Martial arts?

[Cult of Reason]

I am moving to London soon and as a result, I imagine, there will be greater opportunity to learn a martial art, especially one of the more obscure ones. Therefore, I am wondering which system is the most useful generally, or, if the question is applicable, more useful for a revolutionary Anarchist, i.e. for combat and self defence skills.

I read through some stuff on wikipedia, and the ones which caught my eye were Wing Chun, Krav Maga, Taekwondo, ACIMA, Kapap and a few others. However, any and all information is appreciated, especially information that helps with choosing one among the myriad.

So, basically, this thread is for general discussion and comparison of martial arts for the purpose of helping an extreme novice in choosing.

Thanks.

[ComradeRed]

Jeet Kune do is one of the best, but wasn't there a thread on this before?

[Cult of Reason]

Jeet Kune Do? Thanks, I will look into it.

Other threads? I will do a quick look.

[Ander]

I'm guessing it would depend on what kind of fighting you want to learn. Different martial arts are used for different objectives, some for honourable challenged fights, some for dirty street fighting. Find what you think is best for you.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

If you want to learn a sensible, scientific martial art, that will be practical to apply in a for self defense then i would recommend tae kwon do.

The International Tae Kwon do Federation is a only organisation practising Tae kwon do.

Since you are moving to london. http://www.ukta.com/schEngland.php

Try it out, the first lesson is always free!

[ComradeRed]

If you want to learn a sensible, scientific martial art, that will be practical to apply in a for self defense then i would recommend tae kwon do. You haveto be kidding me.

My friend's a black belt in Tae Kwan DO, he can't even hurt a fly.

I kicked his ass with good ol' fashioned Jeet Kune Do; as all friends eventually end up kicking each others' asses.

Don't even bother with Tae Kwan Do unless you're gonna be fighting imperialist horsemen...the kicks will do you no good otherwise.

[Cult of Reason]

dirty street fighting

Training in that would be preferable, I do not want the Revolution to come with me still being a useless bum! ;) Besides, there are probably quite a few boneheads in London.

It seems that I will have to look more into the arguments for and against the varying forms of TKD and TKD in general before I make an opinion on it.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

lol ComradeRed has some good opinions on economics, but he surely lets himself down here. His analysis is like a peti bourgeois individualist :P

Just because his "friend" is a push over, does not mean TKD is poor.

In fact, since ComradeRed's friend is probably American, he probably does Olympic TKD, which is a sport.

ITF TKD is not a sport.



Don't even bother with Tae Kwan Do unless you're gonna be fighting imperialist horsemen

ComradeRed expressing his ignorance. Taekwondo was officially introduced and given its name in 1955, where there were no horsemen used in battles.



the kicks will do you no good otherwise.

The kicks will allow you to smash knee through, break ribs, collar bones etc. They certainly are not to be used by the novice, but practices low and mid section kicking techniques are fine. Even Bruce lee "attempted" to implement kicks into Jeet Kune Do, with little success.


It seems that I will have to look more into the arguments for and against the varying forms of TKD and TKD in general before I make an opinion on it.

i would definitely recommend going to at least one UKTA school to see if you like it.

[Cult of Reason]

Here are the martial arts clubs available currently at the Students Union at the university I am joining later this month, i.e. they will be in very easy walking distance, being in the same building where I would be sleeping.

Aikido (From the other thread I get the impression that this is too complex for practical use)
Capoeira (Seems just to be fancy dancing to me)
Chinese Wushu (Wait, there is other Wu Shu?)
Jiu-Jitsu (Aiuchi) (Good for defence, maybe, but is it any good for fighting?)
Ju-Jitsu (See above)
Judo (See above)
Karate Shotokan (I do not know much about Karate, except that it is popular)
Karate do Shotokai (See above)
Kendo (Er... fighting with sticks?)
Kickboxing (Gloves?)
Kung Fu (That could mean anything, I guess)
Rifle and Pistol (I am going to attend this one regardless)
Shaolin Kung-Fu (Monks?)
Shorinji Kempo (Softy softy approach, this one)
Tae Kwon Do (WTF) (Undecided)
Wing Chun (My current impression of this is quite good, despite how little I know of it. I hear that Bruce Lee based Jeet Kune Do on this)

As you can see I have some comments (of varying degrees of validity and maturity). Which of these is probably most worthwhile? Are any of them really worthwhile or should I try elsewhere regardless?

[ComradeRed]

Well, Bloody Capitalist Sham, being the reactionary sod defending Chinese peasentry from mongols with his mighty Tae Kwan Do finesse, might not be the best source for martial arts advice.


Just because his "friend" is a push over, does not mean TKD is poor.

In fact, since ComradeRed's friend is probably American, he probably does Olympic TKD, which is a sport. My friend isn't white, I think he's half Philipenese half Japenese. I don't see what color of his skin has to do with anything though.

I kick everyone's ass equally.

ITF TKD is the martial arts of the gymnists; if you want to be doing the splits as martial arts, it's right up your alley.

If you want to be kicking ass and taking names, Jeet Kune Do is your martial arts.


ComradeRed expressing his ignorance. Taekwondo was officially introduced and given its name in 1955, where there were no horsemen used in battles. Bloody Sham doesn't even know the origins of TKW. True the "official orginization" that calls itself the ITF TKD began in 1955; that doesn't mean that TKD was pulled from thin air in 1955.

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tae_kwan_do) (the most unbiased source around, honest :D): The oldest Korean ancestor of taekwondo is an amalgamation of unarmed combat styles developed by three rival kingdoms in the earliest days of known Korean history. Young men were trained in unarmed combat techniques to develop strength, speed, and survival skills. The two most popular of these techniques were called subak and taekkyon.


The kicks will allow you to smash knee through, break ribs, collar bones etc. They certainly are not to be used by the novice, but practices low and mid section kicking techniques are fine. Even Bruce lee "attempted" to implement kicks into Jeet Kune Do, with little success. That's the only reason anyone should even bother with Tae Kwan Do, for the kicking style. Other than that, it's useless. Even that, it's useless.


i would definitely recommend going to at least one UKTA school to see if you like it. Well, I know I have definately kicked one TKD black belt's ass, and I know I liked it.

Haraldur, have you ever been in a fight? It's not some step-by-step thing, it's a fluid dynamic thing. Rigid tradition is useless in a fight. You shouldn't learn only one martial arts and be done with it, you should learn as many as possible. Take what's good and dispose of what's useless (that is how a materialist would go about, you idealistic swine you Bloody Capitalist Sham you!). I would suggest looking into the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do and learn as many different martial arts as possible, taking what's useful leaving what's useless. Don't be reactionary when it comes to martial arts (as BCS would want :P).

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

basically, all of what "Comrade"Red says is total lies.

Especially the history of TKD. That version is the american friendly version, because they dont want to hear that Taekwondo was invented in 1955 by a guy from the DPRK.

americans, like comradered, feel the need to change history because of their politics.

[ComradeRed]

basically, all of what "Comrade"Red says is total lies.
Haraldur, that's the defence of TKD. Are you really going to stoop down to such a low level to study it :P



Especially the history of TKD. That version is the american friendly version, because they dont want to hear that Taekwondo was invented in 1955 by a guy from the DPRK.

americans, like comradered, feel the need to change history because of their politics. I know not of BCS, but I am not an American. I am a citizen of the world.

Seriously, every martial arts has its strengths and weaknesses. Jeet Kune Do tells you to study as many martial arts as possible, absorb what's useful, and disregard what's useless. Everything has something to offer (hell, boxing has footing techniques!).

Absorb what is useful and disregard everything that's useless, and you shall be a good martial artist...as well as a good materialist that won't burn in hell because of his vain TKD idealism :P

[Cult of Reason]

Haraldur, have you ever been in a fight?

Well, when I was in junior school (ages 7-11) I was often in fights, which took the form of a large group of kids seeing me, chasing me, catching up with me, grabbing me, throwing me to the floor with their collective weights and momenta and then sitting on me and punching me in the stomach, which, unfortunately, left little room for actually learning how to fight or defend onesself. So, effectively, no.


I would suggest looking into the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do and learn as many different martial arts as possible, taking what's useful leaving what's useless. Don't be reactionary when it comes to martial arts (as BCS would want tongue.gif).

I thought Jeet Kune Do was itself a martial art of a sort?

I was thinking of taking one to begin with and then more if I have the time, the problem being that, since I am just starting uni, I have no idea how much time I will, or will not, have. Also, would studying more than one at beginner level be confusing or no problem at all?

[ComradeRed]

I thought Jeet Kune Do was itself a martial art of a sort?
It is. All martial arts have a philosophy to it. It's what makes it an "art" :P


I was thinking of taking one to begin with and then more if I have the time, the problem being that, since I am just starting uni, I have no idea how much time I will, or will not, have. Also, would studying more than one at beginner level be confusing or no problem at all? It depends which ones you study. If you study something like Karate and boxing at the same time, yeah it might get confusing.

If you study Karate and TKD, no not really.

You could see if your uni offers any. Or go one at a time, and study it well, take what's useful, disregard the useless, etc.

[Cult of Reason]

You could see if your uni offers any. Or go one at a time, and study it well, take what's useful, disregard the useless, etc.

My post from earlier on:


Here are the martial arts clubs available currently at the Students Union at the university I am joining later this month, i.e. they will be in very easy walking distance, being in the same building where I would be sleeping.

Aikido (From the other thread I get the impression that this is too complex for practical use)
Capoeira (Seems just to be fancy dancing to me)
Chinese Wushu (Wait, there is other Wu Shu?)
Jiu-Jitsu (Aiuchi) (Good for defence, maybe, but is it any good for fighting?)
Ju-Jitsu (See above)
Judo (See above)
Karate Shotokan (I do not know much about Karate, except that it is popular)
Karate do Shotokai (See above)
Kendo (Er... fighting with sticks?)
Kickboxing (Gloves?)
Kung Fu (That could mean anything, I guess)
Rifle and Pistol (I am going to attend this one regardless)
Shaolin Kung-Fu (Monks?)
Shorinji Kempo (Softy softy approach, this one)
Tae Kwon Do (WTF) (Undecided)
Wing Chun (My current impression of this is quite good, despite how little I know of it. I hear that Bruce Lee based Jeet Kune Do on this)

As you can see I have some comments (of varying degrees of validity and maturity). Which of these is probably most worthwhile? Are any of them really worthwhile or should I try elsewhere regardless?

All advice appreciated. I must admit a little disappointment that Krav Maga is not available there.

[Vladislav]

For street defence look up Systema. I think Comrade Marcel does it and he says it's very useful.

[Taiga]

I heard Krav Maga is great. Highly efficient.

[Delirium]

If you want to learn how to fight is suggest that you get in more fights. Or find somone who wants to learn also and practice with them. Actual experience will do you more good than any martial arts class especially if you are looking to get in street fights.

[C_Rasmussen]

Watch boxing fights and study punches and practice them. Watch martial arts fights and practice those. I know an array of fighting moves that stray from the typical punches. Yet to put them to good use but I can't wait for when its going to happen.

[ComradeRed]

Originally posted by Delerium [email protected] 4 2006, 07:56 PM
If you want to learn how to fight is suggest that you get in more fights. Or find somone who wants to learn also and practice with them. Actual experience will do you more good than any martial arts class especially if you are looking to get in street fights.
This is actually very good advice, in agreement with the best martial arts ever (that's right: Jeet Kune Do).

You need to get used to the environment of a fight. If you are new to it, you'll be screwed the first few times.

It's like getting your sea legs to kick-assery.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 11:18 PM
Watch boxing fights and study punches and practice them. Watch martial arts fights and practice those. I know an array of fighting moves that stray from the typical punches. Yet to put them to good use but I can't wait for when its going to happen.
Hate to quote myself but also having a temper is a good thing for a fight......if you know how to work it that is.

[ComradeRed]

Hate to quote myself but also having a temper is a good thing for a fight......if you know how to work it that is.
Also remember that a good fighter avoids fights ;)

There once was a parable of a man who set up a trap, where a pillow would fall onto the heads of whoever enters his room. Of course, this was feudal japan where pillows were solid wood.

He called his first son, who saw the pillow, took it down, the entered. The man said "You are a great warrior!"

He called his second son, who didn't notice the pillow but caught it in his hands. The man said "You will be a great warrior one day!"

He called his third son, and the pillow hit his head. The son chopped the pillow to pieces with his sword. The father said "Get out, you'll never be a great warrior!"

;)

[loveme4whoiam]

There once was a parable of a man who set up a trap, where a pillow would fall onto the heads of whoever enters his room. Of course, this was feudal japan where pillows were solid wood.
LMAO :lol:

From what I know of martial arts, the Jeet Kune Do philosophy would be the way to go, which is what ComradeRed has been expounding on :) Go to several different classes and absorb the decent stuff and dump the rest. I have a video on JKD in which a couple of trainers talk about what styles work best. As far as I remember, they say Wing Chun for close up work, Aikido for mobility (but frankly I'd dump a great deal of that - I did it and frankly if you are ever in a position to use most of that stuff in a street fight the other guy will be a walkover), I think TKD for kicking style, etc.

Good luck with finding yourself something good. My recommendation would be to find a way of getting yourself really freaking angry really quickly - raw anger will get you through most street fights unless you end up against a guy with skills ;)

[lithium]

You can do any art really, as long as you can do good training in sparring. Sparring trains you to be quick, it develops your fighting techniques, and can be applied to the real world.

I've done Wado Ryu Karate and I found that the kata side of the art was very interesting, but I also think that the kumite (sparring) side also allowed me to apply techniques into a realistic situation.

In my school, my sensei also taught us some good self-defence. We would set up realistic street situations (multiple attackers, some weapons, etc) and then use self defence techniques. We also looked at which techniques in karate could be incorporated effectively into such self-defence and indeed street fighting.

[bunk]

I think Tae Kwon Do was designed with the idea of dismounting horsemen if i remember correctly. That is why there are so many high kicks. This by it's very nature is useless for street fighting and it has also has evolved into an olympic sport so most clubs will be useless. Tae Kwon Do is notorious for a lot of it's schools being MC Dojos.

Any school which focuses on form too much is probably not good for gathering skills for street fighting. Also beware of any school which focuses on belts and is quick to promote people, as long as it is paid for.

Jeet Kune Do is baisically Bruce Lees personal amalgamation of different martial arts into a complete one. I believe his original art was Wing Chun yes. In short i think it would be useful just search around the internet and you'll find loads of info about the hand exercises and such

Most fighters these days cross train between Muay Thai or Kickboxing and a grappling art (Ju Jitsu, Judo, Brazilian Ju Jitsu). For mUay Thai you'd have to look outside your uni but i think it would be worth it. It's a very powerful martial art like kickboxing but with a focus on Knees and Elbows. If you found a traditional class might be different and include some throws and takedowns.

I think watch out for paying for a year or if they want you to pay for months in advance. get a free tester session wherever you go or watch.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 03:18 AM
The kicks will allow you to smash knee through, break ribs, collar bones etc. They certainly are not to be used by the novice, but practices low and mid section kicking techniques are fine. Even Bruce lee "attempted" to implement kicks into Jeet Kune Do, with little success.
That's a load of crap. JKD has kicks from Savate and Muay Thai, some of the best kicking styles around. I took TKD as a kid, take Savate / JKD and Systema now. TKD is ok, but high kicks are useless on the street. Savate de la rue is practiced with shoes, which is what you'll have on 99% of the time. JKD would be WAY better for street fighting. But if you can't find JKD (which I'm sure you can) TKD will be better than nothing.

Also, every JKD school is different so it's good to try before you buy.

JKD is also better if you have taken some kind of Martial Art before, and was never really meant for new comers, though I'm sure these days JKD schools are fine for newbies...

[Comrade Marcel]

Here are some clips of Systema training. Keep in mind this is training not fighting. These are from the UK and I'm pretty sure the school is in London.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type...s&search=Search (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_videos&search_sort=relevance&search_query=systema+training+drills&search=Search)

[Revolutionary Souljah]

I don't know whos said what so far but...

...I know SpecOps and CounterTerrorists/Guerrillas are taught Judo, Ju-Jitsu, and Kick-boxing

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 04:12 AM
Here are the martial arts clubs available currently at the Students Union at the university I am joining later this month, i.e. they will be in very easy walking distance, being in the same building where I would be sleeping.

Aikido (From the other thread I get the impression that this is too complex for practical use)

Aikido is great for learning to redirect force, gain balance and conserve energy (using your opponents energy against themself).

Systema has many of the attributes Aikido does and more, IMO.

But, Aikido is something that takes a lifetime to master, and by itself it is debatable if it would be useful on the street.

A combination of grappling/wrestling and a striking art + Aikido, could be useful, for example. That way, you would get the energy control, grappling and striking.


Capoeira (Seems just to be fancy dancing to me)

You might as well take TKD... ;) Well, Capoeira is good for learning how to dance and throw high kicks, but I doubt it would be helpful for much more than looking good and getting in shape. Also, if your not in shape to begin with it might be difficult to learn.


Chinese Wushu (Wait, there is other Wu Shu?)

I did a bit of Wushu, and there are many types so you should inquire. Good for balance, power, agility/speed.


Jiu-Jitsu (Aiuchi) (Good for defence, maybe, but is it any good for fighting?)
Ju-Jitsu (See above)

Jiujitsu is a generic term kind of like Kung-Fu, Boxing, Russian Martial Art or Wushu. Judo, BJJ, Aikido, Karate and TKD even all have some link or origins in Japanese Jiujitsu. Some Jujitsu is pure grappling, others are not. You have to find more info about what kind of JJ it is.


Judo (See above)

You will learn great balance, takedowns/throws, submitions and how to stay on top when the fight hits the ground. If you took this in combination with a striking style it would be great (such as Muay Thai or Kickboxing).


Karate Shotokan (I do not know much about Karate, except that it is popular)
Karate do Shotokai (See above)

When "do" is at the end in usually indicates it is either for defense or sport or both rather than purely combat. If it has "Jitsu" at the end it indicates a more "combat" appoach or offensive approach, i.e. NinJUTSU. :D.


Kendo (Er... fighting with sticks?)

Don't waist your time with this. It might be really fun, but not useful for real life. If you want stick fighting for real life look into Filipino Martial Arts such as Kali.


Kickboxing (Gloves?)

You'll have to learn how to punch without gloves on your own. Is it "American" Kickboxing? you will learn powerful kicks and punchs, and get good stamina. You have to mix it with some kid of ground fighting though.


Kung Fu (That could mean anything, I guess)

Exactly, it's such a generic term you would have to look into what they are teaching.


Rifle and Pistol (I am going to attend this one regardless)

Yes, any revolutionary should.


Shaolin Kung-Fu (Monks?)

There are many styles of this brand of Kung-fu as well. You can learn some great stuff, but it may take more dedication and time than you can afford.


Shorinji Kempo (Softy softy approach, this one)

Just Kenpo with Zen Budhism Philosophy mixed in, and unless you are interested in that why bother?


Tae Kwon Do (WTF) (Undecided)

As the other comrade mentioned, WTF is very Olympic style oriented. It's kid of like playing darts, using your feet (and occasionaly hands) as the darts and your opponent as the dartboard.


Wing Chun (My current impression of this is quite good, despite how little I know of it. I hear that Bruce Lee based Jeet Kune Do on this)

Bruce Lee's first martial art was Wing Chun; he then based his own style "Jun Fan" on WC. Later, after learning and incorporating other styles he created the hybrid Jeet Kune Do. Bruce never wanted it to be thought of as a style or art, but rather a "way"; a philosophy.

As I explained before, every JKD school is a bit different. My school is very Savate and FMA based because of the experience of the teachers. Other schools are more WC based, or more Mauy Thai.

As for WC, it is really good for learning fast and accurate punches that do not require muscle. The style of punching is very different from boxing style.

This guy is JKD, and has some of the fastest hands I've ever seen:
http://www.tommycarruthers.com/video.htm

Check out some of the WC videos as well to get an idea:
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=wi...n&search=Search (http://youtube.com/results?search_query=wing+chun&search=Search)


As you can see I have some comments (of varying degrees of validity and maturity). Which of these is probably most worthwhile? Are any of them really worthwhile or should I try elsewhere regardless?

Main thing is that you like what you take. Go and try things out and see what you find useful. For me, I've picked Savate / JKD, Systema and Judo. I take Savate / JKD for the striking, kicks and weapons. I take Systema for the breathing, looseness / relaxation, fitness and other "special / eccentric" things that no other martial art has. I plan on taking Judo at some point for the submissions, takedowns, grappling and groundwork. I also constantly watch videos, read books, etc. on other styles and try to incorporate things I find useful, for example Sambo leg locks, BJJ work. I love to work with people of other styles so I can learn from them. You might want to find your perfect fit as well. Go and try before you buy. Most places give a free class, or a first class is a few pounds/bucks. Meet with people and decide if they are nice. Would you be comfortable working with them, or do they look like they would use you as a moving punching bag? Is the intructor a nice persyn, or is he/she like the bad guy from Karate Kid? Is the style dogmatic, (i.e. they consider their style the absolute best and unbeatable style)? If they do then you should exmine what you think the vunerabilities are, and decide if you need more. Places that demand you take no other style are ones to avoid. Also watch out for places that want to sell you lots of gear (I actually heard of a place that only lets you wear their shirts, gloves, use their gymbags, etc.), do they promote people based on how much money they spend, what package they buy or how many friends they get to join, or buy skill and achievment? Is it an art that you can learn with your current shape/body structure, or will you ahve to hit the gym for two years first, etc. etc.

Let us know what you end up doing!

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Um that systema knife training is a total joke, if that is what they train in all classes stay well away.

1) if you are attacked by a person with a knife, and the attackers intention is a stab you. you will be stabbed atleast once if not more. no question.

2) if you feel likely that there is an impending knife attack and you are unable to run without turning your back then there is only one thing you should do. That is move as close to the wielder as possible, there by nullifying the guys ability to swing or lunge. You will have to react really quickly possibly at best getting arms slashed, but you need to either get the knife of him, of knock him to the floor and stamp of the head, neck or knees.

If you fight someone with a knife, expect to lose out, but be totally ruthless, there is always the chance you might be okay.

Evading the knives wont work, there needs to be one swift movement in which you close the distance, disable the attacker and disarm. Evasion of knife strike wont work unless you are 20m+ away.

[Umoja]

I've seen people at school do Escrima (same thing as Kali), and I was shocked with how brutally painful it looked. Someone with two escrima sticks could easily put someone out of comission.

Me personally, I did Aikido (Kokikai) for awhile. It's good for increasing confidence and balance, but besides that it's rather weak. It's not an overly hostile martial art, and I've come to believe that those are better, at least for how I tend to think. If you know Taoism, I think aikido could be described as 'wu wei,' doing without doing.

Seeing the masters perform aikido is very interesting though. The women who taught me were both late-middle aged, with greying hair. They were both short, non-musclar, and in general small in stature. It was amazing seeing them throw people, or we do this one excercise where we sit on our knees facing another person, and try to push them over. They could easily push people double their weight over. It's interesting to say the least, and allows a lot of power without requiring any strength. One of the black belts (another woman) had a bad hip, and had problems sitting seiza (sp?) yet she could still turn around an attackers power with grace.

Practical.... I think not.

I think Comrade Red might be more correct. Something like Muay Thai (or based off of it) was designed for war. I think it's much more practical.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 03:29 AM
Um that systema knife training is a total joke, if that is what they train in all classes stay well away.


How do you know, have you ever disarmed a knife, and if so did you do this on the bases of a strategy or was it out of pure luck?

Plus, you need to be more descriptive about what you found to be a "joke" about it. At least in Systema you will work with knives, TKD will not help you much for defending yourself against weapons.


1) if you are attacked by a person with a knife, and the attackers intention is a stab you. you will be stabbed atleast once if not more. no question.

There are plenty of questions. Anything can happen in a situation on the street. I have seen some weird things happen with knives.

Whether or not your are going to get stabbed is not a question. You have to lose a certain amount of fear of the knife to defend yourself in such a situation. Any idiot knows there is a possiblity of getting stabbed if someone is trying to stab you, like duh. Systema teaches you to understand pain and avoid shock, so if you are stabbed Systema would be useful just to keep moving. Systema philosophy is constant movement, breathing and hence awareness. When you stop moving/breathing you stop "thinking" and you can become motionless, stiff or in shock.


2) if you feel likely that there is an impending knife attack and you are unable to run without turning your back then there is only one thing you should do. That is move as close to the wielder as possible, there by nullifying the guys ability to swing or lunge.

Have you ever been in jail? Or for that matter, haven't you seen any jail flicks? You don't need huge lunging attacks to stab someone. Professional assassins smile in your face and shank you at a close distance in the liver or neck, or some other kill area on the body.

A close distance gives you a chance to take out the attacker, long distance gives you a chance to run. You should always run if you can and turning your back might be the least of your worries.


You will have to react really quickly possibly at best getting arms slashed, but you need to either get the knife of him, of knock him to the floor and stamp of the head, neck or knees.

Sure, those things could work. There are other possiblities such as redirecting the blade, takedowns, choke holds, joint manipulation/locks...


If you fight someone with a knife, expect to lose out, but be totally ruthless, there is always the chance you might be okay.

Agreed.


Evading the knives wont work,

I don't think it's smart to say that. Anything can be evaded - possibly - but evasion means the guy misses then you take him out and/or you get the fuck out of there, not play a ducking game with him. you play ducking games in drills for movement/excericise. People have to understand the difference between drills and a real fight, which is why Systema students don't try to "spar for real" which is an oxymoron.


there needs to be one swift movement in which you close the distance, disable the attacker and disarm. Evasion of knife strike wont work unless you are 20m+ away.

Systema does that type of work but movement is important as well. Not every attacker is disarmable because they might be stronger/faster/whatever than you, and not every attacker is alone, plus there are many other circumstances that can make taking the persyn out impossble.

But the knife debate is very hot and contested in the M.A. world, so it's no surprise you might not like what you see with Systema. My advice would be to go and seek out a Systema trainer and ask him/her to explain and show it to you. Just watching is not really good enough to get the "feel".

That said, I take tactics from other sources as well. A very straight forward video is from these guys: http://www.splitsecondsurvival.com

Even though they look like hicks most of the stuff is very practical.

I would also recommend these guys for knife fighting:
http://www.coldsteel.com/vdwep.html <-- These videos are fucking amazing&#33;

Anyways, no persynal shit between us, just difference of opinion. I hope you don&#39;t think I am trying to say TKD "sucks". That&#39;s really not what I am trying to get at. I just think that it&#39;s more productive for someone to take other things for a faster and more effective results. If you are atheletic, dedicated and have the time; then TKD might be the answer. But most people, like me, are fat, lazy, beer guzzling armchairs who sit in their underwear on revleft for hours on end. ;) :D

But seriously, Systema is something I like, but I do have some reserves about certain aspects of it. That&#39;s why I keep my mind and eyes open. Other people just might want to avoid it, but I would definately recommend you atleast try it if you really want to see for yourself.

[loveme4whoiam]

You should always run if you can
The important point for everyone who is not trained in some form of martial art&#33; :) I&#39;ve been faced by a knife only once (how in the town I live in, I have no idea) and I have no shame in saying I ran like a fecking river. Don&#39;t take any bloody chances with knives, kids&#33;

[Rollo]

Some chances are worth taking loveme4whoiam.

I.E you have a gun or some kind of sword.

[loveme4whoiam]

Well yeah, I kind of thought it was obvious I meant when unarmed yourself. Hell, I wouldn&#39;t mind going up against a guy with a knife if I had a sword, since thats probably the one weapon I have some skill with. Likewise with a pistol; unless you are up against someone of exceptional skill the bloke holding the pistol will come out on top (ie, alive).

[encephalon]

I thought "terrorism" was the new martial art?&#33;?

Seriously (not entirely about the above statement), except in rare circumstances, hand to hand combat is not likely to occur in the next revolution. Soldiers will have guns (and a lot more ammo) and bombs and everything in-between. Martial arts developed so long ago precisely because they were effective--so long ago.


A much more rounded approach is necessary today, and not just in the sense of combat. You need to know your technology, you need to work in groups, you need to excel in communication, and you need to know how to both handle weapons and nullify them--plus some. The focus on the self is largely irrelevant today.

Martial arts might be good with getting in shape or knowing how to defend yourself against the stray nazi, but martial arts will not add to the effictiveness of a revolution like it did in the past. You aren&#39;t going to kick a missile, and you won&#39;t be using a bullet&#39;s energy against the gun. You aren&#39;t going to flip over an explosion, and you won&#39;t jam up an enemy&#39;s communication with meditation and breathing. And for those of you more entrenched in the mysticism of martial arts: you aren&#39;t going to toss a ball of Chi at a tank or helicopter or jet to disable it.

On the other hand, something akin to ninjutsu might be handy.. but only if the extreme technological changes are taken into consideration. If there ever could be a modern ninja, they wouldn&#39;t be hiding in shadows and kicking ass out of nowhere. They&#39;d be making sure heat sensors, cameras, motion detectors and the like can&#39;t see them, in addition to the human eye; and then instead of kicking ass, they&#39;ll likely be disabling some other technological advantage of an enemy--so that the actual masses will be able to take over from there.

[loveme4whoiam]

Uhh, I guess that is all true. But defending oneself from the odd stray nazi is sort of what we are going on about. Let&#39;s be frank, the revolution won&#39;t be happening for a fair old while, but the chances of a punch-up on the street are pretty damn high today. I would say knowing a martial art, or at least knowing what you are doing in a fist-fight, more important than being able to knock out heat sensors.

Not only that, martial arts gives a person a real sense of self-confidence that will be entirely relevant in the revolution. The emphasis may not be on the self now, but if half the men in a squad doubt themselves then the other half is in trouble, so from that perspective as well I would say martial arts are still totally relevant to a revolutionary.

[Comrade Marcel]

Much of what encephalon is saying is correct, but he has gone too far in almost dissmissing the need to train self-defense IMO.

Firstly and foremostly, putting even Nazi attacks aside for one moment, we live in a dangerous world. There is a strong chance you could get shanked for five bucks just walking down the street under capitalism. Pulling out a gun and blowing someone away isn&#39;t really an option. If your not going to be around to participate in change, well that&#39;s a major obstacle to the movement. We need healthy comrades in order to build our movement. So obviously, if martial arts has both health and self-defense benefits, it is of some use to revolutionaries.

Then comes the other possiblities. Well there are the Nazis, let&#39;s keep in mind also that the state won&#39;t always want to disrupt you publically. That means something like hiring thugs to beat up leftists, unionists and/or whater "rabble" is causing trouble. Marx talked about these lumpen types who where basically tools of the working class, or mercenaries who would help crush workers movements for money. This also, of course, happened in Germany before and during the Nazi movement. Recently here in Toronto, workers of a certain nationality were organizing in their work place against a currupt boss. They started talking about forming a union. This boss actually hired gang members from the workers nationality group to deal with the situation, and roughed up one of the agitators badly.

These are examples of when defending one&#39;s self from harm could be very necessary. Imagine if they could have organized to fight back against the thugs&#33;

The problem with a lot of martial arts is that it&#39;s very individualistic, or atleast taught that way, and as organizers we are constantly in groups. Which is why we need to learn not to just defend ourselves, but each other. We have to modify and learn other things that can be useful in collective formations. Let&#39;s put aside martial arts for one second, and even just talk about our way of thinking. It has to be militant and minded in this frame. This article is an example of what I am getting at:

http://www.pcr-rcpcanada.org/en/?pwd/1f

See, at demonstrations, meetings, events, whatever... anything can happen and being security conscience doesn&#39;t mean just being as "anonymous" as possible.

Also, during a guerilla war situation, we would obviously be at a serious disadvantage and will need whatever extra skills we could get. During WW II all of the Allies best were trained in some form of H2H / silent killing. The British trained groups of common towns people secretly who would harrass the Germans if they invaded and occupied. Things like silently taking out guards might be completely necessary in a revolutionary situation.

Also, you admitted yourself we will be out gunned and out ammo&#39;ed. Wouldn&#39;t it be nice to atleast have a chance to do something if there&#39;s a gun in your face?

Plus, the very fact that that imperiallist soldiers train in some form of unarmed combat themselves should be convincing enough that we ought to know something.

We need to think of martial arts / self-defense as only a small aspect of our necessary training. We&#39;ve got to know how to shoot (get to your local firing range), we need to know how to print papers in fucked up conditions, we need to learn about explosives, poisons, gasses, chemicals, technology, outdoor survival, construction, medicine, etc. etc. the list goes on and on; and of course certain comrades will specialize in certain knowledge.

JMO, though. :)

[Rollo]

Marcel I&#39;m already an ace shot with hand guns, bows and crossbows. I have an old style printer that can print in any condition, I&#39;ve been playing with explosives since I was 10 so that&#39;s an easy one for me, poisons gasses and chemicals are also another of my not so specialties, I know how to use a poison and a gas but not how to make it. Outdoor survival IS my specialty. Drop me off in my native rainforest and I&#39;ll know exactly what plants and insects to eat to survive :P.

[Comrade Marcel]

You rock&#33; ;)

I think I am going to buy a couple of rifles/shotguns since the Konservative government has changed the law in Kanada and you no will apparently no longer need to register long guns, SKS guns are cheap too, thanks China&#33; :lol:

[Rollo]

Yeah we&#39;re not aloud guns over here so I own and operate crossbows and bows. Over the years I&#39;ve become quite deadly with both :P.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 07:46 AM
Yeah we&#39;re not aloud guns over here so I own and operate crossbows and bows. Over the years I&#39;ve become quite deadly with both :P.
What about for hunting / target sport? Is there no way you can get registered rifles or anything even?

[heavymanners]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 04:12 AM
Here are the martial arts clubs available currently at the Students Union at the university I am joining later this month, i.e. they will be in very easy walking distance, being in the same building where I would be sleeping.

...Judo (See above)

...Kickboxing (Gloves?)

Which of these is probably most worthwhile? Are any of them really worthwhile or should I try elsewhere regardless?
Take judo and kickboxing. They both have a solid training methodologies (i.e. you learn to apply techniques against a resisting opponent who is actually trying to fight back), proven and effective techniques, and will get you fit as well.

Judo and kickboxing/Muay Thai or western boxing and wrestling all have a lot less bullshit associated with them than the other options listed, and relatively short learning curves as well. Do them consistently for a year, and you&#39;ll be a better fighter than when you started out, unlike a lot of the other styles on your list.

Check out www.bullshido.com for critiques of all the nonsense/superstition/marketing/fantasy bullshit associated with &#39;martial arts&#39; in contemporary culture.

[pelemans]

If you want to learn how to "steet fight" go do kick boxing (thai boxing, Muay-Thai) here you will learn how to do all the punches and kicks. It is simple but hard. and that is what you want. It&#39;s point less to know some kind of flying kick if you just can kick so hard he wound&#39;t be abble to stand on his legs anymore

and ju jutsu, for all the breaking arms and disarming stuff, lot of cops get ju jutsu trainings.

The combination of ju jutsu and kickboxing is used by a lot of cage/free fighters. Witch kinda proofs there effectines.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The problem with a lot of martial arts is that it&#39;s very individualistic, or atleast taught that way, and as organizers we are constantly in groups. Which is why we need to learn not to just defend ourselves, but each other. We have to modify and learn other things that can be useful in collective formations.

I agree.

I think this was one of the biggest problems for the Japanese fighting of the mongol invasion of 1274. While the mongols worked and fought as one big group, the Japanese had a very individualistic training.

But Japan learned from these mistakes and by 1281, this problem was pretty much solved.

Taking this example to reality, we can look at how police/military always work in groups. A group that has trained on collective warfare is generally much more effective than another group that is just a bunch of seperated individuals. So we need to learn to fight as a group, not only as individuals, so the fight between us protestors/demonstrators and against the police/military etc. at least become more even.

[RedKnight]

For a simple self defense martial art, I&#39;d try Shinto Ryu Taijutsu . The only martial art which I have any personal experience in is Isshin Ryu Karate, which was at one time atleast used to train U.S. marines, but I do not particularly recomend it.

[Rollo]

Originally posted by Comrade Marcel+Sep 13 2006, 07:04 PM--> (Comrade Marcel @ Sep 13 2006, 07:04 PM)
[email protected] 13 2006, 07:46 AM
Yeah we&#39;re not aloud guns over here so I own and operate crossbows and bows. Over the years I&#39;ve become quite deadly with both :P.
What about for hunting / target sport? Is there no way you can get registered rifles or anything even? [/b]
Yeah but you have to get a liscence, have the liscence for * years, have a safe, have your house inspected and all a bunch of crap like that, so I just got some equally as dangerous and cheaper weapons.

[piet11111]

i would recommend you learn knife fighting techniques.
if your caught with bare hands your pretty much screwed as no amount of fancy kicks and punches will safe you from a knife in the chest.

some pointers
-experienced fighters do not lead with the knife
-experienced fighters will not leave the knife hand extended and allow you to aply a hold
-an experienced fighter will hit you with his free hand it is not paralyzed

also a knife is not an ice pick use it to stab

and fight to kill once you get your enemy to the ground make sure he stays down.
afterall its his mistake he picked a fight with you not the otherway around.

[Janus]

i would recommend you learn knife fighting techniques
Don&#39;t bring a knife to a gun fight.


if your caught with bare hands your pretty much screwed as no amount of fancy kicks and punches will safe you from a knife in the chest.
Disarmament is a key skill to learn in most martial arts. Besides, there are laws against the types of knifes you can carry around so having a pocket knife ain&#39;t gonna help all that much in a fight except to intimidate your opponent.

[Rollo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 04:22 PM
i would recommend you learn knife fighting techniques.
if your caught with bare hands your pretty much screwed as no amount of fancy kicks and punches will safe you from a knife in the chest.

some pointers
-experienced fighters do not lead with the knife
-experienced fighters will not leave the knife hand extended and allow you to aply a hold
-an experienced fighter will hit you with his free hand it is not paralyzed

also a knife is not an ice pick use it to stab

and fight to kill once you get your enemy to the ground make sure he stays down.
afterall its his mistake he picked a fight with you not the otherway around.
No, but if you&#39;re caught against a guy with a knife and you pull a gun no amount of knife fighting is going to save him.

[piet11111]

poeple carrying guns is extremely rare and as such knife fighting is a very good thing to pick up.

and disarmament is something you can easily forget in a knife fight against someone that knows what he/she is doing.
the opponent wont leave his knife hand extended for you to grab or kick.
and when exactly has the law ever stopped a revolutionary ?

[Rollo]

Ok then, I&#39;ll meet you somewhere you can bring a knife and I&#39;ll bring a gun and we will see who wins :P.

[subcal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 06:45 AM
Ok then, I&#39;ll meet you somewhere you can bring a knife and I&#39;ll bring a gun and we will see who wins :P.
back in the day (or year as it was) I&#39;ve seen well trained blokes get smashed with nikko pens (to simulate a knife attack) before they could draw thier holstered pistol.

So if your going to meet old mate, keep your distance.

[Rollo]

I was joking but in all honesty if I had say a 9mm pistol and my opponent had a meat cleaver and I was 5 feet away I&#39;de be able to shoot them before they got to me with the knife.

[Comrade Marcel]

I don&#39;t think carrying a pistol is realistic for most people on here, nor is it smart with rare exceptions.

If you knew for a fact someone was out to kill you, and that potentially they could be shooting you, or jumping you with weapons or a gang, then you might feel the need for a gun to protect your life.

This might be a reality for many people living in certain places in the world, some involved in lumpen activities and other in political activities. If I was a Union organizer in Colombia, you could bet your ass I would be carrying a Tec-9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tec-9).

But in places like KKKanada, the UK and NZ handguns are restricted. Right now in Kanada we just had a violent incident in Montreal, Quebec over exposed in the media, and we had this whole "summer of the gun" thing played out in the media with all the shootings in Toronto, and there is all this calling for stiffer gun sentences.

So, you get stopped by the pigs and they decide to search you, and your found carrying a gun the consequences are pretty shit weighed against the benefits.

[Janus]

poeple carrying guns is extremely rare
Depends what area you&#39;re talking about and who it is.

[Delirium]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 02:32 AM
Marcel I&#39;m already an ace shot with hand guns, bows and crossbows. I have an old style printer that can print in any condition, I&#39;ve been playing with explosives since I was 10 so that&#39;s an easy one for me, poisons gasses and chemicals are also another of my not so specialties, I know how to use a poison and a gas but not how to make it. Outdoor survival IS my specialty. Drop me off in my native rainforest and I&#39;ll know exactly what plants and insects to eat to survive :P.
I have serious doubts about anybody who brags about thier skills with explosives, poisons and gases on the internet.

Primitive survival is a worthwhile thing to learn especially when it comes to tracking and stalking which is usefull in a rural and urban environment. It also teaches a constant awareness of ones surroundings, which reduces your chance of you head being suddenly bashed in.

If you live in the united states i suggest buying a firearm strongly, Handguns are iffy though either you have to have it registerd and apply for a concealed carry permit, risk a felony firearms charge for carrying it around, or never take it off you property.

[Rollo]

I didn&#39;t say I was great with them, just know how to work them and it isn&#39;t like I&#39;m breaking any sort of laws. You ever see those guys on mythbusters that come in and do all the controlled explosions and stuff like that? For a long time I wanted to do that for a job but got quickly over it, still had all the know how tho.

[subcal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 05:26 PM
I was joking but in all honesty if I had say a 9mm pistol and my opponent had a meat cleaver and I was 5 feet away I&#39;de be able to shoot them before they got to me with the knife.
well the reach of an opponent is 3 ft, your reach is 2 ft in a brace position. It wouldn&#39;t take much of a deflect to move the muzzle.

With a simple turn, trap and stike you would be fucked even if you had the fire-arm in the loaded and pointed condition,

have nikko, will travel to test theory.

get a friend with a cap gun and get him to put on some over-alls or old clothes. See what the safe distance for a knife attack is.

A good video on this is shown to police in most states, its called "Surviving edged weapons".

Ranged edge weapons (such as ballistic knives, bows, crossbows and throwing stars / knives) are only touched on but I reccomend the film anyway.

If you can turn it up, then look for "On the edge; slices / slashes / stabbings on the streets&#39;. Its almost a medico docco for treating open wounds in an american emergency ward.

Since your such a myth buster, I am willing to test your theory against mine.

[RaiseYourVoice]

hi guys, i&#39;m moving in a few weeks and will than be looking for some new martial art. if anyone knows those already a few comments would be nice.

i found already posted in a martial arts forum, describing i want something with practical use for self defence. they told me in my area there are:

Bujikan (fighting with knives-ok, sticks-ok, but speers? sounds a little old fashioned to me)
Krav Maga (self defence system, seems to have lots of practical use. they also train cops and military guys there... is that good for knowing their style or bad as an atmosphere for me? xD)
Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu (hmm nice looking fighting style combined with effectivity?)

[piet11111]

krav maga as i understood is developed by the israeli&#39;s as a fighting style to quickly take out an opponent.
as i understand it they leave out the bull and stick to the usefull stuff.

so if i had to chose one krav maga would be it.
but i would also go for knife fighting lessons aswell

[Comrade Marcel]

Hey, were are you moving to?

Also, can you give more info on what Bujikan is? Are you sure you don&#39;t mean Bujinkan (a Ninjutsu organization) or Bajiquan (a style of short range Kung-Fu that was used by the Chinese Emporer&#39;s agents, Chiang Ka&#39;shieks bodyguards as well as Mao&#39;s bodyguards) AKA "The Bodyguard style"?

Knives and sticks are good to know; but your right spears are pretty pointless for on the street. I supposed you could have one at home, but otherwise it&#39;s more for show/excersise.

As for Krav Maga, there is a lot of reactionary shit attached to it&#39;s community. It was invented by a cop in the first place (on the one side he did help defend Jews from anti-Semitism), and is used by the Israeli military. Lots of cops like to take it.

One of my JKD instructors is a cop on the ETF, but I more or less keep my politics out of martial arts. I would suggest doing the same.

Would KM be useful? Yes, surely it&#39;s good to know what the cops know and also in general KM is good for self-defense and can be adapted to the kind of situations leftists and activists might find themselves in... On the down side, it is very much technique based with specific reactions practiced in repetition. This can be problematic IMO, unless KM schools find ways around this. This is from what I have read, observed and heard though. I&#39;ve never actually tried it.

Here is a critical article:
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=...warticle&id=174 (http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=174)

However, IMO you really should see for yourself. Just because that approach doesn&#39;t work for one persyn, doesn&#39;t me it won&#39;t for you.

As for Choy Lay Fut, there is a school in my city, and I would hold the same expectations from what I seen at that school; and that is they expect you to train hard and take it seriously well having fun. If you walk in there and see the teacher letting people slack without correcting them - and other such stuff - I would walk right back out the door.

[Comeback Kid]

As for Krav Maga, there is a lot of reactionary shit attached to it&#39;s community. It was invented by a cop in the first place (on the one side he did help defend Jews from anti-Semitism), and is used by the Israeli military. Lots of cops like to take it.


Maybe because its effective? It doesn&#39;t mattter who uses it as long as it works?

Does any one know a particular style that is suitable for streetfighting? I want to be able to defend myself not do a fuckin dance.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Oh yes sorry it was Bujinkan ^^&#39;

I asked the people on the martial arts forum about it and they said most krav maga schools leave the political side out of it. i guess i will just go check for myself

yea and about Choy Lay Fut, the people there told me its gonna be tough training and a strict but nice trainer too.

ah yes and i&#39;m moving to munich

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by Comeback [email protected] 3 2006, 03:31 AM
Maybe because its effective? It doesn&#39;t mattter who uses it as long as it works?


That could be possible, as I said I never tried it myself.

I have even heard boneheads on stormfront say that they take KM and it&#39;s good.

My argument is that I doubt any one martial art is the art for absolutely everyone. Everyone is at least slightly different, has different psychological attitudes towards fighting and self-defense, as well as different body structure, etc.


Does any one know a particular style that is suitable for streetfighting? I want to be able to defend myself not do a fuckin dance.

Just about anything would be helpful as compared to doing nothing at all. I think the most important thing is to compare what is available to your area. You may want to mix it up (2 or 3 styles, but I would not recommend training more than that at once), for example I am taking Systema, Jeet Kune Do and Submission Fighting (technique and eccentrism; striking, groundwork and grappling).

But if KM is availble to you, then definately it is designed for street scenerios when taught to civilians.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 07:22 AM
Oh yes sorry it was Bujinkan ^^&#39;

Bujinkan is a pretty reputable Ninjutsu organization, it&#39;s not run by some faker like Ashida Kim, but actually ran out of Tokyo by people with lineage.

A lot of people take Ninjustsu out of romanticism, culture and nostalgia. You would really have to decide for yourself what parts of it would be useful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan


I asked the people on the martial arts forum about it and they said most krav maga schools leave the political side out of it. i guess i will just go check for myself

What I have heard from a comrade is that a lot of their stuff focuses on scenerios, such as a white womyn being attacked by a black guy, etc. at least in the U&#036;. I haven&#39;t heard anything bad about it here, except that some comrades want to make sure not a single cent they spend would go towards the IDF. Most KM also have the Israeli flag hung up. I wouldn&#39;t recommend going in there wearing a Palestinian flag and/or a shirt that says "Intifada&#33;" on it or something like that. Just keep everything to yourself and obsorb what you find useful.


yea and about Choy Lay Fut, the people there told me its gonna be tough training and a strict but nice trainer too.

If you are ready to learn something like this, then go for it. It&#39;s not going to be somthing that will get you ready for the street in a quick 6 months, like KM is designed to. It&#39;s an art that requires a lot of work and discipline. Of course it will most likely make you a great fighter, but it depends on what your goals are.


ah yes and i&#39;m moving to munich

I&#39;m not familiar with what&#39;s available in Munich, but a major city like that must have more than 3 choices.

I know there is a German martial art called Anti Terror Kampf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_Terror_Kampf), which could be an alternative to KM if you could find it. There is also a style called Kampfringen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampfringen) which is based on anceint style that could be compared to an NHB (no holds barred) or MMA (mixed martial art), similiar to how the ancient Roman gladiators fought.

Let us know what you end up doing&#33;

[piet11111]

Originally posted by Comeback [email protected] 3 2006, 03:31 AM

As for Krav Maga, there is a lot of reactionary shit attached to it&#39;s community. It was invented by a cop in the first place (on the one side he did help defend Jews from anti-Semitism), and is used by the Israeli military. Lots of cops like to take it.


Maybe because its effective? It doesn&#39;t mattter who uses it as long as it works?

Does any one know a particular style that is suitable for streetfighting? I want to be able to defend myself not do a fuckin dance.
knife fighting :P

[Janus]

Eagle claw&#33; :P
http://www.yingjowpai.com/EAGLE%20CLAW%20COLOR%201.title.jpg


Does any one know a particular style that is suitable for streetfighting? I want to be able to defend myself not do a fuckin dance.

In the traditional martial arts, you have to learn form no matter what but the teacher will teach you real world combat techniques,etc. or at least show you how certain techniques will apply (it wasn&#39;t originally invented for show).

But if you&#39;re interested in only real world combat then there are various seld-defense courses you can take that are termed reality based martial arts.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

I&#39;m gonna take Krav maga, only problem is there are no schools in my county so I have to go all the way to birmingham.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

I&#39;m gonna take Krav maga, only problem is there are no schools in my county so I have to go all the way to birmingham.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 04:07 PM
I&#39;m gonna take Krav maga, only problem is there are no schools in my county so I have to go all the way to birmingham.
Let us know how it went...

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Originally posted by Comrade Marcel+Oct 5 2006, 06:57 PM--> (Comrade Marcel &#064; Oct 5 2006, 06:57 PM)
[email protected] 5 2006, 04:07 PM
I&#39;m gonna take Krav maga, only problem is there are no schools in my county so I have to go all the way to birmingham.
Let us know how it went...[/b]
I detect sarcasm.

[Sadena Meti]

I often thought some school should develop a "dirty fighting" martial art. Something the combine the best parts of various kung fu, jujitsu, whatever, but also integrate the use of cheap shots, broken beer bottles, fist loading, and sneaking up on someone in an alley with a baseball bat. The Kung Fu of the Gutter.

maybe it&#39;s just me


Any recommendations on something close to that?

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Originally posted by rev&#045;[email protected] 6 2006, 06:18 PM
I often thought some school should develop a "dirty fighting" martial art. Something the combine the best parts of various kung fu, jujitsu, whatever, but also integrate the use of cheap shots, broken beer bottles, fist loading, and sneaking up on someone in an alley with a baseball bat. The Kung Fu of the Gutter.

maybe it&#39;s just me


Any recommendations on something close to that?
that&#39;s pretty much krav maga.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by rev&#045;[email protected] 6 2006, 06:18 PM
I often thought some school should develop a "dirty fighting" martial art. Something the combine the best parts of various kung fu, jujitsu, whatever, but also integrate the use of cheap shots, broken beer bottles, fist loading, and sneaking up on someone in an alley with a baseball bat. The Kung Fu of the Gutter.
Personally I&#39;ve always felt that if you can "master" the "art" of dirty fighting then traditional martial arts become somewhat defunct. Those that I do know who practice various martial arts always remind me of some poor sod striking a Queensberry stance before a fight.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by TheDifferenceEngine+Oct 6 2006, 08:27 PM--> (TheDifferenceEngine &#064; Oct 6 2006, 08:27 PM)
rev&#045;[email protected] 6 2006, 06:18 PM
I often thought some school should develop a "dirty fighting" martial art. Something the combine the best parts of various kung fu, jujitsu, whatever, but also integrate the use of cheap shots, broken beer bottles, fist loading, and sneaking up on someone in an alley with a baseball bat. The Kung Fu of the Gutter.

maybe it&#39;s just me


Any recommendations on something close to that?
that&#39;s pretty much krav maga. [/b]
There is a style called "Gutter Fighting" by William E. Fairbairn. Its said he was a real dirty fighter, and he developed a Defensive style for police called "Defendu". Later, he created an offensive style for the military that he just called CQC (Close Quaters Combat). It was used by the allies in WW II, mostly the Brits and Kans, but some U&#036;. He trained agents out of camp x which was a secret facility ouside of Toronto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_Fighting

There is also another style called Defendo. The creator, Bill Underwood, invented Combato. It&#39;s interesting, because in this case he came up with the offensive version first, and then the defensive version later, the opposite of what Fairbairn did:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defendo

These are combatives. Krav Maga would also come in to this catogory. Systema as well. However, both of these are some what watered down for civilians.

There is a guy in Montreal that teaches some cools stuff, one of his trademark techniques is called "The Shredder":

http://www.senshido.com/swwd2.html

So, other than cobatives you might want to look into RBSD (Reality Based Self-Defense) systems like Senshido.

Whatever you do though, don&#39;t buy anything from Threat Response Solutions (TRS) as they are known for phony shit (though some of their stuff is ok). If you really want any tapes or DVDs make sure you check out the credentials first (or try to download them instead of paying).


I detect sarcasm.

No saracasm, I just think it is good for people to post their experiences so that we can learn from it as well. Like it or not, there is a lot of McDojos out there... even the KM ones.

[RaiseYourVoice]

&#39;m not familiar with what&#39;s available in Munich, but a major city like that must have more than 3 choices.

yes thats only what i got told on a german martial arts forum. i am moving there in 3 weeks so than i&#39;m going to check out what more there is. i am also planning to get in contact with the local antifa szene so maybe they know more.


I will most likely try out krav maga and the kung fu style. i dont know if its good to train both at the same time though. i really doubt you can combine them in battle so should i go for one only?

[bunk]

cross training is probably good. What style of Kung Fu is it - anyway i don&#39;t think it will be very similart to krav maga

[Comrade Marcel]

Train both at once. KM will give you good dirty fighting and quick self-defense tactics. Also, KM will have some ground work which Choy Li Fut will be lacking...

CLF will give you power, balance, speed, etc. It&#39;s based on five animal styles so you can learn some eccentric stuff that people wouldn&#39;t expect.

Here is some more info:

http://www.hongluck.org/choi-lee-fut-styles.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choy_Li_Fut

There is also some videos on the site of the CLF place here in Toronto:

http://www.hongluck.org/gallery.html

[2ormore]

wu shu,tae kwondo.
:mellow:
what the hell?

[KappaDelta]

Before you shell out cash for anything other than Gunmanship classes, you should probably ask yourself what your particular style of fighting is. Like a fingerprint, everybody has their own unique threat response, and you should play to the strengths of your own inherent moves. No point in wasting time on something that won&#39;t work very well, right? I, for example, took Shotokan classes for a few months as a young child, but none of it really stuck with me. In the fights I&#39;ve gotten into, and in the MMA fightclub-esque brawls I&#39;ve set up over the past few years, my most success has been a combination Submission Wrestling and &#39;Hard&#39; Kung Fu, such as Shaolin and Wing Chun.
If you like to beat on people and keep them off of you with kicks and punches, take Muay Thai Kickboxing. If you feel most natural taking somebody down from the clinch, Jiujitsu may be the thing for you. The most important thing to realize is that nobody is wired exactly the same. You may truly not be able to throw an effective punch - perhaps your grappling is above average.
The point being: train in the things that you actually do in a fight, and strengthen them. Taking Jiujitsu won&#39;t help you much if you always have the urges to take your opponent down with a haymaker.

[pastradamus]

I&#39;ve always been involved in fighting from an early age. I currently do Boxing, Muay thai and brazilian Ju-jitsu. But I&#39;ve tried Krav Maga, Tae-Kwon do and Kung-fu and I found them all to be time consuming and unpractical. I would recomend people find a good Muay thai School and try that. The problem is that In America its very poorly taught, and has become commercialised and fake like kick-boxing.

[Cult of Reason]

I am back&#33;

I have joined 5 martial arts clubs at my uni:

Karate Shotokan, Karate Do Shotokai, Muay Thai, Wing Chun and Wu Shu Kwan (Chinese Boxing).

I am very aware of the lack of grappling, however I have met some people who are thinking of setting up a Brazilian Ju-Jitsu club, which might be interesting.

Any comments?

[KappaDelta]

Have you thought of just joining the Collegiate Wrestling team? It&#39;ll really help you understand the basics of grappling and put them into practical use fairly quickly. Obviously, due to the necessity of keeping the wrestlers alive, the wrestling team won&#39;t let you strike people or bare choke, but the foundation for good wrestling is there, and the focus is on it, solely.

[Comrade Marcel]

Problem with joining the wrestling team, is he would have to be in super-duper shape, would he not? Also, wouldn&#39;t the only let him join if he was also on the wrestling team in high school?

Haraldur: The only problem I could forsee is that you might start running out of time to do all five and your studies, but if that&#39;s not a problem then keep going&#33;

[randomorder]

Wing Chun with Muay Thai is pretty lethal.

Wing Chun is excellent for defence, low energy fighting with the idea that you explode when you get the chance, and the viciousness of Muay Thai fits in well there, to study both at once will be hardcore.

Karate is bye the bye, big sweeping movements to make blocks or attacks, waste a lot of energy when all you need to do is offset the attack as in Wing Chun.

I would drop the 2 lots of Karate at least, you&#39;re there to study at the end of the day.

[subcal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 01:26 am
Wing Chun with Muay Thai is pretty lethal.


The five ancestors would agree

[randomorder]

Both involve getting the shit kicked out of you though in training :wacko:

Guess that&#39;s the only benefit of Karate, but then again if you get into a fight and have been knocked around before, you won&#39;t be shocked by being hit - which can be handy.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Bojewoje.

Red army combatives.

[Bolshevist]

I would recommend Krav Maga. It is not a martial art, but a self defense system so it has lots of "cool" stuff you won&#39;t learn from your karate teacher like how to poke in people&#39;s eyes, knife and gun attacks, sensitive spots in the body. Most people who have been victims to violence has frozen up or haven&#39;t used karate etc at all because they react instinctively and not in the kata way etc but Krav Maga teaches people to react instinctively to self defense I would go for that

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 04:11 pm
I would recommend Krav Maga. It is not a martial art, but a self defense system so it has lots of "cool" stuff you won&#39;t learn from your karate teacher like how to poke in people&#39;s eyes, knife and gun attacks, sensitive spots in the body. Most people who have been victims to violence has frozen up or haven&#39;t used karate etc at all because they react instinctively and not in the kata way etc but Krav Maga teaches people to react instinctively to self defense I would go for that
I&#39;ve done Krav Maga before. For about 7-8 months and I must say its a heap of crap. Its glorified karate. There are some pretty cool sneaky move&#39;s involved but overall it sucks ass. I was there 6 months before I learned anything of use.


I dont believe Krav maga really teaches anybody how to react under attack as the persons instinct usually dictates. I believe that if you react promptly and agressively you will overcome any attack no matter how vicious (take my word for it, I got bottled once & stabbed twice).

At the moment I practice BJJ (excellant for ground work), Boxing (I always did it, my dad was a coach), Muay thai ( best Standing up martial art out there).
Although I still admire wing chun and fu lung chun from what I&#39;ve heard it takes a long time to learn little in these disciplings.

I also did TKD before and I felt it was only good for fast yet soft kicks and was only useful on unexperienced fighters.

Im of the belief that a person who practices Brazilian ju-jitsu & Muay thai is a recipe for destruction.....Just look at all the UFC & Pride guys who use that mix.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Its got to be Muay THai boxing. Its the best, practical, easy and good fitnnes.
I train with the WPT lot. Thai low round house is the most painful kick in the world

[Comrade Marcel]

pastradamus: Is it possible the Krav Maga you took was just a lousy school? I have also heard mixed reviews of KM.

TheDifferenceEngine: Can you give more info about Bojewoje and Red army combatives?

[Kleng]

If you want to fight for fun or as a sport you should go for muay thai or tea kwon do. If you just want to learn selfdefence nothing beats krav maga. It&#39;s not played as a sport like most other martial arts, but is 100% ment to prepare you for real fighting. You learn how to deal with worst case scenarios like beeing outnumbered and facing armed opponents, and you learn to deal as mutch damage as possible without those silly rules of other martial arts.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 13, 2006 01:14 am
TheDifferenceEngine: Can you give more info about Bojewoje and Red army combatives?
Bojewoje IS red army combatives, I can&#39;t provide much info beyond the fact that it&#39;s a combination of jujitsu, karate and standard combatives.

I tried googleing it but all the links were in german.

[RaiseYourVoice]

SAMBO ist eine in Europa entwickelte Kampfkunst. Sie wurde nicht über Jahrhunderte entwickelt, sondern stellt ein Derivat aus verschiedenen Kampfkünsten (u.a. Judo, Karate, Jujutsu, Ringen, Sumo, Aikido und Kickboxen) dar. Der Begriff SAMBO setzt sich aus den russischen Worten SAMosaschtschita Bes Orushia zusammen. Es bedeutet soviel wie: „Selbstschutz ohne Waffen“.
In den zwanziger Jahren suchte die Rote Armee nach einem geeigneten Kampfstil, um ihre Spezialeinheiten im Nahkampf auszubilden. Dabei stellte man fest, dass die "traditionellen" Arten der Selbstverteidigung für den militärischen Einsatz ungeeignet waren (zeitlicher Aufwand, der für die Ausbildung aufgewendet werden muss, zu hoch / die meisten Techniken konnten nicht in militärischen Kampfanzügen und entsprechender Ausrüstung durchgeführt werden). Die Zielrichtung des Militärs bestand aber darin, Techniken zu finden, die einfach zu erlernen, leicht durchführbar und effizient sind. Der in dieser Nahkampftechnik ausgebildete Soldat sollte in der Lage sein, seinen Gegner möglichst schnell und effektiv kampfunfähig zu machen. Diese Ursprungsform nennt man „BOJEWOJE SAMBO". „BOJEWOJE SAMBO" wird auch heute noch in den Armeen der ehemaligen Sowjetunion praktiziert.
Für die Selbstverteidigung und den Selbstschutz trainiert man die Variante COMBAT SAMBO. Als Sportler erlernen wir das BORBA SAMBO.

Translation

SAMBO is a Martial Art developed in europe. It wasnt developed over hundreds of years, but is a mixture bewteen various martial arts.(e.g. Judo, Karata, Jujutsu, Wrestling, Sumo, Aikido and kickboxing). The term SAMBO derives from the russian words SAMosaschtschita Bes Orushia. It means something like "self defence without weapons". In the 20s the Red Army was searching for a way of fighting to train their Special units in close range combat. They learned that traditional martial arts werent fit for military purposes (too much time needed to use them, many were not usable with military equipment). The aim of the Red Army was to find techniques which are easy to learn, fast to use and effeciant. The soldier trained was supposed to be able to take down an enemy fast and effective. This pure form is what you call "BOJEWOJE SAMBO". For self-defence you call it "COMBAT SAMBO" and as a sport you call it "BORBA SAMBO"

[Rollo]

I recently got back into cadets and It&#39;s been great thus far. Been doing more armed combat this time around learning how to use your gun in close quarters.

[antifa_marxist]

Thing is like this, in a street based figth there is no rules. there fore the best defence i weapons as knifes, knuckle dusters or batons. ( defensive mace or teargas is ineffective beacause you allways ends up getting it in your face during the figth.) but this is not really what this thread was about, in street combat it&#39;s not likely you would face just one opponent, also most of the figths ends up someone on the ground. You need an easy but effective system which allows you to stand your ground while standing up and are also effective in ground fighting.
Muay thai is an excellent technique were you only train kicks( such as frontkicks, roundhouse, sidekicks etc.) boxing techniques and elbow and knees.
of my own experience that kungfu mumbo jumbo is ineffective.

In groundfigthing you should try out Brazilian jiu-jutsu, the russian system sambo, or shootfigthing.

two-three years of training and a knife makes you pretty deadly.

[Jhé]

Wing Chun, why? because it is the only form of martial art developed by a female.

[Dr Mindbender]

I cant be bothered to look but has anyone mentioned nin-jutsu yet? I did it for about a year and a half when i lived in England (i got up to green belt) but had to stop because i came back to norn iron and theres no dojo over here. Its a good martial art cause it seems to be the only one that teaches you specifically how to avoid getting injured and you get to say that youre a &#39;ninja&#39; how cool is that? :D

[rebelworker]

I have been doing Doce Pares for a couple of yeasr with a really street orientated instructor, its perfect.

It a school of mixed philipino styles (and because the philipines is a trading center it borrows alot from all asian styles.

It involes empty hand blocking and striking, knife and stick with a bit of grappling and joint and bone breaks, gouges and choking.

Once a month we do a specialized half day workshop, last month was baseball bat, this month was folding knife specialization, i think next month is more knife.

We work on wearing street clothes, legal implications, what pavement will feel like and most importantly thinking about multiple attackers.

I would look for a Doce Pares school in your area, its getting quite popular in north america and is what many cops use to train with for batons ( we work with both lixed stick and retractable batons.).

If anyone in the montreal are is interste PM me i know a really cheap and good school.

And dont forget anarchist MMA fighter Jeff Monson is up for the UFC title this saturday.
He wears his politics on his sleeve and it would be good for the movement if he wins.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by Don [email protected] 14, 2006 04:50 pm
Wing Chun, why? because it is the only form of martial art developed by a female.
There are other forms of Wushu that have been created by a womyn, but you&#39;re right that&#39;s a good thing to point out. :)

[Comrade Marcel]

I&#39;ll second what rebelworker said, almost all the Fillipino styles are pretty good and great for learning practical weapons like sticks/knives.

I took a bit of empty hand FMA / Kali as well as some knife.

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 13, 2006 01:14 am
pastradamus: Is it possible the Krav Maga you took was just a lousy school? I have also heard mixed reviews of KM.
The school I went to was in Dublin and was one of the top KM institutions in Europe.I joined up feeling excited and interested but after a while I became pesimestic as it felt I wasn&#39;t learning much and wasting my time & money.

[Vyru]

I used to do Tae Kwon Do, I found it quite rewarding, but i gave up &#39;cause gradings bored me to hell.

I also attended a medieval weapon martial art school (Longsword, and shortsword + buckler.) That really helped me with confidence issues I was suffering at the time.

But for plain ol&#39; asskicking, I&#39;ve taught myself (And a couple members of my family ;) ) Basic self defence and offence methods, and they work pretty well. Both my 9 year old neice can get me in a headlock, which, frankly, fucking hurts.

[luxemburg89]

Hey i do taekwondo at the moment. Yeah Gradings are crap - i left cos of them but came back cos the lessons were really good. we don&#39;t do that much traditional stuff and you meet loads of people at tournaments

[-Xu-]

I&#39;ve only ever done Karate and Ju Jitsu, although Im planning to take a new one up.
Karate&#39;s pretty much useless ina real fight, and though most of the throws in Ju-Jitsu are inpractical alot of the locks and close quarters stuff is really useful.

[RaiseYourVoice]

ok i finnaly got started on krav maga. i went there for 2 weeks now and i really enjoy it.
its decent 1on1 fighting because both of my trainers have a kickboxing backround, its easy and fast techniques and above all its really nasty. we train hitting/kicking below the belt, biting using whatever is around us to get the enemy of us. we also do some sparing fights after we had some more training.


there are basically only two restrictions... dont exceed self defence according to the law of your country and decide what measures you can justify (e.g. if you hit against the neck, be prepared your opponent could die)

i will be back to post some more experiance after i had some more lessons

[Rollo]

I started capoeira a few days ago, it&#39;s the most fun I&#39;ve had with a martial art in a long time.

[Honggweilo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 06:21 am
I started capoeira a few days ago, it&#39;s the most fun I&#39;ve had with a martial art in a long time.
Capoeira is total ownage, i took a couple of lessons this summer with some brazillian comrades :D. I love the history of the sport too, being a martial art used by slaves against their fuedal imperialist opressors, and disguising it as a dance.

[RASHskins]

Muay Thai man it is very effective form of martial art.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:13 am
Muay Thai man it is very effective form of martial art.
What makes you come to this conclusion?

[RASHskins]

Because i have used it in fight&#39;s before and easily beat people. No i don&#39;t go around attacking people it was in self defence. And because when you train in it you do actual sparring all the time, and no not just if you touch them you get a point, sparring where if you don&#39;t block you eat a punch in the face.