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deadk
4th September 2006, 01:10
I have an overwhelming issue with the Christian idea of suffering. It is said by the Catholic Church and many other Christian institutions that God, in addition to creating the world and humanity, is both good and omnipotent- this is, however, an irreconcilable paradox. Through the alledged omnipotence of God, it is made clear that God foresaw all the suffering that humanity would endure before he created the world and humanity. He is therefore responsible for all suffering.

Bernard Russell points out that, "if I were going to beget a child knowing that the child was going to be a homicidal maniac, I should be responsible for his crimes." The obvious extrapolation is that if God knew of the sins that Mankind would commit before he committed them, he is clearly responsible for all those sins through his creation man. Religious leaders have constructed several feeble arguments over the years which fall well short of reconciling god's "goodness" with his "omnipotence" in light of the suffering that exists in the world.

One such attempt is the idea that suffering is the result of humans misusing their freewill to sin. However, this begs the question: do rivers flood or volcanoes erupt because of sin? It would seem that most rational individuals would concede this is not the case. The typical Catholic argument for suffering is that the world and its injustices act as a purification process for humans. It is through this process of purification that suffering comes to be understood as good. This argument, of course, is sadistic in nature and unfounded.

To subscribe to such a paradigm, one must witness an innocent child dying of aids and think him deserving of such a "test." Indeed, to belief this one must first strip themselves of all the natural empathy they possess in relation to other humans. To explain in the most general sense, an individual who believes that all suffering on earth is in some manner a good thing cannot have an ethical standing, because he is always having to excuse pain and injustice as divine goodness. At the end of the day we are left to observe that if God is omnipotent- he created suffering; and if suffering is not good, God cannot be both good and omnipotent.

apathy maybe
5th September 2006, 08:53
Indeed. I think most people here will agree with the sentiment given here.

Slightly off topic, I find it incredible that anyone still attempts to "prove" that God exists. The traditional conception of God (omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent, etc.) can not be proven to exist. Any proofs, if they 'prove' anything at all, only prove that there was a creator or first cause or some other such thing. They can never prove that a God exists that is like the traditional conception of God.

deadk
5th September 2006, 09:29
Slightly off topic, I find it incredible that anyone still attempts to "prove" that God exists. The traditional conception of God (omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent, etc.) can not be proven to exist. Any proofs, if they 'prove' anything at all, only prove that there was a creator or first cause or some other such thing. They can never prove that a God exists that is like the traditional conception of God.

Quite correct, the unmoved mover arguement only means a first cause exists. This first cause could be the existence of matter itself. All the "proves" of God were pretty well disposed of by Kant.

BuyOurEverything
5th September 2006, 09:35
I have an overwhelming issue with the Christian idea of suffering. It is said by the Catholic Church and many other Christian institutions that God, in addition to creating the world and humanity, is both good and omnipotent- this is, however, an irreconcilable paradox. Through the alledged omnipotence of God, it is made clear that God foresaw all the suffering that humanity would endure before he created the world and humanity. He is therefore responsible for all suffering.


Ha. It's funny because I talked about that when I had my Bar Mitzvah (yes I had a Bar Mitzvah). I told a whole room full of Jews that their god had to be half evil, because otherwise it was impossible to reconcile the bad shit that's happened on Earth. I have no idea why they let me do that.

Anyways, as to your main point, of course you're right.

RevolutionaryMarxist
5th September 2006, 16:31
well disposed of by Kant.

While I have never read Kant myself (I find him too long, bland, and dumb), I thought (According to Nietzsche), that he was a simple Idealist Theologician?

Umoja
5th September 2006, 20:29
Maybe there was no first cause? Keep going back in time in an asymtote?

At least that's what I think, an unmoved mover solves nothing, and violates causality.

deadk
6th September 2006, 00:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 01:32 PM

well disposed of by Kant.

While I have never read Kant myself (I find him too long, bland, and dumb), I thought (According to Nietzsche), that he was a simple Idealist Theologician?
haha, ya- Kant is known as the grandfather of philosophy because he is soooo boring. But its worth your time.

Nietzsche didn't like Kant because Kantian ethics are really the only thing that can stand in opposition to Nietzsche’s paradigm that all actions are aimed at self-interest.

Nietzsche believed all actions to be utilitarian; Kant supposed that an action can be good or bad based on the action itself and not the outcome.

In this, we can derive purpose from life without falling into the cruel grasp of the a-moral psychoanalysts.

Dean
15th September 2006, 07:16
The concept of god is not one of pure good. God creates, or is, all, and worshipping god means to worship his creation, and that is a worship of nature. God conceptualizes human purity as well, in the striving towards "heaven on earth." I don't think you'll find many realistic christian thinkers that attest that all god does is good, or that none of god's creation is potentially harmful or bad. The concept of god as an omnipotent actor is not one of pure good, but of subscribing to nature - worship, which is of course a respect for scientific inquiry. To "test" traditionally means to cause problems for a person or thing, so in thise sense if earth is a test for humans, it is not simply a test in the sense of judgement, but a problem to be solved, and that brings us back to the consideration of making "heaven on earth."

Suffering is seen as beautiful in Christianity because it is human; christianity, much like any revolutionary religion, started as a movement against hedonism and for regard of the human spirit, not external qualities which can only be qualified in immoral or irrelevant terms.