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Anarchist Freedom
24th September 2006, 06:14
How can we acheive our goal of a anti capitalist society? I have been pondering this question with much thought. It confuses me as to how we can plan to acheive this, When we never seem to do anything. Its not that we arent getting to our goals its that I
feel that we have so many problems with infighting and disagreements that never get anything done. Our ideologies clash more then we do with the real problem the capitalists. Our goal has become ideological and not enough working together to get what we know has to be done. Just because a Marxist disagrees with a trot doesnt mean that they cant work together. Same for anarchists, We focus too much on our ideology then we do anti capitalism.

LoneRed
24th September 2006, 08:32
well on your post i see like the word anarchist, or ism like 15 times, ?

BreadBros
24th September 2006, 11:54
Thats because the revolutionary period of late capitalism is barely beginning in the Western world. Most of us here on this board are the "vanguard" (as in, were among the first proles to begin developing practical Marxist thought in an advanced capitalist state, not as in the Leninist definition) of the new society. Theres considerable in-fighting because the path is not clear. We dont do much because in our small scale there isnt too much we can do other than share our message and deliberate amongst ourselves. When revolutionary sentiment begins building among a wider and wider audience, the path towards action will become far more clear. Not because we decided to do away with our differences, but because the material situation will do away with those differences itself.

apathy maybe
24th September 2006, 16:14
Originally posted by Anarchist Freedom+--> (Anarchist Freedom)How can we acheive our goal of a anti capitalist society? I have been pondering this question with much thought. It confuses me as to how we can plan to acheive this, When we never seem to do anything. Its not that we arent getting to our goals its that I
feel that we have so many problems with infighting and disagreements that never get anything done. Our ideologies clash more then we do with the real problem the capitalists. Our goal has become ideological and not enough working together to get what we know has to be done. Just because a Marxist disagrees with a trot doesnt mean that they cant work together. Same for anarchists, We focus too much on our ideology then we do anti capitalism.[/b]I see your point, but I tend to disagree. Yes there is disagreement and infighting, but there is also significant working together in different places as well. While anarchists might disagree with the methods and thought of some Marxists, it does not mean that they do not work together for tactical purposes for short-term gain.

Besides, our aims have always been ideological. As an anarchists I do not want to see (actually I do not think it is possible) an anarchistic society brought about from the top down. However, some people do think this is possible. To me, the ends do not justify the means, and that is an ideological stance.

And another thing, what you see on this board is not necessarily what is happening in the "real world". This board is set up for discussion and debate about various leftist ideas. Once you go into the OI section, however, you see how most of use join ranks to fight (debate) the capitalists.


Originally posted by [email protected]
well on your post i see like the word anarchist, or ism like 15 times, ?I see the word "anarchists" once, "Marxist" once, "trot" once and capitalist/capitalism or anti- three times. What is it you are smoking? And can I have some?


BreadBros
Thats because the revolutionary period of late capitalism is barely beginning in the Western world. Most of us here on this board are the "vanguard" (as in, were among the first proles to begin developing practical Marxist thought in an advanced capitalist state, not as in the Leninist definition) of the new society. Theres considerable in-fighting because the path is not clear. We dont do much because in our small scale there isnt too much we can do other than share our message and deliberate amongst ourselves. When revolutionary sentiment begins building among a wider and wider audience, the path towards action will become far more clear. Not because we decided to do away with our differences, but because the material situation will do away with those differences itself. I can see your point (though not all of us are Marxist). Yet I disagree to a certain point. Even if the materialist situation dictates the rule of a small minority (as it seems Lenin wanted, though most Leninists will I think disagree), I will oppose that. For my fight is not just against capitalism, it is against all forms of oppressive hierarchy, that includes the state.

sanpal
24th September 2006, 23:23
Originally posted by Anarchist [email protected] 24 2006, 03:15 AM
We focus too much on our ideology then we do anti capitalism.
Golden words! I'm not against ideology but if to chew this cud all the time, I think the matter will be moved on no inch. It's necessary to develop the theoretical mechanism of functioning of non-market economy not to get the situation like Lenin's era which was in the "next day after revolution". Won proletariat should have ready instructions how to plan production and consumption, what control of production/consumption would been, what link between market and non-market sectors of economy in future society would been, etc. It is direct understanding by proletariat of necessity in revolution too.

Anarchist Freedom
25th September 2006, 03:40
Well our front as a whole to fight against capitalism is marked by one problem. How do you get a group of people to believe in something when we are horrible salesmen? We cant honestly plan a world revolution without knowing how to sell our ideas to the masses in something that they understand. Most people dont understand half the jargon we talk about. I just feel we have become wrapped up in theory and not practice and how to transition our ideas from paper to reality.

rouchambeau
26th September 2006, 00:35
Even if all of the white, middle class, privileged radicals got together what could they do?

Jazzratt
26th September 2006, 01:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 09:36 PM
Even if all of the white, middle class, privileged radicals got together what could they do?
Oh yeah, because leftism is made up entirely of white, middle class radicals. You got any material proof of that mate?

DystopianDream
26th September 2006, 02:52
Originally posted by Anarchist [email protected] 24 2006, 03:15 AM
How can we acheive our goal of a anti capitalist society? I have been pondering this question with much thought. It confuses me as to how we can plan to acheive this, When we never seem to do anything. Its not that we arent getting to our goals its that I
feel that we have so many problems with infighting and disagreements that never get anything done. Our ideologies clash more then we do with the real problem the capitalists. Our goal has become ideological and not enough working together to get what we know has to be done. Just because a Marxist disagrees with a trot doesnt mean that they cant work together. Same for anarchists, We focus too much on our ideology then we do anti capitalism.
Well Marx thought that it could happen through anarchy, but whether anyone will ever grow tired enough to join forces with the masses is doubtful.

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
26th September 2006, 03:37
The problem is the stark contrast between Marxist DoP theory and anarchist politics. Personally, I think Marx's dialectical methods are helpful, but I believe his DoP and socialist theory stems from Plato's Republic and Marx's personal frustration with people not accepting his brilliant ideas.

It really comes down to the fact that Marxism and anarchism both attempt to be working class ideologies. One thinks the working class is too stupid to look out for their own interests and the other thinks the working class must look out for its own interests to achieve communism.

I will never work with the authoritarian brutes who actually propose that a centralized state, the stark opposite of communism, will somehow lead to a classless, stateless society. The centralization of power perpetuates power. It has been well observed and many dialectical methods point to this result. Obviously, I am not going to stop my sectarianism any time soon.

Anarchist Freedom
26th September 2006, 04:38
Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 25 2006, 08:38 PM
The problem is the stark contrast between Marxist DoP theory and anarchist politics. Personally, I think Marx's dialectical methods are helpful, but I believe his DoP and socialist theory stems from Plato's Republic and Marx's personal frustration with people not accepting his brilliant ideas.

It really comes down to the fact that Marxism and anarchism both attempt to be working class ideologies. One thinks the working class is too stupid to look out for their own interests and the other thinks the working class must look out for its own interests to achieve communism.

I will never work with the authoritarian brutes who actually propose that a centralized state, the stark opposite of communism, will somehow lead to a classless, stateless society. The centralization of power perpetuates power. It has been well observed and many dialectical methods point to this result. Obviously, I am not going to stop my sectarianism any time soon.
I cant agree more on centralized power. It just seems to discouraging, How do you get a group of people so dissalusioned with their lives in capitalists societies. To realize what they are in? Its possible but ive just been so let down with what happens in the world because of all the conflicts that occur and no one even knows why they happen.

Janus
27th September 2006, 02:21
We've discussed this a lot.

We're having a similar discussion right now.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=56269