Finding one's ideological home

[Robocommie]

I've been thinking about some things, going through this site, and I have a hard question that I can't answer with a history book or political text. So I decided, what better place to ask than here, the board that specifically states there's no dumb questions, and hope my political comrades can answer it.

I'm a very proud socialist. I have far left beliefs and I believe they are the objective truth. I can't stand right wing politics and so much of my studies in History have enflamed and incensed my feelings of social injustice and how much there is, and how much it needs to be fought. My parents tell me I was always like this, since I was a little kid.

So, because of this, I have always had a tendency towards the Marxist and Socialist avenues of politics, like almost everyone here, I imagine. But, lately I've been feeling very out of place with my own Comrades, and that disturbs me.

There's so much on this forum I've found, after all my lurking, that inspires me. People who oppose racism, and oppression by the wealthy elite of society, people who would look out past national and ethnic boundaries and unite to pursue justice, and that heartens me.

But I've seen a lot of anger too, and a lot of cynicism, a lot of hatred that I can only imagine is the built up result of years of having justice trampled on by the people with the money. I don't want anyone to misunderstand, I know what it's like to be angry about oppression, VERY angry. I've read the newspaper, I've listened to racists and fascists, Neo-Nazis and Wall Street junkies and Republicans, and I've seen Red, literally. Ann Coulter makes me so mad I feel like I could puke. But there seems to be so much conflict here, among Leftists who should be uniting towards a common goal, and so much of the anger and bad feeling I've seen here has made me feel reluctant to get more involved in the RevLeft community, simply because as much as some posters would make me feel comfortable and welcome, others do quite the opposite. There's so much hatred of religion, when I've always had a deep respect for liberation theology, and certain aspects of religion that have spoken to the best parts of mankind. I've never seen why just the possibility of God is inherently anti-Populist. And yet, I know there are people on this board who, having read what I just wrote, are convinced I'm an enemy and should be shot when the Revolution comes.

More than anything, I want to belong with my fellow Reds. I sure as hell don't feel comfortable out there in the world of Reagan and Aryan Jesus. But what I want to ask is, do I have a place here? Does my belief in the redistribution of wealth, my belief in the need for armed insurrection against social oppressors, my hatred of colonialism and economic imperialism validate those things that are not so Marxist, like my hesitation to wade into the blood and guts of all who would oppose us, or my respect for Zen philosophy or the possibility of God's existence?

I've already exposed myself quite a bit with this. I have a feeling that someone's going to pounce on me for being anti-revolutionary, as I've already seen happen to a few people. I just ask that when you respond to this, consider that I do value many of the same things you do, and I am a human being who is merely trying to live up to what my conscience tells me and trying to find a community of Leftists I can join with for a common cause.

[YSR]

Well, I'm sure you're welcome among us. Many of us came to this site, or whatever sort of theoretical source functioned as a radicalizing source for us, with more "liberal" ideas.

At the risk of sounding patronizing, I think that over time you will begin to see why these ideas aren't logical. (For instance, you believe in armed insurrection but don't support violence? Or so it sounds.)

The god question is one that is really contentious around here, as another example. Many of us, myself included, are militant atheists and will force that down your throat. But what's most important is that you are a committed and engaged revolutionary. They certainly don't consider you "an enemy," just misguided. If we thought that, we would be totally cutting ourselves off from that vast majority of the working class that still holds religious beliefs.

I'm sure that you're "welcome" here, without a doubt. Just shrug off the criticism from people who are just flaming you. The most important thing is learning here. Don't take shit personally and see what you can learn. I suggest lurking around in the Theory forum. I did that when I first came. I never posted, but soaked up the discussion and learned an enormous amount about my own thoughts, as well as tweaked them when I saw more logical ideas. Actually, you should post there anyway. It's been really boring lately, so looking at some older threads might be worth it.

Remember that revolution is not about your "conscience" as much as it is about your "mind". We are scientific socialists, not emotional ones. Sure, oppression makes us all red in the face, but the important thing is that we understand how and why we are oppressed and struggle coherently to dismantle the means that hold us down.

Good luck!

[Robocommie]

Thanks for your words, Young. Obviously I can't agree with you 100% on what you said, but interestingly enough it was your post in the Native American thread in Politics which helped reassure me that it might be possible to find a place here.

I realize many Comrades do have a problem with religion. I feel they're selling themselves short on some of the most human explorations of the questions of existence that occur after we've had enough bread, when we're lucky enough to do so, but I'm not here to preach, I'm not here to convert, far from it. I'm here to unify with other socialists for the better good of mankind. Understanding why many Leftists are so atheistic, having seen where religion has contributed to oppression when it's gone bad, I shall choose to agree to disagree, and discuss things that we can see eye-to-eye on.

As far as the armed insurrection goes, I did mean violence. I believe violence is a tool, but I believe it is a regrettable one that should only be used when the oppressors have proven themselves unwilling to be educated and help build a better society for everyone, not just the elites. Even when we do kill, I believe we have to be very careful that we kill for the right reasons, in a sense, that we fight out of compassion for the oppressed, and still remembering that the people we fight against ARE human, even if they've lost their way and need to be overthrown.

Anything else, and we risk becoming the callous, hateful monsters that our Skinhead arch-rivals are.

[Delta]

Welcome to RevLeft Robocommie, and I hope you stick around.


As far as the armed insurrection goes, I did mean violence. I believe violence is a tool, but I believe it is a regrettable one that should only be used when the oppressors have proven themselves unwilling to be educated and help build a better society for everyone, not just the elites. Even when we do kill, I believe we have to be very careful that we kill for the right reasons, in a sense, that we fight out of compassion for the oppressed, and still remembering that the people we fight against ARE human, even if they've lost their way and need to be overthrown

I think most people here would agree with this. In any case, the large mass of people that will enable the revolution will likely believe this. You have to remember that it's very easy to say "just shoot the fucker" online, but much more difficult to do so in real life. Perhaps some say things that are unncessarily violent because they fear the movement turning into a peace movement advocating hunger strikes to get rid of the oppressive systems we all live in, who knows.

[Messiah]

I'm not going to adress your points specifically, but can offer some humble advice of my own. Revoltuionary politics is not immune to what can best be described as douchebaggery. There's been lots of people, and lots of posts I've come across here from supposed "comrades" who literally take the attitude that if you aren't an orthodox believer in whatever branch of leftism they follow, you might as well be dead. But, like I said, there is fundamentalism everywhere, and you shouldn't let it sway you.

Yes, at times it is frustrating, and it is disheartening, but when you feel like that, which we all do at times I'm sure, that's when you have to become all the more secure in yourself. Not in your ideology, but in your methodology. We need all the reasonable, understanding, open minded, intelligent people we can get. Red in the face blow hards we have enough for six revolutions, nevermind one.

So, at the risk of coming across as too much of a idealist (not that there's anything wrong with that), it doesn't really matter if you're a communist, socialist, anarchist or whatever else. What matters is that you believe in a better way, and a better world. And you strive towards that, first and foremost, by being a good person (loaded term, I know). I think you're well on your way towards that, you just need to be reminded that it's not in vain. Like we all need to be reminded from time to time.

Cheers.

[Ander]

It is an ugly truth that you will see quite a bit of division and in-fighting on this board. As Messiah said, some of the members here believe you must strictly follow their ideology and if you stray from that path for a second they will cut you down.


I realize many Comrades do have a problem with religion. I feel they're selling themselves short on some of the most human explorations of the questions of existence that occur after we've had enough bread, when we're lucky enough to do so, but I'm not here to preach, I'm not here to convert, far from it. I'm here to unify with other socialists for the better good of mankind. Understanding why many Leftists are so atheistic, having seen where religion has contributed to oppression when it's gone bad, I shall choose to agree to disagree, and discuss things that we can see eye-to-eye on.

The question of religion is a tough one among leftists. I think that comrades often believe religion and spirituality to be synonymous. I don't see a huge problem with having certain beliefs, but in my opinion they should be separated from a religious institution. Organized religion is what leftists should be firmly against while developing a more tolerant view of independent spirituality.


I believe violence is a tool, but I believe it is a regrettable one that should only be used when the oppressors have proven themselves unwilling to be educated and help build a better society for everyone, not just the elites.

And don't you think this has already been clearly demonstrated?

[Robocommie]

Well, if I didn't, I'd certainly be spending less time on a board called Revolutionary Left. :)

[violencia.Proletariat]

And yet, I know there are people on this board who, having read what I just wrote, are convinced I'm an enemy and should be shot when the Revolution comes.

I've never read a post on this board that advocates shooting someone because of a belief in god.


I feel they're selling themselves short on some of the most human explorations of the questions of existence that occur after we've had enough bread, when we're lucky enough to do so, but I'm not here to preach, I'm not here to convert, far from it.

I'm sorry but this exploration of our existence has already passed the theological stage. It is complete and utter fantasy.


Skinhead arch-rivals are.

Since when are skinheads (a minority social lifestyle) our enemy? If you are referring to nazis, don't call them skinheads because being a skinhead has nothing to do with nazism.

[chaz171]

Organized religion is what leftists should be firmly against while developing a more tolerant view of independent spirituality.




This is a touchy subject with leftists I know. they say that communism and religion do not mix.

I question why---

what does it matter? if you have separation of church and state, then who cares?

intolerance creates insurgency.

[Ander]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 05:53 PM

Organized religion is what leftists should be firmly against while developing a more tolerant view of independent spirituality.




This is a touchy subject with leftists I know. they say that communism and religion do not mix.

I question why---

what does it matter? if you have separation of church and state, then who cares?

intolerance creates insurgency.
Have you ever heard the quote, "Religion is the opiate of the masses?"

Organized religion is corrupt, ancient, and no longer serves any beneficial purpose in society. The fact that it is not separated from the state in dozens of countries is simply one reason why it should be done away with. It holds back progress in both science and technology, and it continues to keep billions of people trapped in its shackles.

Individual spiritualism at least gives people the ability to have their own beliefs without subscribing to pre-made ideas created by the Church. Personally, I have no belief in divine powers or beings or whatever, but I believe the general populace should have the right to have them.

Intolerance? Religion is guilty of intolerance, more so than anyone or anything else.

[Robocommie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 08:48 PM

I've never read a post on this board that advocates shooting someone because of a belief in god.

Perhaps not, but I have seen some posters, like yourself it would seem, who conveyed a tone of hostility that made me a feel a little on edge because of the ideas I believe in.



I'm sorry but this exploration of our existence has already passed the theological stage. It is complete and utter fantasy.

In your own opinion. The universe is an incredibly vast place which science has only even begun to consider. I think the declaration that God or religious belief is an utter fantasy is a patently arrogant statement that assumes too much.

I've seen a great deal of things in religion that I think benefit humanity. I've seen a great deal of things that hurt it. But among the things that help is a notion of compassion, and selflessness. Things which are at the core teaching of most of the world's major religions. The core principles of compassion and selflessness are what we found our Leftist beliefs on. For as much as people talk about the social scientist aspect of Marxism, and how it is a struggle in the mind and a struggle of rationalism, if any revolutionary, whether Marxist, socialist or anarchist, does not base his revolution on great feelings of love and compassion, as Che said, they have no business fighting for the good of the common people. We are fighting a war of hearts and minds, as much as one of rockets and bullets.

There's a lot of pain in this world, and religion has done a great deal to personally inspire me to fight it. My Leftist values have been inspired, not held back by religion. So while it may not bring anything to you, perhaps it is not so necessary to discount it out of hand as an evil.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Perhaps not, but I have seen some posters, like yourself it would seem, who conveyed a tone of hostility that made me a feel a little on edge because of the ideas I believe in.

I'm not being rude here but, SO WHAT. This is a board for discussion and debate. Ideas are challenged here.


In your own opinion.

And modern scientific opinion.


The universe is an incredibly vast place which science has only even begun to consider.

God is not a physical being so the size of the universe is irrelevant. Religious people have to keep god on a conscience level because they lack any physical proof. In other words, they're full of shit.


But among the things that help is a notion of compassion, and selflessness.

This doesn't mean anything when all religions have violent reactionary sides to them, usually the larger side. The intellectual religious peace freaks are a minority and are irrelevant.


The core principles of compassion and selflessness are what we found our Leftist beliefs on.

Actually our leftist beliefs are founded on materialism and Marx's class analysis of society. It can be argued from a selfish to selfless pov, depending on who you ask. Leftism is not spawned from religion.


For as much as people talk about the social scientist aspect of Marxism, and how it is a struggle in the mind and a struggle of rationalism, if any revolutionary, whether Marxist, socialist or anarchist, does not base his revolution on great feelings of love and compassion, as Che said, they have no business fighting for the good of the common people.

Is che guevara your profit or something :lol: Yes revolutionaries can be compassionate but that doesn't mean we should base our revolution off of metaphysical unscientific mindlessness. Revolution is not based of emotion, but material reality!


There's a lot of pain in this world, and religion has done a great deal to personally inspire me to fight it.

And how many people have just turned in their nightly unanswered prayers, instead of actually changing their conditions? Far more than those driven to leftism by the fictional character Jesus Christ.


So while it may not bring anything to you, perhaps it is not so necessary to discount it out of hand as an evil.

I never used the word "evil", mostly because thats a moral arguement. I base my decisions off of rationality.

[Robocommie]

I'm not being rude here but, SO WHAT. This is a board for discussion and debate. Ideas are challenged here.

So the word Comrade doesn't really mean anything? What, we call each other that out of a sense of decorum and post-Soviet nostalgia? Furthermore, it never pays to be a dick. That's the attitude that I talked about in my original post. I'd rather deal with Liberals who could perhaps be swayed to see the necessity for violence than revolutionaries who aren't terribly pleasant to discuss matters with.



And modern scientific opinion.

God is not a physical being so the size of the universe is irrelevant. Religious people have to keep god on a conscience level because they lack any physical proof. In other words, they're full of shit.

Modern science doesn't leave out possibilities until something comes along to rule it out, and because science also doesn't have anything that indicates God's existence, it is up to the individual to make that call for themselves based on their own feelings. Until you can prove something, authoritatively, you can't make an authoritative claim.



This doesn't mean anything when all religions have violent reactionary sides to them, usually the larger side. The intellectual religious peace freaks are a minority and are irrelevant.

I dispute that the majority of religious people are violent reactonaries, and I feel that that conclusion is colored by your own bias and stereotypes. Furthermore, I hasten to point out that there's plenty of atheists who are violent reactonaries.



Actually our leftist beliefs are founded on materialism and Marx's class analysis of society. It can be argued from a selfish to selfless pov, depending on who you ask. Leftism is not spawned from religion.

Is che guevara your profit or something :lol: Yes revolutionaries can be compassionate but that doesn't mean we should base our revolution off of metaphysical unscientific mindlessness. Revolution is not based of emotion, but material reality!


That's what we base our policies on, it's what we base our vision of the future. It does not explain why Marx even gave a damn about how to help the proletariat. You speak about how Marxism can be argued from a selfish pov, but how is this so? The epitome of selfish politics is capitalism, where the individual seeks his own best good at the expense of everyone else.

Why are we even fighting for a better world if not for our compassion for other people, for sympathy for their plight? If you lack these things, religious or not, I think you've lost focus and need to re-examine what you're doing. I don't think any of us will dispute that capitalism works wonderfully for the elite. It's for the rest of society that we fight for, but what would we even care if not for compassion?

As for Che Guevara, he was a great man. He was a better revolutionary thinker than I am, and I'd wager better than you too. I think a little respect for his example is in order.



And how many people have just turned in their nightly unanswered prayers, instead of actually changing their conditions? Far more than those driven to leftism by the fictional character Jesus Christ.

Sure, there's plenty of them. But there's plenty of people who did the opposite, who stood up for the better good of society. There's even religions based on the idea of social justice, such as Rastafarianism.

And your assertion that the man usually referred to as Jesus was fictional draws a lot of suspicion to me as to just how scientifically objective you truly are. As a student of history myself, I can say that while the verdict is out as to whether Jesus was the son of God (and indeed, I don't believe it myself) there is very little doubt that a man like him did exist.

So how scientifically focused are we really?



I never used the word "evil", mostly because thats a moral arguement. I base my decisions off of rationality.

It's also fairly assinine to overlook the fact that "evil" has come to be a synonym for bad, unpleasant, negative, unfortunate. But, I guess since you're such a consummate rationalist, the use of language is no stranger to you.

Look, I didn't want to have a problem with you. With anyone really. This thread has shown me something important, there's a lot of people on this board who, even if I don't agree with them 100%, are generally interesting, intelligent people who I'd like to talk more about revolutionary issues. It's also shown that my initial fears were somewhat correct, and that some people are just snide and nasty and unenjoyable to speak to.

Have a good one.

[Delta]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 05:36 PM
Modern science doesn't leave out possibilities until something comes along to rule it out, and because science also doesn't have anything that indicates God's existence, it is up to the individual to make that call for themselves based on their own feelings. Until you can prove something, authoritatively, you can't make an authoritative claim.


Is there any way in which a claim in God is any more valid than a claim in unicorns, elves, goblins, or anything else that science hasn't proven to not exist yet?

[Robocommie]

Originally posted by Delta+Sep 8 2006, 12:47 AM--> (Delta @ Sep 8 2006, 12:47 AM)
[email protected] 7 2006, 05:36 PM
Modern science doesn't leave out possibilities until something comes along to rule it out, and because science also doesn't have anything that indicates God's existence, it is up to the individual to make that call for themselves based on their own feelings. Until you can prove something, authoritatively, you can't make an authoritative claim.


Is there any way in which a claim in God is any more valid than a claim in unicorns, elves, goblins, or anything else that science hasn't proven to not exist yet? [/b]
Probably not. But it doesn't bother me, personally.

After all, the Dalai Lama was once asked if reincarnation was proven to not exist, through science, what would he do? He responded that he'd cease believing it immediately, but then asked, how it'd even be possible to do such a thing?

My worship of God is not a worship of a magic sky santa who brings me good things because I pray for them. My worship of God, more than anything, is a love poem to the beautiful things in this world that I fight for. It's a symbol of my love for the people in this world, for the beauty of the forests, mountains and deserts, the beauty of experience, the joys of life. It's a poem of my commitment to make this world the best of all possible worlds for the sake of the people who live in it, because I think that's right.

If science proved God didn't exist tomorrow, I'd perhaps be a bit depressed, but I'd accept it. And then I'd keep on believing in God. Because it's not really about God at all, is it? It's about us.

[violencia.Proletariat]

So the word Comrade doesn't really mean anything?

It doesn't mean anything if the "comrade" won't accept a rational arguement. They wouldn't make a very good comrade.

Just because someone calls themself a communist or anarchist or whatever, doesn't mean they actually follow the ideas.


I'd rather deal with Liberals who could perhaps be swayed to see the necessity for violence than revolutionaries who aren't terribly pleasant to discuss matters with.

If your looking for people to pat you on the back when they disagree with a reactionary idea you have, look somewhere else. This is a place for DEBATE.


and because science also doesn't have anything that indicates God's existence, it is up to the individual to make that call for themselves based on their own feelings.

An opinion based on "feelings" is worthless compared to an opinion based on scientific reality.


Until you can prove something, authoritatively, you can't make an authoritative claim.

You have the burden of proof. Your the godsucker, not me. Prove god's existence.


Furthermore, I hasten to point out that there's plenty of atheists who are violent reactonaries.

The most notable reactionaries are theists.


You speak about how Marxism can be argued from a selfish pov, but how is this so? The epitome of selfish politics is capitalism, where the individual seeks his own best good at the expense of everyone else.

Because as a proletarian, it is in your own interest to fight the class war to seize your labor power from capitalist control.


Why are we even fighting for a better world if not for our compassion for other people, for sympathy for their plight?

I'm not denying these as reasons, but they are not the only or main reasons. Rationality and class interest play a defining role in a revolutionaries conciousness.


I think a little respect for his example is in order.

Respect for what? Che was not a theorist. He was a popular figure in guerilla warfare, and thats what he remains. While I have no problem with Che, there is no reason to give him a daily prayer. :lol:


There's even religions based on the idea of social justice, such as Rastafarianism.

:lol: The wonders it does for the world :rolleyes:


there is very little doubt that a man like him did exist.

Prove it. Jesus christ as described by the bible did not exist. I have heard many claims that a jewish preacher did exist, yet have seen no evidence. I'm not denying this preachers existence, but I'd like to see some evidence.


It's also shown that my initial fears were somewhat correct, and that some people are just snide and nasty and unenjoyable to speak to.

Because I don't agree with you, I am snide and nasty. :rolleyes:

[ComradeBen]

I feel for you, I also am somewhat religious, I am forced to practice Catholicism, however my personal belief is that: "The world and religion are corrupt, I fear it is because of the very thing that tried to make it pure, organized religion."

I dont know if its 100% true, but hey, you have some friends here with your beliefs.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Who cares if you believe in god or not? While many communists are atheist, communism is not centered around religion. You can believe whatever you want, just agree with the ideas of socialism.

[Robocommie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 01:47 AM

Because I don't agree with you, I am snide and nasty. :rolleyes:

No, you're snide and nasty, I assume, because you're an asshole. Young Stupid Radical is a hardcore atheist, as he said, but I don't have the same problem with him that I have with you.

I don't have any more time for you. When I talk to people on forums, it's to enjoy a good conversation. So I really don't care to continue talking to you. If I want pure debate and pure analysis of Marxist thought, I'll read the literature.

[Robocommie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 02:20 AM
Who cares if you believe in god or not? While many communists are atheist, communism is not centered around religion. You can believe whatever you want, just agree with the ideas of socialism.
Those are my feelings too, Comrade.

[LoneRed]

You are right, there is a lot of tension here, It mostly revolves around those whose political action is entirely revolved around the internet and those who deal with the real world more. As well as those who believe in workers empowerment and those who don't.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Young Stupid Radical is a hardcore atheist, as he said, but I don't have the same problem with him that I have with you.

You have a problem with me because I don't have time for your bullshit theistic beliefs. Tough luck. I do not respect that which does not make sense.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by Robocommie+--> (Robocommie)There's so much hatred of religion, when I've always had a deep respect for liberation theology, and certain aspects of religion that have spoken to the best parts of mankind.[/b]What you are respecting is not the religion, but rather the compassion and thought. These do not come from religion, they come from people.


Originally posted by Robocommie+--> (Robocommie)I realize many Comrades do have a problem with religion. I feel they're selling themselves short on some of the most human explorations of the questions of existence that occur after we've had enough bread, when we're lucky enough to do so, but I'm not here to preach, I'm not here to convert, far from it. I'm here to unify with other socialists for the better good of mankind. Understanding why many Leftists are so atheistic, having seen where religion has contributed to oppression when it's gone bad, I shall choose to agree to disagree, and discuss things that we can see eye-to-eye on.[/b]We do not need a metaphysical system of belief or exploration. Because ultimately we cannot prove anything. God might exist, or might not, but the existence or not does not affect us. We live our lives whether god exists or not. When you talk about religion, you have to understand that you are talking about a human construct. As such, yes it has good bits, yes it has bad bits. And like other human constructs you can ask why it was created. In most cases I think you will find that religion is a system of control. That is why leftists should oppose it. However, there is more to it then that. You hate racism, why? Part of the reason I hate it is because it is irrational. It is an irrational belief system, just like religion. Leftists should fight irrationality, because it leads to racism, sexism and the conception of 'other'. Why are you bad? Because you are different. That is what racism is. Religion can lead people down that path, you are not our religion, therefore you are bad.


Originally posted by Robocommie
In your own opinion. The universe is an incredibly vast place which science has only even begun to consider. I think the declaration that God or religious belief is an utter fantasy is a patently arrogant statement that assumes too much.It assumes that we cannot prove it either way. It also assumes that the simpler solution is more likely to be correct. If you had the choice of saying whether the universe was created 'because', or it was hand crafted and baked for five days in a 360 degree oven. Then let cool before being dusted with snow and finally digested and shit out by some magical fairy. Which would you take? Yes it is arrogant, but adults are arrogant when they tell children that Santa Clause does not exist are they not? Do they have any more proof then us regarding god?


[email protected]
I've seen a great deal of things in religion that I think benefit humanity. I've seen a great deal of things that hurt it. But among the things that help is a notion of compassion, and selflessness. Things which are at the core teaching of most of the world's major religions. The core principles of compassion and selflessness are what we found our Leftist beliefs on.So why do we need the religions then? They exist as tools for control, leftists do not need them.


Robocommie
There's a lot of pain in this world, and religion has done a great deal to personally inspire me to fight it. My Leftist values have been inspired, not held back by religion. So while it may not bring anything to you, perhaps it is not so necessary to discount it out of hand as an evil. Irrationality can lead to such things as racism as I have already said. Belief in a metaphysical being for which no proof exists, this is a form of irrationality. I would say that your leftist values have not been inspired by religion as such, but rather by the 'good' bits in them. The bits about loving thy neighbour and charity. The bits that are not followed, but merely mouthed, by the people in power.


Do not take me for an arsehole, I respect your belief (though it may not seem like it above). I too used to believe in god and religion. This board has been part of what drew me away from that. I hope that you too can come away from your personal beliefs in a metaphysical being and supernatural things. Whether you keep your respect for certain philosophies or not is your own choice, but ask yourself, do these philosophies need the religious elements? Or can they stand alone?

[Zero]

The problem on the left is that we all try to have our own opinions.

Oh, whoops. Did I say problem? I ment 'reason why we are a superior force'.

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 02:16 AM
My worship of God is not a worship of a magic sky santa who brings me good things because I pray for them. My worship of God, more than anything, is a love poem to the beautiful things in this world that I fight for. It's a symbol of my love for the people in this world, for the beauty of the forests, mountains and deserts, the beauty of experience, the joys of life. It's a poem of my commitment to make this world the best of all possible worlds for the sake of the people who live in it, because I think that's right.


So in other words you believe in something that does not exist in order to celebrate the things which do?

Not only that, but you're willing to have a tantrum every time a comrade questions whether that kind of muddled thinking has any utility for the revolutionary movement.

BTW, one real poem is worth a thousand imaginary gods.