quality given to a mathematical quantity that denotes that the quantity itself is heuristic, and used to find something else that's more important.

E.g. in Riemannian geometry, the affine parameter \lambda satisfies an arbitrary linear function such that a*\lambda + b exists. It doesn't matter what a and b are, what matters is that lambda satisfies it.

In other words "arbitrary" used in math (as it is used in its mathematical sense here) means "heuristic".

However, the measurement of utility is rather vital... are we measuring in terms of the utility "gained" from a tea spoon of sugar or the utility of a human life?

Worse, who decides the utility of these things? Someone who has no use for sugar wouldn't get anything from tea spoons of sugar (supposing that there is some measure of utility here). And how does it compare to a human life???

Well, those of you who are not really well read in Economics may be saying by now "Yeah yeah, no measure of utility, who cares?" Well here's the problem:
Browning and [email protected] Chapter 2, page 58
The slope of an indifference curve equals the ratio of the marginal utilities of the two goods. --emphasis is Browning and Browning's, not mine.

So we find the demand curve from the ratio of the diminishing marginal utility curves. (Remember: money is also a commodity, though I don't see how it could have a diminishing marginal utility curve.)

You can simply change the Y axis to be the money-commodity (or assuming that it is not a commodity-standardized economy, e.g. an economy off the gold standard, it would be money itself).

But marginal utility's measurement is still a problem in reality. Although the ratios are all that is important, if you cannot measure a util you are out of luck. That is a SERIOUS problem for the Neoclassical paradigm!

It totally defeats the ability to predict (and indeed measure!) the demand curve...which then defeats the entire idea of "supply and demand" for a "theory of value".

Bibliography (This is probably not in any order)

Bohm-Bawerk. Karl Marx and the Close of His System Orien Ed. 1949.

Browning, Edgar K., Browning, Jacquelene M. Microeconomic Theory and Applications Third Ed. 1986.

Lord Robbins An Essay on The Nature & Significance of Economic Science Third Ed. 1984.

Rothbard, M. America's Great Depression.

Rothbard, M. Power and the Market.

Sraffa, Piero. "The Laws of Returns Under Competitive Conditions." Economic Journal, 40: 538-550.

Sraffa, Piero. The Production of Commodities by means of Commodities First Ed. 1960.

JazzRemington
28th September 2006, 06:15
I don't know why, but I have a feeling this thread is going to be great.

red team
28th September 2006, 08:07
(1+r)(280 x + 12y) = 575x
(1+r)(120 x + 8y) = 20y

I'm too lazy to teach math, and I'm really not that good at it (doing it over the internet-wise), so I'm going to tell you how to solve this but not show all the steps. You want to determine the rate of profit first.


(1+r) * (280x+12y) = 575x
(1+r) * (120x+8y) = 20y

Let u = 1+r

u12y = 575x - u(280x) 1st equation
u120x = 20y - u(8y) 2nd equation

u12y = x (575 - 280u) 1st equation
u120x = y (20 - 8u) 2nd equation

12y/x = (575 - 280u) / u 1st equation

120x/y = (20 - 8u) / u 2nd equation
y/120x = u / (20 - 8u) 2nd equation
12y/x = (12 * 120)u / (20 - 8u) 2nd equation
12y/x = 1440u / (20 - 8u) 2nd equation

now 2nd equation: 12y/x = 1440u / (20 - 8u) is equal to
1st equation: 12y/x = (575 - 280u) / u

(575 - 280u) / u = 1440u / (20 - 8u)
(575 - 280u)(20 - 8u) = 1440 * square(u)
(115 - 56u)(20 - 8u) = 288 * square(u), divide by 5
448 * square(u) - 2040u + 2300 = 288 * square(u)
160 * square(u) - 2040u + 2300 = 0, subtract 448square(u) by 288square(u)
square(u) - 12.75u + 14.375 = 0, divide by 160
square(u) - 12.75u + square(6.375) = square(6.375) - 14.375
square(u - 6.375) = 40.640625 - 14.375 = 26.265625
square_root(square(u - 6.375)) = square_root(26.265625), complete the square
u - 6.375 = +5.125 or -5.125
u = 6.375 - 5.125
u = 1.25

u = 1 + r
r = 1.25 - 1 = .25


I'll give you the answer: r = 25% = .25; ok?

Ok.

But what about wages, perisable goods, non-perishable goods, semi-perishable goods, capital goods, amortization of consumer goods, planned obsolescence....

If I trade my money for a piece of chicken the chicken disappears down my mouth (and out my arse :lol: ), but the money that was traded is kept by the people who sold me the chicken, so it wasn't really a trade at all.

Herman
28th September 2006, 08:52
Err... I got lost at
Introduction:.

KC
28th September 2006, 09:00
If I trade my money for a piece of chicken the chicken disappears down my mouth (and out my arse laugh.gif ), but the money that was traded is kept by the people who sold me the chicken, so it wasn't really a trade at all.

Of course it was. You merely consumed your commodity, or to be more general, you used it.

That person that you gave the money to will in turn buy a commodity with the money they got from you and consume it, or use it.

Or maybe I don't understand what you're trying to say...

red team
28th September 2006, 09:35
Originally posted by Khayembii Communique
Of course it was. You merely consumed your commodity, or to be more general, you used it.

That person that you gave the money to will in turn buy a commodity with the money they got from you and consume it, or use it.

Or maybe I don't understand what you're trying to say...

There's a disconnect between capital goods and consumer goods. The consumer goods with food is just a blatant example of this because it quickly consumed making any trade with money that retains its value suspect. Who owns the farms or factories? If I was to trade money with businesses that were to pay money to all workers for completing a product that is a result of labour then the money that was given out as wages implies that the money is equivalent the result of the labour.

1 barrel of corn = 1 hour of labour

equivalency right?

right :rolleyes:

If I trade what is supposedly an equivalency to the result of what I put in as labour then that item that is suppose to represent this equivalency should correspond one-to-one to the value of the item that was traded. What is the value of the corn after I've ate it? What is the value of the money that supposedly represents the value of the corn which originally was represented as the farm labour that was traded for money in the first place? It didn't disappear, but continues on retaining the same value as the labour for producing the corn even after the corn and therefore the labour that went into producing it has long since been consumed. That means the money that was traded for perishable goods is undepreciated labour. Depreciation just doesn't work one way where companies divide the estimated value of a capital good over its useful lifetime. It must work both ways in which traded for items that quickly loses its utility value (like food) depreciates the money that was traded for the perishable items, otherwise the money transaction was simply false accounting. But money can't do that.

Would the situation be any better if the production units were owned by workers. Well, look at it this way. Supposing that money represent wealth that can be readily used for purchasing then when workers purchase their own products money flows back to their own treasury. Great, now that they're paid with their own money why should they bother to work producing real wealth to back up that money as being valuable for trade? Why not just pay themselve with what they have in the treasury and spend it again and allow it to flow back again into the treasury? Money is a great device for merchants that make a living trading products of labour without doing any themselves, but absolutely useless as a device in the new society where all products are suppose to be accounted for the labour that went into making them.

By the way, why do you think software companies, energy companies, agriculture companies and pharmaceutical companies are among the biggest and wealthiest corporations in the world? Could it be that they are trading highly perishable or cheaply duplicatable products for non-perishable money?

Jazzratt
28th September 2006, 12:39
I wonder why the cappies haven't replied, maybe the big mean numbers scared them off. :lol:

apathy maybe
28th September 2006, 13:02
They scare me off ...

I think there are two people who understand what is going on, and you and I aren't either.

Anyway, good one C Red for the work, now do an economics course and submit that as a paper :D.

colonelguppy
28th September 2006, 19:27
ok i'm pretty hungover but i'll sift through some of this if i can

this caught my attention


If the slope of the revenue is greater than the slope of the cost curve, then every unit sold after the firm met its costs would spell profit. The more units sold, the more profit.

In fact, the problem is that there would be no limit to the amount a competitive firm would produce (since it would want to maximize profits). The firms would want to produce an infinite number of goods!

This critique is rejected by most economists who use the following "reasoning": if Sraffa was right, then why don't firms want to produce an infinite number of goods? They don't, so Sraffa's wrong.

In other words it is remarking to something that works in practice "Ah, but does it work in theory?" The opposite case should hold true...sure Neoclassical models work in theory, but they don't work in practice.

they don't produce infinite amounts because there's not infinite demand


In circumstances where the "factors of production" were fixed in the short run, supply and demand ceased being independent of each other...so every point on the supply curve would satisfy a different demand curve.

Alternatively, when supply and demand were independent of each other, then it became impossible for the "factors of production" to be held as fixed.

this doesn't make sense at all.

i gotta go to class i'll read the rest of this later.

Publius
28th September 2006, 22:58
Even I, as terrible at math as I am, was able to understand that.

If it's of any worth, you've scared me off from economics ComradeRed.

Not necessarily because of your destruction of modern economics, simply because it requires too much math for my liking.

IronColumn
28th September 2006, 23:42
I'm not sure if this was hidden in that dense text, but also marginal utility is absurd in its supply and demand models.

For example, they (neoclassical economists) claim price is a reflection of utility (i.e. each individual person decides whether to consume based on the arbitrary unit of utility, that determines prices). But now how does one determine the marginal utility? Only by evaluating the price! So in these silly little supply and demand models we have a circular logic that can only function within the frozen-in-time model.

As for tracing the original cause of prices back to its original root, as Marx provided in his theory and as needed to solve the circular logic problem, capitalist economics is utterly helpless to surmount this problem.

colonelguppy
29th September 2006, 02:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 03:43 PM
I'm not sure if this was hidden in that dense text, but also marginal utility is absurd in its supply and demand models.

For example, they (neoclassical economists) claim price is a reflection of utility (i.e. each individual person decides whether to consume based on the arbitrary unit of utility, that determines prices). But now how does one determine the marginal utility? Only by evaluating the price! So in these silly little supply and demand models we have a circular logic that can only function within the frozen-in-time model.

As for tracing the original cause of prices back to its original root, as Marx provided in his theory and as needed to solve the circular logic problem, capitalist economics is utterly helpless to surmount this problem.
no you use common sense to determine marginal utility, price has nothing to do with how useful something is in applicaiton.

ComradeRed
29th September 2006, 04:36
Originally posted by red team+--> (red team)
Ok.

But what about wages, perisable goods, non-perishable goods, semi-perishable goods, capital goods, amortization of consumer goods, planned obsolescence....

If I trade my money for a piece of chicken the chicken disappears down my mouth (and out my arse laugh.gif ), but the money that was traded is kept by the people who sold me the chicken, so it wasn't really a trade at all. [/b] Red Team, I would highly suggest that you read Piero Sraffa's Production of Commodities by means of Commodities. It deals with the model I presented in greater detail.

It covers capital goods, consumer goods, etc. The only problem I have with Sraffa is his treatment of time (it's a statical analysis, very much like the Neoclassical one, as opposed to a more chaotic one).

I myself am too lazy to post a summary of the entire book here, but be warned it is very heavily mathematical (so much so that even I had trouble with it!).


Originally posted by colonelguppy+--> (colonelguppy)they don't produce infinite amounts because there's not infinite demand[/b] That is a misunderstanding of the criticism, because you are using the macroeconomic interpretation. This is a criticism of the microeconomic theory of value, which places emphasis on the marginal cost analysis of a firm...which was proven to be unsound.

The macroeconomic theories in bourgeois economics are heavily dependent on the microeconomic theory (that's the whole "Neoclassical-Keynesian synthesis" theory).

You see, if you go back and read my post, you will find that the firm will want to maximize profits. And that is diminishing with respect to rising costs due to falling marginal productivity.

However, in industrial societies it is empirically sound to treat marginal productivity as constant; which then throws a wrench into the entire marginalist paradigm.

Sadly, that critique is a real critique of the argument (though it is a straw man of the whole argument).


[email protected]
I'm not sure if this was hidden in that dense text, but also marginal utility is absurd in its supply and demand models. See the appendix :D


colonelguppy
no you use common sense to determine marginal utility, price has nothing to do with how useful something is in applicaiton. Now that doesn't follow with canonical microeconomics, see Browning and Browning (you see, the marginal utility of commodity X over the marginal utility of commodity Y is equal to the price of X over the price of Y).

Further, how the hell do you measure utility? :huh: Browning and Browning says that the units are "arbitrary" (which in math-speak means heuristic and not necessary to know) but it is necessary to know if you are going to measure the demand curve.

(The indifference curve is derived from the diminishing marginal utility curve.)

red team
29th September 2006, 06:57
In circumstances where the "factors of production" were fixed in the short run, supply and demand ceased being independent of each other...so every point on the supply curve would satisfy a different demand curve.

Alternatively, when supply and demand were independent of each other, then it became impossible for the "factors of production" to be held as fixed.


this doesn't make sense at all.

i gotta go to class i'll read the rest of this later.


Of course it makes sense.

This:

(1.25)(280x + 12y) = 575x
(1.25)(120x + 8y) = 20y

are simply lines through space with the number of variables for quantity of labor, money, raw materials, whatever... for each industry to allocate in order to meet the buying/selling quantity for every other industry to match. If you solve for every variable then you've solved the quantity of each resource demanded by each respected industry before they agree to sell. If there are factors of production being scalar multipliers for each line then the multiplier must either be fixed in which case every supply curve by every industry would match every other supply curve at a specific point because each curve would have been fixed and unchanging (and we know often that happens in the real world :lol: ) in relation to all other curves. If the multiplier is variable then the curves would not meet at any one specific point, but would meet at a range of points making the quantities almost impossible to determine since factors of production are different for every industry and as stated is constantly changing through time.

But its all an academic exercise. The real world doesn't work that way as you've got to take into account many other things as well as human psychology and external world events. How can you graph that on an equation?

colonelguppy
29th September 2006, 09:07
they don't produce infinite amounts because there's not infinite demand That is a misunderstanding of the criticism, because you are using the macroeconomic interpretation. This is a criticism of the microeconomic theory of value, which places emphasis on the marginal cost analysis of a firm...which was proven to be unsound.

The macroeconomic theories in bourgeois economics are heavily dependent on the microeconomic theory (that's the whole "Neoclassical-Keynesian synthesis" theory).

You see, if you go back and read my post, you will find that the firm will want to maximize profits. And that is diminishing with respect to rising costs due to falling marginal productivity.

However, in industrial societies it is empirically sound to treat marginal productivity as constant; which then throws a wrench into the entire marginalist paradigm.

Sadly, that critique is a real critique of the argument (though it is a straw man of the whole argument).[/QUOTE]

you can't just make assumptions on the whole issue of capitalist economics by attacking marginal cost. i read through your post and i still don't understand (maybe because i'm drunk lol) what point you're trying to make about economics.


Further, how the hell do you measure utility? :huh: Browning and Browning says that the units are "arbitrary" (which in math-speak means heuristic and not necessary to know) but it is necessary to know if you are going to measure the demand curve.

utility is measured subjectively through each person who buys a product.

Severian
29th September 2006, 10:47
Wow, I actually understood most of that - with effort. Since some other people say they did too - it's probably a pretty decent popularization.

Have you considered getting some of this stuff published other places? I have no idea where that'd be.....

So, you said this wasn't original - do you just mean the underpinnings, or have all the arguments been previously published?

I ask partly 'cause I'm wondering just how unscientific the field of economics is....if they'd be unwilling to publish arguments like these, or if they've been published and ignored.

That "rebuttal" of Sraffa you described it pretty rich......

t_wolves_fan
29th September 2006, 17:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 08:43 PM
I'm not sure if this was hidden in that dense text, but also marginal utility is absurd in its supply and demand models.

For example, they (neoclassical economists) claim price is a reflection of utility (i.e. each individual person decides whether to consume based on the arbitrary unit of utility, that determines prices). But now how does one determine the marginal utility? Only by evaluating the price! So in these silly little supply and demand models we have a circular logic that can only function within the frozen-in-time model.


Wrong. Marginal utility is not determined by price, it is determined by supply of a good vis-à-vis other goods.

Google the “diamond-water paradox” sometime.

Scarcity = high marginal utility = higher price. It is not circular because while scarcity can cause higher prices, higher prices cannot cause scarcity – if something is scarce it will be scarce regardless of the price.

Severian
30th September 2006, 00:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 08:06 AM
Wrong. Marginal utility is not determined by price, it is determined by supply of a good vis-à-vis other goods.
Hm. So demand is determined by marginal utility which, according to you, is determined by supply.

So again, supply and demand are not independent, and it's impossible to draw supply and demand curves which intersect at one point. Rather, for each point on the supply curve, there is a different demand curve.

So again, marginalist theory falls apart from its own internal contradictions.


Google the “diamond-water paradox” sometime.

I just did, and it looks like you're missing the point.

I'm sure ComradeRed is aware that in marginalist theory, marginal utility varies with supply.

But that doesn't tell anyone how to measure or determine the marginal utility - other than by measuring prices.

Wikipedia also mentions that the labor theory of value neatly resolves this supposed paradox....

ComradeRed
30th September 2006, 04:39
Originally posted by colonelguppy+--> (colonelguppy)you can't just make assumptions on the whole issue of capitalist economics by attacking marginal cost. i read through your post and i still don't understand (maybe because i'm drunk lol) what point you're trying to make about economics.[/b] Look, marginal cost is integral to the marginalist paradigm. Insomuch as any school of economics accepts the marginalist paradigm this critique will apply to said school.

It's really the entire marginalist paradigm I am attacking, not just a single aspect of it. Unfortunately, my writing style for this academic crap is rather poor for laypeople, so you will have to read it several times slowly to understand the critique fully.

That means though that the critique (it's actually Piero Sraffa's, not mine, I just put it in a more "user-friendly" style and applied it to Austrian Economics) applies to all schools that accepts the marginalist paradigm (which is why I can apply it to Austrian economics).


Originally posted by [email protected]
Wrong. Marginal utility is not determined by price, it is determined by supply of a good vis-à-vis other goods.

Google the “diamond-water paradox” sometime.

Scarcity = high marginal utility = higher price. It is not circular because while scarcity can cause higher prices, higher prices cannot cause scarcity – if something is scarce it will be scarce regardless of the price. I think it was Plato who once said: "Read a fucking book!" :lol: Or was that on a bookmark accrediting it to Plato?

Whichever, you clearly don't understand microeconomics, because it is a theorem that: MU(X)/MU(Y) = P(X)/P(Y), or in English the marginal utility of commodity X over the marginal utility of commodity Y is equal to the price of commodity X over the price of commodity Y.


Severian
So, you said this wasn't original - do you just mean the underpinnings, or have all the arguments been previously published? The only original parts to the whole critique that I take credit for is the application of Sraffa's critique to marginalism as a critique to Austrian economics.

The rest is my futile attempt to take a hugely mathematical critique and put it in a user-friendly form; you should see the original format of the critique if you think mine is mathematically dense!


That "rebuttal" of Sraffa you described it pretty rich...... I have nothing against Sraffa, indeed his model was merely a crucible to demonstrate the absurdity of the schools which accept marginalism. I don't know if I actually "rebutted" Sraffa, but I borrowed his critiques since they blasted bourgeois economics.

Severian
30th September 2006, 06:01
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 07:40 PM

That "rebuttal" of Sraffa you described it pretty rich...... I have nothing against Sraffa, indeed his model was merely a crucible to demonstrate the absurdity of the schools which accept marginalism. I don't know if I actually "rebutted" Sraffa, but I borrowed his critiques since they blasted bourgeois economics.
Sorry. What I meant was, that this was a pretty ridiculous counterargument by the capitalist economists.


This critique is rejected by most economists who use the following "reasoning": if Sraffa was right, then why don't firms want to produce an infinite number of goods? They don't, so Sraffa's wrong.

In other words it is remarking to something that works in practice "Ah, but does it work in theory?" The opposite case should hold true...sure Neoclassical models work in theory, but they don't work in practice.

If this whole critique has been around for decades, and that's the best counterargument the marginalists schools can come up with.....they're pretty hopeless.

mauvaise foi
1st October 2006, 23:25
The biggest problem with neoclassical and marginalist theory is that it collapses the distinction, made by the classical and Marxian economists, between use-value (roughly corresponding to "marginal utility") and exchange-value. Commodities, as Marx pointed out, have both a use-value and an exchange value. Use-value represents an object's utility, or the purpose it serves. Every use-value is qualitatively different from every other use-value. When one use value is exchanged for another use-value of a different kind, an exchange between commodities takes place. To use Marx's example: if I exchange 20 yards of linen for 1 coat, I can say that the value of the coat equals the value of the linen, or

1 coat=20 yds. of linen

But what value am I talking about here? I'm obviously not saying that the use-value of the coat is equal to the use-value of the linen, since the coat and the linen serve different purposes. I must be talking about something that is common to both of them. This something cannot be a physical property of both items, since physical properties are what constitute use-values. I am talking about a social property common to both commodities. That social property is human labor. Labor is quantified in terms of the amount of time it takes to produce a commodity. Therefore, what the equation is expressing is that the number of hours it took to produce 1 coat is the same number of hours it took to produce 20 yds. of linen. I am not necessarily saying that the price of both commodities is the same, because price is different from value. Price is of course affected by supply and demand, but value of a commodity is affected only by the amount of time it currently takes the average worker to produce that commodity.

ComradeRed
1st October 2006, 23:33
The biggest problem with neoclassical and marginalist theory is that it collapses the distinction, made by the classical and Marxian economists, between use-value (roughly corresponding to "marginal utility") and exchange-value. Well, one of the serious problems of bourgeois economics is that it starts with the Utilitarian philosophy...we "could" "calculate" out utility; that's utilitarianism in a nutshell.

Well, use-value is more of a boolean than a quantity...it's a "yes-no" quantity rather than a number.

Bourgeois economists mistake it for the latter and argue that the quantity derivative of the total utility from the consumption of a variable quantity of commodities is roughly equivalent to the indifference curve (the demand curve).

This is a serious problem if you actually go and try to calculate this out...especially when bourgeois economists outright admit there is no unit to utility!

That means that it is admitedly impossible to calculate out the demand curve! :lol: Oh the irony.

ComradeRed
9th October 2006, 02:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 11:59 AM
Even I, as terrible at math as I am, was able to understand that.

If it's of any worth, you've scared me off from economics ComradeRed.

Not necessarily because of your destruction of modern economics, simply because it requires too much math for my liking.
This statement is rather interesting, as I think most economics majors are those who "want to be a scientist without having to do hard math or have scientific rigor".

Which is, my guess, why Austrian Economics may become more popular...it totally rejects Math and Scientific Rigor!

That's kind of sad, to me as a physicist, to see someone use such pseudo-scientific (no, cargo cult scientific) approaches.

Publius
9th October 2006, 02:19
This statement is rather interesting, as I think most economics majors are those who "want to be a scientist without having to do hard math or have scientific rigor".

Oh, I can go for that in psychology.

I mean, it worked for Freud, Jung et al.



Which is, my guess, why Austrian Economics may become more popular...it totally rejects Math and Scientific Rigor!

I've heard praxeology can be difficult to learn as it, you know, doesn't make any fucking sense.

There's my high school psychology education at work already; I can figure out things like praxeology are bullshit without the slightest effort.