Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societi

[BreadBros]

Did a search for this and could find nothing on the site. Has anyone here read "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond? It's fairly old (9 years), but I just recently read it. The author's alternate title is "A short history about everyone for the last 13,000 years", however I prefer "A short materialist history of human society for the last 13,000 years with a focus on why certain societies are more technologically advanced and socially complex than others". Its a fairly straightfoward, easy to read, non-technical book about the development of human societies with a special focus on the effects of the environment on human society and on technological development. Although not Marxist or leftist in any sense, it is written in a fairly materialist way and includes a chapter at the end entitled "The future of human history as a science" which details the author's belief that human history should be looked upon as a material-based historical science just like astronomy, environmental biology, etc and not in the subjective idealist way it traditionally has been viewed. Particularly enlightening are his descriptions of the technological and environmental changes that preceded the development of complex, stratified societies, tribute (taxation) systems, the spread of technologies, the effect of cultural institutions on development, etc. It gives any student of history a very clear picture of why stratified societies and states arose which of course has a lot to do with what we discuss here. It also makes clear the environmental differences that made Eurasia a world economic, technological and social powerhouse while leaving say, Africa, in the current state of poverty and low-development that it is now, which helps disprove any racist theories that have in the past been used to explain such differences. I very much recommend it. So anyone here read it (it was a New York Times bestseller so Im guessing at least ONE of you read it)? What did you all think?

[Labor Shall Rule]

I have been wanting to read it. I have seen short clips of this documentary that is based on the book. Seems very interesting.

[Tekun]

I haven't read his book,...but I saw the documentary on PBS twice
And I agree, his analysis is straightfoward and pragmatic
The only beef I have with it is that he doesn't pay enough attention to the effects that colonialism and conquest had and continue to have on third world countries
IMO this is the major reason why Africa, southeast Asia, and most of Latin America has a staggering level of poverty

Aside from that, I recommend the book or documentary to every person interested in world politics, and especially to fellow RevLefters

[Mariam]

I've read it a couple of months back..and damn it was good..they should be teaching it in school :D


Its a fairly straightfoward, easy to read, non-technical book about the development of human societies with a special focus on the effects of the environment on human society and on technological development.

I guess that's way he won the rhone-poulenc scince book prize.

I found the third part of the book to be the most interesting talking about the evolution of germs, writing, tecnology, and government and religion..

[Severian]

Good post, Breadbros. I've read it, and I think it's very good and very much worth reading for exactly the reasons you gave.

And especially because it refutes the standard, racist assumptions about the reasons for differences in the development of civilization and technology - without having to exagerrate the independent social and technological development of Africa, the Americas, or anywhere else. Diamond's refutation of the racists, in contrast to some others, is factually and scientifically solid.

I've sometimes referred to it in past debates about "race" on this site. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=38091&hl=Diamond&view=findpost&p=1291904692)


Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 03:23 AM
The only beef I have with it is that he doesn't pay enough attention to the effects that colonialism and conquest had and continue to have on third world countries
He's answering a different question: why did the Spanish conquer the Aztecs, and not vice versa?

Obviously Spanish colonialism can't have caused the differences in technological development which existed before the conquest, and made it possible!

But the book does become weaker in looking at the last 500 years or so. The point where Europe pulled ahead of Asia, due to the rise of capitalism.

It's not a simple question: why did capitalism arise first in Western Europe? Diamond does, I think, accurately point at one factor: the chronic political disunity of Europe, due to its division by islands, peninsulas, mountain ranges, rivers, etc. Very powerful precapitalist empires were not a good environment for early capitalism. There are other reasons, I'm sure.

But Diamond's stronger for developments before 500 years ago - the reason Eurasia was more advanced than Africa and the Americas.

[Tekun]

He's answering a different question: why did the Spanish conquer the Aztecs, and not vice versa?

Obviously Spanish colonialism can't have caused the differences in technological development which existed before the conquest, and made it possible!

But the book does become weaker in looking at the last 500 years or so. The point where Europe pulled ahead of Asia, due to the rise of capitalism.

It's not a simple question: why did capitalism arise first in Western Europe? Diamond does, I think, accurately point at one factor: the chronic political disunity of Europe, due to its division by islands, peninsulas, mountain ranges, rivers, etc. Very powerful precapitalist empires were not a good environment for early capitalism. There are other reasons, I'm sure.

But Diamond's stronger for developments before 500 years ago - the reason Eurasia was more advanced than Africa and the Americas.

Right...his analysis of pre-conquista times is very accurate
He makes a great assesment of how geography and diet helped the European conquest of the Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs (in addition to the germs and arms that Euro's carried with them)

What I also like is how he doesn't cater to those that believe in European superiority over other cultures in the development of the present world aka eurocentrism, all of his claims and theories are based on logical and objective findings

Though we both agree that the book trails of when at a crucial time, from the 16th on to the present time
Good book nonetheless