Stateless society is Suicide

[Orion999]

So after the communist revolution succeeds in your country, and a benign dictatorship handles the transition to communism, and then willingly gives up their power (The likelihood of this is very remote.), the State is then abolished forever, correct?

So what happens years later when some facist or Islamic or zionist country comes strolling in with their tanks? I don't think these communes are going to be very effective against a modern army. How do you propose to defend yourself with no central govt. to organize your defense?

Do you really want to live in a country completely incapable of defending itself from aggresors? Does'nt sound like a very good idea to me.

Stateless society is suicide there is no way around it.

[Orion999]

So noone hear has the balls to answer this one huh. Well there is no answer so I guess I can't blame you all for not even trying. MAybe your finally realizing just how vulnrable you would be in a communal stateless society with no defense.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 05:48 PM
So after the communist revolution succeeds in your country, and a benign dictatorship handles the transition to communism, and then willingly gives up their power (The likelihood of this is very remote.), the State is then abolished forever, correct?

So what happens years later when some facist or Islamic or zionist country comes strolling in with their tanks? I don't think these communes are going to be very effective against a modern army. How do you propose to defend yourself with no central govt. to organize your defense?

Do you really want to live in a country completely incapable of defending itself from aggresors? Does'nt sound like a very good idea to me.

Stateless society is suicide there is no way around it.
The idea is that the revolution would be worldwide, try actually reading some Marx first before you try to argue against Marxist theory.

[Whitten]

We destroy such enemies dring the revolution, thats what the revolution is.

[Loknar]

Talk about naieve. Humanity will always need a state. Without government, humanity is condemed to suicide.

How would our major educational institutions funciton? How would trade be conducted?

Like it or not, humanity needs civlization.

Without government, we are barbarians living in mud huts raiding our neighbors. Talk about reactionary...

[Orion999]

Who's being Naieve? You'd be lucky to pull this off in one country. The Whole world rising up in communist revolution at the sametime, More Communists Fairy tales. Another Questioned Answered by some impossible senario that will never happen.

So what if America revolts and embraces communism, but the rest of the world does'nt want to (this is much more realistic) Is then when you build up your arms and set about conquering the world?

Under your theroy you would tell people "You may be ready for communism but the rest of the world is not, and therefore youll just have to remain capitalists until the mythical and magical day when the whole world decides to embrace communism at the exact sametime.

Communism seems to lack complete knowledge of how the world really works.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 08:48 PM
Who's being Naieve? You'd be lucky to pull this off in one country. The Whole world rising up in communist revolution at the sametime, More Communists Fairy tales. Another Questioned Answered by some impossible senario that will never happen.

So what if America revolts and embraces communism, but the rest of the world does'nt want to (this is much more realistic) Is then when you build up your arms and set about conquering the world?

Under your theroy you would tell people "You may be ready for communism but the rest of the world is not, and therefore youll just have to remain capitalists until the mythical and magical day when the whole world decides to embrace communism at the exact sametime.

Communism seems to lack complete knowledge of how the world really works.
:rolleyes: Again, you should actually try reading some Marx first, if you had, which you clearly haven't, you would be aware that Marx says very clearly that communism won't be able to work in a single area, it can only work if there is a world wide revolution, so to answer your question, there could never be a communist area, only a communist world, so your point is irrelevent.

[Orion999]

world wide revolution is imossible, so you might as well give it up now.

The world is full of many different people with many differernt beliefs. If Marx really believe the whole world would revolt at the exact same time, He was an idiot and so is anyone waiting for this mythical day.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 09:02 PM
world wide revolution is imossible, so you might as well give it up now.

The world is full of many different people with many differernt beliefs. If Marx really believe the whole world would revolt at the exact same time, He was an idiot and so is anyone waiting for this mythical day.
I never claimed that is was possible, I was simply explaining marxist theory to you, because you are clearly uninformed by asking what was to keep a foreign army from invading from invading a stateless society.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 05:26 PM
Talk about naieve. Humanity will always need a state. Without government, humanity is condemed to suicide.

How would our major educational institutions funciton? How would trade be conducted?

Like it or not, humanity needs civlization.

Without government, we are barbarians living in mud huts raiding our neighbors. Talk about reactionary...
:lol:

Sure, once upon a time men decided they they had enough of being a bunch of "barbarians living in mud huts raiding our neighbors" and came up with nazi Germany, fascist Italy and the Roman empire to save Humanity and push our Civilization forwards by raiding our neighbours.


"Talk about naieve"... :rolleyes:

[Whitten]

Talk about naieve. Humanity will always need a state. Without government, humanity is condemed to suicide.

How would our major educational institutions funciton? How would trade be conducted?

Major educational institutions are mainly privatised now, trade would connect itself, as it does NOW. Capitalism involves the state staying out of the economy, remember?


Like it or not, humanity needs civlization.

No one here disagree's with that, except maybe that Primitivist that showed up.


Without government, we are barbarians living in mud huts raiding our neighbors. Talk about reactionary...


How so? What does the state do thats so special it cant be done by other organisations?


Who's being Naieve? You'd be lucky to pull this off in one country. The Whole world rising up in communist revolution at the sametime, More Communists Fairy tales. Another Questioned Answered by some impossible senario that will never happen.

One country turns to socialism, then another, then another, hell even your Capitalist economists and political theorists agree that socialism has the effect of spreading out world wide. Thats why the US undertook a policy of containment in the Cold War.


So what if America revolts and embraces communism, but the rest of the world does'nt want to (this is much more realistic) Is then when you build up your arms and set about conquering the world?

In such an event America would set up a transitionary socialist state, from which they would defend themselves against the capitalists and help to proliferate the revolution outwards. However given the US is the primary driving engine for world capitalism at the moment, it probably wouldnt take too long.


Under your theroy you would tell people "You may be ready for communism but the rest of the world is not, and therefore youll just have to remain capitalists until the mythical and magical day when the whole world decides to embrace communism at the exact sametime.

Not capitalist, "socialist" I suggest you look up that word. Please educate yourself before argueing against the left on a leftist forum.


Communism seems to lack complete knowledge of how the world really works.

To the contary, we have a detailed knowledge of how the world really works. It isnt all a western petty-bourgeois dream world out there.


world wide revolution is imossible, so you might as well give it up now.

The world is full of many different people with many differernt beliefs. If Marx really believe the whole world would revolt at the exact same time, He was an idiot and so is anyone waiting for this mythical day.

Not in a single day. We are talking are far longer time, decades in my opinion. Keep in mind, there IS a transition stage, a socialist state, the democratic dictatorship of the proletariat.

[Avtomatov]

No one said it is going to happen at the exact same time. You know nothing, you are an idiot. You dont even know the different stages, socialism and communism. You are so clueless, go home now, if not then read something. You dont have the knowledge to start argueing against communism, you need to know something to win an argument.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 08:26 PM
Talk about naieve. Humanity will always need a state. Without government, humanity is condemed to suicide.

How would our major educational institutions funciton? How would trade be conducted?

Like it or not, humanity needs civlization.

Without government, we are barbarians living in mud huts raiding our neighbors. Talk about reactionary...
"government" and "state" are not synonymns.. unless you're into colloquialisms.

[Zingu]

You sir, are an idiot. I advise you shut up till you know what you are talking about.



Who's being Naieve? You'd be lucky to pull this off in one country. The Whole world rising up in communist revolution at the sametime, More Communists Fairy tales. Another Questioned Answered by some impossible senario that will never happen.

Capitalism has been a worldwide revolution, first turning over the monarchies in Europe, and turning the whole world after its image by importing its property relations abroad. Its forced entire nations on the pain of extinction to introduce what it calls civilization into it midst; i.e, to adopt the burgeois mode of production theirselves.

As we know it, the world has become much more interconnected due to this transformation, and still is getting even more connected and inter-dependant on each other. Marx hinted on this, which was later developed by more theorists such as Vladimir Lenin on "Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism".

Its common sense that a communist revolution in a globalized economy and community would be impossible to withhold the affects of it in a nation's borders alone. Internationalism is dead, its a matter of Transnationalism now.


So what if America revolts and embraces communism, but the rest of the world does'nt want to (this is much more realistic) Is then when you build up your arms and set about conquering the world?

You sir, are an idiot.



Under your theroy you would tell people "You may be ready for communism but the rest of the world is not, and therefore youll just have to remain capitalists until the mythical and magical day when the whole world decides to embrace communism at the exact sametime.

You sir, are an idiot.



Communism seems to lack complete knowledge of how the world really works.

I think you are lacking on knowing how anything works.

[LoneRed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 08:26 PM
Talk about naieve. Humanity will always need a state. Without government, humanity is condemed to suicide.

How would our major educational institutions funciton? How would trade be conducted?

Like it or not, humanity needs civlization.

Without government, we are barbarians living in mud huts raiding our neighbors. Talk about reactionary...
damn son, they really do got you. They have you believing you need them, what a tool. Learn to think for yourself. of course they want to have you believe you need them, because without that, they have nothing.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 09:07 PM
So noone hear has the balls to answer this one huh. Well there is no answer so I guess I can't blame you all for not even trying. MAybe your finally realizing just how vulnrable you would be in a communal stateless society with no defense.
Try waiting for a bit longer than 2 hours before you start whining, kid.

[red team]

world wide revolution is imossible, so you might as well give it up now.

The world is full of many different people with many differernt beliefs. If Marx really believe the whole world would revolt at the exact same time, He was an idiot and so is anyone waiting for this mythical day.

You can have whatever belief you want, but who's going to buy what you've made and who's going to sell it to you? What's the world's biggest import market? Answer: The U.S. What's the world's biggest exporter? Answer: China. So far their the only two economy propping up everybody else. If China can't sell their exports because the biggest consumer economy in the world has just collapsed from being too much in debt then you've got world wide economic depression. Money is only worth something if somebody has confidence that it could be traded for something else. What's going to happen if from too much debt the money you have isn't worth the paper it's printed on? Right now the dollar is still the world's reserve currency, so a economic collapse would affect every business in the world.

[Liandri Corporation]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 05:48 PM
So what happens years later when some facist or Islamic or zionist country comes strolling in with their tanks? I don't think these communes are going to be very effective against a modern army. How do you propose to defend yourself with no central govt. to organize your defense?

Do you really want to live in a country completely incapable of defending itself from aggresors? Does'nt sound like a very good idea to me.

Stateless society is suicide there is no way around it.
Who said that the people of the communes aren't to be armed and/or in voluntary militias?

[DreamerDeceiver]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 05:48 PM
So after the communist revolution succeeds in your country, and a benign dictatorship handles the transition to communism, and then willingly gives up their power (The likelihood of this is very remote.), the State is then abolished forever, correct?

So what happens years later when some facist or Islamic or zionist country comes strolling in with their tanks? I don't think these communes are going to be very effective against a modern army. How do you propose to defend yourself with no central govt. to organize your defense?

Do you really want to live in a country completely incapable of defending itself from aggresors? Does'nt sound like a very good idea to me.

Stateless society is suicide there is no way around it.
There not being a state does not mean there can't be a military to provide defense. If the people are so united as to form a Communist country then certainly they could unite to repel an invader. You would make a much better arguement if you would point out that militaries(because of the neccessity of commanding figures) and Communism are incompatible, and thus the neccessity for defense by a Communist nation would deteriorate the Communist system. That is precisely why so many people believe that a Communist revolution would have to be worldwide(or at least a great deal of the world).

[Loknar]

damn son, they really do got you. They have you believing you need them, what a tool. Learn to think for yourself. of course they want to have you believe you need them, because without that, they have nothing.


But we're talking about humans here...we cant even keep the peace with governments in place. How will it be with them gone?

We are humans. We SUCK. We cant rule our selves properly and never will be able to. The best thing we have is Empire, nothing else. This is why I oppose Coimmunism. Not because i think its bad, but rather, I oppose it because man cant make it work and will never have the ability to do so.

[Liandri Corporation]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 05:30 AM
But we're talking about humans here...we cant even keep the peace with governments in place. How will it be with them gone?

We are humans. We SUCK. We cant rule our selves properly and never will be able to.

This is why I oppose Coimmunism.
Arguing human nature is a logical fallacy.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by El Infiltr(A)do+Sep 3 2006, 09:18 PM--> (El Infiltr(A)do @ Sep 3 2006, 09:18 PM)
[email protected] 3 2006, 05:26 PM
Talk about naieve. Humanity will always need a state. Without government, humanity is condemed to suicide.

How would our major educational institutions funciton? How would trade be conducted?

Like it or not, humanity needs civlization.

Without government, we are barbarians living in mud huts raiding our neighbors. Talk about reactionary...
:lol:

Sure, once upon a time men decided they they had enough of being a bunch of "barbarians living in mud huts raiding our neighbors" and came up with nazi Germany, fascist Italy and the Roman empire to save Humanity and push our Civilization forwards by raiding our neighbours.


"Talk about naieve"... :rolleyes: [/b]
Acrually, in the case of the Romans....they were correct.

I suppose a Communist may not appreciate this but Rome was the best thing that ever hapened to the western world. As I pointed out before, they were the conduit thru which Greek thought and concept passed thru. Coupled with British and French domination, Parlmient is the most common form of government and the most ACCEPTABLE form of government world wide is the power of a leglasative body.

Before the Romans, the gauls were living in mud huts, not taking baths or shaving. When the Romans came, the created irrigation systems, water systems, baths, civilized laws (which basically all law is based upon) ect...

And interesting note...the Med sea was more pecaceful under Roman rule that it has ever been since then (maybe today is the exception). After Rome, Europe actually lost 1,000 years of development until the Cargolonian Renissance, the Moorish invasion and the Renissance it self.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Liandri Corporation+Sep 4 2006, 05:35 AM--> (Liandri Corporation @ Sep 4 2006, 05:35 AM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 05:30 AM
But we're talking about humans here...we cant even keep the peace with governments in place. How will it be with them gone?

We are humans. We SUCK. We cant rule our selves properly and never will be able to.

This is why I oppose Coimmunism.
Arguing human nature is a logical fallacy. [/b]
The problem is you cant separate human nature from this issue.

[Liandri Corporation]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 05:41 AM
The problem is you cant separate human nature from this issue.
Any definition of "human nature" that's technically correct is going to be so, soo very broad so as to render the argument of "human nature" virtually useless as a tool of debate.

Enlighten me, what is "human nature"?

[Loknar]

Human nature...

In this context, I will define it as followes.

Humans are individually good, however, the government and crowds (such as a anarchy commune) create 'mobs'. This means a humans are simply 1 part of a whole brain structure.

In some cases, like in the west, the government is restricted by the people. In that case, we have a preferable arrangement. In the case of Nazi Germany, people are overtaken by the mob mentality and go along like sheep. People are indeed like sheep.

When you have all these little communes around, how do you know some psycho wont rise up and conquor his neighbors? How do you know such a communal society will always be in the hands of a prolitariate?

Human nature is also such that people wont say anything when a wrong is being committed (believe me Ive wittnessed this first hand).

So, basically, humans cant be trusted to rule them selves. We simpy have to put the best form of government in place. Anarchy isnt it.

Its such a big diffinitioin but I hope I helped define it to your satisfaction.

[Liandri Corporation]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 06:14 AM
Humans are individually good, however, the government and crowds (such as a anarchy commune) create 'mobs'. This means a humans are simply 1 part of a whole brain structure.

Human nature is also such that people wont say anything when a wrong is being committed (believe me Ive wittnessed this first hand).

So, basically, humans cant be trusted to rule them selves. We simpy have to put the best form of government in place. Anarchy isnt it.
Humans are individually good? Serial rapists are individually good? What is good? What is evil? Is something that's good to one person evil to another? Is something that's evil to one person good to another? Who's correct?

People won't say anthing when a wrong is comitted? Even if the people themselves are being wronged? You think (most) people "just take it" when they're robbed at gunpoint?

If humans can't be trusted to rule themselves, then who is to rule? Aliens?

[Loknar]

Humans are individually good? Serial rapists are individually good? What is good? What is evil? Is something that's good to one person evil to another? Is something that's evil to one person good to another? Who's correct?


I meant humans in general are good.



People won't say anthing when a wrong is comitted? Even if the people themselves are being wronged? You think (most) people "just take it" when they're robbed at gunpoint?



Imagine....you watch a woman being ran over by a car. You are 1 of 6 people across the street....as it turns out, you are hte only person to run over to render assistance to that person (this really happened to me). The others just sit there...

Imagine, you get off the train...you see on the expressway a car that has been hit rather badly and the car that it collided with.. You think nothing of it until you look back and realize the other car is gone....hit and run. You go to call the cops. As yuo do, you observe the remaining car, in which the occupant needs help (and you cant get to it btw), and wittness more than 10 cars slowly go around this car until a biker stops his bike to render aid.

Imagine that! more than 10 people slowly passed this car and saw the occupant in clear fucking sight.


But! when the biker stopped, suddenlly others stopped (to my relief).

These 2 scanairos have happened to me...Ive come to the conclucion that humans, when the shit hits the fan, will for the most part remain passive until 1 person does something.

You know...I fucking hate mankind now that I think about these expirences...they really altered my view of 'people'. Fuck people, fuck humanity. And to top this off! I even passed out in a restaurant one time...did anybody help me? NO. I had to get up and straggle home!

Our best hope...is empire.




If humans can't be trusted to rule themselves, then who is to rule? Aliens?


No, in fact, God is. Nobody else has the ability.

[Liandri Corporation]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 06:37 AM
No, in fact, God is. Nobody else has the ability.
In addition to not adressing a number of my points (and, in fact, ignoring a number), you brought a "god" into the argument. You lost any credibility your argument had by doing that.

[Loknar]

Um...no i dont believe so. Whether believe in him or not is not my concern. I only point out that we sure as hell cant do it... Am i wrong?

what did i not address?

In any event im quite tired now so its possible i glanced over it. ill be back later,

[Leon Esperanza]

The centre of the debate is: "How will a stateless society (a single country in the question) defend itself from an invading armed force".

We comunist do have an answer for that you see. In Lenin's "State & Revolution" you can find an answer, I'd tell you to look it up for yourself but you seem to be too lazy or lack a comprehension beyond occidental myths to understand the book.

Basically, the state (a political bureau of administrators + armed forces) is not necesary because people administrate themselves in a more direct "democracy" and armed forces are also irrelevant because people have the weapons under their control and can defend themselves.

I mean, if people could get organized enough to overthrow their nation's capitalist government with a revolution it would be very dumb (well, actually it would be idiotic) to supose they would be defenseless against another country's intent of invasion.

Heck, with organization you don't even need high tech weaponry or professional trained troops (ask old uncle Sam how did Vietnam go?).

[Orion999]

In such an event America would set up a transitionary socialist state, from which they would defend themselves against the capitalists and help to proliferate the revolution outwards. However given the US is the primary driving engine for world capitalism at the moment, it probably wouldnt take too long.


Sounds identical to the U.S.S.R.


Not in a single day. We are talking are far longer time, decades in my opinion. Keep in mind, there IS a transition stage, a socialist state, the democratic dictatorship of the proletariat.

How is this going to be any different than the previous authoritarian, mass murdering states that emerged after similar attempts at this.


There not being a state does not mean there can't be a military to provide defense. If the people are so united as to form a Communist country then certainly they could unite to repel an invader. You would make a much better arguement if you would point out that militaries(because of the neccessity of commanding figures) and Communism are incompatible, and thus the neccessity for defense by a Communist nation would deteriorate the Communist system. That is precisely why so many people believe that a Communist revolution would have to be worldwide(or at least a great deal of the world).

The notion that Military leaders is contrary to coomunism is taken as a given. This would all lead to a Stalinst type dictatorship siezing power.


Arguing human nature is a logical fallacy.

People cannot live together with nothing but their conscience governing them. To think otherwise is absurd.


Basically, the state (a political bureau of administrators + armed forces) is not necesary because people administrate themselves in a more direct "democracy" and armed forces are also irrelevant because people have the weapons under their control and can defend themselves

So a bunch of seperate communes are each going to have their own tanks and planes? They'll be killing each other in no time. What central angency is going to control these weapons? How do you keep whoever this is from becoming a mass murdering communist regime just like all past tries at communism.

[Orion999]

The Question none of you can answer is how do you keep a military dictatorship from emerging in a country trying to transition to communism, and still keep the military?

[lithium]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 06:45 AM
The Question none of you can answer is how do you keep a military dictatorship from emerging in a country trying to transition to communism, and still keep the military?
Firstly, the Revolution deals with overthrowing a dictator and establishing democratic councils. And attempts by an individual to become a dictator would be quashed by the people, who fought for democracy.

Secondly, a country does not move into Communism; rather, the world moves into Communism. When the world becomes Communist, what is the need for a military force?

[Umoja]

Here's a situation:

Corporate powers continues to grow. Eventually they start giving out corporate money to their employees, they can use this corporate scrip to buy what they need, and it's exchangeable with other corporations. What use does the government have then?

If corporations started providing their own fire departments, police forces, and even maintained highways, what would be the point of governments? Can you deny that even capitalism is heading towards anarchy? The question is, who do you want to be in charge?