ETA

[Phalanx]

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5375834.stm)

I'm not sure whether this is an official statement or a breakaway group from ETA. If they do relaunch their armed campaign, I hope the targets will be police and the Spanish ruling class, not civilians.

[The Grey Blur]

:blink:

Weird...I was given an Euskal Herria top today

...coincidence?

[Janus]

I think this is the actual ETA. A break-off faction would've announced itself.


I hope the targets will be police and the Spanish ruling class, not civilians
It's really difficult to make sure that no civilians are hurt in a war especially when bombs are used in public areas.

[bcbm]

ETA stopped using the sort of massive explosives that killed civillians and has been good about warnings out for the past few years.

With shootings, though, their track record is a bit sketchy. Lots of low-level and ultimately insignificant targets have been executed for relatively minor "crimes."

It'll be interesting to see how this develops.

[Organic Revolution]

The problem in my mind is that the ETA are nationalists... So i dont know to support them or not.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Organic [email protected] 24 2006, 12:54 PM
The problem in my mind is that the ETA are nationalists... So i dont know to support them or not.
They are, or at least historically have been, Marxist-Leninists. I think the larger problem is their clinging to the armed party, which seems to have been an abject failure just about everywhere.

[Janus]

and has been good about warnings out for the past few years.
I hear that the whole warning thing hasn't worked out sometimes which leads to the civilian and children casualties.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 01:27 PM

and has been good about warnings out for the past few years.
I hear that the whole warning thing hasn't worked out sometimes which leads to the civilian and children casualties.
Could be. I'd only heard of a cop getting hurt, but I haven't been following it that closely. The attacks leading up to the cease-fire went off without a hitch, more or less.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by Janus
It's really difficult to make sure that no civilians are hurt in a war especially when bombs are used in public areas.

Your starting to sound like an IDF PR rep

[Janus]

Your starting to sound like an IDF PR rep
:blink: Ok...

I was simply stating the truth.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 24 2006, 06:59 PM
I think the larger problem is their clinging to the armed party, which seems to have been an abject failure just about everywhere.
I completely agree. History has shown that armed struggle in the Basque country hasn't brought about independence. Tactics that may have otherwise proved successful in Palestine or the Six Counties won't necessarily work for the Basques.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Tatanka Iyotank+Sep 24 2006, 04:20 PM--> (Tatanka Iyotank @ Sep 24 2006, 04:20 PM)
black banner black [email protected] 24 2006, 06:59 PM
I think the larger problem is their clinging to the armed party, which seems to have been an abject failure just about everywhere.
I completely agree. History has shown that armed struggle in the Basque country hasn't brought about independence. Tactics that may have otherwise proved successful in Palestine or the Six Counties won't necessarily work for the Basques. [/b]
I don't think armed parties have proved particularly successful anywhere.

[Seven Stars]

Good news! Victory to the ETA! Glad to hear they will not go the way of the provos and disarm.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 05:58 PM
Good news! Victory to the ETA! Glad to hear they will not go the way of the provos and disarm.
What, so they can shoot more low-level politicians and bomb some random shit? I think it'd be better to turn the main thrust of the struggle over to the Basque National Liberation Movement and leave the armed party in the dustbin of history where it belongs. Liberation will come through mass action, not armed specialists.

[karmaradical]

I like ETA. They are socialist, and fought hard against the fascists.

The Basque independance movement is still important. Basques dont have as many freedoms as average Spaniards.

I thought it was fun how they said they were going to stop using violence, and then took it back. Basques are fun. If the Basque country wasnt so fucking Catholic, maybe the ETA would have more power.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Good news! Victory to the ETA! Glad to hear they will not go the way of the provos and disarm.

I don't think the spanish people in general share your sentiment.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by black banner black gun+Sep 24 2006, 11:08 PM--> (black banner black gun @ Sep 24 2006, 11:08 PM)
Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 24 2006, 04:20 PM

black banner black [email protected] 24 2006, 06:59 PM
I think the larger problem is their clinging to the armed party, which seems to have been an abject failure just about everywhere.
I completely agree. History has shown that armed struggle in the Basque country hasn't brought about independence. Tactics that may have otherwise proved successful in Palestine or the Six Counties won't necessarily work for the Basques.
I don't think armed parties have proved particularly successful anywhere. [/b]
Quoted for truth


I don't think the spanish people in general share your sentiment
But then again we're talking about Basques, not Spaniards


Good news! Victory to the ETA! Glad to hear they will not go the way of the provos and disarm
Because it's much better to continue on in an unpopular, unwinnable struggle that has already cost countless lives... :rolleyes:

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 07:57 PM
I like ETA. They are socialist, and fought hard against the fascists.
Indeed, ETA was instrumental in the downfall of the Spanish fascists. However, some 30 years have passed since then and while the Basques haven't had a very good time with the democratic farce, the days of armed parties are gone. Catalonia has made a great deal of headway on gaining independence, and I think Euskal Herria could fare just as well or better, given the strength and activity of the BNLM.

[Herman]

Good news! Victory to the ETA! Glad to hear they will not go the way of the provos and disarm.

You fool. These people have targeted working class men and women before if you didn't know. It's not good news. I'm Spanish and I seriously dislike such attittude knowing that family members have been affected by this.


I like ETA. They are socialist, and fought hard against the fascists.

ETA is not socialist. They stopped being so and in fact made it official during the 90's. They're now nationalist separatists with no defined political-economic system. If they were still marxist-leninists they would understand the importance of a centralised, organized vanguard party rather than the use of terrorism (something which Bakunin and Lenin saw as counter-revolutionary).
What do you mean 'they fought hard against the facists'? What are you talking about? The only thing they did was use terrorism to kill a few people. These people haven't even killed more than 500 people in their whole history. They're underfunded, disorganized and about to be eliminated as they should be.


I don't think the spanish people in general share your sentiment.

You're quite right.


But then again we're talking about Basques, not Spaniards

The Basque country is in Spanish territory so it concerns us all. Besides, the majority of the basque people do not support ETA and are not for independence.


Indeed, ETA was instrumental in the downfall of the Spanish fascists.

Oh please, tell me how. I remind you that ETA did not bring down Franco's dictatorship. He died of age and that was it. Their violence did nothing to help bring down the regime. In fact, they simply made it more repressive (their acts cost the lives of many students who had nothing to do with it).

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 01:57 AM
I like ETA. They are socialist, and fought hard against the fascists.

The Basque independance movement is still important. Basques dont have as many freedoms as average Spaniards.

I thought it was fun how they said they were going to stop using violence, and then took it back. Basques are fun. If the Basque country wasnt so fucking Catholic, maybe the ETA would have more power.
I agree, but ETA have a lot of very strong catholics members. Just like the IRA over here, religion dosent come into their brand of warfare.

ETA have returned to violence as the spanish goverment banned its political party "batusuna" and really didnt let them have too much of a say. So Its time to get spanish attention once again.

I heard rumours and stirring about a week ago that plans to re-arm were underway but didnt take too much notice at the time. We just gotta see what happens comrades.

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 11:58 PM
Good news! Victory to the ETA! Glad to hear they will not go the way of the provos and disarm.
disarm? ;)

There are a still a few tonnes of the wepons in Provo ownage.

[Enragé]

Armed action is only succesful when its the spearhead of a large mass movement, or simply the entire mass movement engaging in armed struggle.

In any other situation, it only leads to alienation from the masses.

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 06:44 PM
Armed action is only succesful when its the spearhead of a large mass movement, or simply the entire mass movement engaging in armed struggle.

Not true. When Ireland achieved its Independance the old IRA had only 1% of the populations support and still caused enough trouble to eventually succeed to an extent.

[Ander]

As the resident Basque here, I have to say I support ETA's struggle. However, I am concerned about their mode of operation. There is a fine line between terrorist and freedom fighter, ETA needs to watch its step.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by pastradamus+Sep 25 2006, 07:16 PM--> (pastradamus @ Sep 25 2006, 07:16 PM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 06:44 PM
Armed action is only succesful when its the spearhead of a large mass movement, or simply the entire mass movement engaging in armed struggle.

Not true. When Ireland achieved its Independance the old IRA had only 1% of the populations support and still caused enough trouble to eventually succeed to an extent. [/b]
1%?

i highly doubt that

the old IRA (i assume we're talking 1917-1921) was quite large, and did have alot of support.

If you're talking actual active militants, ok, or those supporting the easter rebellion at the start, maybe, but people generally wanting the british to fuck off, that was a lot more.

[Makartxo]

ETA is not socialist. They stopped being so and in fact made it official during the 90's. They're now nationalist separatists with no defined political-economic system.

False.


What do you mean 'they fought hard against the facists'? What are you talking about? The only thing they did was use terrorism to kill a few people. These people haven't even killed more than 500 people in their whole history. They're underfunded, disorganized and about to be eliminated as they should be.

Veeeery false.


In fact, they simply made it more repressive (their acts cost the lives of many students who had nothing to do with it).

WTF are you talking about???

PD: Jello, nongoa zira?

[The Grey Blur]

the old IRA (i assume we're talking 1917-1921) was quite large, and did have alot of support.
Nope, I was of this opinion as well then my parents and grandparents informed me that the War of Independence was deeply unpopular apart from in West Cork and some other isolated areas.

[bcbm]

ETA is not socialist. They stopped being so and in fact made it official during the 90's. They're now nationalist separatists with no defined political-economic system.

The statement made in the article at the beginning of this thread contradicts your assertion. The split into ETA-M and ETA-PM was largely over this issue, but both sides maintained a commitment to socialism, even in the vaguest sense.


Oh please, tell me how. I remind you that ETA did not bring down Franco's dictatorship. He died of age and that was it. Their violence did nothing to help bring down the regime.

Actually, ETA was pivotal in the quick demise of the fascist regime. Prior to Franco's death, he'd prepared a successor who was a high level member of the state. I forget his name, but the ETA called him "Ogro." In any case, ETA murdered him with a good sized bomb, seriously damaging any possibility of continuing fascism.


In fact, they simply made it more repressive (their acts cost the lives of many students who had nothing to do with it).

Fascism shouldn't be fought because the state might crack down on people who are not neccessarily involved? :unsure:

----


However, I am concerned about their mode of operation. There is a fine line between terrorist and freedom fighter, ETA needs to watch its step.

ETA crossed that line ages ago. The armed party is a relic of history and new modes of struggle need to be adopted. I think the kale borroka shows more promise than bombs or guns, especially when action is taken outside of a larger movement.

[Herman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 08:43 PM

ETA is not socialist. They stopped being so and in fact made it official during the 90's. They're now nationalist separatists with no defined political-economic system.

False.


What do you mean 'they fought hard against the facists'? What are you talking about? The only thing they did was use terrorism to kill a few people. These people haven't even killed more than 500 people in their whole history. They're underfunded, disorganized and about to be eliminated as they should be.

Veeeery false.


In fact, they simply made it more repressive (their acts cost the lives of many students who had nothing to do with it).

WTF are you talking about???

PD: Jello, nongoa zira?
I suppose you have some sort of proper argument, otherwise I'll ignore what you just said.


The statement made in the article at the beginning of this thread contradicts your assertion. The split into ETA-M and ETA-PM was largely over this issue, but both sides maintained a commitment to socialism, even in the vaguest sense.

Their actions are against socialism, therefore they are not socialists.


Actually, ETA was pivotal in the quick demise of the fascist regime. Prior to Franco's death, he'd prepared a successor who was a high level member of the state. I forget his name, but the ETA called him "Ogro." In any case, ETA murdered him with a good sized bomb, seriously damaging any possibility of continuing fascism.

The dictatorship would have eventually collapsed anyway.


Fascism shouldn't be fought because the state might crack down on people who are not neccessarily involved?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be fought. However, terrorism is counter-revolutionary and something which any socialist knows.

Look, you don't live in Spain, so you don't know how it is. And you don't have the right information about them either.

[bcbm]

Their actions are against socialism, therefore they are not socialists.

This is a pretty cheap cop-out. Socialism is simply the empowered working class assuming state control (more or less). Actions taken to get to this point are up for debate, and I think its absurd to say they are not coming from a ML or socialist background.


The dictatorship would have eventually collapsed anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. Either way, ETA's assassination of Blanco hastened it's collapse. Even unsympathetic commentators have conceded to that.


I'm not saying it shouldn't be fought. However, terrorism is counter-revolutionary and something which any socialist knows.

What constitutes terrorism (or rather, whether it is a bad thing), especially under a fascist state, is certainly open to debate. Were resistance fighters throughout Europe "terrorists" for assassinating agents of the Nazi occupation? I agree that indiscriminate bombing and murder is not a revolutionary tactic, but a more focused campaign can be very effective under certain conditions.


Look, you don't live in Spain, so you don't know how it is. And you don't have the right information about them either.

I don't need to live in Spain to be familiar with its history and its various political factions (you're using a logical fallacy); indeed, I have studied the subject a great deal. And everything I am saying is verified in a number of sources, would you like me to list them?

And just to be clear, I am not saying ETA is correct or should exist: the armed party has been an abject failure. That doesn't mean everything the organization has ever done is automatically wrong.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by RedHerman+Sep 25 2006, 10:02 PM--> (RedHerman @ Sep 25 2006, 10:02 PM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 08:43 PM

ETA is not socialist. They stopped being so and in fact made it official during the 90's. They're now nationalist separatists with no defined political-economic system.

False.


What do you mean 'they fought hard against the facists'? What are you talking about? The only thing they did was use terrorism to kill a few people. These people haven't even killed more than 500 people in their whole history. They're underfunded, disorganized and about to be eliminated as they should be.

Veeeery false.


In fact, they simply made it more repressive (their acts cost the lives of many students who had nothing to do with it).

WTF are you talking about???

PD: Jello, nongoa zira?
I suppose you have some sort of proper argument, otherwise I'll ignore what you just said. [/b]
I'd also like to read a proper argument from Makartxo

[Ander]

Originally posted by Makartxo+--> (Makartxo)PD: Jello, nongoa zira?[/b]

I only wish I spoke the language, my friend. That's what happens when you never live there and you are constantly moving around. English, Spanish, and Portuguese are good enough for me right now, but one day I definitely want to learn Basque.


black banner black gun
Actually, ETA was pivotal in the quick demise of the fascist regime. Prior to Franco's death, he'd prepared a successor who was a high level member of the state. I forget his name, but the ETA called him "Ogro." In any case, ETA murdered him with a good sized bomb, seriously damaging any possibility of continuing fascism.

That motherfucker's name is Carrero Blanco...a name I will never forget. It's such a great accomplishment by ETA, probably their most important.

I don't understand much of the anti-ETA attitudes here. Here is a leftist group who is willing to stand up and fight for what they believe, yet they are bad people? They have taken out several politicians and upper class assholes who only stand in the way of what we believe in. The civilian casualties that have occurred are certainly unfortunate and unacceptable and this is my only criticism. If more care is taken to leave innocent people out of the conflict, then fight on ETA!

Yes, they do have some nationalist tendencies, but I think they definitely have a good reason for them. Basque people have been oppressed for decades under Franco and other dictators and still remain part of Spain, a nation whose people have nothing to do with them! I don't know what sounds cozier than a socialist republic sandwiched in between Spain and France...

If you want to hear about oppression by Franco, ask my father and grandparents. My dad will tell you how he was forbidden to speak Basque in school or else he would be beaten. Cultural repression anyone?

[Seven Stars]

You trendy lefties make me laugh. Once again, a place where Revolution is happening, you are the fist to attack and condemn it. Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 01:34 AM
You trendy lefties make me laugh. Once again, a place where Revolution is happening, you are the fist to attack and condemn it. Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.
It's a legitimate criticism of ETA. They haven't brought the Basque homeland independence, and if they try to bring back the armed struggle, they'll be further away from their goals. Acting like a terrorist organization hasn't helped the cause either. The assassination of Luis Carrero Blanco was the only major progressive step they took.

[bcbm]

I don't understand much of the anti-ETA attitudes here. Here is a leftist group who is willing to stand up and fight for what they believe, yet they are bad people?

It is good to stand up and fight, but one also needs to consider what tactics will work best to achieve the goals one is fighting for. At this point, the minority armed party has proven to be a resolute failure. The path to victory lies in mass action of the organized under-classes, not a bunch of armed specialists leading the struggle from afar through spectacular violence.


They have taken out several politicians and upper class assholes who only stand in the way of what we believe in. The civilian casualties that have occurred are certainly unfortunate and unacceptable and this is my only criticism.

I'd say it is a fairly large criticism. Taking out low-level targets of little importance may be satisfying, but it makes for bad propaganda and ultimately doesn't gain the ETA much sympathy from the people they are trying to liberate, particularly when said targets are Basques.


If more care is taken to leave innocent people out of the conflict, then fight on ETA!

And achieve what?

---------------


You trendy lefties make me laugh. Once again, a place where Revolution is happening, you are the fist to attack and condemn it.

I don't think an extremely small minority engaging in ineffective and spectacular violent action qualifies as a revolution.


Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle

I fail to see how an unpopular minority organization engaging in futile armed actions without mass under class supporting action is effective.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 07:34 PM
You trendy lefties make me laugh. Once again, a place where Revolution is happening, you are the fist to attack and condemn it. Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.
The fact of the matter is that the ETA are authoritarian, vanguardist nationalists. I dont think, me as an anarchist, should be supporting the ETA when they support nationalism and the setting up of another state dictatorship.

[Makartxo]

Originally posted by RedHerman+Sep 25 2006, 10:02 PM--> (RedHerman @ Sep 25 2006, 10:02 PM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 08:43 PM

ETA is not socialist. They stopped being so and in fact made it official during the 90's. They're now nationalist separatists with no defined political-economic system.

False.


What do you mean 'they fought hard against the facists'? What are you talking about? The only thing they did was use terrorism to kill a few people. These people haven't even killed more than 500 people in their whole history. They're underfunded, disorganized and about to be eliminated as they should be.

Veeeery false.


In fact, they simply made it more repressive (their acts cost the lives of many students who had nothing to do with it).

WTF are you talking about???

PD: Jello, nongoa zira?
I suppose you have some sort of proper argument, otherwise I'll ignore what you just said.


The statement made in the article at the beginning of this thread contradicts your assertion. The split into ETA-M and ETA-PM was largely over this issue, but both sides maintained a commitment to socialism, even in the vaguest sense.

Their actions are against socialism, therefore they are not socialists.


Actually, ETA was pivotal in the quick demise of the fascist regime. Prior to Franco's death, he'd prepared a successor who was a high level member of the state. I forget his name, but the ETA called him "Ogro." In any case, ETA murdered him with a good sized bomb, seriously damaging any possibility of continuing fascism.

The dictatorship would have eventually collapsed anyway.


Fascism shouldn't be fought because the state might crack down on people who are not neccessarily involved?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be fought. However, terrorism is counter-revolutionary and something which any socialist knows.

Look, you don't live in Spain, so you don't know how it is. And you don't have the right information about them either.[/b]
First of all, my spoken/written english is very poor, so I find quite difficult to write in this language (I live in spanish and basque). ETA has never said that they're not socialists, so the first quote is just false. You said "and in fact [they] made it official during the 90's": unless you can find any statement that supports that idea, we must supose you're lying.

It`s really surprising when you say "These people haven't even killed more than 500 people in their whole history". All the fucking spanish media (that say, more or less, what you say about "evil ETA") are crying each day that ETA killed more than 800 people. It's really surprising what you say: would ETA be a better organization if they had killed more people?

And, when you wrote "In fact, they simply made it more repressive (their acts cost the lives of many students who had nothing to do with it)", I simply want to know who those "many students" were. Maybe you have discovered secret events about the last years of dictatorship, so, please, share them with us.

Last but not least: you say that your view is the proper one because you are spanish. Well, if you're spanish, I'm basque, and we've very different visions. Would you say that the only ones who can talk about PIRA, RIRA or CIRA are the middle english citizens?? It's really crazy, so it doesn't deserve an answer. Mind yourself if YOU have the right info about this, or you're just following spanish oligarchy's discurse.

I hope you all will understand what I'm saying, if not please tell me, I've said my english is horrible.

[Herman]

It`s really surprising when you say "These people haven't even killed more than 500 people in their whole history". All the fucking spanish media (that say, more or less, what you say about "evil ETA") are crying each day that ETA killed more than 800 people. It's really surprising what you say: would ETA be a better organization if they had killed more people?

With this I meant that they're not as effective as other major terrorist/nationalist organizations. If they had a better organization, better information and supply of equipment, they'd have done much more damage in less time.


And, when you wrote "In fact, they simply made it more repressive (their acts cost the lives of many students who had nothing to do with it)", I simply want to know who those "many students" were. Maybe you have discovered secret events about the last years of dictatorship, so, please, share them with us.

It was quite normal that the action taken by one would make others, suspected of socialist sympathies, be endangered of arrest and posibly execution.


Last but not least: you say that your view is the proper one because you are spanish. Well, if you're spanish, I'm basque, and we've very different visions. Would you say that the only ones who can talk about PIRA, RIRA or CIRA are the middle english citizens?? It's really crazy, so it doesn't deserve an answer. Mind yourself if YOU have the right info about this, or you're just following spanish oligarchy's discurse.

I'm not saying that it's proper because i'm Spanish, but because I've been directly affected by this. This is why I can say this about ETA. Their methods are nationalistic more than leftist, if they still have any of that. Their independence comes only once communism has been achieved, once the individual states have been decentralised.

[Ander]

I don't understand much of the anti-ETA attitudes here. Here is a leftist group who is willing to stand up and fight for what they believe, yet they are bad people?

It is good to stand up and fight, but one also needs to consider what tactics will work best to achieve the goals one is fighting for. At this point, the minority armed party has proven to be a resolute failure. The path to victory lies in mass action of the organized under-classes, not a bunch of armed specialists leading the struggle from afar through spectacular violence.

That's why there needs to be better communication and collaboration between all wings of the resistance, both armed and political. ETA needs to work closer with Batasuna and the other groups so that both armed revolt as well as mass action can work together.



They have taken out several politicians and upper class assholes who only stand in the way of what we believe in. The civilian casualties that have occurred are certainly unfortunate and unacceptable and this is my only criticism.

I'd say it is a fairly large criticism. Taking out low-level targets of little importance may be satisfying, but it makes for bad propaganda and ultimately doesn't gain the ETA much sympathy from the people they are trying to liberate, particularly when said targets are Basques.

Carrero Blanco was definitely not a low-level target. Other than that, most of their victims have not been very significant, I agree. That's why better planning must be made. Although killing right-wing politicians and members of various police/military forces isn't too bad either.

What does it matter if some of their victims are Basques? Not all Basques are going to stand together on this issue, religion is one problem that is still a large influence in the region. Taking out some ignorant Basque who will only stand in the way doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me, how about you?



If more care is taken to leave innocent people out of the conflict, then fight on ETA!

And achieve what?

The assassination of reactionary trash?


As for the nationalism of ETA, I don't think everyone is examining the circumstances of this particular struggle. The Basques don't have a state, they lack a nation. Whereas other groups fighting for the same purpose usually do so in established countries with borders, ETA and other Basque nationalists do not. The Basque people are part of a nation they have nothing to do with! Their languages are not related in the slightest, their cultures are different, their people are not the same! I generally do not have much like for nationalism, but this is an entirely different case. Once a Basque country is truly established, then will come the transition to a socialist state.

And as for any of you who are spitting out numbers and trying to tell everyone that there is little support for ETA, stop thinking with such narrow minds. How high is the percentage of people with any kind of revolutionary mindset in America? Canada? Australia? The list can keep going on and on. Add all the propaganda we hear from our imperialist governments and no wonder many people are afraid of associating themselves with ETA at all.

It's our twisted governments who call the shots on who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist, unfortunately.

[bcbm]

That's why there needs to be better communication and collaboration between all wings of the resistance, both armed and political. ETA needs to work closer with Batasuna and the other groups so that both armed revolt as well as mass action can work together.

But the armed struggle is accomplishing nothing and has been a vast failure for the Basque liberation movement. The mass movement may find the need to take some armed actions in the future, depending on circumstances, but a military wing is a dead-end and an historical relic.


Other than that, most of their victims have not been very significant, I agree. That's why better planning must be made. Although killing right-wing politicians and members of various police/military forces isn't too bad either.

I couldn't care less about some politicians, bosses and other shitjobs getting capped but I recognize that, as a tactic, it is ultimately useless. Political assassinations of this type don't work without a mass movement, and when a mass movement is present there is typically no need. The sensationalist nature of the violence also makes it very easy to be turned against the guerrilla: this has occurred notably in Germany and Italy.


What does it matter if some of their victims are Basques? Not all Basques are going to stand together on this issue, religion is one problem that is still a large influence in the region. Taking out some ignorant Basque who will only stand in the way doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me, how about you?

ETA has what, less than 10% support? That is a lot of "ignorant Basques who will only stand in the way" to murder. Liberation is, at this point, not going to be won by force of arms against the state.


... I wonder if anyone remembers when I had an ETA avatar. :unsure:

[Angry Young Man]

Originally posted by Organic [email protected] 24 2006, 06:54 PM
The problem in my mind is that the ETA are nationalists... So i dont know to support them or not.
Why is it people think that nationalism is a dirty right-wing eleven letter word? I thought Basque nationalism was about autonomy; the same with Ireland and Palestine. I thought they were about overthrowing the ruling class that invaded their territory and used it for themselves. James Connely was a nationalist, wasn't he? And I do believe he lectured on Marxism in NY. (btw before any smartarses comment, I know he wasn't Basque)

[The Grey Blur]

You defeat Imperialism by creating a Socialist solution, not through minority armed actions

"In our eyes, individual terror is inadmissible precisely because it belittles the role of the masses in their own consciousness, reconciles them to their powerlessness, and turns their eyes and hopes towards a great avenger and liberator who some day will come and accomplish his mission" - Leon Trotsky

[Ander]

That's why there needs to be better communication and collaboration between all wings of the resistance, both armed and political. ETA needs to work closer with Batasuna and the other groups so that both armed revolt as well as mass action can work together.

But the armed struggle is accomplishing nothing and has been a vast failure for the Basque liberation movement. The mass movement may find the need to take some armed actions in the future, depending on circumstances, but a military wing is a dead-end and an historical relic.

I don't think that armed actions should be completely thrown out the window, though I do think that ETA needs to seriously re-examine their mode of operation. As we have both stated, the majority of their victims have been insignificant and I think there should be some changes in that respect.

A major problem is that there isn't a mass movement to provide a core of support. That's why I stress the need for improved communication. I don't think that ETA will get very far by itself, but it should still exist and function, just not alone.



Other than that, most of their victims have not been very significant, I agree. That's why better planning must be made. Although killing right-wing politicians and members of various police/military forces isn't too bad either.

I couldn't care less about some politicians, bosses and other shitjobs getting capped but I recognize that, as a tactic, it is ultimately useless. Political assassinations of this type don't work without a mass movement, and when a mass movement is present there is typically no need. The sensationalist nature of the violence also makes it very easy to be turned against the guerrilla: this has occurred notably in Germany and Italy.

Ok, I agree with you.



What does it matter if some of their victims are Basques? Not all Basques are going to stand together on this issue, religion is one problem that is still a large influence in the region. Taking out some ignorant Basque who will only stand in the way doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me, how about you?

ETA has what, less than 10% support? That is a lot of "ignorant Basques who will only stand in the way" to murder. Liberation is, at this point, not going to be won by force of arms against the state.

It doesn't matter so much that ETA has support as it does Basque nationalism. The great majority of Basques favour some kind of autonomy or independence from Spain, all they need is more education. With Batasuna and ETA leading the way, this could be a situation worth watching and supporting.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 09:36 PM
It doesn't matter so much that ETA has support as it does Basque nationalism. The great majority of Basques favour some kind of autonomy or independence from Spain, all they need is more education. With Batasuna and ETA leading the way, this could be a situation worth watching and supporting.
I would be very interested in hearing a practical reason why Socialists should support Batasuna, who appear to simply be the Sinn Fein of the Basque country

[bcbm]

I don't think that armed actions should be completely thrown out the window, though I do think that ETA needs to seriously re-examine their mode of operation. As we have both stated, the majority of their victims have been insignificant and I think there should be some changes in that respect.

Why keep around an historical relic that is meaningless to the current political situation and detrimental to the movement as a whole? Continuing the absurdity of the armed party will only serve to keep the state in control of the situation. And if you're suggesting they move to more high-level targets, that would be even stupider than the low-level ones. Unfortunately most people currently buy into the democratic farce and the armed specialists have become obsolete.


A major problem is that there isn't a mass movement to provide a core of support. That's why I stress the need for improved communication. I don't think that ETA will get very far by itself, but it should still exist and function, just not alone.

You're still positioning the armed party at the forefront of the struggle, when it is the mass movement that should occupy that position. If armed actions of such a spectacular nature are needed, which they certainly won't be for some time, then the movement can use its own resources to undertake them. This makes it harder for the state to act against it and harder to criminalize the Basque struggle. ETA doesn't need to chat more, it needs to fade into history and the etarras should rejoin the movement as above-ground activists and build Basque class consciousness. It is already present among many (note Basque dockworker's struggles), and could easily be expanded. The armed party is deadweight holding the movement back.


The great majority of Basques favour some kind of autonomy or independence from Spain, all they need is more education. With Batasuna and ETA leading the way, this could be a situation worth watching and supporting.

You have it backwards. The movement should be autonomous and led by the under-classes within Basque society. ETA, and Batasuna really, should both be rejected. They, like so many nationalist and partisan gangsters of the past, only want to be in control of the situation and channel genuine mass anger and action into mere support for their programs and actions. This is detrimental to Basque, or anyone's, liberation as it reinforces the traditional capitalist spectator-actor relationship. Build under-class consciousness, not armed specialist spectacular struggle.

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 08:19 PM

i highly doubt that

the old IRA (i assume we're talking 1917-1921) was quite large, and did have alot of support.

If you're talking actual active militants, ok, or those supporting the easter rebellion at the start, maybe, but people generally wanting the british to fuck off, that was a lot more.
I know its kinda hard to digest, but its true. Its the biggest myth ever that the easter rising had popular support. It was composed of a few hard-core Militants that decided to take advantage of the UK in a vulnerable situation. Back then Irish people openly referred to themselves as being 'british'.

Its only when people saw the torture of the 1916 leaders that they began to change.
Even after that the IRA was still an underground movement and the PIRA back in the 1970's was probably larger than the old IRA of 1921 etc...

Social conditions are mostly whats responsible for the support the old IRA did get.

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 01:34 AM
Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.
So....Tell me all about the history of the IRA and I'll tell you all about what you dont know compánach na hEireann. ;)

[Seven Stars]

Originally posted by pastradamus+Sep 30 2006, 01:41 AM--> (pastradamus @ Sep 30 2006, 01:41 AM)
[email protected] 26 2006, 01:34 AM
Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.
So....Tell me all about the history of the IRA and I'll tell you all about what you dont know compánach na hEireann. ;) [/b]
yeah ur a fuckin expert sayin the IRA didn't have popular support durring the tan war! ur stupid d fuckin ****! and no shit the Easter Rising was only supported by an minority, thank you capt. fuckin obvious!!

you fuckin lefties need a fuckin life...leave ur pcs for 3 hrs and go and get laid! ur such fuckin losers its not even funny! ur nothing but middle class fuckin wankers who don't know shit...u think that some elite group of intelectuals will lead the revolution...ur so fuckin out of touch with the reall workin classs...get off ur fat bourgeois asses and do somethin...u middle class assholes...the real workin would just beat the living shit out of you!

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by Irish_Republican+Oct 1 2006, 06:27 AM--> (Irish_Republican @ Oct 1 2006, 06:27 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 01:41 AM

[email protected] 26 2006, 01:34 AM
Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.
So....Tell me all about the history of the IRA and I'll tell you all about what you dont know compánach na hEireann. ;)
yeah ur a fuckin expert sayin the IRA didn't have popular support durring the tan war! ur stupid d fuckin ****! and no shit the Easter Rising was only supported by an minority, thank you capt. fuckin obvious!!

you fuckin lefties need a fuckin life...leave ur pcs for 3 hrs and go and get laid! ur such fuckin losers its not even funny! ur nothing but middle class fuckin wankers who don't know shit...u think that some elite group of intelectuals will lead the revolution...ur so fuckin out of touch with the reall workin classs...get off ur fat bourgeois asses and do somethin...u middle class assholes...the real workin would just beat the living shit out of you! [/b]
Nice one :lol:

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Originally posted by Irish_Republican+Oct 1 2006, 06:27 AM--> (Irish_Republican @ Oct 1 2006, 06:27 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 01:41 AM

[email protected] 26 2006, 01:34 AM
Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.
So....Tell me all about the history of the IRA and I'll tell you all about what you dont know compánach na hEireann. ;)
yeah ur a fuckin expert sayin the IRA didn't have popular support durring the tan war! ur stupid d fuckin ****! and no shit the Easter Rising was only supported by an minority, thank you capt. fuckin obvious!!

you fuckin lefties need a fuckin life...leave ur pcs for 3 hrs and go and get laid! ur such fuckin losers its not even funny! ur nothing but middle class fuckin wankers who don't know shit...u think that some elite group of intelectuals will lead the revolution...ur so fuckin out of touch with the reall workin classs...get off ur fat bourgeois asses and do somethin...u middle class assholes...the real workin would just beat the living shit out of you! [/b]
You fail at logical debate.

[( R )evolution]

I support ETA and the Basque indepeantant movment. ETA needs to rethink there plans to getting indepeance but at least they are doing something. Also, I was under the imperssion that ETA tries it bests not to kill innocent civilans and it when it happens it is very unusal, dont they usually kill Judges and Politicans? And then Blanco :) :) And I know at least 5 Basque people and they all support ETA, so I am assuming they have some popular support.