anti-cop

[homeo_apathy]

are most people here anti-cop ?
is the true purpose of polis social control and system sustainment. As opposed to fighting crime...
At demonstrations that turn violent, riot police are brought in..is this to defend property/people or ..suppress any potential rebellion

[Clarksist]

I am very anti-police.

Not every cop is evil or something, some even want to truly pursue justice. However, they are pawns to something they cannot change.


is the true purpose of polis social control and system sustainment. As opposed to fighting crime...

They are there for fighting crime. That is what they do.

The problem is, "crime" is what the state says it is. And all true leftists disagree with some (if not most) of the laws the state has.

Thus, the police are aggressive towards leftists. Its all a function of the state.

[apathy maybe]

^What he said^

All cops are scum or become scum. If they are not scum when the join, they become scum or leave.

Police are the visible violence inherent in the state system. You cannot have laws and state without police.

(See my single blog post, fuck the police.)

[homeo_apathy]

ow nice blog...very insightful :P

[KC]

The police are an institution used by the ruling class to protect property interests.

[Vargha Poralli]

here in india most people think policemen are just uniformed criminals . :blush:

[apathy maybe]

Uniformed criminals is a good description in many places.

In a country where there is not a strong judicial system, the cops will be corrupt. They are likely to be corrupt where there is a strong judicial system also, just less so or more likely to get caught.

Cops also have a lot of power that is not "legititmate" power. This is the power to, for example, arrest a person and then release them without charge. Arrest them and then drop the charge/s before a court date and so on. They can harrase with impunity, unless of course you belong to the ruling class in which case they will get into shit.

(Whoops, I thought my blog was actually more insightful then that! I link to a post I've made instead. http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...entry1291975471 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=36477&st=125&#entry1291975471) )

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Well I wouldn't go to the extreme that most of you have gone, but I do think that the police often make situations worse. However, most cops (at least here in NYC) are normal people who think they can make a difference and clean up their neighborhood. Of course it doesn't really work out like that.

[bcbm]

ACAB.

[which doctor]

I've only encountered police talking to me about illegal activities twice. Both times I was not doing anything illegal. One time I was in a car with my brother who was speeding and the cop started asking rhetorical questions to me and harassing me.

The other time I was rather young and it was spring break. I was in my grandparents town and I decided to take my dog for a walk into town. The local schools in town were still in session. When I was walking a police car pulled in front of the sidewalk blocking my way. He started asking me all these questions about why I wasn't in school. I tried to explain to him that I went to a different school but he wasn't buying the story. He finally managed to move on when he got a call to go somewhere else.

So, everytime I've encountered a cop doing his/her job, they've been a complete dick!

[Postteen]

Not every single cop is an arsehole - that would be a generalization- but as a whole police are criminals in uniforms.They are paid to kill people, to protect properties, to catch people who stole banks(!!) etc.

However i see a new current, especially in my country which is very alarming.More and more teenagers go to army&cops school because they will be paid immediately and they will have a sure job.So all these teens, who arent fascists really, they are apolitical mostly, become cops and join the army.And I wonder, can they be transformed into criminals?
In the old days cops used to be fascists and right-wingers but now i think things have changed.People go there to feed their families..I dont know if they really want to kill innocents..

Anyway, i see police as a cruel foundation of the state.And the things they do for a living will always be same even if the people who become cops change.

[Phugebrins]

I'm a little sceptical of the vitriolic reation to the police. Of course, it's a justified reaction to when the police break up or outright attack peaceful protests. But to a greater or lesser extent, when we each go to our respective workplaces, we're all serving the interests of capital or enforcing the will of the ruling class. The police are just the people you can point to.
And I think ill-feeling towards anyone who's put on a uniform will only guarantee that the police will treat socialists poorly, given the chance. Better to remind them that we're standing up for their rights was workers, too, if they just give *us* the chance.

[Delta]

The primary purpose of the police's existence is to protect property and privilege.

[YSR]

And I think ill-feeling towards anyone who's put on a uniform will only guarantee that the police will treat socialists poorly, given the chance.

Yeah, I'm sure that's why they target us. Because we talk mean about them behind their backs.

[which doctor]

Sure some police may seem like nice people, or that they are fighting for justice.

But in the end, they are our enemies. They protect the bourgeois from the discontent masses.

[MrDoom]

Originally posted by Lenin
One man with a gun can control one hundred without one.
Police and military are just enforcers. Helping people is secondary.

[unema-]

Sure some police may seem like nice people, or that they are fighting for justice.
NOT ONE, two of my uncles are cops and I absolutely cannot stand their arragonce. All their brothers(my other uncles) are down to earth and enjoy talking to me about life, politics, what have you. But the two cops/ ex marines are just arrogant pricks, I have no sypathy for anyone of them. If there was a nice child nazi that didnt know better would you say oh hes ok? Hell no, fuck em all.


Police and military are just enforcers. Helping people is secondary.Exactly...bad example but watch one episode of the popular show COPS and tell me how many ppl they help...its a joke.

[KC]

The primary purpose of the police's existence is to protect property and privilege.

That is a tautology. Protecting property is protecting privilege.


NOT ONE, two of my uncles are cops and I absolutely cannot stand their arragonce. All their brothers(my other uncles) are down to earth and enjoy talking to me about life, politics, what have you. But the two cops/ ex marines are just arrogant pricks, I have no sypathy for anyone of them. If there was a nice child nazi that didnt know better would you say oh hes ok? Hell no, fuck em all.

He's not saying they're ok. He's just saying they're not all "arseholes", which is true. I've run into cops that are cool and will just give us a verbal warning and say they have to do something because it's their job, in a situation where they could've ticketed us. Of course, when it comes down to their job they will write that ticket up without hesitation.

[rioters bloc]

ive had a coupla people come up to me randomly during protests saying that they used to be a cop, but then one day they got tired of beating down on people who were speaking out on things that they believed in as well, and so they quit.

the decent ones will do that.

[apathy maybe]

Exactly RB. If they didn't leave though, they would become scum.

Redstar2000 said something once along the lines of, when the revolution comes all the 'good' cops and military would have left. The only ones left are the real scum. We don't have to worry about shooting them.

[Hiero]

I wouldn't say that individual police are jerks. On a one on one level some cops are ok, they try to help kids, turn up to youth events, want to be freindly with the community. I think most people who become cops have the idea that they will be a positive force.

Though as an institution they enforce the reactionary laws of the bourgeois. There actions are to comfort the bourgeois and middle class. In NSW 2005, there were two small "riots". One was in a Aboriginal comunity which resulted after years of police oppression in the community, which eventually involved the chasing of a young boy to his death. The second incident was a car chase, which two boys (who were well known to the police) died when they crashed into a tree. These indicidents increased the tension between the communities and the police, and a riot in both cases followed.

The response from the large middle class community was disgust that the police had allowed the riots to occur. They did not care or even acknowledge that there were tensions between community and police. They admit actions of the state government and opposition was to increase police force and have a faster police reaction to any riots.

In this way we see that the police are used here to appease the middle class. So the police can never fix the social and economical problems found in these communities. All they can do is for the time being, make sure these problems do not cause trouble for the middle class community.

In relation to the new work "choice" laws in Australia, an Archbishop (hope i used the correct title) said that police are going to find themselves in conflicting situation. They are required to fullfil their role to enforce the law, and with the new reforms this may require arresting workers for actions which were once normal trade union buisness.

So both cases show the contradiction between the police and the working class. Police act the laws of the ruling class. In Socialism, the proletariat will be writing the laws, and the police will be acting against reactionaries and class enemies.

It isn't the fact that cops may be jerks that make them oppressive. FOB's case is rather pathetic arguement against the police. Because it does not deal with class issues, rather a personal clash with police. It doesn't highlight the underlying cause why Police institution is oppressive and reactionary. Which is the fact the enforce the laws of a reactionary class. So we should oppose any extension to police powers and numbers. We should rather promote community and working class organisation, employement and cultural programs as the solution to overcoming social pathalogies.

[Phugebrins]

"If they didn't leave though, they would become scum."
Ever heard of this idea called "wage slavery"?

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 09:46 PM
"If they didn't leave though, they would become scum."
Ever heard of this idea called "wage slavery"?
Police are parasitic class. They do not perform a productive function, their labour is not paid because they produce a product. They only enforce law. In revolution cops wont rebel and nationalise. Rather they will be defeated and revolutionised to perfom duel roles. One role is to police the reactionaries and the class enemies. The second role is for them to have a productive function. Community building or something. Whatever needs to be done, but workers do not have the time for. The same goes for the army.

I answered your question assuming you meant they were wage slaves (workers) who need to be liberated.

[Phugebrins]

What I mean is that we can't just make sweeping judgements about the characters of policemen based on whether they've quit their job. Wage-slavery doesn't just mean that workers are deprived of some of the fruits of their labour, but also of their choice. If there's a job going, you take it. If you've got a job, you don't throw it away. That's how most people have to survive under capitalism - that's why we oppose it in the first place. We can't just turn around and say 'it's a free country - you didn't have to join the police if you didn't want to!' - because down that road lies 'you *chose* to be a prostitute', 'if you're going to do a job like coal-mining, what do you expect but lung disease', 'you chose not to be a high-paid executive', and 'third-world countries are poor because they all choose to live in poverty'.

Now, that's not to say that the police as an institution aren't there to defend the privelege of the few. But vitually no policeman sees it that way: at worst, they're indoctrinated, and, at best, they're unwilling wage-slaves. For our part, we can either choose to exterminate anyone in a blue helmet, or we can try to undermine the indoctrination, and persuade the willing to do what they can to hinder the oppressive tendencies of the powerful, with the ultimate aim of getting them to stand with us rather than against us.

[apathy maybe]

The police force as an institution is corrupt, dictatorial and hierarchical. By its very nature people exposed to that environment are more likely to become, corrupt, dictatorial and so on. It is not the fault of the individual, but rather the culture of the organisation they join.

And thus I stand by my statement, if a good person joins the police force, they either leave or become scum.

That has nothing to do with the reasons the wanted to join in the first place, or why it might be hard for them to leave.

[Phugebrins]

Ah, I was assuming you meant that all good people would choose to leave. However, if you're arguing that the institution corrupts every employee, I will simply have to politely disagree.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Police here, if they "suspect" you have drugs, they can pull of your pants and boxer shorts and then inspect your anus with their fingers.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by Phugebrins+--> (Phugebrins)Ah, I was assuming you meant that all good people would choose to leave. However, if you're arguing that the institution corrupts every employee, I will simply have to politely disagree.[/b]The good people will leave, or be corrupted. Yes. You are quite welcome to disagree, what do you think would happen?


NWOG
Police here, if they "suspect" you have drugs, they can pull of your pants and boxer shorts and then inspect your anus with their fingers.WTF? That is bullshit, where is that? Mind you that is an example of really stupid laws if that is legal, and the police are just enforcing it as it were.

Fuck the police.

[Phugebrins]

"You are quite welcome to disagree, what do you think would happen?"
I think a lot of people who go into the police - particularly in western nations where police aren't corrupt (in the 'accepting direct bribes' sense, before anyone makes any comment) - who go the police in the belief that they're just there to prevent one person hurting another will just continue along their daily lives and do what they're told. Since the majority of the time, they're not beating up protesters, they're arresting violent drunks, trying to mediate complaints, or just being visible, they'll not "become scum". But without any class consciousness or whatever you want to call it, they'll follow orders when told to break up a protest. They probably won't like it, but they'll hold their tongue and stand firm, particularly if the protest is in any way hostile to them - they'll end up justifying it as defensive. But I think they'll feel some remorse.

If, on the other hand, we can elicit enough sympathy, if we can get them de-isolated, and offer some solidarity, and, above all, always hold out to them the option, worker to worker, to stand aside, then we can avoid a lot of harm.

Some, of course, will become completely indoctrinated and reactionary. I don't deny that. But I don't think it's fair to consider every policeman as a potential target.

[homeo_apathy]

i had to run from police the other day, for skating in a public school....a bit extreme..they are always awfully suspicious about anyone with a skateboard.

my initial question was regarding the police as an instituition, not the indivual people invoved in it, but i's all relative
thanks for answering though, very helpful...

[Karl Marx's Camel]

WTF? That is bullshit, where is that? Mind you that is an example of really stupid laws if that is legal, and the police are just enforcing it as it were.

Fuck the police.

Norway.

[Sabocat]

And I think ill-feeling towards anyone who's put on a uniform will only guarantee that the police will treat socialists poorly, given the chance.

Tell me when in history, pigs have ever treated socialists anything other than poorly? How many times have pigs violently broken worker strikes?

[Phugebrins]

"Tell me when in history, pigs have ever treated socialists anything other than poorly? How many times have pigs violently broken worker strikes?"
Your point being?

[An archist]

My stepdad used to be a cop before I knew him.
Until he realised what a total dick he was when he was in uniform.

[LuXe]

Cant say I agree with; "Cops are bastards..." and so on.

The regular police-officer is a nice guy, but the system is not nice. There is a very definite line between a person and the system.

As NWOG said, police here in Norway can do some nasty things :P

But the police-man defined by the system he protects, that I do not support.

[KC]

I think a lot of people who go into the police - particularly in western nations where police aren't corrupt (in the 'accepting direct bribes' sense, before anyone makes any comment)

:lol:


The regular police-officer is a nice guy, but the system is not nice.

Nice until you're striking. Then he's the one shooting at you with rubber bullets. Still think he's nice?

[LuXe]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 4 2006, 03:58 PM

The regular police-officer is a nice guy, but the system is not nice.

Nice until you're striking. Then he's the one shooting at you with rubber bullets. Still think he's nice?
Well. You se, the system makes him do it. The system is not good.

Ps; rubber bullets hurts real bad, yes :P

[KC]

Well. You se, the system makes him do it. The system is not good.

He is the system.

[Phugebrins]

"He is the system."
He's no more the system than you or I (unless you're living in an independent self-sufficient commune). The system is capitalism.

[LuXe]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 5 2006, 02:03 PM

Well. You se, the system makes him do it. The system is not good.

He is the system.
Ok. You are right, in a way.

He REPRESENTS the system. He as a person, is not the system... As an individual mind.

[The Grey Blur]

Cops are enemies of the working-class, always have, always will be


ACAB.
Mm-hmm

[KC]

He's no more the system than you or I (unless you're living in an independent self-sufficient commune). The system is capitalism.

Certainly not. Just because we're all members of capitalist society doesn't mean we all contribute equally to the maintaining of that society. The cop is a position held by a human being. The fact that it is a human being holding this position becomes completely irrelevant when they are "doing their job". They cease to belong to the system as many of us do, and effectively become the system (or, to be clearer, a part of it). They are defenders of the system, and are there to make sure that the system remains as it is, that property relations are protected and that class warfare is diminished while exploitation continues.

[FinnMacCool]

Believe it or not, I actually have some friends who are cops.

So of course the whole idea of ACAB is simply retarded.

Its like saying all terrorists are bastards.

[LuXe]

However they are individuals they too... A system is not a person. They laugh, they cry and they fight. As do we.

As individuals, I know ONE police officer. He as a person in his home is a rather nice man. Even though he knows im a communist, he doesnt care.. Hes quite busy with fighting crime, such as robbers, thief, investigate break ins, rapes, and solve some disputes.

And I have talked to this man myself. He says this.

Maybe the police officers here in Norway are more tolerant/better individuals?

[KC]

However they are individuals they too... A system is not a person. They laugh, they cry and they fight. As do we.

And my whole point has been that that doesn't matter. They can be sad about shooting protestors, but regardless of how they feel they're still going to do it. I don't care how a cop feels.

"You shot and killed my friend!"
"But I feel really bad about it!"

:rolleyes:

[LuXe]

I know. But the norwegian police doesnt shoot people..

Hell... They barely shot some robbers taking money from a central in the famous "NOKAS" case... Probably because the cops had revolvers and the "robbers" had ag3's... xD