Socio-economic differences & perceptions of class

[apathy maybe]

What do people think of socio-economic differences within classes and how these differences change peoples perceptions of what class they are in?

Take for example a medical doctor or a lawyer. Both can be wealthy or poor, yet both wealthy and poor have the same relation to the means of production.

Or the sports star who would not consider themselves to be a proletariat.

Or even a miner who earns excessive amounts of money in Western Australia at the moment.

Wealthy people, even if they are members of the proletariat and are being exploited, often do not consider themselves part of the same class as others who work shitty jobs (such as cleaners or garbos). The rank themselves with at least the upper-middle management or in some cases even CEOs.

What do people think?

[YKTMX]

Or even a miner who earns excessive amounts of money in Western Australia at the moment.

What do you mean by excessive? Miners in Western Australia should be earning far more than they are now, no matter what they are earning now.

As for the "prosperous proletariat", I think greater incomes can hinder the growth of class consciousness in the short to medium term. But in the final instance, no matter what they're being paid in the moment, their relationship to their boss will always be a miserable, subordinate one. History has shown that periods of capitalist boom can't and don't go on indefinetly. And the problem for the capitalists is that once you raise people's expectations, you can't lower them again without the shit really hitting the fan.

:)

[AmazingDetail]

What do people think of socio-economic differences within classes and how these differences change peoples perceptions of what class they are in?

i think class in general is not a concept that many people use to define their position in society, therefore your question just doesn´t apply to most people.
also, if you´d ask me what class i´m in: the class of 2000. no, wait...seriously, i wouldn´t know what to say.


Or even a miner who earns excessive amounts of money in Western Australia at the moment.

if for example this miner is paid part of his salary in shares of the company he works for, what class does he belong to? and at which point will he vote for himself to be laid off?

i´ve only been reading this forum for a little over an hour now, so my perception may be off, but i´m under the impression that the idea of class is given too much importance on here, and also in the very simplified form of only two existing classes. that might have been true for some societies at some point of time, but given the differentiated societies most of us live in it´s a little like looking at a chicken and asking if it´s a white or a brown egg.
what i mean with "given too much importance" is that social position is not the deciding factor regarding what opinions people hold. proletarians aren´t just waiting for a wake-up-call, most of their identity constructions are tightly knit into hegemonial ideology. equally, a person who isn´t wearing sweatpants but a designer suit can have a lot of problems with the overall capitalist insanity. only thing i can think of that class actually defines to a vast extent is aesthetics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Distinction
(no better link found right now).
ok, enough ranting. this isn´t necesarilly directed at you, just sth i noticed and that seemed to fit in this thread.

but i´d be interested: what is your definition of class?

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by YKTMX+--> (YKTMX)What do you mean by excessive? Miners in Western Australia should be earning far more than they are now, no matter what they are earning now.[/b]Excessive in the sense that the labour they put in does not justify what they reward. The same way that I say that CEOs are paid excessive amounts. Do you think that (in this case miners) workers should earn far beyond what they actually produce? Do you think that workers should have the ability to accumulate beyond what they can ever use?

Originally posted by YKTMX+--> (YKTMX)As for the "prosperous proletariat", I think greater incomes can hinder the growth of class consciousness in the short to medium term. But in the final instance, no matter what they're being paid in the moment, their relationship to their boss will always be a miserable, subordinate one.[/b]Definitely subordinate anyway ...
I like that term "prosperous proletariat" I'll have to remember it. Anyway, so you believe in the concept of "false consciousness"?


Originally posted by YKTMX
History has shown that periods of capitalist boom can't and don't go on indefinetly. And the problem for the capitalists is that once you raise people's expectations, you can't lower them again without the shit really hitting the fan.OK then. So when the shit hits the fan people will get upset, and if enough people get upset revolution? Sounds like fun! Bring it on.

:)

Originally posted by AmazingDetail
i think class in general is not a concept that many people use to define their position in society, therefore your question just doesn´t apply to most people.Indeed. But they do consider themselves as belonging to social stratas , and these often correspond to class.


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if for example this miner is paid part of his salary in shares of the company he works for, what class does he belong to? and at which point will he vote for himself to be laid off?Shows how flawed Marx's class analysis was hey :). By my analysis he remains part of the non-ruling class group of classes (which one depends on his or her individual circumstances).


AmazingDetail
but i´d be interested: what is your definition of class? What is my definition? Well class is one way that society is divided up into groups. Depending on which analysis you use, it means different things. I have not got a full and coherent analysis just now, but I am working on it.