Aspects of communism

[Hool]

Though the last topic was a little stupid even i'll admit, there's a few questions i want answered if anybody's up for it. I'm trying to learn so don't bother insulting me.

Suppose communism was brought to the U.S., in a few generations, what's the motivation going to be for me to be a doctor when i can repair refridgerators and get the same pay?

Essentially, once in place, doesn't the communist party in itself become a beorgeosie, so far from what i have seen as far as history, most if not all communist (yes, we've established there are no "pure" communist examples) leaders have oppressed their people, like Stalin, Pol Pot if i'm not mistaken, Mao Zetong, and Ho Chi Minh?

How come there's no peaceful way to bring about communism? Even in other poor countries, case in point El Salvador where i admit it would help my country, people fought it adamently (i will admit the FMLN committed 10 times less war crimes/attrocities)

Those are a few for now i'm sure i'll think of more. Are any of you familiar with the FMLN or Farabundo Marti?

[colonelguppy]

they'll democratically decide who deserve the most pay, or something... is this common in communist idealogy, communists?

[Avtomatov]

How come there's no peaceful way to bring about communism?

The reason why there is no peaceful way to bring about communism, is because of the bourgeoise. The bourgeoise dont allow it, it has to be forced. When communists and socialists get elected they become corrupt and nothing gets done. Thats what happens to you when you engage in bourgeoise democracy. How come there wasnt a peaceful way for america to seperate from britain and become a "democracy"? How come revolution was necessary?

[apathy maybe]

If you had bothered to do a quick search before starting this thread, you would have noticed a number of other threads on this very topic.

For your benefit though, what motivation is there for you to be a doctor now? What you aren't and have no intention of ever becoming one? What the fuck was the point of using that as an example then?

People do things because they are interested in them, or because they want to help people or whatever. Not everyone is a greedy SOB who would kill their own mother if they could make a buck.

Another thing, both doctors and refrigerator repairers are necessary for a society at this level of industrialisation to function. So why would the doctor get paid more?



Originally posted by Hool+--> (Hool)Essentially, once in place, doesn't the communist party in itself become a beorgeosie, so far from what i have seen as far as history, most if not all communist (yes, we've established there are no "pure" communist examples) leaders have oppressed their people, like Stalin, Pol Pot if i'm not mistaken, Mao Zetong, and Ho Chi Minh?[/b]This is a good point, but irrelevant. (Again if you had have done a search, this thread would have been unnecessary.) Anarchists like my self do not want a party to be the "vanguard" of the revolution. We want an anarchy, not yet another government, especially not one that claims to be ruling for the people.


Hool
How come there's no peaceful way to bring about communism? Because the people in power do not want to give it up. They have the great life, they have lots of wealth, they have people they can boss about and so on. They do not want to lose that.

Similarly the slave owners did not want to lose their slaves, so they fought against freeing the slaves.


I would prefer a non-violent revolution, I just do not see it as likely. After all the state uses violence everyday, why would it not use it on a larger scale?

[VenceremosRed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 03:12 AM
Though the last topic was a little stupid even i'll admit, there's a few questions i want answered if anybody's up for it. I'm trying to learn so don't bother insulting me.

Suppose communism was brought to the U.S., in a few generations, what's the motivation going to be for me to be a doctor when i can repair refridgerators and get the same pay?

Essentially, once in place, doesn't the communist party in itself become a beorgeosie, so far from what i have seen as far as history, most if not all communist (yes, we've established there are no "pure" communist examples) leaders have oppressed their people, like Stalin, Pol Pot if i'm not mistaken, Mao Zetong, and Ho Chi Minh?

How come there's no peaceful way to bring about communism? Even in other poor countries, case in point El Salvador where i admit it would help my country, people fought it adamently (i will admit the FMLN committed 10 times less war crimes/attrocities)

Those are a few for now i'm sure i'll think of more. Are any of you familiar with the FMLN or Farabundo Marti?
Communism is never, and can not be "introduced".

It's a development of abolishing classes, and it really can't happen just in the U.S. - it has to be international.

It's won by revolution.

Secondly, at the development of communism - there is no money. People do not exchange their labor for cash any longer. Their labor contributes to the good of humanity, and their own labor sustains themselves. (From each according to their needs).

Thirdly, Ho Chi Minh and Mao did not oppress/exploit people. They were widely and popularly supported all over the world as liberators (ie the Black Panthers).

[colonelguppy]

thats just semantics though, obviously the level that "their labor supports them" is the equilent of pay.

if you are going to be supported the same as a doctor as say a feild worker or maybe a clerk, then its a serious disincentive to take the time to become a doctor.

[Vinny Rafarino]

thats just semantics though, obviously the level that "their labor supports them" is the equilent of pay.

if you are going to be supported the same as a doctor as say a feild worker or maybe a clerk, then its a serious disincentive to take the time to become a doctor.

How quaint.

Even though were talking about a society were the monetary system has been abolished and technology, society and entertainment exists for the use of all you still feel that you deserve "more" because you think your job is more important.

So what do you want to do about it?

How about an individual that you deem a "lesser" can only go to the pub you like 5 nights a week while you can go 7.

Happy now?

Be careful now jack, the people may be convinced that the field worker is directly responsible for feeding millions of people and therefore deemed more important to society than "another doctor"; shit jack, you could find yourself forceed to stay at home and flog yourself 3 nights a week. :lol:

Get it though your head, we're beyond individual elitism. We no longer "live" to work for rewards as our rewards are universal.

P.S.

Any doctor that feels he is getting the "shit end of the stick" because he has to share the the fruits of a Communist society with everyone else is more than free to pick up a mop and start "swabbin' the deck", matey.

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 04:02 PM
if you are going to be supported the same as a doctor as say a feild worker or maybe a clerk, then its a serious disincentive to take the time to become a doctor.
Thats silly. And its wrong.

In a society without money, and for the benefit of everyone, people would be able to explore their education and interests because its something they want to do, not have to do. There are people who truly want to help others and to become doctors, and those people would rise up to be doctors in a communist society. Some people want to do it, the time taken is very much worth it to them.

[colonelguppy]

what does any of this have to do with my claim that equal support is a disincentive to higher acheivement?


How quaint.

Even though were talking about a society were the monetary system has been abolished and technology, society and entertainment exists for the use of all you still feel that you deserve "more" because you think your job is more important.

no i would deserve more because it requires harder work and stress more, so fewer people are willing to/are able to do it, thus making my labor more relatively valuable.


So what do you want to do about it?

How about an individual that you deem a "lesser" can only go to the pub you like 5 nights a week while you can go 7.

Happy now?

i don't really care as i don't own any pubs so its not my decision. i do have a tendency to encourage as many people to drink as much as possible though.


Be careful now jack, the people may be convinced that the field worker is directly responsible for feeding millions of people and therefore deemed more important to society than "another doctor"; shit jack, you could find yourself forceed to stay at home and flog yourself 3 nights a week. :lol:

their collective vlaue is high, however because there is so many of them and they are easy to find and train it makes their individual value low.


Get it though your head, we're beyond individual elitism. We no longer "live" to work for rewards as our rewards are universal.

no they aren't rewards are finite, and pretending like each job in society is equal is bullshit.


P.S.

Any doctor that feels he is getting the "shit end of the stick" because he has to share the the fruits of a Communist society with everyone else is more than free to pick up a mop and start "swabbin' the deck", matey.

why would they do that when their skills are much better emplyed in medicine and there are a million other people who are apt at "deck swabbin'"?

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by MeetingPeopleIsEasy+Sep 26 2006, 04:25 PM--> (MeetingPeopleIsEasy @ Sep 26 2006, 04:25 PM)
[email protected] 26 2006, 04:02 PM
if you are going to be supported the same as a doctor as say a feild worker or maybe a clerk, then its a serious disincentive to take the time to become a doctor.
Thats silly. And its wrong.

In a society without money, and for the benefit of everyone, people would be able to explore their education and interests because its something they want to do, not have to do. There are people who truly want to help others and to become doctors, and those people would rise up to be doctors in a communist society. Some people want to do it, the time taken is very much worth it to them. [/b]
i din't say that nobody would, i said that it is a serious disincentive to by taking away one of the many incentives to become a skilled labor. there would be many who would analyze the cost/benefit of the situation and turn away.

and what about jobs that are both high in work and stress but low in personal satisfaction?

[Avtomatov]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 08:02 PM
thats just semantics though, obviously the level that "their labor supports them" is the equilent of pay.

if you are going to be supported the same as a doctor as say a feild worker or maybe a clerk, then its a serious disincentive to take the time to become a doctor.
People dont want to go to school for a long time cuz it costs money and they dont get paid if they dont work. Thats capitalism for you. People will have no problem going to school for a long time in communism.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by Avtomatov+Sep 26 2006, 05:45 PM--> (Avtomatov @ Sep 26 2006, 05:45 PM)
[email protected] 26 2006, 08:02 PM
thats just semantics though, obviously the level that "their labor supports them" is the equilent of pay.

if you are going to be supported the same as a doctor as say a feild worker or maybe a clerk, then its a serious disincentive to take the time to become a doctor.
People dont want to go to school for a long time cuz it costs money and they dont get paid if they dont work. Thats capitalism for you. People will have no problem going to school for a long time in communism. [/b]
except that its pointless.

[Avtomatov]

Originally posted by colonelguppy+Sep 26 2006, 11:18 PM--> (colonelguppy @ Sep 26 2006, 11:18 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 05:45 PM

[email protected] 26 2006, 08:02 PM
thats just semantics though, obviously the level that "their labor supports them" is the equilent of pay.

if you are going to be supported the same as a doctor as say a feild worker or maybe a clerk, then its a serious disincentive to take the time to become a doctor.
People dont want to go to school for a long time cuz it costs money and they dont get paid if they dont work. Thats capitalism for you. People will have no problem going to school for a long time in communism.
except that its pointless. [/b]
Whats your idea of pointless? Is it something that doesnt make you money? There are more important things in life then money. There has been, in other cultures throughout time, things which were valued more then life itself. Like in japan, they had honour. Capitalism is what has created people like you, who only care about commodities.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Originally posted by colonelguppy+Sep 26 2006, 11:18 PM--> (colonelguppy @ Sep 26 2006, 11:18 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 05:45 PM

[email protected] 26 2006, 08:02 PM
thats just semantics though, obviously the level that "their labor supports them" is the equilent of pay.

if you are going to be supported the same as a doctor as say a feild worker or maybe a clerk, then its a serious disincentive to take the time to become a doctor.
People dont want to go to school for a long time cuz it costs money and they dont get paid if they dont work. Thats capitalism for you. People will have no problem going to school for a long time in communism.
except that its pointless. [/b]
It gives you a new skill. If anything, it has more of a point than repairing refrigerators.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by Avtomatov+Sep 26 2006, 06:34 PM--> (Avtomatov @ Sep 26 2006, 06:34 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 05:45 PM

[email protected] 26 2006, 08:02 PM
thats just semantics though, obviously the level that "their labor supports them" is the equilent of pay.

if you are going to be supported the same as a doctor as say a feild worker or maybe a clerk, then its a serious disincentive to take the time to become a doctor.
People dont want to go to school for a long time cuz it costs money and they dont get paid if they dont work. Thats capitalism for you. People will have no problem going to school for a long time in communism.
except that its pointless.
Whats your idea of pointless? Is it something that doesnt make you money? There are more important things in life then money. There has been, in other cultures throughout time, things which were valued more then life itself. Like in japan, they had honour. Capitalism is what has created people like you, who only care about commodities. [/b]
i didn't say no one would do it, but many would be discouraged from entering such fields. and yes, i'm sure everyone would become the perfect altruist after the revolution :rolleyes:


It gives you a new skill. If anything, it has more of a point than repairing refrigerators.

a valueless skill

[Janus]

a valueless skill
You're claiming that refrigerators aren't important?


there would be many who would analyze the cost/benefit of the situation and turn away.
And there are those who will be attracted to the job regardless. Take your physician example; people will be attracted to it because of the greater prestige involved with the work.

[Avtomatov]

I think Hool left...

[Lenin's Law]

The perfect response to this bourgeois nonsense would be Cuba.

Yes for all its flaws and mistakes, it nevertheless has produced more doctors than just about any of its neighbors and is a world leader in medicine and research. Cuba actually sends its doctors all over the world, to capitalist countries where one would think (if one thought like a bourgeois) that there would be no shortage given their monetary incentives.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by Vinny [email protected] 26 2006, 09:02 PM

thats just semantics though, obviously the level that "their labor supports them" is the equilent of pay.

if you are going to be supported the same as a doctor as say a feild worker or maybe a clerk, then its a serious disincentive to take the time to become a doctor.

How quaint.

Even though were talking about a society were the monetary system has been abolished and technology, society and entertainment exists for the use of all you still feel that you deserve "more" because you think your job is more important.

So what do you want to do about it?

How about an individual that you deem a "lesser" can only go to the pub you like 5 nights a week while you can go 7.

Happy now?

Be careful now jack, the people may be convinced that the field worker is directly responsible for feeding millions of people and therefore deemed more important to society than "another doctor"; shit jack, you could find yourself forceed to stay at home and flog yourself 3 nights a week. :lol:

Get it though your head, we're beyond individual elitism. We no longer "live" to work for rewards as our rewards are universal.

P.S.

Any doctor that feels he is getting the "shit end of the stick" because he has to share the the fruits of a Communist society with everyone else is more than free to pick up a mop and start "swabbin' the deck", matey.
Maybe the trained field worker is more important. After all, one can live without seeing a doctor; cant live without food.

Of course, being a trained doctor is somewhat more complicated than growing corn. Perhaps people will spend all those years of study and practice for the good of society.

But as usual, the fantasy of socialism is never far... Another thread where the dream is that one wakes up to a socialist world magically created overnight.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Confused Little Boy
But as usual, the fantasy of socialism is never far... Another thread where the dream is that one wakes up to a socialist world magically created overnight.

This is why I don't like talking with under-educated or in same cases just plain dumb supporters of Capitalism.

Look buddy-boy, learn the difference between Socialism and Communism and then check back with me.

In this case we were talking about Communism.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 03:12 AM
Suppose communism was brought to the U.S., in a few generations, what's the motivation going to be for me to be a doctor when i can repair refridgerators and get the same pay?

You wont get pay. Money will be abolished and so will 'work'



Essentially, once in place, doesn't the communist party in itself become a beorgeosie,

There wont be a communist party.


How come there's no peaceful way to bring about communism?

Because the state use violence to repress us.

[colonelguppy]

a valueless skill
You're claiming that refrigerators aren't important?

no, i'm claiming that the relative value that cleaning refrigerators gets you isn't any greater than anything else.


And there are those who will be attracted to the job regardless. Take your physician example; people will be attracted to it because of the greater prestige involved with the work.

yeah but how many will do this? will those numbers be able to meet communal demand? or what about jobs that are incredibly hard and have low prestige/personal satisfaction?

[Hool]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 04:17 AM
I think Hool left...
No Avtomatov, i'm here. I've been reading this and other threads and my view on communism is no longer bad, i'm still a capitalist because what i want to do with my life couldn't be accomplished through communism.

[Comrade Doug]

You work for the good of others. You work for yourself. Your motivation will be your paycheck. Just as it is now. Except, theres no people trying to decide wheter to buy antibiotics or food.

The biggest myth about socialism is that everyone is equal. "From each according to his need to each according to his ability."

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Hool+Sep 27 2006, 08:49 PM--> (Hool @ Sep 27 2006, 08:49 PM)
[email protected] 27 2006, 04:17 AM
I think Hool left...
No Avtomatov, i'm here. I've been reading this and other threads and my view on communism is no longer bad, i'm still a capitalist because what i want to do with my life couldn't be accomplished through communism. [/b]
And what exactly is that?

[Hool]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+Sep 27 2006, 08:56 PM--> (Jazzratt @ Sep 27 2006, 08:56 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 08:49 PM

[email protected] 27 2006, 04:17 AM
I think Hool left...
No Avtomatov, i'm here. I've been reading this and other threads and my view on communism is no longer bad, i'm still a capitalist because what i want to do with my life couldn't be accomplished through communism.
And what exactly is that? [/b]
To help the people of El Salvador

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Hool+Sep 27 2006, 09:07 PM--> (Hool @ Sep 27 2006, 09:07 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 08:49 PM

[email protected] 27 2006, 04:17 AM
I think Hool left...
No Avtomatov, i'm here. I've been reading this and other threads and my view on communism is no longer bad, i'm still a capitalist because what i want to do with my life couldn't be accomplished through communism.
And what exactly is that?
To help the people of El Salvador [/b]
Which preculdes supporting communism because?

[Hool]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+Sep 27 2006, 09:09 PM--> (Jazzratt @ Sep 27 2006, 09:09 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 08:49 PM

[email protected] 27 2006, 04:17 AM
I think Hool left...
No Avtomatov, i'm here. I've been reading this and other threads and my view on communism is no longer bad, i'm still a capitalist because what i want to do with my life couldn't be accomplished through communism.
And what exactly is that?
To help the people of El Salvador
Which preculdes supporting communism because? [/b]
Because i don't know how else i can help them without using money that communism would abolish.

[Janus]

There are much better ways to help then just giving off money.

[Hool]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 09:13 PM
There are much better ways to help then just giving off money.
I wasn't going to just give them money, that's a major problem there because family from the U.S. send them money and they don't have to work, they get lazy.

I meant spending money to help fund projects like schools, clean water, food, stuff like that.

[Jazzratt]

You wouldn't need to give them money for that kind of stuff if capitalism was taken from the equation.

[Sentinel]

I meant spending money to help fund projects like schools, clean water, food, stuff like that.

Why not support local groups in El Salvador that work for a revolutionary change in order to bring those things to the salvadorean people?

Those would be the communists btw. :)

(Edited to correct the spelling and add this:)

Nice to see browsing our forums has begun to change your views on communism.

[Cryotank Screams]

Suppose communism was brought to the U.S., in a few generations, what's the motivation going to be for me to be a doctor when i can repair refridgerators and get the same pay?

There in lies the beauty of Communism, you can be what you want without worrying about payment, if you want to be a doctor, you can receive all the training you need and become a doctor, same with any other profession, society will no longer be driven by monopoly money, but by will.


Essentially, once in place, doesn't the communist party in itself become a beorgeosie, so far from what i have seen as far as history, most if not all communist (yes, we've established there are no "pure" communist examples) leaders have oppressed their people, like Stalin, Pol Pot if i'm not mistaken, Mao Zetong, and Ho Chi Minh?

Bourgeoisie* Mao Tse-Tung*

No, none of the Communist leaders of old were bourgeoisie, the bourgeoisie are the ruling class, in Communism there is no class hence they were not bourgeoisie, and any bourgeoisie influence was eradicated.

See the "aggravation of the class struggle along with the development of socialism," theory embraced by both Mao and Stalin.

[Hool]

Talking to you guys definately chagned my views on communism, most of the things i hear about it talk about it like merely the word is a curse.

They tried to bring about communism in El Salvador starting in the early 80's but they were smashed by U.S. funded/trained death sqauds who ravaged the country, they would fire artillery into civilians if it meant killing the communists, a friend of my mothers was killed just for being the girlfriend of a communist higher-up. Communism there will never be possible but it's what the country needs whether i support communism or not, 98% of the land is controlled my 4% of the population.

[Sentinel]

Communism there will never be possible

I admittedly haven't studied the particular situation in ES much. But there is a new kind of cooperation and solidarity between leftist and socialist governments and organisations going on latin america, the mutual aid between Venezuela and Cuba being the prime example.

The oil based wealth of Venezuela in the hands of the bolivarian revolution has created whole new conditions and opportunities for the struggle in that part of the world.. All this must be huge source of inspiration for the left throughout the continent.

So, you never know..

The road to communism is long from there, of course, but these are steps in the right direction.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Suppose communism was brought to the U.S., in a few generations, what's the motivation going to be for me to be a doctor when i can repair refridgerators and get the same pay?

Well if you actually ever decided you wanted to be a doctor, it would be because it interested you, not because of the pay. You can ask any doctor whether or not he does his job for the paycheck and they'll most likely say that they do it because they like helping people.

In cuba, even though it's not communist, it is semi-socialist and they actually have the problem of having to many doctors. And these doctors are some of the best in the world. Many travel all over the world. In Latin America, doctors have offered free corrective eye surgery to working class people. In Africa, doctors train classes of doctors, and during Hurricane Katrina, it was not Fema or the US government who were the first to respond, It was Cuba, who offered 4000 doctors with supplies to help the people. The US government turned them down as 7 days later, they themselves were planning to come and aid the people of New Orleans.

Why is there a surplus of doctors in cuba? Well I don't know but I assume it's because the cuban people take advantage of the fact that they are offered free and quality education through the PhD level and are completely and utterly free to pursue their passions. While they study, the community pays for their education, food, and shelter which doesn't happen anywhere else save Sweden.


Essentially, once in place, doesn't the communist party in itself become a beorgeosie?

Well not really. Who are the people in the Communist Party? The workers! How are they in there? Through the process of democratic system. Ultimately, if a party official is taking advantage of the system, he will be replaced through electoral process. And this happened in Russia until about 1931 when worker power was stripped from the worker councils.


How come there's no peaceful way to bring about communism?

Because a ideology of such radical change cannot come through "working within the system". Major changes are always veto'd or voted out and socialist and communist politicians who have been elected into parliaments and congresses often compromise and simply becom liberal democrats. Revolutions are the only real way to bring a truly socialist state. And usually the ruling class will resist with all there power, ie fire on civilians, burn sympathizer villages, insitute marital law, etc..

[Hool]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 09:21 PM
You wouldn't need to give them money for that kind of stuff if capitalism was taken from the equation.
Good points and discussion, a couple of specific things i need to point out though.

For the quote, the problem with instituting communism in ES is that there really isn't much to work with. Even if it became communist there isn't very much of anything to spread amongst the people.

Sorry for the mispelling of Mao and bourgeoisie, i knew they were wrong i just think putting "(sp?)" after words is stupid.