The Jewish Holocaust

[Comrade J]

Ok, I'm doing A-level History, and one of my modules is a year of research of any historical topic, and at the end of the year I have 3 hours in exam conditions to answer a question on it, also chosen by me.

I've decided to look into the holocaust and whether it was a long-term plan of the Nazi government, or whether it was a result of other unforeseen causes, such as the lack of countries willing to accept Jewish immigrants, the progress of the war etc.
Either that, or my question may be something like "No Adolf Hitler, No Holocaust." Discuss. which is a quote I saw in a book I was flicking through the other day.

So I wondered if anyone knew of anybody here knew of any interesting books/films/essays etc that addressed this question, or came to some form of conclusion regarding either of the options, as I will have to do the same at the end of my essay.
Obvious sources are Mein Kampf and a program that was on British TV a few years ago about the Wannsee conference.

However, because I've only just decided to do this topic, I don't whether it was planned or a somewhat 'spontaneous' decision, so if anyone has any opinions or evidence relating to the topic then I'd be greatful, and if anyone knows any good books etc then that too would be much appreciated, cheers.

If nobody knows of anything, then no worries, it was worth a shot.

[Invader Zim]

I suggest you look into the chronology of the Third Reich.

Consider that Hitler came to power in 1933, but the 'final solution' was implimented in 1942. Prior to that the nazi state racism had taken a markedly different route, with mass forced emigration, percecution, imprisonment and slave labour; however the leap to mass extermination had not been made.

I suggest that you see if you can aquire an 'Athens login' from your teachers, so that you can access online academic journals, which will undoubtedly supply you with a great deal of facts and source material.

If you can not get access, then I will see if I can find something for you.

Also check out the open access journals, which are professional articles which have been made freely available online.

Such as the History Cooperative (http://www.historycooperative.org/home.html)

Or the Internet Public Library

http://www9.ipl.org/div/searchresults/?wor...ype=traditional (http://www9.ipl.org/div/searchresults/?words=holocaust&searchtype=traditional)

Other good sites include Sparticus School Net.

Their article on the final solution is brief, but contains a number of primary sources: -

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERfinal.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERnazigermany.htm

You can find the complete Mein Kampf here: -

http://www.crusader.net/texts/mk/

*note* This is a nazi website - and may well be blocked from schools and rightly so.

[chimx]

look at pre-holocaust laws put into effect by the nazi party in germany. in particular, you will see they were certainly anti-semetic in that they pushed for boycotts of jewish stores and pogrom-esque destruction of jewish property, but the german population were extremely slow to go along with these policies, forcing the party to "move slower".

but honestly german ww2 history is far from a topic of interest of mine, so i don't know. i do know, however, that this is a history topic that has been done to death, and you will be able to find countless journal articles on the matter. for that very reason you may want to find a more "unique" theme for your research paper--in particular one that will allow you to look at more primary sources. ;-)

[Severian]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 14 2006, 01:27 PM
So I wondered if anyone knew of anybody here knew of any interesting books/films/essays etc that addressed this question, or came to some form of conclusion regarding either of the options, as I will have to do the same at the end of my essay.
Obvious sources are Mein Kampf and a program that was on British TV a few years ago about the Wannsee conference.
I know this is the big debate among mainstream historians of the Holocaust. Those who say it was planned from the beginning are called "intentionalist"; those who say it evolved in the course of the war against the USSR are called "functionalists".

I tend to agree with the functionalists. Consider, for example, this chart of % of Jews killed by country. (http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/jewskild.htm)

The number's 24% for Germany itself, where the Nazis started off with driving out the Jewish population. The number's a bit higher in most western European countries.

Poland's highest - 88%. Other Eastern European countries are also high. The USSR's 33%, despite the fact most of the USSR wasn't occupied by the Nazis.

Or as an example, consider the history of Auschwitz itself. It began as a slave labor camp to build a planned colony of German settlers in Poland. Later, the settlement was cancelled and the labor camp expanded; finally it became an extermination camp with gas chambers.

The "functionalist" explanation puts the Holocaust back into history; in the context of the tooth-and-nail death duel that was WWII on the Eastern Front. Hitler declared it a war of races and ideologies; reality made it a clash of economic systems. While its architects were far from rational, the Holocaust did serve a purpose, like other mass murders in history. It spread terror and it eliminated real and perceived enemies.

[Janus]

Moved.

[The Feral Underclass]

It's my opinion that the Holocaust was planned and not planned at the same time :P

Hitler spoke about the destruction of the jews in his speeches dating right back before the DAP was turned into the NSDAP. He also wrote explicitly about the destruction of the jews in Mein Kampf.

Clearly Hitler had the "subjective" intention to deal with the jewish race in some way. However, this wasn't made a reality until 1942 at the Wannese Conference in which high ranking Nazi officials decided that forced immigration was not possible nor desirable.

What you also have to remember is, according to Professor Ian Kershaw, the Nazi hierarchy was a contemptuous mess of egotistical men vying for attention. These leading Nazi’s would attempt to "out Hitler-Hitler".

Immigration was a very real idea until Hydrich came up with the idea of mass exterminations, perhaps in an effort to "please" Hitler as Hydrich was seen as Hitler's heir-apparent. The whole Holocaust was not planned, but there was a plan to deal with the jews dating back to 1920.

So, although Hitler had some "subjective plan" about dealing with the jews there was no "objective plan" until Hydrich came up with murdering them all.

[Invader Zim]

I have to say I agree with the posiition that TAT takes. The mass extermination of jews, was the final solution to the 'Jewish problem'. The use of this wording tells us a great deal about the holocaust. It tells us that other methods had been tried to eliminate the 'problem', but that it had come to mass murder. This shows us, like TAT says: -

"Clearly Hitler had the "subjective" intention to deal with the jewish race in some way."

While I am somewhat conflicted over the use of 'subjective', the jist of the issue is right there. The Nazis had long sinse recognised the 'problem' and had tried various means of dealing with it, such as mass emmigration, but the planned elimination of the Jews was the 'final solution'.

So while hitler did not have some scheme to wipe out the Jews dating back to his time as a rubbish poverty stricken artist - and arguably not even when it occured - it certainly was planned and authorised by the time it came to actually occur in 1942.

[Comrade J]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 02:00 AM
look at pre-holocaust laws put into effect by the nazi party in germany. in particular, you will see they were certainly anti-semetic in that they pushed for boycotts of jewish stores and pogrom-esque destruction of jewish property, but the german population were extremely slow to go along with these policies, forcing the party to "move slower".

but honestly german ww2 history is far from a topic of interest of mine, so i don't know. i do know, however, that this is a history topic that has been done to death, and you will be able to find countless journal articles on the matter. for that very reason you may want to find a more "unique" theme for your research paper--in particular one that will allow you to look at more primary sources. ;-)
I studied Nazi Germany up to 1939 last year, and the fact that there are so many available texts etc is the whole reason I'm doing it and also I find it interesting of course.

Thanks for everyones advice/opinions anyway, much appreciated, and I'm taking it all into account. I wanted to do something about WW2 Prisoners of War in Germany, as I know pretty much everything there is to know about it, but you can't really write for a few hours on that on subject.

[Morag]

Another idea o explore would be the change of personnel in the upper ranks after the Night of the Long Knives.

I did a class discussing the lead up to the Second World War last year, and my professor (whose done a hell of a lot of research into Nazi Germany) was fairly adament that the event played a huge role in the "final solution." Basically, previous to the NotLK, the original Nazis were in power and were true anti-Semites, but those who came to prominence after the event were more careerists, willing to do absolutely anything to please Hitler. Thus, the Holocaust. I can't remember who it was, but I believe two old Nazi's were still around at Wannsee and were pretty horrified, like, "What the hell?" I'll see if I can't find some concrete evidence, but it's still an interesting vein to discuss.

[piet11111]

the original plan was to create a jewish colony somewhare where the jewish poeple would be left to take care of themselves.
as the war progressed the location changed from poland to the USSR and at the height of nazi power madagascar.

hitler had the strange habbit of giving several subordinates the same order to force them to compete.
so was it a task of the german gauwleiters in poland to "germanise" the population.
the gauwleiter in the north used massive deportations while the gauwleiter in the south let the poeple sign some sort of pledge of alliegance.
(the northern gauwleiter was a protoge of himmler and complained to himmler about this, himmler went to hitler to complain yet was told that this was up to the gauwleiters themselves)

as the war turned bad the nazi's became obsessed with the period after the war and their options of creating a jew-free germany where running out.
and such the holocaust was thought up and put into practice.

[VRKrovin]

Comrades,

I have heard from various non-zionist Jewish comrades of mine that there was some collaboration between zionist groups at that time and the Hitler fascists. Apparently the zionists saw the holocaust as their best chance to justify a zionist state (oh, we are victims, therefore we MUST have our own country). Does anyone know if this pans out, or is it just more bogus rumour like so much else? Thanks.


Krovin

[Wanted Man]

I'm not entirely sure about that, but from what I've gathered the zionists that founded Israel didn't care much about the plight of the Holocaust survivors. Although of course that memory became very convenient later on.

[Severian]

That's probably an exaggeration.

There was a deal between some Zionist organizations and the Third Reich to try to channel German Jews to British-ruled Palestine.

The larger issue, I think, is that all the Zionist organizations - and many of the other bourgeois Jewish organizations - remained completely silent while the U.S. and Britain excluded refugees fleeing the Nazis.

If Jews had somewhere else to go - fewer of them would go to Palestine.