Shoplifting

[RedCommieBear]

I think this is the right forum...

This morning I was reading the (mostly) lifestylist CrimeThinc. While I find the writing somewhat interesting, I don't believe eating out of the garbage is a real way to solve any of the Earth's problems...

However, I came upon an essay which I found pretty interesting,Why I love SHOPLIFTING from big corporations (http://www.crimethinc.com/library/english/shoplifting.html).

From the article:


Originally posted by CrimeThinc.+--> (CrimeThinc.) Nothing compares to the feeling of elation, of burdens being lifted and constraints escaped, that I feel when I walk out of a store with their products in my pockets. In a world where everything already belongs to someone else, where I am expected to sell away my life at work in order to get the money to pay for the minimum I need to survive, where I am surrounded by forces beyond my control or comprehension that obviously are not concerned about my needs or welfare, it is a way to carve out a little piece of the world for myself—to act back upon a world that acts so much upon me[/b]

The article goes on...


CrimeThinc.
Supermarkets know they can charge me a dollar for bread because I will starve if I do not buy it from them; they know they can't charge me four dollars, because I will go somewhere else. So our interaction revolves around unspoken threats, rather than love, and I am forced to give up something of my own to get anything from them


The shoplifter wins her prize by taking risks, not by exchanging a piece of her life for it. Life for her is not something that must be sold away for seven or eight dollars an hour in return for survival; it is something that is hers because she takes it for herself, because she lays claim to it.


Shoplifting is a refusal of the exchange economy. It is a denial that people deserve to eat, live, and die based on how effectively they are able to exchange their labor and capital with others. It is a denial that a monetary value can be ascribed to everything, that having a piece of delicious chocolate in your mouth is worth exactly fifty cents or that an hour of one person's life can really be worth ten dollars more than that of another person.

Hmm... I do find the idea interesting. However, just like the eating out of a garbage, it doesn't seem like any sort of real solution, and I really don't like stealing, even if it is from a faceless, evil corporation.

So... Do you believe shoplifting is a useful tool? Would you/Do you shoplift in the name of gift economics/anarchism/communism/etc.?

[Pirate Utopian]

i only do it for the fantastic discounts :D
but to do it out of idealogy is not bad nor is it good, if it are big corporations it doesnt mind if a gorup of people keep stealing from one of their 10000 stores around the world.
sorry Abbie Hoffman

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Yes, I shoplift like crazy. I don't believe it's political activism. And I think this is in the wrong forum.

[Forward Union]

This is more of a theoretical discussion on whether or not Shoplifting is useful. If it were to be a discussion on "The best ways to shoplift" it may fit here, or in DIY, not sure.

I'll move it to theory for now. But whoever mods theory can put it somewhere better - if that's not the best place.

moved.

[YSR]

Like all CrimethInc stuff, it's written so wonderfully that they could say whatever they wanted and many of us would go along with it. I always say it whenever CrimethInc comes up, but it's true: they're bloody excellent writers.

In any case, I think I agree with RedZep. While it certainly is an anti-capitalist action, it's not one that's likely to have far-reaching anti-capitalist results. But it certainly can help us get by a little easier, which frankly, we need. Shoplifting is perfectly justifiable within a revolutionary mindset.

[The Grey Blur]

I do it for the craic

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

It's absolutely justifiable. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to condemn shoplifting, particularly when the victim is rich. Is it worth getting caught for? No. If you really need something for survival, there are other less risky means of getting it. Shoplifting is fun, but only in safe quantities. I would never jack something bigger than my hand... i.e. it must fit easily in my hand and my pocketso that it can go from the shelf to my pocket without being seen. Be wary of cameras and employees of course.

Or if you're crazy, which I have been a few times before, just stick shit in a bag and go. I frankly don't know how I had the guts to do that, in retrospect.

[fstick]

I have heard several anarcho-communists and anarchists mention that they shoplift and such. Is this correct? Is it correct to rob those who may not necessarily be cappies but who run small businesses because they don't really have much of a choice?

I know I am going to be flamed by people screaming "They do have a choice! They can become a worker or farmer and be treated like shit with us!" and since I have a feeling I might be influenced by alcohol I am not even sure of my question myself.

[afrikaNOW]

It's an action of immature reactionaries who think they're "sticking it" to the system.

[Folk The System]

well i think it might be justifiable to steal from certain types of stores, but definently not small business or mom and pop shops. but wal-mart? i say go for it.

[Wanted Man]

If people really want to shoplift, that's their problem. Personally, I would hope that they'd stop risking getting caught and having to pay money or spend time in jail. Both money and time can be used for much better purposes.

[Folk The System]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 12:18 AM
Both money and time can be used for much better purposes.
agreed. its obviously a big risk

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

It's a difficult question. If Walmart notices an increase in thief within their stores, who is going to take the pay-cut or lose benefits because revenue is down? Not the CEOs. The workers.

I wouldn't advocate shoplifting unless it is neccessary for you to survive. Although I could be wrong in thinking it hurts the workers more - I may have just been convinced of this by the cappie media so I don't shoplift.

No idea, really.

[Iseult_]

besides, the losses incurred by business due to shoplifting are ultimately passed on to the honest consumers through higher prices.

[apathy maybe]

Would you believe that this has been discussed before? This year even?

Basically shoplifting on its own is not a revolutionary act. It can even be anti-revolutionary if you shoplift from comrades or potential comrades.

Anyway, here is the link to the discussion on this article
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49227
and a link to another discussion that could be merged with this one,
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=56163

[Janus]

but wal-mart? i say go for it.
Wal-Mart generally always prosecutes captured thieves so you don't wanna steal something ver valuable from them.

[Janus]

I really wouldn't call it revolutionary though neither would it be reactionary. Most people who steal do so for practical reasons rather than for ideology. However, it is undeniable that most thefts result from societal and economic problems that can only change in a communist society.

[encephalon]

On the surface, I find shoplifting to be rather.. pointless. It doesn't so much hurt the capitalist, and it rarely even goes noticed.

However, there's a trend startiing (at least, in my part of the world) that makes the EMPLOYEE responsible for any act of theft.. whatever is stolen comes out of their paycheck. Personally, I can vouch for this.. I've paid roughly a hundred dollars in the last year because of gasonline being stolen on my "watch." Frankly, when I see someone shoplifting that isn't going to be caught on camera, I ignore it.

But it must be said: you aren't merely hurting the capitalist any longer, and I expect more capitalists to devise legal contracts making employees responsible for shoplifting. Yes, I know it aligns the worker's interests with those of the capitalist; that much isn't even debatable. But know that if you're doing it in a very blatant way, it can and possibly will come out of a fellow worker's paycheck.

So if you're going to steal something, do it well. Do NOT talk to the employee afterwords, since that will justify taking the capitalist's loss out of the worker's pay. Do NOT steal gas, or at least don't enter the gas station without paying (gnereally, the worker isn't held responsible if they are paying attention and the person doesn't come in.. still, I'm rarely paying attention, and usually throwing crap at coworkers). If you want to steal, then at least do as much as you can to clear the worker(s) involved from responsibility. At minimum wage, we don't have the money to pay for whatever you steal; we don't have the privilege in our circumstances to find another job; and we don't have the money to pay a decent lawyer to stop the capitalist rape of our wages without a loss.

In essence: please note that there's a very strong trend out there that makes workers responsible for this crap. Plus, shoplifting is not a revolutionary act.. it affects very little, and usually hurts the petite bourgeoisie rather than the actual bourgeoisie. It's how corporations are set up, and the petite bourgeoisie are learning that they don't want to be the brunt of losses, either.

[LSD]

Petty crime is not revolutionary. Revolution comes out of workers openly fighting for their rights, not out of secretly slipping a kit-kat bar into your pocket.

If you want to "fight capitalism" in your daily life, do it in a useful way; join a union, promote solidarity, talk about communism to people.

I know that it can seem tedious, but it's got a far greater chance of actually accomplishing something than stealing from your local wal-mart.

Aside from a slight thrill the first half-dozen times and a few saved bucks, shoplifting is one hundred percent useless.


Yes, I know it aligns the worker's interests with those of the capitalist

That's hardly unique to this situation.

Many instances of lumpen or petty-bourgeois lifestylism inadvertantly unite workers and capitalists. Primativist attacks on industry, for instance, or "animal rights" opposition to meat production.

When workers fight their bosses, they're not just fighting against capitalism, their fighting for their rights as workers. Anticapitalist efforts without this class-based goal, however, is directionless and, very often, actually counterproductive.

It's like smashing store windows or firebombing factories, it can be viscerally satisfying for in terms of practical gains, it gives us nothing. The owners transfer their losses to their employees and cash in their insurance policies.

Random acts of "resistance" are "anarchy" in the worst possible meaning of that term: pointless chaos.

Workers are defined by their relationship to the means of production, the capitalist means of production. If workers didn't have to pay for the things they consume, they wouldn't be workers anymore. That's why "shoplifting", while it's certainly not "immoral", is outside of the general proletarian experience.

That's not to say that workers don't steal, obviously many do, but for the most part, workers go through their lives paying for the things they use.

Accordingly, shoplifting as a political act is not pro-proletarian and so is not useful to the workers struggle.

Obviously it can be useful as a personal act, especially when one is short on cash. But then, pickpocketing can be personally useful, that doesn't make it "revolutionary".

Encephalon is spot-on, more and more workers are being forced to compensate their bosses for any lost property. And even if they weren't, stealing from the petty-bourgeois does very little to help revolution; and stealing from the mega-corporations is basically pointless.

Besides, a revolutionary act needs to be openly revolutionary, in some way at least. Shoplifting is nothing more than one less item on the shelp and a pen stroke on an itinterary.

When employees strike or sieze a factory they not only help themselves, they send a message to every other boss and every other worker that hears about it. When you steal a DVD, the silence is deafening.

[Noah]

What about books? There's so many books in Waterstone's that i'd like to read but I can't afford them.. :(

[apathy maybe]

It doesn't matter if you steal from the rich. What you must understand, is that it is not a revolutionary act.

Even if the capitalists punish the workers for 'letting' shoplifting happen (if any bastard tried that on me I would quite my job), that is not your responsibility. It is just one more reason to hate the capitalists

(If you want to learn how to shoplift, follow the first link in my first post in this thread, then search the threads I posted there.)

[RedKnight]

Wal-Mart's new shoplifting policy. http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/13/news/compa...fters/index.htm (http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/13/news/companies/walmart_shoplifters/index.htm)

[Wanted Man]

Yeah, I don't think anybody would seriously defend the claim that it is "revolutionary" or "liberating". I can just imagine some guy with a mohawk sitting in his big, comfortable room in his parents' single-family home, munching on shoplifted Pringles: "Hell yeah, I really did my part in workers' liberation..." :rolleyes:

[adz170]

has any 1 thought about the people who are behind the corporations? i dont mean the CEO's or other high class corporate fascists but i mean the labourers ? , for example you steal some bread , you arent not just stealing the profits which the company could make , you are stealing the labour which has gone into providing you with that bread...
so next time you choose to steal something look at it how marx would are acces it in how much it is on how much labour went into it...
thx adz :D
btw i have stole a few things but i think i would rather stay out of prison and spend my time in this imperfect world.

[bezdomni]

The ability to shoplift and eat good food out of dumpsters id due to the wasteful nature of imperialism.

Shoplifting is a politically neutral act. It's not inherently revolutionary or reactionary. It just is.

That said, if I can't afford something that I need, I will steal it.

[RedKnight]

During a war, theft isn't stealing, it's raiding. But unless you are engaged in a violent struggle, you should not steal because it accomplishes nothing.

[cb9's_unity]

i don't think something as petty as stealing will really make of a difference. Stores like wal-mart almost don't care if we steal. and as others have mentioned only bad things can come out of this. whenever crime goes up prices for the consumer go up with it. plus as anarchists and communists we already have a pretty bad wrap in this society. i for one really don't want to make it any worse.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 04:47 PM
But unless you are engaged in a violent struggle, you should not steal because it accomplishes nothing.
Buying accomplishes nothing as well. Should we refrain from that as well?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 07:36 PM
besides, the losses incurred by business due to shoplifting are ultimately passed on to the honest consumers through higher prices.
classic bourgeois reply

by the same token, profits lost during strikes is also passed onto the innocent consumer.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by FoB+Sep 18 2006, 08:43 PM--> (FoB @ Sep 18 2006, 08:43 PM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 04:47 PM
But unless you are engaged in a violent struggle, you should not steal because it accomplishes nothing.
Buying accomplishes nothing as well. Should we refrain from that as well? [/b]
in all fairness, buying food, clothes, water, shelter, etc. keeps most proletarians alive

but you have the right point... just because it accomplishes nothing, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it

of course, avoiding risk is a good idea
but I know many people who do it a lot, and have never gotten caught
Am I going to object to this?On what grounds?

[which doctor]

One of the main problems with the revolutionary potential of shoplifting is the fact that it's most often done in secret. It's not very visible. It's not open resistance. Many reactionaries shoplift as well, see Winona Ryder.

It would be far more revolutionary to pull a Robin Hood gang type deal like what went down in Germany recently. That was a very visible action, and the proceeds went to the poor.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

That would be about as revolutionary as the government giving poor people food stamps. It doesn't solve the problem whatsoever, and just because you're part of an organized group taking part in this action, doesn't mean they won't lock you up with fifty other "revolutionaries".

[afrikaNOW]

What revolutionary potential does shoplifting have?

[Comrade Corinna]

I do not shoplift, but I do download free music :lol:

Honestly, I think shoplifting for a "revolution" is for bourgeois posers looking for an excuse to get material things for free. Plus, those of you who said that the money lost comes out of the paychecks of the workers not the capitalists, you are probably right.