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ShadowSaj
11th September 2006, 10:23
Primitivism: Back to Basics?

Civilisation is backwards, Primitive societies are advanced!

When we say we want green anarchy, a stateless society, free and in harmony with Nature, people tell us that it's "a nice dream but it'll never happen" as "it's against human nature". The point is that is has happened - green anarchy was how all people lived for a good 90% of history, how they lived before they were even Homo Sapiens, how some still live better than we do today. When we point this out, people start pissing and whining about "going back to the caves" and getting protective about their TVs, cars and other fruits of "Progress", particularly Lefties and "anarchists" who don't know the difference and who think "Progress" is some inevitable law of Nature and not part and parcel of State society and the self-serving elites ruling it. We'll demolish those myths in a future issue - in this we're looking at why people living in green anarchy are more advanced than those in this sort of society.

A key problem with this society, as any Marxist will tell you, is alienation. They mean alienation from product - that is, the boss takes what you make to sell back to you, it's not yours - but the intense division of labour that guarantees the commodities that people get so protective about also means we're separated from each other and the Earth. Never mind not affording all those commodities, they're no compensation for the lonely crowds, the powerlessness of being pushed around by bosses, the dependence on specialists who screw us over our basics of life, the meaninglessness of a life ruled by events beyond our own control. This isn't about "capitalism" per se - any mega-machine society based on intense division of labour's going to run the same, whatever rhetoric power / management specialists and co-ordinators use to mystify their rule.

Marxists look forward to communism, when the material abundance of capitalism is for all - but turn their back on what they call "primitive" communism where people were already equal and had all they wanted in life(1). We've seen why this latter-day "communism" won't work already and note that Marxists reject the version that did work as 19th Century racist anthropologist and "Progress" proponent Henry Lewis Morgan argued Civilised men (sic) more "advanced" than pre-industrialised people(2).

The Industrial Revolution certainly warped the dreams of the people. Before it, when people envisaged a better world, it was Eden or its variants -- from the medieval Land of Cockayne to the early-20th century Big Rock Candy Mountain -- where the abundance of arcadia lifted the yoke of work and duty from their shoulders(3). Fantasy met reality in the Age of Discovery, the communism of the North American Indians and South Sea Islanders being oft-quoted as alternatives to European society - some even defected. Others attempted to turn their dreams into reality by establishing communities "like the early Christians" and, ironically, the push to colonise the New World was as much about returning the poor to their own little subsistence "Edens" as the rich plundering its resources. The main current post-Industrial revolution is a faith in "Progress", a new world through technology not community.

Fantasies have been projected on stateless society because State society is so bad. And the substance? That depends on the society - some are real snakepits - arbitrary rule by tyrants, societies like this one in minature(4). If there's one society that isn't like that - and there are many, particularly those based on hunter-gatherer bands free of shamans - then there's no reason why everyone shouldn't live their better way.

In such societies, community practice goes way beyond that envisaged by orthodox revolutionaries(5>. As there is no significant division of labour, specialist tyranny is no threat and there is a stron communal bond of common experience. Instead of alienation, there is particularisation, each person, animal and element of the environment dealt with individually, some societies even lacking collective nouns(6). Individual/society, society/Nature and other classic polarities are dissolved in this particularism and it also ensures specific consideration of cases rather than appeals to abstract customs (which later become hierarchically-enforced/imposed laws) and thus a surprising toleration of diversity given conventional stereotypes of tribal societies. Attitudes to property also impress - rather than nit-picking over who should own what as orthodox revolutionaries do, primal people practice usufruct, something is someone's while their using it and everyone else's to use when not. A lot of shite is talked by precious artsy types about how Civilisation is culturally superior to the rest of the world - so show me the machine that can simulate the Baka's communal harmonic singing. Culture is not a separated activity for primal people, so they're better-developed culturally as well as socially.

We're not saying future society should be like any pre-existing society, just that we can learn from the ones that work and pick'n'mix accordingly. Culture is something we choose to do, to create, not some biological inheritance or unchangeable given. We should get informed and make the best of ourselves.

Sentinel
11th September 2006, 12:12
What a load of bollocks.


The point is that is has happened - green anarchy was how all people lived for a good 90% of history, how they lived before they were even Homo Sapiens, how some still live better than we do today.

No, they lived in ignorance and misery, helpless in front of the forces of nature. And they didn't live long lives exactly.


When we point this out, people start pissing and whining about "going back to the caves" and getting protective about their TVs, cars and other fruits of "Progress"

How about medicine, medical equipment, surgery, sanitation? The things that make the difference between an early grave and living old enough to see your grandchildren? Whining too? Is it also alienating us from 'Earth'?


particularly Lefties and "anarchists" who don't know the difference and who think "Progress" is some inevitable law of Nature and not part and parcel of State society and the self-serving elites ruling it.

Yes, progress has been in the interests of elites. Because it is and has been in the interests of all mankind, all types of societies have been increasingly progressive compared to their precessors.


but the intense division of labour that guarantees the commodities that people get so protective about also means we're separated from each other and the Earth. Never mind not affording all those commodities, they're no compensation for the lonely crowds, the powerlessness of being pushed around by bosses

The way primitivists paint technology as unnecessary decadence certainly tells us something about their class background..


This isn't about "capitalism" per se

Here it is, singled out from the rant: the reason we restrict primitivists on boards like this. The inability to see how capitalism is the reason behind why injustices remain even in abundant and hitech societies, and how this obsolote system must be fought systematically instead of making a childish rebellion against civilisation and everything it stands for.


We're not saying future society should be like any pre-existing society, just that we can learn from the ones that work and pick'n'mix accordingly.

Which, of course, is how progress works. There is therefore no chance at all humanity will pick any form of living that has been outdated, or technologies that have already been replaced by more efficient ones. Let alone abolish technology and go back to savagery.

AmazingDetail
11th September 2006, 12:19
is this for real?

aight, i have an idea: you and a bunch of your primitivist friends go to the remote location of your choice and start living the dream. although you wouldn´t want any contact to "civilisation" any more, please do us that are interested in your project the favor and issue a press release every time you reach another 5-year-decrease in life expectancy.

good luck.

Jazzratt
11th September 2006, 14:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 07:24 AM
Primitivism: Back to Basics?

Civilisation is backwards, Primitive societies are advanced!

This is about where I wanted to shout very rude things at you.



When we say we want green anarchy, a stateless society, free and in harmony with Nature, people tell us that it's "a nice dream but it'll never happen" as "it's against human nature". It'll never happen as long as sensible, rational people exist. I don't know about "human nature" but I can tell you straight off that it is in the interest of humanity not to go backwards.


The point is that is has happened - green anarchy was how all people lived for a good 90% of history, how they lived before they were even Homo Sapiens, how some still live better than we do today. Point me to one example of this perfect primmie society that is living better than we do today. Go on.

When we point this out, people start pissing and whining about "going back to the caves" and getting protective about their TVs, cars and other fruits of "Progress", particularly Lefties and "anarchists" who don't know the difference and who think "Progress" is some inevitable law of Nature and not part and parcel of State society and the self-serving elites ruling it. We'll demolish those myths in a future issue - in this we're looking at why people living in green anarchy are more advanced than those in this sort of society. It's not so much the TVs and cars I'm worried about. It's the hospitals, medicines and surgery techniques. Progress exists seperatley to the idea of a state society, we can progress out of the society rather than regress out of it.


A key problem with this society, as any Marxist will tell you, is alienation. They mean alienation from product - that is, the boss takes what you make to sell back to you, it's not yours - but the intense division of labour that guarantees the commodities that people get so protective about also means we're separated from each other and the Earth. Pure, unmitigated bullshit. Take this computer for example, or the one you are using, we are both using them to communicate - brining us closer than I'd ever really like to be to people like you. You cannot use the marxist alienation argument to back up doing away with commodities entirely, especially useful ones like pills to help people with heart conditions.


Never mind not affording all those commodities, they're no compensation for the lonely crowds, the powerlessness of being pushed around by bosses, the dependence on specialists who screw us over our basics of life, the meaninglessness of a life ruled by events beyond our own control. This isn't about "capitalism" per se - any mega-machine society based on intense division of labour's going to run the same, whatever rhetoric power / management specialists and co-ordinators use to mystify their rule. Lonley crowds? Isn't that a contradiction? Which specialists are screwing us over? Doctors? Teachers? Technicians? Engineers? I don't think they've ever screwd me over - I'm fairly sure entrepeneurs and other bussinessmen/women have though. Where is your proof for the asssertion that any progressive society will be the same as this one?


Marxists look forward to communism, when the material abundance of capitalism is for all - but turn their back on what they call "primitive" communism where people were already equal and had all they wanted in life(1). We've seen why this latter-day "communism" won't work already and note that Marxists reject the version that did work as 19th Century racist anthropologist and "Progress" proponent Henry Lewis Morgan argued Civilised men (sic) more "advanced" than pre-industrialised people(2). What are you saying, that we should abondon any idea of transcending our primititive beginings and weaknesses just so we can do what exactly? Live in fear of everything and die young of horrendous diseases? Just because some who was racist argued that civilisation was more advanced than pre-industrialisation doesn't mean it's not true, to argue otherwise is a blatant ad hominiem.


The Industrial Revolution certainly warped the dreams of the people. Before it, when people envisaged a better world, it was Eden or its variants -- from the medieval Land of Cockayne to the early-20th century Big Rock Candy Mountain -- where the abundance of arcadia lifted the yoke of work and duty from their shoulders(3). Fantasy met reality in the Age of Discovery, the communism of the North American Indians and South Sea Islanders being oft-quoted as alternatives to European society - some even defected. Others attempted to turn their dreams into reality by establishing communities "like the early Christians" and, ironically, the push to colonise the New World was as much about returning the poor to their own little subsistence "Edens" as the rich plundering its resources. The main current post-Industrial revolution is a faith in "Progress", a new world through technology not community. Firstly the industrial revolution was a late 19th century phenomenon. Secondly Humanity has always progressed out of its old conditions, improving its standard of living tenfold each time. Consider the number of births that result in the death of either mother or baby in your 'paradise' compared to the ones that do when we have 'EEEEEVIL' medical technology. With your colonisation example consider the amount of death and disease in the european travellers, the high mortality and so on amongst them.


Fantasies have been projected on stateless society because State society is so bad. And the substance? That depends on the society - some are real snakepits - arbitrary rule by tyrants, societies like this one in minature(4). If there's one society that isn't like that - and there are many, particularly those based on hunter-gatherer bands free of shamans - then there's no reason why everyone shouldn't live their better way. If you understand historical matrialism, as you so often point to marxist ideas, you will understand that going backwards to these societies will do little more than reset the clock as far as progress is concerened. We will most likley always have innovators to drag us out of the desperate harshness of our old ways of living and onward into something greater. It's only the reactionaries like you and the bourgeoisie that stand in the way.


In such societies, community practice goes way beyond that envisaged by orthodox revolutionaries(5>. As there is no significant division of labour, specialist tyranny is no threat and there is a stron communal bond of common experience. Instead of alienation, there is particularisation, each person, animal and element of the environment dealt with individually, some societies even lacking collective nouns(6). Right, so we should give up on technology because the survivors will be happy? And those who die when we remove every piece of technology? Do you really want to go back to the beggining just for your descendants to go through feudalism again? Just so you can live in a society where the language is lacking? There is a very good reason to have collective nouns - to articulate collective things.


Individual/society, society/Nature and other classic polarities are dissolved in this particularism and it also ensures specific consideration of cases rather than appeals to abstract customs (which later become hierarchically-enforced/imposed laws) and thus a surprising toleration of diversity given conventional stereotypes of tribal societies. Sounds lovely, but what conditions will they be living in? The kind where they fear carnivourous animals, where their bodies are less well adapted to their enivronment than everyone elses, where they can expect to live a short and desperate life. In those conditions the existance or non existance of abstract customs becomes completely arbitary.


Attitudes to property also impress - rather than nit-picking over who should own what as orthodox revolutionaries do, primal people practice usufruct, something is someone's while their using it and everyone else's to use when not. A lot of shite is talked by precious artsy types about how Civilisation is culturally superior to the rest of the world - so show me the machine that can simulate the Baka's communal harmonic singing. Culture is not a separated activity for primal people, so they're better-developed culturally as well as socially. That sounds like a very workable approach to property doesn't it, What if you only have one of something and three people need to use it simultaneously? What about the food that is hunted or gathered? A lot of shite is talked by you primmies about everything. This culture thing is one example, no crude tribe could hope to reac hthe hieghts of arictecture and sculpture we have reached. The machine you're looking for is possibly a high-end music orintated computer - taking a very small sample of somones voice in a rough approximation of the Baka and then playing with pitch, tone and so on until it is absolutley perfect and layering the sound on different notes - bam there you have the synthetic tribal chanting.


We're not saying future society should be like any pre-existing society, just that we can learn from the ones that work and pick'n'mix accordingly. Culture is something we choose to do, to create, not some biological inheritance or unchangeable given. We should get informed and make the best of ourselves. Throughout your shitty article you have ignored one vital point - how do you propse to go about your regression to a world where my maximum life exectancy would be a year and a half? Personally I'm quite grateful we developed the technology to treat cancer. Please explain to me how you will introduce this without literally billions of deaths?

Mcas
11th September 2006, 18:00
Green anarchy and primitivism aren't the same thing. Thought I would throw that out there.

bcbm
11th September 2006, 20:34
No, they lived in ignorance and misery, helpless in front of the forces of nature. And they didn't live long lives exactly.

The "nasty, brutish and short" line of thinking about the past has been discredited for some time, actually. So-called primitive peoples had a great deal of knowledge about the world around them, were far from miserable (less so than people in our society, judging from modern examples) and weren't entirely "helpless." As for lifespan, they lived fairly long and actually their longevity wasn't surpassed until about the 20th century: agricultural living shortened lives.

Of course, the primitivists are just as guilty of skewing the facts about the past. Many "primitive" societies were far more violent than even our own, with murder being a primary means to solving some problems. Some had ahierarchal relations, but this wasn't the rule and certainly wasn't true across the board. Most have had some form of sex and age discrimination. It gets especially bad when they talk about Native Americans, as this piece does. A number of tribes were caste-based and even had slaves. Certainly not the homogenous "primitive communist" utopia the primmies make them out to be.


Firstly the industrial revolution was a late 19th century phenomenon.

In the US. It started in England in the late 18th century and in the rest of Europe about the middle of the 19th.

Sentinel
11th September 2006, 21:34
The "nasty, brutish and short" line of thinking about the past has been discredited for some time, actually. So-called primitive peoples had a great deal of knowledge about the world around them, were far from miserable (less so than people in our society, judging from modern examples) and weren't entirely "helpless."

Would someone want to try and discredit the fact that I would likely have been dead, of something as pathetic as appendicitis, for fifteen years now without modern surgical technology, medicine and knowledge? :rolleyes:

That's an illness that as many as 5% of the population in some countries get.

People used to die of diseases and illnesses which now are easily cured. And compared to modern man with all of our equipment, I think helpless is still quite accurate.

There might also very well have been tons of knowledge about the world, that is lost to most of us today. It was lost for a reason though -- it would be useless today, as technology gives us the opportunity to concentrate on more enjoyable things than basic survival.

In the future we might not have to worry about survival at all, but that is still beyond us. :(


As for lifespan, they lived fairly long and actually their longevity wasn't surpassed until about the 20th century: agricultural living shortened lives.

That makes sense, as it was also in the 20th century when the fruits of the explosion of technological progress reached the masses in a serious way in large parts of the first world and elevated their living conditions greatly. That's why our lifespans still increase.

It is possible that the living conditions of (some) primitive tribes might have been preferable to those of feudalism, which resembled hell for the poor. But in no way to our present ones, let alone those the future will bring.

Therefore primitivism equals insanity, which I'm sure you agree about BBBG.

colonelguppy
12th September 2006, 00:03
i'd rather have cars and gauranteed food and other neat stuff like that.

bcbm
12th September 2006, 01:06
People used to die of diseases and illnesses which now are easily cured.

Yes, after the agricultural revolution. Most diseases developed following the domestication of animals especially, but plants as well, and the rise of cities.


And compared to modern man with all of our equipment, I think helpless is still quite accurate.

Actually, sedentary living probably makes coping with, say, a flood much more difficult than being nomadic. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, and we still get our ass kicked by the planet in any case.


There might also very well have been tons of knowledge about the world, that is lost to most of us today. It was lost for a reason though -- it would be useless today, as technology gives us the opportunity to concentrate on more enjoyable things than basic survival.

That wasn't the point. The point was that "primitive" people certainly weren't ignorant: they had equal knowledge neccessary to survival in their culture and environment as we have about ours.


It is possible that the living conditions of (some) primitive tribes might have been preferable to those of feudalism, which resembled hell for the poor. But in no way to our present ones, let alone those the future will bring.

Yes, I agree entirely. The agricultural revolution and later the industrial revolution were, initially, probably the worst things that ever happened to the under classes. Now those things have largely come back to benefit everyone with greater health and longer lifespans.

..And computer games and shit. ;)


Therefore primitivism equals insanity, which I'm sure you agree about BBBG.

Absolutely. To think, I used to believe that trash. :wacko: I was only jumping into the argument to point out some historical things.

red team
12th September 2006, 02:14
Now ShadowSaj.

In the language that a primitivist mind like you can understand.

Doing this: http://www.websmileys.com/sm/comp/comp03.gif and http://www.websmileys.com/sm/comp/comp26.gif

Is a bad thing.

Doing this: http://www.websmileys.com/sm/comp/comp14.gif

Is a good thing.

Was it simple enough for your primitivist mind to understand? :lol:

Sentinel
12th September 2006, 02:29
I see your point and mostly agree, bbbg.

It's interesting how horrible an age feudalism (especially the dark ages) was, and yet spawned a slightly better system. Although it took painfully long, much due to superstition and the power of organised religion, compared to capitalism which has served it's 'purpose' in a much shorter time and already is practically outdated in most (if not all) aspects.

Next stop: communism. Exit on the left side of the train. Progress rules! ;)


Absolutely. To think, I used to believe that trash.

I got a marxist-leninist upbringing myself, so I can feel your pain. :lol:

(Meant as a joke, relax leninists. I still consider myself lucky for it.)

red team: LOL

somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback
12th September 2006, 02:35
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 08:24 AM
Civilisation is backwards, Primitive societies are advanced!
There's something awfully wrong with that sentence :wacko:

ZeroPain
12th September 2006, 02:42
There's something awfully wrong with that sentence wacko.gif

bizzaro!

bcbm
12th September 2006, 06:04
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 05:30 PM
It's interesting how horrible an age feudalism (especially the dark ages) was, and yet spawned a slightly better system. Although it took painfully long, much due to superstition and the power of organised religion, compared to capitalism which has served it's 'purpose' in a much shorter time and already is practically outdated in most (if not all) aspects.
Slightly better, so far. I'd say the benefits of industrialism have yet to reach most of the world and are still keeping it in pretty dire straits, which is to the benefit of the bosses of course and why we need to kick those motherfuckers down. :ph34r:


Next stop: communism. Exit on the left side of the train. Progress rules! ;)

I don't believe in progress. ;)

ShadowSaj
13th September 2006, 07:16
It was really interesting reading your response to my post. For the sake of discussion - What would you think about a neo-primitivism society? it could be a mixture between native lifestyle, knowledge and values combined with the positive advances of our current society like medical and environmentally friendly technologies? The best of both world? How closely related (or not) do you think communism is with primitivism? do they share the same concepts?

ShadowSaj

http://groups.msn.com/shadoran

jaycee
13th September 2006, 15:31
communism will retain all the advantages of primitive communism at a higher level and will retain all the technological advances made possible under class society.

There are things which were superior in primitive communism such as unalienating work (which was less arduous and took up much less time), lack of state, class, repression (physical and mental). Also mans connection with nature and other people was stronger.

However we all know the ways in which modern society has produced benefits.

Technology isn't the problem, but its use in class society often is.

freakazoid
14th September 2006, 10:31
Hello all. This is my first post here and I would like to ask if anyone has heard of Richard Proenneke? You can read about him hear, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke To summarize it, in 1968, at age 51, he moved to Alaska to live on his own using his skills to survive. He did have a friend fly up every now and then to give him supplies but he lived off of the land. I have read One Man's Wilderness which is parts out of his diary and it is very good. There was also a documentary about him called Alone in the Wilderness which I haven't seen yet. I posted this in response to the people who say that living simply is impossible.
By the way I am a Christian Anarchist and a survivalist, :)

Forward Union
14th September 2006, 17:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 04:17 AM
It was really interesting reading your response to my post. For the sake of discussion - What would you think about a neo-primitivism society?
Never head of it.


it could be a mixture between native lifestyle, knowledge and values combined with the positive advances of our current society like medical and environmentally friendly technologies?

Well, as long as we recognise the shortcomings of technology, we will always be able to make it increasily less dangerous, and more eco-friendly, or else scrap it. Im all up for keeping 'friendly' technology. And if you want to go and hunt rabbits in the woods, but-naked, in the wind and rain, like a cave man, im fine with that to. As long as you contribute to the society, you can receive all the food shelter and medicine (that we have produced with our wonderful technology) that you need.

I imagine the primitive communes will frequently need to fall back on technology to keep up their little projects.

Keeping green technologies, and improving or scrapping dangerous or destructive technologies isn't primitivism. It's common sense. We don't want to hurt our ecosystem in a way that will negatively effect our well-being. If neo-primitivism is just, wanting safe and clean technology? - and wanting to improve dangerous tech, who the fuck isn't a neo-primitivist?