SWP - Political Crossroads

[Sandanista]

Im lookin for a bit of advice, im thinking of leaving the SWP to join the SPGB and want to know if anyone (mainly british comrades) can give me any arguments against joinin the SPGB.

This is not definate and i know they have a pretty bad reputation so give me proper theoretical reasons not to join, dont just say "they're a little pointless sect" etc etc.

[YKTMX]

Quote: from Sandanista on 4:17 pm on July 29, 2003
Im lookin for a bit of advice, im thinking of leaving the SWP to join the SPGB and want to know if anyone (mainly british comrades) can give me any arguments against joinin the SPGB.

This is not definate and i know they have a pretty bad reputation so give me proper theoretical reasons not to join, dont just say "they're a little pointless sect" etc etc.

Why are you thinking of leaving the SWP comrade?

[Sandanista]

No democracy within the party, too opportunistic, too many reformists...

[YKTMX]

Quote: from Sandanista on 6:07 pm on July 29, 2003
No democracy within the party, too opportunistic, too many reformists...

Well, I've never met any reformists within the SWP, but if you say so. I'm not actually a member so I wouldn't know about the lack of democracy or the "oppurtunism".

[Sandanista]

at marxism the place was rife with them, even chris bambery was talkin like one

[YKTMX]

Quote: from Sandanista on 6:31 pm on July 29, 2003
at marxism the place was rife with them, even chris bambery was talkin like one

You thought so? I thought it was particuarly good this year. I don't think anyone could call Bamberry a reformist, but I'd need to hear what he said.

[Kez]

Sandista, christ man! dont join SPGB, the youngest member they have is 70! no joke man

take a look at all the groups, look at their historical analysis, chat to their members and see what you think.

At least your taking a progressive stance in leaving the SWP, however dont rush into joining any old group just to see its theoretically bankrupt.

as i am a member of socialist appeal, id of course advise you to read out periodical, however, im also on chat and id like to know your opinion of all the groups there are. Good thing is you have a good understanding of trotskyism now, so no-one can bullshit you easily.

[stonerboi]

Sandanista, I can understand why you are thinking of leaving the SWP. I am saying this as an ex-SWP member who left in March of this year.

Before joining a new group, you must ask yourself one important question.

What do you want form any new party you join? ie:

* What type of ideology do you want? Do you believe in the 'state capitalist' theory of the SWP? I do not think many other leftist parties believe in it.

* Do you want to join a revolutionary party or one that is reformist and participates in elections? The SWP, SP, AWL, WP, NCP, CPGB, CPB, SLP, ISG and the SEP all participate in elections and are thus reformist. If you are a revolutionary it doesn't leave you with much choice. The only Trotskyist groups that have a revolutionary position are the RCG and the Spartacus League. You also have the hardline pro-Albanian Stalinists like the RCPB(ML) and the CL-UK (Communist League UK).

If you cannot find your party of choice, then try and persuade a few of your comrades in the SWP who have the same dissatisfaction with you to form your own party. I am thinking about setting up my own party and Im sure many others are too.

Whatever choice you make I wish you all the best.

[Kez]

whatever you do, dont start your own party,

im not taking the piss or anything but you or i dont have the experience or theory to start a party, enver mind the funds and ways in logistics to have a party, its an anal idea. I know this as i started my own youth group.

Secondly, Stonerboi, you forgot to mention the Socialist Appeal tendency, which is a revolutionary party and a trotskyist one at that, and has at its core the founders of 2 most successful revolutionary groups in britian, that of the RCP and the Militant tendency

Everyday we say there are too many parties, and now your suggesting to form a new one? what the fuck

however, i would agree in that you should get as many SWPers out with you as possible, and show them what a corrupt and opportunist party they are in.

[ernestolynch]

While you middle-class Liberals, sorry, Trotskyites jump from sect to sect and from cult to cult, the working class of Britain look on with bemusement.

Trotskyism's dead. Look at the SA results. Look at the SWP in Birmingham. While you play musical chairs the BNP is getting stronger because the Left has let the w/c down.

Join whatever 'party' you want, my friend, no-one will notice.

[stonerboi]

Whatever you do DON'T join the Socialist Appeal! They are affiliated to the Labour Party.

Taverresh Kamo, how can you lecture others whilst being a paid up member of the Labour Party? The party/goverment that you support and belong to is more right-wing than Thathcer (Being more to the right than Thatcher is near impossible but Labour under their 'dear leader' Blair have done it!)

As long as you belong to a party which is responsible for:

* Privitising the NHS and education (foundation hospitals and schools).

* Abolition of most civil liberties, trial by jury, right to direct action and introducing the most oppresive 'national security' laws in history and turning the UK into a police state that would make Hitler proud!

* Having the most racist immigration policy and blaming societies ills along with the right-wing press on immigrants.

* Allowing all media outlets to be devoured by Newscorp (Rupert Murdoch). Its a simple fact that the Blair/Labour government feels more at home with the far-right media of the SUN and DAILY MAIL than it does with moderate social-democratic trade unions.

* Failing to renationlise any of the industries sold of in the 1980s and 90s. Despite the railways being in complete shit they continue to allow the private sectore a leading role in the rail service.

* A government that has NEVER sought to change the tax system for the benefit of lower income people. VAT is unfair as it affects the poor yet Labour does NOTHING. Corporate tax has been CUT under Labour so businessmen now pay the lowest rate of tax ever, all thanks to a Labour government. Has Labour even thought of progressive taxation? NO it hasn't and it NEVER will!

* Under Labour child poverty, homelessness and destitution have all gone up, just ask any charity or NGO about that! Thanks to Labour there is now an even Bigger gap between the rich and poor than in the mid-90s.

* Since Labour took office we have had two major wars, Kosovo and Iraq and many smaller ones in West Africa and the former Yugoslavia.

* Labour has given us the most pro-US government and is most supportive of the far-right christain fundamentalist republican Bush government. It is alowing the US unfettered access to the UK for its missiles and military bases. It is allowing the UK to be used as a cannon fodder for the US's 'National Missilse Defence' otherwise known as 'son of starwars'. Anyone who makes an anti-war demo outside these bases is beaten up and led away by those fascist pigs (police) that are backed to the hilt by Blunkett.

* The Labour government parrot the same shite as the US of allowing Isreal to do what it wants in Palestine, which is usually killing 10 year old children with armoured cars made in the UK.

So Tavereesh this is the recored of YOUR party and government!

Why on earth do you pretend to be socialist?

Misleading others into joining your pathetic and stupid little sect ('Socialist' Appeal.)

People like you and organisations like the 'Socialist' Appeal are in my opinion WORSE than say the Tories. You may ask why, well here is my answer!

Both the Tories and social-democratic reformists inside the Labour party, often called the Labour 'left', are enemies of the working class and anyone who is hard done by capitalism.

Yet the Tories, evil as they are, at least make no bones about what they stand for and whose side of the class struggle they are on.

You and the likes of the 'Socialist' Appeal pretend to be on the side of the workers and the people yet you tie them to the capitalist system by saying they should simply change it a little rather than get rid of capitalism (which all TRUE socialists and communists fight for). Your solutions are nothing but reformist social democracy.

Well social democracy was a complete failure and I along with many other people do NOT want to go back to the days of 'old Labour'!

What we as socialists and communists want is the TOTAL destruction of capitalism through revolution.

Anyone who DOESN'T agree with that is NOT a socialist/communist and should just shut the fuck up!

Social Democracy has been given too much time/effort and in the end it had proven to everyone that it was not woth it!

I may have my disagreements with the SWP, but at least Sandanista belong to a organistation that at least used to be revolutionary.

Tavereesh, until you leave that pathetic shit little organisation that you call the 'Socialist' (whats socialist about it anyways) Appeal, don't lecture others on what party to join, because by being in the 'Socialist' Appeal, you obviously lack the sound mind and judgement to advise other on what to do!

[Kez]

oh dear...

so much stuff to correct you on...

"Misleading others into joining your pathetic and stupid little sect ('Socialist' Appeal.)"
Do you know what a sect is?
we are the only non-sect group operating on the left as we are the ONLY party directly connected with the masses who are in the LP and the unions.
While real sects start new unions and new parties we stay and fight, and are gradually making progress (see the many bootings of blairites in the unions). if you already didnt know, the socialist appeal is the continuation of militant, the only revolutionary group who has had any chance of revolution within last 50 years. Please read up on a group before you use your childish insults.

"You and the likes of the 'Socialist' Appeal pretend to be on the side of the workers and the people yet you tie them to the capitalist system by saying they should simply change it a little rather than get rid of capitalism (which all TRUE socialists and communists fight for). Your solutions are nothing but reformist social democracy. "

well, actually, had you read any of our historical analyis (see The Unbroken Thread (http://www.marxist.com/TUT)) you will see how we have attacked all reformist groups for their reformist attitude since the French CP after the war onwards.
I actually dont see how we are reformist, since we call for the overthrow of capitalism, infact there are very few articles which we have that dont explicitly call for this....

"Anyone who DOESN'T agree with that is NOT a socialist/communist and should just shut the fuck up!"
A very mature, well thought out argument. Maybe your blood still has the traditions of the SWP with an attituded like that...

"Social Democracy has been given too much time/effort and in the end it had proven to everyone that it was not woth it!

I may have my disagreements with the SWP, but at least Sandanista belong to a organistation that at least used to be revolutionary.

Tavereesh, until you leave that pathetic shit little organisation that you call the 'Socialist' (whats socialist about it anyways) Appeal, don't lecture others on what party to join, because by being in the 'Socialist' Appeal, you obviously lack the sound mind and judgement to advise other on what to do!"

On the subject of the Social Democrats, if this is where the masses are, we should get to the advanced layers and show them the bankrupt capitalist system and show the need for overthrow. But in your case, why do that when you can sit at your computer and shout abuse and get the revolution going from a PC...Wherever the masses are, we must enter and get teh most advanced layers out.

SWP are a disgrace and sandista i believe has come to realise this. They were infact never a revolutionary part, and a theoretically bankrupt undemocratic party.

finally, i dont think i lecture anyone, in anycase ive told Sandista what other groups he should check out and see what theyre like, other than the one i am a member of.

I think what you lack is simple....a mind which can hold a simple argument without slurring into abuse and irrelevant nonsense. In the future please check out what your about to hurl insults at.

[Sandanista]

Wtf are u on about stoner boi???????

The idea of the socialist appeal is to build up the advanced working class via the trade union which are affiliated to labour. After a sizeable number of ppl enter the SA they will split from Labour and challenge them at elections.

I don't personally subscribe to this theory yet but at least theres an element of pragmatism to it, and its a better idea than most on the left have.

[ernestolynch]

Do you know what a sect is?
we are the only non-sect group operating on the left as we are the ONLY party directly connected with the masses

Excuse me - I had to pick myself up off the floor. Are you Heiko Khoo in diguise? If you believe larging it at Speakers Corner every weekend (admittedly quite well) to be 'connected to the masses' then you truly are the most out-of-it Trot I have come across. Even more than the Posadists.


if you already didnt know, the socialist appeal is the continuation of militant, the only revolutionary group who has had any chance of revolution within last 50 years. Please read up on a group before you use your childish insults.

In case readers get confused, our Trockist chum is referring not to the Militant Tendency, who ran Liverpool and Coventry councils and became the Socialist Party, but 'The Militant Group' formed in 1938. This miniscule sect spawned a split-off group (as Trot sects do) called the Workers International League led by Jock Haston and Gerry Healey. In 1944 the WIL renamed itself the Revolutionary Communist Party. This was dissolved in 1951 and its members entered the Labour Party. This is not to be confused with the RCP of the 1980s, which is a split from the SWP.

Anyway - I could go on, but the plain fact about British Trotskyism and Cliffism is that it's all based around the dinner parties of wealthy Hampstead/Islington types such as Healey, Grant, Redgraves, Thornett etc. They have an argument over some obscure paragraph in a Trot book and they storm off and form another bloody party!

Small wonder they are known as the 57 Varieties of Trotskyism!! :lol:

PS - Please enlighten me as to when a Trot group led the country close to revolution? I really, truly am intrigued.

[Ian]

I would definately leave the SWP if you feel uncomfortable in it, it's not that big a deal!

But leaving to join another party may offend some people, do it quietly, by that I mean don't run around at a national conference yelling "I'm joining _______! You opportunist reformists!", however comical it may seem.

Ernestolynch, what's your problem with Posadists?! :angry: ;) Juan was a brilliant man, I mean appealing to China to destroy the world, man that is pure gold! But of course, about your signature, if British Trotskyism is dead, what the hell is stalinism? A pile of assorted bones? RCPB(ML) for example looks like a pile of old loons who sing songs about Hardial Bains, that's about as revolutionary as the Labour Party to me, now of course you will launch it how I am being ultra-leftist... great :D :trotski:

[stonerboi]

On the subject of the Social Democrats, if this is where the masses are, we should get to the advanced layers and show them the bankrupt capitalist system and show the need for overthrow.[QUOTE]

Kamo, you may be shocked to hear this but I agree with you there. The agreemnet ends however on the different ways of getting there.

I don't in this day and age see how a group like the Socialist Apppeal can actually agitate workers and people against the capitalist system from WITHIN the LP.

I think it is near immposisble for social-democrats (George Galloway, Jeremy Corbin, Tim Dayell etc...) to EVER reclaim the LP, let alone reclaiming the LP to a revolutionary Marxist position.

The internal stucture of the LP is not democratic to ever allow it's membership to ever get a say in the formation of LP leadership or policy.

[QUOTE]we are the only non-sect group operating on the left as we are the ONLY party directly connected with the masses who are in the LP and the unions.

Whilst the unions do have a mass base, the same CANNOT be said for the LP! LP membership is actually DECLINING and is now at around 200,000 people or less, a drop in 50% within the last decade. This is not meant to be some boast, because I will admit the vast majority (95%) of those who have already left the LP have not joined another party but have become detached from politics.

Besides how do you expect to reclaim the LP?

Local LP associations have no power and thus they are uselless to ever bring about a change in the LP.

Trade unions are never going to have the power they once did for the simple reason that they have had a lot of their legal protections taken away by tory anti-union laws and the failure of this LP government to do anything about it!

[QUOTE]we stay and fight, and are gradually making progress (see the many bootings of blairites in the unions).[QUOTE]

Well I think its a mistake for the workers to put ALL their faith into trade union g-s like Crow and Gilchrist. The simple reason being that trade uion leaders have through history that they put their own posistion fist before that of the workers.

Don't get me wrong, trade unions are all the workers have at the moment, but the workers must organsie themselves and not rely on a single person to do it for them. Look at the failure of the FBU strike, because the FBU leadership backed downed against the wishes of the firefighters.

The way forward here is 'wildcat' strikes which would challenge the anit-uinon laws and put real pressure on the government and union leaders.

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 12:28 PM
[QUOTE]On the subject of the Social Democrats, if this is where the masses are, we should get to the advanced layers and show them the bankrupt capitalist system and show the need for overthrow.[QUOTE]

Kamo, you may be shocked to hear this but I agree with you there. The agreemnet ends however on the different ways of getting there.

I don't in this day and age see how a group like the Socialist Apppeal can actually agitate workers and people against the capitalist system from WITHIN the LP.

I think it is near immposisble for social-democrats (George Galloway, Jeremy Corbin, Tim Dayell etc...) to EVER reclaim the LP, let alone reclaiming the LP to a revolutionary Marxist position.

The internal stucture of the LP is not democratic to ever allow it's membership to ever get a say in the formation of LP leadership or policy.

[QUOTE]we are the only non-sect group operating on the left as we are the ONLY party directly connected with the masses who are in the LP and the unions.

Whilst the unions do have a mass base, the same CANNOT be said for the LP! LP membership is actually DECLINING and is now at around 200,000 people or less, a drop in 50% within the last decade. This is not meant to be some boast, because I will admit the vast majority (95%) of those who have already left the LP have not joined another party but have become detached from politics.

Besides how do you expect to reclaim the LP?

Local LP associations have no power and thus they are uselless to ever bring about a change in the LP.

Trade unions are never going to have the power they once did for the simple reason that they have had a lot of their legal protections taken away by tory anti-union laws and the failure of this LP government to do anything about it!


we stay and fight, and are gradually making progress (see the many bootings of blairites in the unions).[QUOTE]

Well I think its a mistake for the workers to put ALL their faith into trade union g-s like Crow and Gilchrist. The simple reason being that trade uion leaders have through history that they put their own posistion fist before that of the workers.

Don't get me wrong, trade unions are all the workers have at the moment, but the workers must organsie themselves and not rely on a single person to do it for them. Look at the failure of the FBU strike, because the FBU leadership backed downed against the wishes of the firefighters.

The way forward here is 'wildcat' strikes which would challenge the anit-uinon laws and put real pressure on the government and union leaders.

Please read the whole post before making incorrect posts

to asnwer the stalinik,

you are wrong again, and i was refering to the Militant Tendency, which had the leadershuip of the RCP. again it seems you seem to believe "why let facts ruin a good story"

I dont get what your speakers corner comment had to do with anything...if you knew what we did you wouldnt make such a simple mistake.

Sandista, in your post you state that SA challenge Labour once we split off through eleections, this is not true. After a possible split, then we fight for overthrow of capitalism (including its tools)

Now, onto stonerboi,

You dont see how, because you dont know and dont wish to see how we agitate. for example, during FBU strikes, many SA agitators went to pickets, and talked about how a) Gilchirst is nice and left, but what you needd is a socialist b) how to enter your local labour meetings, bootout the jackass blairite, and install a socialist to represent the areas views. Simple as that. I guess you didnt know that...which would explain the incorreect information youve been posting.

George Galloway is not a social dedmocrat, he is a loony twat, and he isnt even considered as a person who could reclaim the party. Your post suggest were trying to get labour to become marxist revolutionary. It isnt. Our aim is to get to the advanced section of the masses in the LP and those who attend LP meetings. If this means complete takeover of the LP, so be it. However, more than likely it will mean getting enough members splitting off, then armed with so many advanced workers, fight for revolution. Had you read mmy previous posts you would uunderstand...

The internal structure still allows blairites to be booted off very easily. EG if party head doesnt like the selected candidate in your constituency, tough, local party members have constitutional right to over ride party head. Unions have 33% of the vote in policy making etc etc

The make up of the LP is still working class, and we urge other working class members to join LP in order to acheive our goals, and make it easier to boot the hijacking blairites.

on how to reclaim ive already stated, and how local LP members still have power

On the question of faith in uunion leaders, as ive stated, we agitate for socialist leaders, not soft "left" ones such as gilchrist who are not enough

Although wildcat strikes are good as a reaction, they quickly burnout the workers, and only ultra left adventurism would lead one to beleive they are the way forward. If half the energy put into wildcat actionw as put into booting out the union head would be much much more effective. AS the union leader has the organisational power, and importantly the financial purse to fight for the workers.

[stonerboi]

Kamo, so what your saying is that upon recruiting enough LP members to the Socialist Appeal you will then break away to form a new revolutionary workers party?

How many LP members do you intend to have in the Socialist Appeal before you break away or are you going to leave the LP over some major issue like some war in the near future which will obviously have Blair's backing.

Also will the Socialist Appeal stick with the LP as a matter of principle or is it going to leave/give up on the LP if the LP moves further to the right, esp. under Blair?

So many others in the past have tried 'entrism' and have failed. Gerry Healy, before he set up the WRP tried to use the LP of marxism under the name of 'the Club' and later on the Socialist Labour League (SLL). Both attempts ended in failure and so he went on to form his own WRP. Then we have had the Militant, who after two decades of fighting for socialism in the LP saw it couldn't be done and left to form the present day Socialist Party (SP). Tariq Ali and his International Marxist Group (IMG) also tried entrism in the 1980s and has so far not produced any results. These are just some of the historical examples of entrism and its failures. It must also be taken into account that these attempts at entrism took place in the era of 'old' Labour. This was when the LP was not socialist, but at least a little bit more left-wing, yet now you are doing entrism in a far more openly right-wing and reactionary LP.

You will have a tough time telling workers and firefighters to join the party which attacks their unions and tells them to accept misreable living standards whilst the LP leadership live the life of the wealthy elite.

During the firefighters strike, so many firefighters said they will NEVER vote LP again. How do you tell these people to support the LP Kamo?

What you envision is near impposible in most peoples eyes and so it is not going to attract any more support.

There is also the context of todays youth who have become more radicalised than ever over the anti-war movement and the anti-globalisation movement. Todays youth have NO respect for any of the established parties (Lib-Dems, Tories and LP).

I can tell you now that you will have no luck going up to youth and telling them to join a party which has forced them to pay extortionate amounts of money for their university education and a party which never listens to them and takes their views into account.

People are no longer voting and supporting the old parties because they have nothing to offer, LP included. Todays LP is not a mass party as the LP has its biggest problems with membership and voting in the poor working class districts like Sheffield and Cardiff. You have still to make a reply to the fact that LP membership is falling very fast.

The simple fact is that the LP is losing its grip in the working class and poor areas of the country. This is not a bad thing however, it is a VERY GOOD thing and I hope it continues because the workers now are leaving the social-democratic concept and its institution, the LP in droves. This leaves open the way for revolutionary socialist politics to help the working class organise to their eventual path to power.

However, we socialists who want the workers to break from the LP must act properly, because if we don't fill the vacum the workers will be left powerless and will either be apolitical or worse got the likes of the BNP/NF.

[Kez]

"Kamo, so what your saying is that upon recruiting enough LP members to the Socialist Appeal you will then break away to form a new revolutionary workers party?"
-This is an option, like i said, were there to get the advanced workers, if this means the right wing splitting and leaving us with the name LP and having revoltuionary marxist then yes, or it could mean we can split when we have sizeable numbers. Depends on the situation, it is an organisational issue, and therefore one must be as flexible as possible

"How many LP members do you intend to have in the Socialist Appeal before you break away or are you going to leave the LP over some major issue like some war in the near future which will obviously have Blair's backing."
-The major issue will be marxism, where we split because we want marxism, and the right wing become irrelevant.
-The numbers needed is irrelevant, its the timing of whether with X number of people we can launnch revoltuion.

"Also will the Socialist Appeal stick with the LP as a matter of principle or is it going to leave/give up on the LP if the LP moves further to the right, esp. under Blair?"
-We stay with masses, but this doesnt stop us critisizing Blairism and capitalism, cheeck out our journals. The last three i think have front pages with Blair on it, and how hes a twat etc etc

On Healy, he joined at the wrong time, and left at the wrong time, i give u exact details when i get my book back from a comrade.

"You will have a tough time telling workers and firefighters to join the party which attacks their unions and tells them to accept misreable living standards whilst the LP leadership live the life of the wealthy elite."
-Bolsheviks dont quit. Because its tough doesnt mean i quit. If its right it must be done. In any case i didnt find it hard at all. Just needd patient explaination...

"What you envision is near impposible in most peoples eyes and so it is not going to attract any more support."
- So is revolution to many, doesnt mean we stop does it? you know why? because we know we are right and we have facts and history to prove it.

People are not losing hope with established parties BECAUSE theyre establoshed parties, rather that the parties are full of shit at the moment. However, the moment that economic crisis tightens, the masses ALWAYS return to the establisheed parties, in this case Labour

On the issue of the youth, i am a member of the youth, and all the youth im in contact with and have joined us have no problems at all....In fact, there seems to be a trend here. It seems your saying things are difficult, when you havent even tried eg have you tried talking to a youth about what Socialist Appeal stands for and our ideas and organisational methods? no, so it really doesnt make sense for you to say "its hard this, its impossible that"

The LP isnt loosing its grip, everything is relative. It would be idiotic to say that labour has same working class support as did 10 years ago, but you make it as though that no working class person ever votes Labour again. like i sed, in times of crisis, masses return to the mass workers party, ie labour.
Also, look how well the socialist "alliance" is doing, worse than BNP, at a time when theyre supposed to be doing well while blair is fucking up the workers, and theyre "leaving in droves"

"This leaves open the way for revolutionary socialist politics to help the working class organise to their eventual path to power."
-awww, how romantic

[Morpheus]

If the SWP lacks democracy then you should leave it. It's bad enough to have a boss at work, we don't need bosses in our activist organizations. I have some disagreements with the World Socialist Movement, which the SPGB is affiliated with, but they're better than the SWP. You don't have to join any party at all. If you want you can get together with other people who have similar beliefs (perhaps also dissatisified with the SWP) and form a small non-party group. There's a good marxist critique of the party at http://www.geocities.com/~johngray/panparty.htm

[Sandanista]

The SPGB im referring to isnt affiliated to World Socialism, its the split from them, www.spgb.org.uk